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Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/Discussion used

Moving forward

Thanks kindly to the closers for putting so much time and thought into this, it's not like you don't have other wiki-duties. If this is on the wrong page now that the main RFC is over, please tell me where the right page is. As I mentioned above, I think the way forward is to put together working groups of like-minded people. And, I think with an issue with this much history, the much-maligned RFC process is actually useful ... without a deadline, without being able to say "Yes, that's a good argument, but I have to base my close on the arguments given during the RFC, so ...", arguments will forever sprout like hydra heads. I would love to see a series of short, focused RFCs between now and November 1. To the closers: are any or all of you available to close future RFCs? To any of the Option 1 guys who are dubious concerning the close: what would you want to see in future closes that would convince you that these, or any, closers are taking your concerns seriously? (I'm not judging, I'm asking your opinions.) - Dank (push to talk) 08:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I have archived the previous discussion, on the assumption that this talk page will be used to plan the next step for PC. —WFC— 08:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I think all four of us need a week or two to go do some low-profile article writing, but without speaking for the other three admins here I'm happy to help with future RfCs as necessary. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

While I will probably be watching future PC discussions, I don't believe I will be stepping up to close another. My feeling is that with policy-based closures like PC, you don't want the same people doing the same job on the same topic more than once. Fresh eyes and minds are important. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

View of a dubious "Option 1 guy"

In reply to Dank's question: I can imagine how difficult the closers' job was, and I don't want to say anything overly critical while they're all presumably still sighing with relief that it's over. I'm certainly not dubious in the sense of believing it's suspect in any way, and I actually think the overall thrust of the conclusion is reasonable, all things considered. I'm less than happy with the closers' rationale, which seemed overly reliant (to put it mildly) on Option 2 supporters' rebuttals to Option 1 supporters' points and ignored the detailed points made about the awkward aspects of editing PC-protected articles and the learning curve and change in editing protocol that will be required of us all to make it anything other than a hugely cumbersome pain in the ass. Option 1 supporters' rebuttals to Option 2 supporters' points apparently were either disregarded entirely or deemed fallacious.

I also thought this statement was especially unfortunate: "The closers of this RfC reject, as a violation of WP:AGF, the blanket argument that those who support Pending Changes should be assumed to be willing to abuse the system or the giving of user rights." Did anyone make a blanket argument to that effect? If so, I missed it. The topic did come up, but it's not a violation of WP:AGF to extrapolate likely future abuses from past and present abuses; it is a good example of head-in-the-sand denial to pretend there's absolutely nothing to worry about on that score. Anyway, it's not just about good faith; competence is an issue (advanced user permissions are no guarantee of cluefulness, after all). And what about good old fashioned difference of opinion? The only times I've ever been tempted to walk away from Misplaced Pages were when a small group of experienced users, including sysops, have applied what I and many others (including sysops, fwiw) saw as an extreme interpretation of a certain policy in order to stifle discussions that apparently pushed their own personal buttons, not just reverting but promising to block anyone who dared to disagree with them. Already, the call has been made to apply PC to articles covered under that policy.

