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Non-global

This template includes several articles that are international in scope such as Halal, Jewish cuisine, Immigrant cuisine, and Christmas dishes. Adding them to the American cuisine template is very americentric, and if the template is added to the articles, will clutter them up without offering more context. Remember that e.g. Christmas dishes are found in about a hundred countries around the world, and it would look awful to have a hundred "X cuisine" cluttering up the articleSjö (talk) 08:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC).

It's an American cuisine template, so there's no need for it to represent a global perspective. Also, that template is for articles, not templates. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I can see not including it in Halal and Immigrant cuisine (though the latter is quite obviously American-centered and from that perspective). The template never was added to Jewish cuisine. As for List of Christmas dishes, it's perfectly fine to have it in the American section. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Even articles about American matters need to consider the global perspective. An article about "X in the U.S." that's written as if X is a purely American phenomenon would have a non-global perspective. This template has that when it includes articles with an international scope. When there are articles about e.g. American Christmas dishes or Halal food in the U.S. please do add them to the template, but when the American part of the article content is minimal it doesn't belong there. It's misleading to the readers, and it's insulting for non-americans to see international concepts appropriated as parts of the American culture. For what it's worth, few of the cuisine by country articles have templates, but none of those that I've found (Canada, Britain and Turkey) include ethnic food, festivals or even ingredients that are not specific for the country or typical for the cuisine. Sjö (talk) 21:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to edit the template, then, but don't tag it with {{global}} as that applies only to articles. As for whether it's insulting or not to include something here, people need to not be insulted so easily. The only articles included here are either directly connected or have sections specifically talking about the American cuisine. But, as I said, if you are truly offended by something, discuss it here. Far be it from me to offend you. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Template image

I've removed the image of a hamburger and fries that somebody added to the template, as it was appearing in hundreds of articles that have nothing to do with either hamburgers or fries. While I'm sure there are some Americans in certain isolated areas of the country who think that a hamburger and fries represents the national cuisine, nothing could be farther from the truth. Please do not add it back. Viriditas (talk) 02:05, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but please don't just barge in and make demands. A hamburger and fries are the epitome of what people around the world think of when asked about American food. You can thank McDonald's for that. If you have a suggestion for a better representation of American food, please make it. Just post the links to the pics. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:12, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
No, I'm sorry, but we don't add images or edit articles based on what an editor personally believes. You are free to do research on American cuisine, and cite reliable authors in the relevant field for your opinions, and then to persuade others that your opinion is correct, but you are not free to impose your opinion sans sources on a template used on many different articles. Since you have the burden of proof, we default to no image until there is agreement. Please feel free to propose images for this template in this discussion. Please do not, however, continue to impose an image without it. Viriditas (talk) 06:27, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
First of all please remember bold, revert, and discuss. I restored the image, and we should leave it until a consensus is reached. I personally agree that a burger and fries pretty much are associated with American cuisine despite their origins outside of the United States. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 06:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
We don't add content to Misplaced Pages based on what stereotype you personally believe is correct or not. We add content to Misplaced Pages based on the best, most relevant and authoritative sources in the field. Surely, you read that in this discussion before and after you added unsourced content into a template that appears on many articles. And, unsourced content may be removed at any time. The burden of proof is on the editor adding unsourced content, as I've already pointed out. Without sources, we default to no image. Is that clear, or do you refuse to recognize V and NOR? Viriditas (talk) 07:03, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

According to experts on the history of cuisine in America, if we include an image, it should be of corn. Betty Fussell writes: "Several years ago, many people were trying to answer the question of whether there is such a thing as an American cuisine. As I looked for an answer, it was so apparent that corn was the common thread in everything American. You find in corn the glue of our ethnic diversity" Viriditas (talk) 07:15, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

It is a template, not an article - it doesn't have content, it doesn't need to be cited and it doesn't need to be verified for anything. It is a collection of intra-wiki links to articles that have associated content and that is it. The policies you are citing are for articles, not templates. There are very few quintessentially American dishes, and burgers and fries are the one true American dish that it know globally. While corn, along with potatoes and tomatoes, is a product of the Americas, people do not associate corn with American cuisine per se.
