Talk:Ecgberht, King of Wessex

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Image

"The image of Egbert is an imaginary portrait drawn by an unknown artist" - that's pretty poor, and whoever wrote the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica was clearly out of his depth. Is there any case for retaining the image, given that (a) we don't know whose likeness it presents and (b) we don't know who carved it? Granted, the chances of an alternative image arising are very small. -Ashley Pomeroy 10:58, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Keep it; it's virtually worthless in practical terms, but people like illustrations. I don't know if we could find anything better to use. Everyking 11:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd drop the pic myself - we have lots of pics already, people can cope without having one here. The imaginary pic is also misleading in that he certainly didn't wear a spiky crown, or a tunic of a type that wouldn't be developed until hundreds of years later, etc. Don't we have any of Egbert's coins to use instead? Even one with just a name would be better. What about charters? Stan 13:49, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think it should stay cause it looks pretty nice,and it reminds me of my english hertitage,.-Agent00829th December 2007 AD,12:07 AM. —Preceding comment was added at 00:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Alfred was NOT King of England

Alfred was not the first person to receive title of King of England. That was Athelstan. Alfred was the self-styled 'King of the Anglo-Saxons.'White43 13:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

In addition to this - who exactly 'considered' him the first King of England? That's a weasel statement. The title King of England began with Athelstan. White43 13:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the intended reference is to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which did add Egbert to Bede's list of bretwaldas. The "bretwalda" article states clearly that this was not a contemporary title. However, the ASC's addition of Egbert is worth mentioning in this article, though I agree the phrasing you removed was poor. It's certainly a reference one runs into in history books, so I think it should be covered here. Mike Christie (talk) 14:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Egbert was styled as King of the English (rex Anglorum) (although this source - http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=get&type=charter&id=271 - translates it as 'King of England') in a charter from the year 823, although admittedly it's not the only occasion where King of the English/of England is claimed by powerful Anglo-Saxon kings (cf. most charters by Offa of Mercia).

Deaþe gecweald 11:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Statements needing sources

These are notes to myself, unless someone else can find refs for this. I should be able to deal with these later in May, when I have some additional refs to hand. Mike Christie (talk) 22:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

"Egbert ravaged the whole of the territories of the West Welsh, which probably at this time did not include much more than Cornwall; it is probably from his reign that Cornwall can be considered subject to Wessex." This is not in the ASC and I can't find it referenced anywhere else. Mike Christie (talk) 22:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Kirby says that Aethelwulf was established as a king of the southeastern provinces. The two charters he cites, S 280 and S 286, don't seem to mention anything but Kent, so I'd like to get some other reference for Surrey and Sussex. Mike Christie (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I took out "The East Anglians acknowledged Egbert as overlord," referring to the aftermath of Ellendun. This may only have referred to the East Angles request for protection, which is already covered; if it's more than that it needs a source. Mike Christie (talk) 20:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Bones

I took out the paragraph on Egbert's burial and bones. I'd contacted another editor, qp10qp, to see if they had a source for this; I'd been told by the editor who added it, Avram Fawcett, that they got it from Hilliam's Kings, Queens, Bones and Bastards. Here's qp10qp's response:

First the good news: I found the book, and the ref is: David Hilliam, Kings, Queens, Bones and Bastards: Who's Who in the English Monarchy from Egbert to Elizabeth II, Sutton, pp. 114 (photos with caption), 180–183. ISBN 0750935537. The bad news is that, in my opinion, it's not the sort of book a good Misplaced Pages article should be referencing—utterly unacademic and credulous. The strand of Misplaced Pages policy I'd use to reject it would be the advice to use the "best sources" (verifiability by a published source being only a threshold). I found a small few other references to this, mostly in similarly "not best" sources". The closest I could come to a ref from a relatively usable source was in the Oxford Illustrated History of the British Monarchy, by John Cannon and Ralph A. Griffiths, Oxford University Press, 2000, p. 656, ISBN 0192893289: "The bones of all these monarchs were placed in mortuary chests in 1525 and are still in the choir. Four of the six chests were destroyed in the Civil War and the bones scattered around the Cathedral. These were replaced in new chests in 1661" (they say nothing more specific: Ecgbert is not named, but I assume he is one of the monarchs). Some nineteenth-century books on Google Books (for example, this one) give details about the contents of the chests, but the absence of this information from modern books is cause for grave suspicion. One is anyway addressing a series of unlikelihoods, the first being that the bones are those of the Anglo-Saxon kings at all, given the great passage of time. The fact that the bones are incomplete, muddled, and unidentifiable may owe as much to damage and loss before being disinterred as to any Civil War soldiers. They had also been re-chested and labelled in 1525: how likely are those 1525 labels to be correct? Another layer of difficulty arises from the bias of Restoration accounts of the Civil War. One also wonders what happened to the bones between being scattered (if indeed they had been) and being reburied in 1661 after the Restoration. Nevertheless, there is certainly material to be found that can go in the article: an Ecgbert chest with an inscription undoubtedly exists, and that's worth a mention in itself, of course, without any need to presume its genuineness. My suggestion would be to stick as closely as you can to how the best Anglo-Saxon historians comment on Ecgbert's death and burial. They know the game far better than the authors of illustrated histories for the general public; what they leave out, we should leave out, I believe.qp10qp 13:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree and have cut it till a reference can be found. It sounds like a reference can and should be found for the existence of a chest labelled with Egbert's name in the cathedral; I haven't found one yet but will add something on that when I do. Mike Christie (talk) 10:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There are photos of it at unusable sites online, but nothing on Commons, unfortunately. I'll try and take a shot of it next time I'm up that way, though it appears to be positioned rather high up. It looks about as Anglo-Saxon as my nan's tea caddy.qp10qp 12:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Cornish place names