All in all, I guess I'd say that given the length of time the closers took and the fact that there were four of them, I expected a bit more. I don't doubt they read everything and considered it all carefully, but I can't tell that from the decision they wrote. Actually, I haven't answered your question at all, and having gotten this far, I'm not sure how to answer it. Maybe that I believe the closers took everyone's concerns seriously, but to be convinced of that I'd need the closers to have actually addressed my concerns. Since they couldn't possibly address everyone's concerns, I can only assume that some editors' concerns resonated with them while others didn't. Still, there were what I can only call major concerns that weren't addressed. How to apply that lesson to future RfCs? I have no idea. One thing that might help would be to set them up as actual RfCs, not polls, and allow the discussion to evolve naturally. (The format of this RfC inevitably made actual discussion subsidiary to the numbers.) Problem is, we have only four short months to hold what will need to be multiple discussions in order to avert a debacle beginning on December 1. In a way, the fast-track approach prescribed by the closers is my biggest disappointment here. I'd say it's more important to get it right (or at least minimize the damage)—but the decision has been made. Rivertorch (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Although others have commented on the limitations of the discussion format, personally I found it made it much easier to follow the discussion, as new comments only appeared in a fixed number of places (except at the end, when multiple discussion threads started to spawn). The problem with too many threads to follow is self-perpetuating: it makes it harder for anyone to catch up on all the latest points made, which leads to repetition of points, repetition of rebuttals, and even more discussion threads, exacerbating the whole cycle further. I believe for discussions that have a lot of interested parties, some way of limiting the number of threads to follow is key to keeping the discussions moving forward. One way might be through the use of co-ordinators, as I proposed for arbitration cases, to help organize the discussion points into a fixed number of conversation threads. Another way might be to break down a topic for discussion into specific sub-topics, and have a series of single-threaded conversations on each of them. I'm sure there's lots of other possibilities: I think improving the structure of the conversations will make them easier to follow, saving everyone time, and easier to make contributions that keep moving forward, and not in circles. isaacl (talk) 00:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason I'm climbing on board the next RFC (I hope ... if no one objects, I'll assume that I'm on board in a few days) is that I believe we can do a lot better than we've done with these RFCs, and I want to explore and document that. Limiting the number of threads is important, as you say, and there are a variety of ways to tackle that. When people can see that the point they want to make is already on a list of points the closers have promised to cover before any decisions get made, they're more likely to be patient. The main thing that causes threads to balloon is when two people who don't trust each other and don't see things the same way keep going at each other. So, I'd like to encourage people to start out working mainly with people who agree with you. Try to suggest and perform experiments to prove your case. (I'll make suggestions on how you might do that as we go along.) The best time to confront the opposition is when you have data and other people backing you up. - Dank (push to talk) 00:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

My idea about having co-ordinators is related: my thought was that everyone who generally has a similar viewpoint could co-ordinate their discussion points through one co-ordinator, who would then make any required changes to the page hosting the discussion. (If you haven't already read it, the proposal I linked to has a little bit more detail on this in the context of an arbitration case.) isaacl (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Suggestions for primary switch on

• (1) - I would like to suggest we just switch it on and allow it to be used as we use semi and full - as and when requested on individual articles - just as another tool in the box to help us protect articles. This will also allow a slow and steady start and progressive usage so as to avoid suddenly having excessive reviewing work. I think there was enough experience gained in the trial that users know more or less when and where is is beneficial. Youreallycan 13:59, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• (2) - What about automatically adding it at creation of all new WP:BLP or {{BLP other}} articles - when the Living template is added to the talkpage? Youreallycan 14:02, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• (3) - What about adding it to a a thousand of the current least watched WP:BLP articles, and if that is not an excessive amount of work we could add it to the next thousand - and keep adding a thousand until reviewing work increases unduly - Youreallycan 14:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I would support either the first or second position, with preference to the second here.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 14:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The second one would allow all new articles of living people to get pending protection and the less notable ones would then get attention and additional eyes at start up and the protection levels could be changed or removed moving forwards when its clear if the articles need it or need semi or no protection at all. I imagine a combination of suggestions would be the best, bits of one and bits of another - If you have a suggestion please add it. Thank you. Youreallycan 14:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think the first option is the best starting point, it will allow admins to apply it to the articles most in need on a case by case basis, will allow a slow ramp up of the process, and will allow us to get re accustomed to pending changes. Once it has been active for awhile, we may want to consider option 2 or 3, but I think planning to go immediately to either of them will cause unnecessary controversy. Monty₈₄₅ 17:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, you make an interesting point. As we know there is a sizeable opposition to the tool we could only allow it to be requested via WP:RFPP and through discussion here and in a RFC, work out some guide for good editing violations/situations to request it under. Youreallycan 18:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Have to agree, option one would be best. PC should be considered not as an entity unto itself but as one of several page protection options. We saw during the trial that in some cases it is not the appropriate tool for the job, such as very high volume pages or very long articles. We also saw that it is sometimes a better option in some situations where semi protection would traditionally be applied. The trick is going to be coming up with guidance to help admins decide which is best in any given situation. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:27, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The reviewer right