Secondly, you need to step it back. You are engaging in an edit war and have violated the three revert rule. You are ignoring policy (WP:BRD, WP:3R and others), and as an established editor should know better. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
You are mistaken on each and every point. I'll address them in order:
  • We don't normally use sources in templates because templates generally represent noncontroversial content that is already sourced, such as naming conventions for things already in articles, categories, etc. These conventions are most certainly considered "content", and such things do need to be cited if they are challenged. There is no requirement that the citation must appear in the template, although I've seen that happen several times. In this case, the image is part of the information content of the template intended for presentation on related articles. You don't get a "free pass" from verification just because it is a template; that suggestion is laughable. All of our content policies apply to templates, it's just that we rarely have to apply them because templates are supposed to represent already existing sourced content.
  • Your assertion that this is a debate over links is also wrong. We are clearly debating the unsourced inclusion of an image in a template that allegedly best represents American cuisine. I've asked for a source that says that. None has been provided.
  • Your statement that there "are very few quintessentially American dishes" is also wrong, as is your statement that "people do not associate corn with American cuisine". In fact, as every American child learns in school, corn is the one food that best represents our cuisine, and this is supported by every textbook and relevant scholar on the subject of American food history and cuisine. This is also easily sourced, as I have done above. Beyond corn, "the most recognizable American regional cuisine" is Louisiana Creole cuisine and Cajun cuisine. The choice to represent American cuisine with "burgers and fries" is not just absurd, it isn't supported.
  • Your statement that "burgers and fries are the one true American dish" that is known around the world continues to be an unsourced opinion promoting a stereotype. We don't do that on Misplaced Pages, as you've been previously informed. We always deal with sources for such statements, and just because you are making such a statement by including an image in a template, doesn't give you an exemption from our content policies.
  • Your accusation that I have violated the 3RR is clearly false as the edit history demonstrates. Please stick to facts.
  • My removal of an image intended to push an unsourced POV is supported by policy, specifically V. To quote V, "No matter how convinced you are that something is true, do not add it to an article unless it is verifiable." I know you are convinced that "burgers and fries are the one true American dish", but you should be able to find a reliable source for such a statement. Until you do, using Misplaced Pages templates to push POV isn't allowed.
If I missed something, feel free to let me know. Viriditas (talk) 09:56, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Seriously, as long as hot dogs, hamburgers, spaghetti and meatballs are there, I'm happy. :-) --Funandtrvl (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
That's about right, and that's what the United States Department of State basically says in their 2004 publication. However, I don't think a single image is going to work in the heading as it displaces all the lead images. Viriditas (talk) 00:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
If you want to show American Cuisine from a global viewpoint in a single picture, indeed the hamburger is the choice to represent the American Cuisine. Ask a foreigner about American Cuisine and (s)he will come up with McDonald. Sorry. Night of the Big Wind talk 09:01, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
The data shows a steep drop in domestic consumption and production of meat, with growth in restaurants flat while non-hamburger franchises are on the rise. A 2009 poll in the U.S. also shows that, for various reasons, hamburgers are not seen as "more American" than apple pie, hot dogs, bbq, fried chicken, french fries or ice cream. Why would we show any cuisine primarily from a "global viewpoint"? Should we write about Dutch cuisine from the perspective of Tahitians? What you are really talking about is image and influence, and I'm sure there are relevant topics for that discussion, but I'm not sure this is it. Sure, modern fast food has been an American export since 1969, but recent publications say it is now a global phenomenon. Following your logic, I should blame the Dutch for the faulty optics in my Chinese-made telescope. Americans didn't invent fast food (See Cross 2004: "Britain's fish and chips, Vienna's kartoflen, Mexican tacos, Japanese sushi and taco-yaki") but they did improve upon it. Viriditas (talk) 09:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Facts
  • According to the American Meat Institute, the consumption of beef in the U.S. has been in decline since the 1970s, while chicken and turkey consumption has been on the increase. In 2007, per capita beef consumption was 65 pounds (33.2 was hamburger) while Americans consumed 86.5 pounds of chicken and 17.3 pounds of turkey per person. According to 2012 data, beef consumption has dropped as much as 12% per capita since the 2007 numbers were released.