On this, I really don't think Yorke knows what she is talking about ("western Cornwall is the only area in which British place-names are now predominant"). I castigated Stenton for not getting out more, and now I must urge Barbara to visit Cornwall, or at least look at an Ordnance Survey map. Glancing at the Tintagel area on mine (not that I had to), it is clear that the vast majority of names are still Cornish: Tintagel, Halgabron, Trethevy, Treven, Tregatta, Trebarwith, Treknow, Trewarmett, Trenale, etc. Boscastle is Saxon; not sure about Bossiney. I would add that there are many more Cornish names, not on any maps, known to the locals. The density of Cornish names today is quite striking. I can't really suggest my OS map as a reference; so how about:

"As an even cursory glance at an Ordnance Survey map will show, to the south of the Ottery the names are overwhelmingly Celtic and typical of Cornwall—Trevillion, Tremaine, Hendra, and so on—while to the north they are English or hybrid Celtic-English and reminiscent of those found in adjoining North Devon." Philip Payton, Cornwall: A History, Cornwall Editions, 2004, 68. ISBN 1904880002.

The place names are fascinating, and they tell a story which we cannot interpret. The sharp dividing line means something, but we don't know what. The almost totally Saxon nature of the northern tip of Cornwall (even today people come south from that area for a "proper Cornish evening") implies to me that it was settled by the Saxons whereas the rest of Cornwall was merely administered by them. There is an equivalent oddity over the water in southwest Wales, where Little England Beyond Wales is entirely Saxon and impervious to Welsh-language culture even to this day. That phenomenon tends to be dated post-conquest, but I wouldn't be surprised if Anglo-Saxons had settled there. qp10qp 16:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

On the placenames, I'll fix up the article with the quote you provided; or please feel free to do it if you like -- I am about to leave my computer for at least a few hours. Mike Christie (talk) 12:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've just removed the inaccurate phrase. This is a stopgap edit, and hopefully something can be found to sharpen the point in the future.

It's actually very difficult to make generalisations about Egbert and Cornwall or to connect his invasion with place names. I suspect that the truth is very complex: my instinct is that the Anglo-Saxons may have penetrated lowland Devon and the lowland tip of present-day north Cornwall long before Egbert's and even Ine's time. There are few natural defences, after all. The Celts would have held out among the estuaries and highlands, such as Otmoor and Dartmoor. The fact that there's a belt of mixed Cornish and Saxon names in the area of Cornwall between the Tamar and Bodmin Moor (Liskeard, Milton Abbot) suggests to me that that area was settled much later by Saxons than the northern tip of Cornwall; and the fact that the part of Cornwall behind its natural defences (which is most of it) still has mainly Cornish placenames suggests to me that Celtic culture survived there for many centuries longer than in Devon and the northern tip: my guess about that would be that for a long time the Anglo-Saxons administered rather than settled it, being content to receive tribute, etc. Anglo-Saxon names seem to be either a Saxonisation of Cornish names or signs of religious control. On the latter point, one very probable result of Egbert's victory was that the Roman church took over the Celtic church, leading to the dissemination of Saxon culture through religious centres.

Of course, all this is conjecture, and of no practical use to the article (apart from the religious point, for which there are occasional records), but clear-cut theories of what happened to Cornwall at this time should be treated with caution, I think.qp10qp 13:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Raedburgh

I have cut the paragraph about Redburga. Here's a comment from qp10qp on my talk page about it.