• My take on what issue to address next would be the reviewer right. Many users in both this and the previous RFC expressed concerns about it. Common concerns include:

• Standards for being granted the right
• What constitutes abuse of the right
• Will we have enough reviewers to handle the workload

Another point brought up on the talk page which certainly needs to be clarified is what should a reviewer do when they see an edit that is proposed that is in good faith, does not violate any specific policies, but which they nonetheless disagree with. I think this scenario is the crux of the argument that reviewers will be part of a class structure. If they reject such an edit, they are doing so as an editor not as a reviewer. Like all tools it should not be used to gain an advantage in a content dispute, but that puts us in a position of asking users to accept edits they do not believe are beneficial. It's a pretty sticky situation and we need to come up with some clear, specific guidance for reviewers in such a situation or this will almost certainly be the area of PC use that causes the most problems. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

This is an important part of the discussion. I put it under its own header , I hope you don't mind - feel free to revert if you feel it doesn't warrent it - Youreallycan 17:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict):I agree with almost all of your points and would add the following

• The standards reviewers should use when reviewing an edit
• Standards for removal of the right

To start with, your comment regarding what reviewers should do with edits they disagree with is actually more of a symbolic question, yet if not handled properly is likely to cause alot of strife. The bureaucratic approach is that a reviewer must approve the disagreeable edit with their reviewer hat on, and then revert the now approved edit as a regular editor. Its a functionally pointless extra step, as declining the change would have the same result, but will lend it self to the class structure complaint. As to the first point, anyone with either a specified number of edits, OR demonstrated competency in a place like WP:FAC or WP:AFD should be presumed eligible and granted the right on request. The presumption of eligibility could then be overriden if there is a serious problem in their editing history related to BLP/Copyvio/etc. While reviewing, teviewers should be expected to catch blatant violations and to look more carefully for the specific problem the page was protected for, but not be expected to exentsively vet a change against every possible problem. If they don't see a major policy violation they should approve and then make changes as approriate as a regular editor. Finally, the right should only be removed if there is a clear pattern of bad reviewing, or if an admin has discussed a specific reviewing issue with the reviewer and its clear that even after the discussion the reviewer does not understand a core policy related to PC. Monty₈₄₅ 17:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I think we are currently more in a mode of planning what the next discussion will be about, not actually having the discussion yet. A new RFC or other discussion at WP:RVW is probably where the actual discussion will take place. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The consensus

Pending Changes will become live on 1 December, 2012. To allow developers enough preparation time, we recommend that community discussion about changes to the draft Pending Changes policy be concluded no later than 1 November, 2012. If the community has not, at that time, reached a consensus about how to change the draft policy, Pending Changes will be implemented according to the terms of the Draft Policy until the community can find a consensus.

With the opposition to Position #1 so high, this is really surprising. I understand that the strength of the argument matters, but I don't believe that it's wise to alienate 30% – 40% of the community. This is simply begging for civil war (or at least many, many retirements). --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:37, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes well, we have to move forwards, lets hope the sky doesn't fall in . I am sure it won't. - Better to focus on the section above, what/were/articles we implement the decision on.Youreallycan 14:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not going to try to gather complex data and have complex discussions with 300 people, all expressing different opinions; that doesn't work. For me, Step One is finding out who will close the next relevant RFC. I can understand if some of the Option 1 guys may wonder if they're going to be heard, so let's deal with that issue. Guys, what would you need to hear from potential closers to satisfy you that they're going to do a good job of listening to your concerns? When that's settled and I know who I'm trying to make a case to, there are some things I want to say about how we can make the process faster, more productive, and more inclusive. Michael makes a good point that one of the top priorities should be making changes that can bring as many people on board as possible. - Dank (push to talk) 15:10, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Dank, I have no illusions that anyone will be heard. This will become a free-for-all, with admins randomly adding this to any article they personally think is appropriate, and the bigger issue is how to deal with the wheel wars that will come when it's clear that the policy doesn't match the practice. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to, but I'll simply point to what happened when we activated revision deletion. My own observation is that at least 30% of revision deletions don't meet the requirements of the deletion policy. Haven't had a single case brought to Arbcom, though. It's just one more way for admins to push their own points of view. Risker (talk) 15:57, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I would never discard anything you had to say out of hand, Risker, and besides, you're making an excellent point here. It's very much in line with what many of the Option 1 people were saying, namely: this idea of "reviewing" should not be as trivial or breezy as some are making out. I'm not going to say whether the voters were right or wrong ... only that it's a substantial position with substantial support that needs thorough testing before PC is turned on. I don't read the close to say that it's a done deal that PC should be allowed to sprout like weeds ... if testing determines that we need to be careful and put limits on it, then that's what we need to do.