  • The average American directly consumes over 50 pounds of corn per year and more than 1450 pounds in total if you take into account the amount of corn fed to animals that are consumed per capita
  • According to the Encyclopedia of Food and Culture (2003), the early version of the hamburger originated in 15th century Europe, made its way to England in the 18th century, and then Colonial America. It is not a distinctly American phenomenon, but took off after the meat grinder allowed the preparation of ground beef in 1850. Sandwich-style preparation also made its way from England to the U.S. around the same time, but the first hamburger sandwhich wasn't known in the states until at least 1904. The first chains took off in the 1930s, after which it became a national phenomenon in the 1950s post-WWII era. However, today, the Encyclopedia of Food and Culture notes that the growth of hamburger outlets takes place outside the U.S., and "hamburgers are now a global food", no longer a uniquely American cuisine. More importantly, the encyclopedia notes that in the U.S. "hamburgers and fast food have been condemned almost from the beginning" and that "many Americans...consider the hamburger an unhealthy food".
  • In its entry for the "United States", the Encyclopedia of Food and Culture (2003) focuses on twelve types of cuisines unique to a culture, geographical region, and/or historical period unique to the country: African American Foodways, Cajun Cooking, California and the Far West, Ethnic Cuisines, Hawaii, The Middle Atlantic States, The Midwest, New England, Pennsylvania Dutch Food, Pioneer Food, The South, and The Southwest. In a discussion of all the different American foods in these twelve types, the word "hamburger" appears only once, in The Midwest section.
  • Food historian Betty Fussell has made several statements on this topic about the fundamental importance of corn in the U.S. Regarding her work in The Story of Corn (1992), she said, "Several years ago, many people were trying to answer the question of whether there is such a thing as an American cuisine. As I looked for an answer, it was so apparent that corn was the common thread in everything American. You find in corn the glue of our ethnic diversity." However, in her book, Raising Steaks: The Life and Times of American Beef (2008), she also said: ""Bred from both Spanish and British traditions, as well as from both Spanish and British cattle breeds, American beefsteak is more characteristic of our hybrid national identity than apple pie (which came from the English), popcorn (from the Native Americans), or the hamburger (German)...I didn't then realize that American beef had become as much an industrial by-product of corn as ethanol is."
  • Corn is mentioned in 11 of the 12 types of U.S. cuisines in the Encyclopedia of Food and Culture (2003). These include: African American Foodways (maize, corn, cornmeal, corn bread, corn pudding), Cajun Cooking (corn, corn on the cob, corn bread), California and the Far West (table corn), Hawaii (creamed corn, Waimanalo corn), The Middle Atlantic States (cornmeal mush, cornmeal Welsh muffins), The Midwest (corn, cornmeal, corn belt, roasted corn, corn dogs), New England (corn, cornmeal, corn on the cob, cornbread), Pennsylvania Dutch Food (chicken corn soup, cornmeal), Pioneer Food (maize, corn on the cob, cornmeal mush, dried corn, hominy, samp, corn dodgers), The South (corn, corn pone and hominy grits, cornmeal porridge, skillet cornbread, hushpuppy), and The Southwest (corn tortillas, white corn, red corn, blue corn, yellow corn, green corn, tamales, corn husks, hominy, posole).
