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Change in voting for Finding of Fact on Mathsci

This finding did not pass when the case was closed, oversight of Courcelles or not. If it had been likely to pass, given the evidence provided, I would have insisted that it be rephrased, to remove the statement about ideological stance. Mathsci (talk) 07:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)further refactoring - with more apologies to Roger Davies and other arbitrators Mathsci (talk) 22:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Which words in particular do you now find so objectionable?  Roger Davies 08:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I also see that two of the evidence sections were overwritten by mistake when I updated the evidence bit of this FoF. It should read: Ferahgo's request statement, Ferahgo's supplementary request statement, New evidence by Ferahgo (April 27th). I'll fix it later.  Roger Davies 08:44, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The words I object to are "whom he perceives as ideological opponents." It would be correct to write, "whom, in his perception, were attempting to game the system through proxy editing." The finding would then be an accurate overall statement, that would not need to be supported by individual diffs. In addition it would take into account the opinions expressed in the three oppose votes. The FoF was put there before arbitrators changed their view on proxy-editing and it would seem reasonable for the finding now to reflect that sea change. I have no objections at all to the first part of the phrase and you can choose some version of the ending which includes the words "proxy-editing" as you see fit. I hope this is agreeable and will help speed matters on. Regards, Mathsci (talk) 09:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

That's an interesting approach, and your grounds for wanting it may well prove persuasive. However, modifying the FOF so radically goes far beyond what we can reasonably do now that the case has closed. I suggest you leave it a day or two (for some of the shellshock to wear off), then request a brief, concise and routine amendment in the usual way. Do include the full current text and full proposed amendment for ease of reference.  Roger Davies 09:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Where is the amount of vote changing post the close allowed quantified, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 10:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments removed {with apologies to Roger]. Please see my response in the note below. Mathsci (talk) 17:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Arbs have a difficult task, but would someone please review this result as it is unreasonable to make a finding against Mathsci without precise diffs that have been highlighted by Arbcom as showing unacceptable behavior under the circumstances. Everyone knows that Mathsci has made pointed comments, but under the circumstances, which of those comments warrant a negative finding? Johnuniq (talk) 07:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• The usual approach is that misconduct by the other party is mitigation not exoneration. If every case had to pass on a guilty party/innocent party basis, nothing would ever pass. FoFs are a consensus view and while arbitrators may agree that broadly the FoF is correct it is only in the very clearest cases that there is unanimity on the diffs.  Roger Davies 08:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• The usual approach is that once the case is closed the case is closed. Why should we pay attention to other usual approaches? Hipocrite (talk) 10:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note: I wrote the following to Roger Davies in private some time prior to the case closing, "I don't particularly mind if I am admonished. What is true and which I openly admit is that I never dropped the matter of proxy editing, although I never pursued any measures actively. I agree that my persistence can be regarded as either a virtue or a vice, particularly when proxy editing is such a grey area. The procedures atarted by Shell Kinney of discussions between arbcom and those suspected of operating proxies have been further elaborated in this case. Those procedures could presumably be delegated to trusted administrators at SPI or AE." That was the view that I expressed when only the admonishment had passed and still applies. That email predated the mix-up on voting on the FoF. I apologize to Roger for any misunderstanding that may have resulted. And yes, I fully agree with the admonishment and with the first half of the findings but not the statement about "ideological opponents". I could equally well have written that message on wiki and have done so now. Indeed most of it I've already said, unless I was expressing myself poorly. So apologies again, Roger. Mathsci (talk) 10:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Case conduct

The conduct of this review has been quite astonishing. We saw a huge amount of evidence added well after the decisions had started; then voting on sanctions against users who were not part of the original case and before they had even been notified that they were added as parties; now we see a party arguing against the finding of fact ostensibly on the grounds that one of the votes was recorded late but actually because they don't like it. Is there any kind of case management going on here, or is this actually intended to be the kind of shambles that it has degenerated into? What a mess! I'm sorry about your trousers (talk) 12:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

By setting up this quasi-courtroom style of hearing cases, the Committee opens itself up to criticims based on the apparent process that was or was not followed, i.e. "why did you make your decisions this way, isn't that out of order?" and the like. I think the Committee would really do itself a favor by scrapping the current system and setting up a different paradigm that focuses on the big picture, the desired end-state, and finding a way to help editors out of their "boxes". Cla68 (talk) 13:43, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note: Amalthea already blocked I'm sorry about your trousers as the sockpuppet of a banned user, although the identification seemed incorrect. Out of the blue in March ISAYT templated Gsonnenf and me for no cause. I left a message on his talk page and that precipitated the block by Amalthea. The previous block as a suspected sockpuppet of Crouch, Swale suggests that the user comes from the UK, which is borne out by the "Private Eye" language used in the unblock request: Some mistake, shurely? I cannot decide whether this might be Mikemikev, since he has created a similarly named account I didn't want to wear purple pants (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), or Echigo mole/A.K.Nole. The cricketing edits in the West Country might suggest Echigo mole/A.K.Nole, who has previously made superficial edits related to the South and West of England. Perhaps a checkuser on the arbitration committee can figure out who it is. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 17:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)