Being bold: I seem to be one of the few people who was leaning Option 3 (although I didn't vote) who seems to be getting along well with the opposers. I really think it's important for whoever the next closers are to step up sooner rather than later and reach out to the opposition, who we can reasonably expect to be disaffected. Does anyone object if I ask the other 3 closers (other than Blade) if they are in for Round 2, and if there's an opening, if I could jump in? I'm more "talky" than the typical RFC closer, but then, the main RFC is over, and I think a more active style may be warranted. - Dank (push to talk) 16:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, we just had a vote where people's support for a proposal that wasn't being put forward was actively included as support for the proposal that *was* being put forward (and let's stop kidding ourselves, that wasn't an RFC, it was a vote). Persuade me that there's the slightest chance that a more precise policy will be developed, and that it will actually be enforceable. Risker (talk) 16:16, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm about to create the page WT:Pending_changes/Request_for_Comment_2012/Risker; feel free to delete it if it doesn't work for you. The idea is to encourage you (and I'll make a page for anyone else who wants one) to work up your own proposal that has a reasonable chance of gathering support and a reasonable chance of dealing with your concerns. I'll get you started by copying some of what you've said there, and asking a few questions. - Dank (push to talk) 16:46, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Please don't, Dank. My time in the next few weeks will be consumed by (1) Arbcom cases, (2) RL work and (3) Wikimania preparations and attendance; this isn't even in my top-8 priorities. This is an expected disappointment: I knew how this was going to end the moment I saw the page. Risker (talk) 17:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I really see the way they chose to close this as a win/win situation. We've done what the RFC was designed to do, to make just that one very important decision, and they have given us five months to work it the details.. I should think that would be more than enough time to transform the humble draft policy we have now into something more comprehensive that users will feel more comfortable with. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course you like the close, Beeblebrox: your proposal is endorsed completely. You've done it pretty well exactly the opposite of what RFC is supposed to do, which is to consider options FIRST and then decide which ones are the best. But the objective was met, and I give you props for figuring out a way to get a decision of any nature out of the community. Unfortunately, it pretty well means that any future decisions are going to have three choices that drive toward a specific conclusion, and no opposition to that format will be permitted, but at least it's a decision-making process. I just don't think it should be called RFC. Risker (talk) 17:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Don't be like that Risker. I know you don't like the result, and I know you don't like the format I designed, but the goal here was always to answer just that one question we were not allowed to answer last year. So, we'd alreay tried it the more traditional way and it didn't work. When this went live I honestly had no idea how it would turn out and if PC had been rejected entirely by the community I would be fine with that.