  • "The United States did not invent fast food. From Britain's fish and chips to Vienna's kartoflen, from Mexican tacos to Japanese sushi and taco-yaki, fast food has existed for centuries. What McDonald's founder Ray Kroc did was to apply the principles of "Fordism" to fast food. He developed a procedure for every work action, specifying exact times for frying, grilling, and toasting, and he demanded absolutely consistent ingredients, dictating even the amount of water in French fries. As even critics admit, McDonald's lowered the cost and increased the speed, consistency, sanitation, and friendliness of eating fast. The export of U.S. fast food dates to 1967, when McDonald's opened a franchise in Canada on the U.S. drive-in model." (Cross 2004) Viriditas (talk) 01:30, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
The reason the image was included is because it is the first thing people think of when you ask them "What food do you think of when you think of American food?". A couple polls mentioned on the US Consulate site for Hong Kong and Macau point this out. People in the States may eat more corn than anything else, but the perception around the world of the quintessential American food is either a hamburger or a hamburger and fries. Like I mentioned in my first post, you can blame McDonald's for that as they've been spreading this as the stereotypical American food for over 50 years. Also, your edit warring will not be tolerated, Veriditas. You have reverted for a third time, and this is your only warning. If you revert it again before a consensus is reached here, you will likely be blocked for ignoring policy (though not by me, since I'm involved in the discussion). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Nihonjoe, please use sources more wisely and with greater care. The source you refer to comes from a primary source, a single 2002 poll conducted online by Harris Interactive. Unlike the 19 Harris Studies archived at the Odum Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, this poll does not seem to be a notable "study", but it did receive popular newspaper coverage on the topic of American patriotism. The wording and word order of the poll question is clearly problematic. The question, "Which one of the following foods do you think of as more typically American than others?" was answered by 2000 people who were enrolled in a program to answer Harris Poll online surveys. They were given seven choices (eight if you count "other") and 18 percent answered "no one food is more typically American than others". This was not a random survey and it was not about food. It was a poll about "how people feel about being American". The way the question was worded and the way the list was presented would make the most diehard vegan breatharian choose "hamburger" as an American symbol, so this poll is basically worthless. More to the point, the poll says "three percent of all adults think that McDonald's is one of the top three symbols of the United States", so your claim about McDonald's is bogus. The kids content you cite, which is hosted by the US Consulate for Hong Kong and Macau, is sourced to the U.S. State Department. There's a great deal of other information also cited by the U.S. State Department in even more recent publications. For example,in 2004, they published this information about American cuisine in their journal, U.S. Society & Values. They write that the "United States is a rich and varied blend of races, religions, and ethnicities, and this diversity is reflected in our cuisine...we have never developed a national cuisine..." In any case, the 2002 poll you cite was replaced by a new poll in 2009 showing a significant drop in the percentage of Americans identifying hamburgers as "more typically American", going from 29% in 2002 to 23% in 2009. In fact, more than 50% polled identify non-hamburger foods as more American. There is a clear downward trend for hamburgers here. More recent polls by Harris Interactive shows that 28% of Americans will eat "American food" while eating out, while 66% will choose non-American cuisine. Clearly, the majority of Americans do not eat burgers when they eat outside the home. Another Harris study published in 2011 notes that "consumer opinion of non-burger restaurants is increasing while the brand equity of most burger joints remains flat". More than 25,000 consumers were surveyed. So what is the bottom line, here? Updating your 2002 source to the most current 2009 figures, we find that 23% of 2,984 adults polled online, chose "hamburgers/cheeseburgers" as a "more typically American" food. 23%! How can that possibly justify including this image here? Viriditas (talk) 00:44, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Why does this template require a picture? Seriously. As it is commonly transcluded top right on associated articles, the box actually contains the first image that most people will see when they land on a page. Why would I want to see a picture of anything except that page's subject there? Placing a picture of a burger and fries there is confusing when it isn't directly related to the subject of that specific article (e.g. Louisiana Creole cuisine... a burger is the first image that appears... bizarre). If you feel you absolutely must have some graphic there something neutral but iconic (crossed knife and fork on a stars-and-stripes plate, for a tongue-in-cheek suggestion) would be a better idea. This isn't about whether "burger and fries" is