As far as I can make out, the origins of this information are very obscure, stemming back to a medieval manuscript at Trinity College, quoted by W. G. Searle in Anglo-Saxon Bishops, Kings, and Nobles, London, 1899, p 343, as "MS Trin Coll 0xf x". There is no Anglo-Saxon source for Egbert's wife, as far as I can see, and I don't know the date of Searle's manuscript (post-conquest, I guess). Apparently, she is described in the document as regis Francorum sororia—no mention of Charlemagne (could just as well be his successor, Louis). Sororia seems to mean "sister-in-law", in which case, she would not be the sister of the king (regis) but of the king's wife. Once again, I suggest sticking to the material you can find in the best Anglo-Saxon history books, because this stuff is obscure and iffy, to say the least; I would copy the respected historians' way of mentioning this queen, if they mention her.qp10qp 14:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree and have cut it. I can't find any current historian who mentions this. Mike Christie (talk) 03:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability verifiable

Neither can I, and you'd suppose that someone would. The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England doesn't mention any wife of Ecgberht's, nor name the mother of his sons, and has no entry for any Rædburh. In particular, there's no sign of her in Story's Carolingian Connections (at least as viewable on Google books) where she would surely be mentioned if there was any credence at all given to the story. Which leaves the question: what to do with Redburga? Angus McLellan (Talk) 08:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I would think that somewhere some modern historian has assessed the Trinity ms qp mentions, and the possible identification with St. Ida, and has an assessment; fixing up Redburga will probably have to wait till we can find something like that. On Egbert, Angus, you mention "sons", plural; I couldn't see anything in PASE about a second son -- is there any evidence for another son? That would be worth including. Mike Christie (talk) 12:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

(moved from other thread) I suspect that the reason the Trinity manuscript has been re-forgotten is that it isn't actually about Egbert of Wessex at all but some guy in France with a similar name.qp10qp 12:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

(moved from other thread: Mike said) That sounds plausible.

Just the one son, unless the compilers of Ms D, E, and F were better informed than anyone else. They call Æthelstan (son of Æthelwulf according to most) Ecgbert's "other son". I can provide a dictionary citation to the effect that ecg-beorht means "bright blade" or "shining sword" or something similar, but is Ecgberht's name of any significance? Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Swanton is a bit confusing on this. He translates the E text as " son Aethelwulf succeeded . . . and his second son, Athelstan, succeeded to . . ." but then says in a footnote that this clarifies that Athelstan is Aethelwulf's son. I don't think I'll add anything based on this, but I can't say I understand what Swanton means.

On the name -- I like the gloss you added to the etymology, but I'm not convinced it's necessary either. I was going to do the lead last, and had planned to cut that. Since you've glossed it I'll leave it in, unless someone thinks it's a bad idea. Mike Christie (talk) 15:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Alburga

I am doing a pass for citations and am no longer very comfortable with the note on Alburga. She's not mentioned in PASE, and Kirby, Stenton and Yorke, at least, make no mention of her. However, p.91 of "Queen Emma and Queen Edith: Queenship and Women's Power in Eleventh-Century England" by Pauline Stafford (viewable on Google Books) mentions it in passing as a fact. Stafford's an academic at the University of Huddersfield; not the strongest recommendation possible, of course, but she is an academic. However, the passing mention isn't enough to confirm the relationship is given credence generally.

This page quotes Weir, which appears to be "Weir, A. (2002) Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy (Pimlico)" based on the bibiography there. This turns out to be Alison Weir, an excellent popular historian best known for her books on the Wars of the Roses. She's not an academic.

Alburga gets its information from Delaney's "Dictionary of Saints", 2005.

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the information comes from a manuscript called "Chronicon Vilodunense", but I can't recover that link. Searching for that finds this page, which refers in turn to "MS. Cotton, Faustina B III". This page has no description for III, and I can't find more about it at the British Library. So I'm stuck. Any ideas? Mike Christie (talk) 22:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you need to dig any further, because that Stafford page does cover it in the note. I wouldn't say she states it as a fact, as such: she says that it is surprisingly circumstantial for a fifteenth-century forger; but she also refers to Yorke dismissing it as late. Together, I suspect, this amounts to academic-speak for "take it or leave it". I can't find the Yorke reference she gives, but I have found Yorke mentioning it elsewhere. She says: "According to the traditions of Wilton recorded in a fifteenth-century poem (admittedly a far from ideal source) 'Wolstan', the victor of 802, married Ecgbert's sister 'Alburga', and it was for her that Wilton was founded" (Barbara Yorke, "Edward as Ætheling", in Edward the Elder, N. J. Higham and D.H. Hill (eds), Routledge, 2001, p. 36, ISBN 0415214963). Yorke's formulation is an even clearer "take-it-or-leave-it". Whether to take it or leave it as far as this article is concerned is up to you, Mike. My opinion is that as long as the information is couched in terms rather like Yorke's, there’s no harm in placing it in a note, since traditions sometimes have to be inspected as part of the investigation; and even though this source is alarmingly late, religious establishments are extremely conservative and often preserve records or traditions of records to an extraordinary extent. The outside possibility that there may be a grain of truth in this is probably the reason Stafford and Yorke have seen fit to offer it up to the light, albeit gingerly. qp10qp 00:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