the first thing may people think of when you say "American cuisine" to them, but whether such an image helps or hinders an article's readability. In the case of this template I think it definitely is a drawback. Pyrope 18:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. This series template was created by User:Nihonjoe on October 1, 2011 after which time the user proceeded to add it to the top of all of the cuisine articles on December 12, 2011, during the start of the winter break, when very few users were active. These series of edits displaced upwards of 50 lead images highlighting unique American cuisine and replaced those lead images with a large image of french fries (from Belgium) and a hamburger (from Germany), adding it to ~56 articles. There does not appear to have been any effort by Nihonjoe to coordinate with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Food and drink about the addition of this template, nor does Misplaced Pages:Navigation templates support his usage. Food articles should have lead images related to the topic, followed by series (navbox templates) related to the parent cultural topic (Culture of California if we are discussing California cuisine, for example), with cuisine topics found in a footer template. Per the MOS on image use in the lead, images should be natural, appropriate representations of the topic and should be what our readers will expect to see and they should be "of least shock value". Can you imagine a food scholar visiting New American cuisine only to find a large image of a burger and fries? This is not just unprofessional and absurd, but as Pyrop observes up above, it detracts from the encyclopedia. Nihonjoe appears to be acting unilaterally in every aspect of this template, from its creation, to its choice of image, and finally, to his placement on 56 articles. At this point, he should take a very large step back and let disinterested editors deal with the problem he's created. Viriditas (talk) 01:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
You make it sound like I tried to sneak the template into all those articles; that's simply not the case. As for when it was done, some of us work in the real world where we don't get things like "winter breaks", so that had nothing to do with it, either. It was just when I found the time to do it. I saw that many other countries/cultures had similar templates, and I thought there were enough American foods to make a similar template. All of the other cuisine templates have a photo at the top of them, so I don't see why this one should be any different.
As there are several other cuisine templates in use all over, I saw no need to coordinate with the food and drink WikiProject on something already commonly in use. As I stated above, I'm fine with using another image if people think something else would be more appropriate, but so far the only thing that's been mentioned is mountains of corn. If people decide on corn (or pumpkin pie, turkey, cranberry sauce, or even cajun gumbo), I'm fine with that. As for acting unilaterally, you certainly did that by coming in here and trying to force your views onto the template, and then edit warring to continue forcing your POV.
As for the placement of the template, it's fine to place it below any images at the top of the articles it's in, or even place it in the See also section in order to keep it in a more appropriate location. It may even be good to do that with all the cuisine templates so they don't interfere with the standard flow of the articles. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Nihonjoe, I don't think you tried to sneak the templates in. It's just that Misplaced Pages has a large student demographic, and you added them during a fairly inactive time, often referred to as "winter break". Other templates certainly exist, but we're talking about this one. The fact of the matter is, we already had a template footer in use, {{Cuisine of the United States}}, which you were perfectly aware of when you created this one to promote hamburgers and fries. You say you are fine with using another image, conveniently sidestepping the fact that two editors have told you that the use of the current image is problematic. Your first response to my concerns was that "a hamburger and fries are the epitome of what people around the world think of when asked about American food". Regardless of whether that is true or not, we don't edit articles based on popular perception, polls, or opinion. We edit articles based on the most authoritative, relevant, and current sources we can find. Yes, a hamburger and fries were, aside from the hot dog, one of the quintessential post-WWII American foods between 1950-1970. However, a lot has changed in American cuisine since that time, and hamburgers have been on a steep decline for 40 years. The fact of the matter is, the American cuisine articles are not best represented by this image, and two editors have explained to you that it is confusing, inappropriate, and hinders readability. I removed the image due to these concerns, and asked you to provide a source supporting it. You found a 2002 poll about American patriotism, not about food. That's just not good enough. Further, you have said that by removing the image I am "forcing" my POV. I am curious, how does one force a POV by removing a POV? Do you even understand what you are saying? By removing the image, I am defaulting to V; challenged, poorly sourced and unsourced content may be removed at any time. This is not a POV, it is best practice. Now, please address these concerns. I will summarize them for you again: 1) Why did you add a header when the articles already had the appropriate, unobtrusive footer? 2) Which reliable source(s) support the inclusion of this image? (Reliable means it should attempt to be authoritative, relevant, and current. It cannot be about a different topic, such as "American patriotism". It must be about American cuisine, preferably from the POV of a food historian/scholar.) 3) Why can't we default to no image? In other words, why do we have to have an image? Do most series navboxes have images? I suspect that they don't. 4) What is the purpose of this template? If it is a series navbox, it should not distract from readability, but enhance it. Does it do this? 5) Per image use policies, we should choose the best image for the topic. If we are talking about the culture of the United States, we wouldn't lead the article with an image of the famous "beer can house". We would find something special and unique that best represents the topic, such as a painting or even a famous Jazz musician, since Jazz music is considered by cultural historians to be one of the most original contributions to American culture. In the same way, we would want a culinary image that conveyed the same idea about American food. To remind you, Nihonjoe, the editor adding content has the burden of proof. So far, you have not met this burden, and in fact, two editors have told you that the image should be removed. Viriditas (talk) 07:44, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
  1. An infobox is not a header, so your question is based on a false assumption. Also, it's not uncommon to have similar infoboxes and footers in an article. I've already explained why I created it, or did you not bother to read that part?
  2. I'm not familiar with any other cuisine template which includes references for the image included at the top. If there is one, please point it out.
  3. I've never said we can't default to no image. I did point out that every single other cuisine template includes an image at the top, and since I based the creation of this template off those other templates, it only stands to reason that it include an image. And, just in case you didn't catch it, every single cuisine template has an image at the top of it. Not just some, or many, or even most; Every. Single. One.
  4. The template has the same purpose as every other cuisine template: to provide easy navigation to topical articles (in this case, American cuisine, as evidence by the title of the template, as well as the content of the template). I agree it shouldn't distract from readability, which is why I suggested that perhaps the best place for this kind of template is in the See also section. What are your thoughts on that?
  5. What, exactly, is a "beer can house"? And how, exactly, does that have anything to do with this particular topic? Please stick to the topic rather than wandering into random discussions of other unrelated topics. Hamburgers and fries are certainly American cuisine. Regardless of the genealogy of those items, America is considered a "melting pot" of cultures, so it's only appropriate that many of its foods are derived from those of other countries. It's certainly not inappropriate to have an image depicting them as an example of a well-known and stereotypical American cuisine item. Your assertions otherwise are just plain off the mark. However, as I've now stated multiple times, I'm open to better suggestions. The image has been in the template since it was created, so it's not like I just went and snuck it in there one day, "adding" it while you were off looking at something else. As for two whole editors expressing their opinions"should be removed", your opinions have no more individual weight than mine, and there is at least one other editor who disagrees with you (no matter how you're trying to besmirch his opinion (a.k.a. "beliefs") below), so it appears we need continue working toward consensus on another image which won't damage your delicate sensibilities. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Joe has pretty much laid out my beliefs on the subject. I agree with his points.--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 05:31, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't know what your "beliefs" are on this subject, nor should they have anything to do with this discussion, since we edit based on evidence not beliefs, but since you raised the issue, I'm curious about your beliefs. As a foodservice professional with almost three decades on the job in the hamburger industry, I'm sure you have extensive knowledge and experience, which explains your singular focus on Burger King, Burger King products, and Burger King legal issues, and your successful efforts at improving those topics. Putting aside any strong beliefs you might have about hamburgers based on your work history, could you explain, in your own words, why we should have an image of a burger and fries in the infobox? I asked Nihonjoe this question, and the best he could do was point me to a poll about "pride in America". (2009 updated version) I'm hoping that a man of your experience has access to better data, preferably focused on food service. I know such sources are out there because I spent quite a lot of time researching the history of the burrito, but I would like to get an answer from the proverbial horse's