That sounds right to me; I'll do something like that this weekend. I totally forgot, in my search, to follow through on the source that's footnoted, which I added myself. It's British History Online, and the first footnote gives the source and a bit more description. Anyway, thanks for the note; I'll catch up with this tomorrow, and I'll use that ref you give. Mike Christie (talk) 01:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Bone verification?

I am confused as to why the section on the Bones has never been verified and replaced, in fact why it was ever thought questionable? The matter of the mortuary chests is accepted by historians, thought the Bones are in disarray and the chests of course don't "look Saxon" because they are eighteenth century. Although the matter on the book which was originally used as a source has been seen as questionable, while I am not inclined to agree, I don't think I have come accross a mention on Ecgbriht that does not mention his final resting place. Ciriii (talk) 17:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think it quite possible that his bones are in the mortuary chests, but I think we should look for a reliable source on this, and unfortunately I haven't been able to find one. As you can see in the section above, qp10qp spent quite a bit of time looking and wasn't able to find anything that referred to it directly.

It would be possible to add a reference to the existence of the chest in the cathedral, since that's not controversial, but it seems odd to do so without saying whether or not the scholarly opinion supports the identification of the bones. Without that we'd just have to put in some phrase such as "claimed to be the bones of Egbert" and I'd like to be more definite if we can find a good source. Mike Christie (talk) 17:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is important to add a reference to the bones, whether we know who is n in them ior not, it is a story attached to the arly saxon kings. I am sure you wouldn't say that "The Priinces in tower" should have no mention of their bones being found just because you couldnt be sure it wasn't them? As the story goes, parliamentary forces plundered the saxon tombs during the civil war. The bones that remained were placed in mortuary tombs that you see today, they have little plaques on the front with the names of who's inside. I cannot honestly believe it is that difficult to find a source considering that the Norman King William II "Rufus" is also inside one of them and it is well recorded, really :) Ciriii (talk) 19:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Genealogy notes

I removed the notes on Egbert's genealogy that were added; I think they're not really very relevant to an article Egbert. If there's an article about the genealogy of the British monarchy, then it might be reasonable to add that sort of information there. Part of the problem is that Egbert is an ancestor of a great many more people than just the British monarchy; and it's the sort of comment one can make about lots of people in royal family trees. If anyone thinks it should be re-added, let's discuss it here. Mike Christie (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

First, about the "great many more people than the British monarchy." It is true that some of his descendants later ruled other countries, particularly Scotland. But they are a tangential feature at best; he doesn't control anyplace as completely as England.

Next, the idea that you could say this about "lots of people." I disagree that a)this statement is true, and b)this statement is relevant. It's not relevant because you could also say about "lots of people" that they were king of England...yet all their articles do in fact say so. This is an interesting fact about Egbert, and belongs in the article whether or not the fact is also true of others. Now, as to the truth of it being shared by many others...it is not. It is shared by exactly one other monarch, Egbert's son Ethelwulf. Anyway, how can a 68-person long ruling succession that's only broken by one 100-year period of eight people (it said nine before, but turns out that Harold Godwinson was Egbert's descendant; see House of Wessex family tree) not be notable!? William the Conqueror's page notes that all English/British monarchs since are his descendants. Should that be taken out as well, since he also begat the Scottish line and since the same could be said of Henry I, Matilda, Henry II, John, Henry III, Edwards I, II, and III, and a whole bunch more, later people? Obviously someone thought that William I, as the *first* of these, was notable. For what it's worth, I think the break and restoration of Egbert's line makes it a much more interesting case than any of these people.

Basically, I'm a little miffed that you took this out. It definitely doesn't take anything away from the article, and removing it on such thin ground makes it look a bit like you consider this article your personal fief.