mouth. I mean, does anyone know more about hamburgers than you on Misplaced Pages? Viriditas (talk) 07:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Could you please can the attitude, Viriditas? You're actively attacking anyone who disagrees with you rather than trying to work out a compromise and consensus. Instead of resorting to thinly-veiled snide remarks, how about you work with the rest of us to come up with an image which will be acceptable? You apparently hate hamburgers and everything the represent (though perhaps I've misinterpreted your vitriolic remarks toward them here), so that apparently won't work. Other than corn, do you have any other valid suggestions for an image to use? Do you have links to images on Commons we might use here? As I stated above, I'm not married to the idea of using the current image; I just strongly objected to how you tried to ram your way down our throats. Let's sit down and discuss things like civilized people, shall we? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:03, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Please strike your above comments. There isn't a single attack from me on this page, and I was asking an expert on hamburgers for his informed opinion about data supporting the popularity of hamburgers which is usually found in industry trade journals that he might have access to at work or at home. I know this because I've engaged in food research in the past, as I noted above. On the other hand, you have attacked me multiple times throughout this discussion. Please start assuming good faith in your interactions with fellow colleagues. Finally, please stop trying to shift the burden. You added the image, therefore you have to support it. I removed it as unsupported. Since you maintain that the infobox must have an image, why is it that I have to find one? I'm really not following that line of reasoning. Sure, I could find dozens of images, but that's not the point. The point is, you want to keep the current image, and that's the problem. If you weren't married to the idea of using the current image, then why have you reverted my attempt to remove it? Your words don't exactly match up with your actions. You keep saying you want to discuss this, but all you keep doing is moving the goalposts and shifting the burden. Viriditas (talk) 08:19, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't care if the current image is the one kept. I simply objected to your ham-handed method of removing it, then declaring here that your way was the correct way and no one better add it back. Exactly how does that show your assumption of good faith on the part of any other editor here? Your edits were reverted per WP:BRD, as already stated. We're on the "D" part of that now, trying to work out something you'll find acceptable. I'm not moving or shifting anything. Let's discuss. Toss out a few ideas for images to use. That's what we're here for. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:29, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Here's a whole category of images we can potentially use. Maybe tehre will be something in there which you like. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
You are welcome to propose any images for addition here on this page, as I have repeatedly said. I would like to discuss something with you, however. Previously, I asked you for a source supporting the current image. You pointed me to a 2002 poll about "pride in America" (not about food) which found that 29% chose hamburgers as "more typically American than others" while 18% said "no one food is more typically American than others". However, that very same poll was repeated in 2009, and the results show new numbers. Now, the poll says 23% "say they think a hamburger/cheeseburger is a food that is more typically American over others" but 24% say that no one food is more typically American than any others. Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
You could give the same poll twice within a shorter period of time and get wildly different results. Dropping from 29% to 24% is not significant. There's no reason to spend my time hunting down polls or articles or whatever else just to support an image in this template, an image which is not inappropriate given the topic. You don't like the image; fine, that's your opinion, and we can try to find a replacement. There's no reason to argue interminably about this particular image as you obviously aren't going to change your mind and I don't give a damn about the polls you keep bringing up. The image doesn't need a source as it is unequivocally American cuisine. However, as I've stated many times, I'm not married to the image. How about we move on to something more productive than trying to source an image in a template used in about 60 articles, eh? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:43, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, I want to address that. They polled an additional 1000 people and they polled during the heart of the recession. The meat industry attributes a decline in consumption to the recession, higher ethanol production costs (corn again), availability (more exports) and government policy (health and environmental issues). As of late 2011, the industry has embraced the domestic decline and has focused on exports. I think this is the reason for the observed decline in the numbers, and I think it is significant. Further, more people say "no one food is more typically American than any others", which means the image doesn't reflect the evidence. What I believe is irrelevant. Viriditas (talk) 08:58, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