Well, I was worried about that too, so before I removed it I went to another editor who is knowledgeable about this period, and asked him whether he agreed. Here is the question I asked, and here is his response. So I hope you'll believe that I didn't remove it out of a sense of ownership.

There are others who have this article on their watchlist. Let's leave this a week or so and see if anyone else comments; I'm happy to go with the consensus, though as I said I don't think it's the sort of information that is worth including. Mike Christie (talk) 17:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Family paragraph

Per a recent edit summary questioning it: the paragraph was added in this edit. I felt sure I had seen something on a talk page -- mine or the article's -- about the edits, but can't find that now. Anyway, it was sourced, though not to someone I'd regard as a specialist. I felt that if I revered I'd be acting too much as though the article was mine, so I just left it, hoping to find a better secondary source that discusses his family at some future point. Mike Christie (talk) 19:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, so far as Æthelstan son of Ecgberht goes, that's wrong but explicable: see Swanton, ASC, p. 63, note 13. Saint Eadgyth of Polesworth is said to be Æthelwulf's sister by Geoffrey of Burton in his life of Saint Modwenna and similar post-Conquest stuff. Barbara Yorke (Nunneries and the Anglo-Saxon Royal Houses) reckons she was a Mercian. The Thacker paper on saints in Midland History is referred to by Yorke. Cheers! Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

So, how about this? The number of Egbert's children is uncertain. Æthelwulf, who succeeded Egbert, having governed as Subregulus of ], ], ] and ], was his son. Some versions of the ''Anglo-Saxon Chronicle'' call ] Egbert's son, but he was rather Egbert's grandson.<ref>Swanton, ''Anglo-Saxon Chronicle'', p. 63, note 11. This mistake is accepted at face value in some popular works.</ref> A number of writers after the ] make Saint Edith (Eadgyth) of ] a daughter of Egbert, but this is doubtful.<ref>Yorke, ''Nunneries and the Anglo-Saxon Royal Houses'', p. 39, note 58, suggests Edith was Mercian princess; see also Thacker, "Kings, Saints and Monasteries", p. 19. Again, the claim that Edith was Egbert's daughter is repeated in some popular works.</ref> Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This would replace the part of the existing paragraph starting "Egbert had three children", right? I like it. One suggestion would be to add a mention of the Alison Weir book to the footnote referring to popular works. Mike Christie (talk) 15:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Portrait vs. manuscript image

I'd prefer to reinstate the image of Egbert's name from the ASC MS unless there are objections. The portrait has no historic value and no pretensions to be accurate, whereas the MS image is historically important. Mike Christie (talk) 07:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. The same editor removed a portrait coin of Offa from List of English monarchs and replaced that with an ms. image. Equally misguided I feel. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I reverted.

You know, I think at some point it would be good to have a single unified discussion of all the "list" articles and templates for monarchs of the UK/Britain/British Isles/whatever, and the constituent kingdoms. I don't know if we could get enough knowledgeable editors together to get a sustainable consensus, but it would be nice to have consistency. There are multiple issues -- who gets to be called a monarch of England? What about the marginal boundary cases, such as Ceolwald -- do they go into the templates? What's the status of names such as "British Isles"? Which articles are dabs and which are lists? Which get eliminated as duplicates? Should they all have the same or similar formats? Should they be organized chronologically or geographically, where there's a choice? It's a set of decisions that would be made in a print encyclopedia by an editor with responsibility for the overall area, in order to impose consistency, avoid duplication of effort, and provide guidelines for the contributor.

To your point on Offa: I tend to avoid the list articles just because there's no clear definition of how they should be structured. I think that MS picture substituted for the coin isn't the best idea, but it's not as bad as the EB 1911 pics used elsewhere in that article. Mike Christie (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes by Agricolae

The changes diff here earlier today by Agricolae seem reasonable, but I'm just leaving this note here that the sources need to be rechecked. The changes add some specific assertions that look right (e.g. which versions of the ASC say what), but it's not clear that the sources already cited support those statements. No new sources were added, which is why I think a check needs to be made.

I'll also leave a note with Agricolae asking if he has sources that support the additions, in case he's able to add them himself. Mike Christie (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agricolae has added refs so we're OK now. At least one ref is quite old, though; it would be worth checking through those paras for modern sources if they exist. Mike Christie (talk) 19:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Redirection

"Eoppa" redirects here; in fact, Eoppa was Egbert's grandfather.

J.Gowers (talk) 21:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

This was the result of a deletion discussion. It was deemed by the consensus that Eoppa was not sufficiently notable to merit his own page. Agricolae (talk) 14:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Dore

Please see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of Dore. Moonraker2 (talk) 01:09, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

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