So you want to base everything you've said here on a poll of 1000 people? Out of nearly 300 million people? That's not even a validly large sample size to make any kind of determination like that. Regardless, though, I don't care what the polls say as they are irrelevant. You asked for something showing hamburgers were considered sterotypical, so I pointed you to one I found after about 1 minute of searching. I don't have the time to spend searching that you apparently have to dig up all those references you mention above. I don't care enough about this to spend that much time on it (you've already wasted enough time of mine as it is, and I'm tired of dealing with you). I've posted some images below. Go look at them. Find one you like. We'll stick it in. Don't see one you like? Go find one and post it here and we'll stick it in. So far, all you've done is spout of all kinds of crap without trying to actually fix the problem. WP:SOFIXIT by trying to move things forward instead of bogging them down in inane arguments. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 09:21, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, the 2002 poll source you provided was superseded by a newer poll in 2009 which showed a different result. You are the one who believes a navbox requires an image, while I do not. Your basis for this argument is "other templates use images so this one should as well". That's a very poor argument, much like your source. Viriditas (talk) 11:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
To me this conflict seems to be a POV-case combined with a culture-clash. On one hand we have the American, who gives no trace of having been abroad, with a strong USA-centered view about American Cuisine. On the other hand, we have the American-temporary-expat, holding a more global view on American Cuisine. And we all witnessed that clash.
As a Ducthman, living in Ireland, I feel compelled to support Nihonjoe is his view about American Cuisine. I know there is in fact no American Cuisine at all, but that it is an umbrella-term for an amazingly big number of cuisines, organized more or less along regional and/or enthnical lines with some crossovers to make it difficult. But for me, the main symbol of American Cuisine is the hamburger supplied by McDonalds. That was the case back in The Netherlands, but also here in Ireland. So adding a picture of a burger to the template represents a worldwide view on American Cuisine. And that is backed up by 23% of the participants in the Harris Interactive survey, Nihonjoe's Japanese experiences and my own Dutch and Irish experiences. Night of the Big Wind talk 10:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Er, no. The survey says 23% "say they think a hamburger/cheeseburger is a food that is more typically American over others" but 24% say that "no one food is more typically American than any others". Nice try at the anti-American invective, however. Clearly, you believe that American cuisine is best represented by a hamburger and fries. Now, instead of presenting personal, xenophobic anecdotes and misreading the conclusion of a non-notable poll, how about providing evidence? Viriditas (talk) 11:39, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Potential replacement images

commons:Category:Cuisine of the United States is a good place to start to find potential replacements for the image in this template. Please post links to potential images here so we can discuss them. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:43, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

No, I think you should post links to potential images, as the current image isn't supported by the data. Viriditas (talk) 08:59, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
You're the one who wants the image replaced so you need to do at least something other than posting tl;dr walls of text to try and prove how smart you are and how much time you have to waste on something as unimportant as this. Regardless, I've posted a few images below to perhaps get things started. If you don't like any of them, then go find some others you do like and post them here. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 09:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Except, I've never tried to replace the image; I've only tried to remove it. Do you find that confusing? Does removal equate to replacement for you? You've actually said that several times, so I don't know how to respond to that. I don't believe navboxes require images, but you do. Is this making sense or should I rephrase it? If you believe the navbox requires an image, you are free to find one, however, at least two editors have informed you that it does not. And, please, do not keep repeating "but other navboxes use images" as that has no weight whatsoever. Viriditas (talk) 11:37, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict × 2) Note: Images are presented at a width of 175px as that is the width used in the current template. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 09:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Chicken

Corn

Creole

Hot dogs

Pies

Turkey

Lard & Junkfood

Night of the Big Wind talk 09:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
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