I don't think this type of restricted discussion should be used for just any old discussion though, only for cases like this where we already tried it the other way and repeatedly failed to arrive at an actionable result. I actually originally proposed this approach near the end of the last RFC, I waited a year for someone else to come up with a better idea, and nobody did, so this is what went forward. It is certainly not intended as a model for all future discussions. I actually would have preferred my other idea of a questionaire filled out by each participant, but there was a lot of trouble coming to an agreement as to what the questions should be. Maybe we could dust off that approach in the coming months, it could be useful in identifying exactly what tweaks and improvements are needed for the policy. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:12, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Please link the "Draft policy" referenced above. My76Strat (talk) 18:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Pending Changes - isn't this it? - Youreallycan 18:37, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

No. Go to Misplaced Pages:Pending_changes/Request_for_Comment_2012/Option_2 and click the "show" link. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 18:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I have linked the page above with a direct link. I presume the talk page there is the place where discussion to improve the policy will be marshaled? The talk page there is red linked and I leave it to those most familiar with appropriate forward momentum to create the page and set the discussion parameters, which I am keen to enjoin. My76Strat (talk) 18:54, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

FYI: The draft policy is actually transcluded from its own page at Misplaced Pages:Pending changes/Provisional policy. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes sir, that is the page I believe I linked in the opening above. I am still curious if that talk page is where discussion will take place regarding suggestions and tweaks? My76Strat (talk) 19:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The talk page of the draft policy seems logical for proposed changes to it. If we are going to discuss reviewing first probably the talk page of WP:RVW. However, I think it is important at this point that the next phases of this discussion be initiated by someone other than me, so its up to whoever decides to step up and get the ball back in play. For the record, I found the closers for this discussion by repeatedly posting at WP:AN, so if that is what the very next step is that might be a good place to start. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Out of curiosity

Did the closers loot at the counter-arguments some folks posted on the various other pages in an attempt to get around the pure vote format? I ask because they were kind of scattered around the place, few added to vote comments, most added to the discussion and to this page, maybe a few to the talkpages of the particular options, etc... of course the thing wasn't supposed to be discussed, and counter-arguments didn't have any place here, but I am curious. -— Isarra ༆ 18:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Noto to nitpick, but I have to object to the contention that it wasn't supposed to be discussed. The format was designed to accomodate those who wished to have yet another discussion and those (as it turned out the overwhelming majority of participants on both sides of the issue) who felt we had already discussed this enough and they were ready to state their position. Given the length of time the closers took to come to their decision and the detail contained in that decision, it seems pretty clear to me that they read and took into consideration every comment made here. That was the job they agreed to take on after all. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The next closers

I'm linking this new section from Blade's announcement of the results at WP:AN to invite any admins interested in closing the next round to come throw their hats in; if we get more than we need, then I invite anyone who has an opinion on who we need (or don't need) to comment here. I see above that Blade is available and Fluffernutter is not. I'm available; I've been following this, I've been asked, and I think I can be helpful, but we'll see. I agree with Rivertorch's statement above that 4 months feels like not a lot of time, given the job ahead. So I think we need to get moving on the next mini-RFC, starting with selecting the next closers. I would prefer for the closers to be more proactive for the next round that closers normally are; I think success (or failure) is going to come after investing a lot of time in listening to everyone who has a beef. - Dank (push to talk) 19:54, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

No objection to you and Blade, I agree with User:Flutternutter that fresh eyes are needed - but if an admin feels fresh and still willing to contribute and there are no objections then I don't see any problem with that. - Youreallycan 20:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

My concerns

So, here are my concerns, in no real order.

• First, I'm not really sure on the RfC close. It would seem a major structural change to the project should require an overwhelming consensus, and this didn't look like it. It seems this was treated more as a vote, with arguments checked as an afterthought. That being said, there wouldn't be any consensus to reverse it, either, so I suppose we're stuck with it.
• The idea that we'll have a "default" setup on a "deadline" if no other consensus is reached, and we'll start using it anyway, concerns me. If we can't reach consensus on how to use it, we shouldn't use it until and unless we can, and that should be the only time at which we will. Realistically, the discussion should have started at working on the question of how if at all it should be used, and if no policy for use could gain consensus, the status quo ante, no use at all, should remain.
• If we are stuck with PC, it should be used only where semiprotection (level 1) or full protection (level 2) would be appropriate. We should certainly not be using it to expand the circumstances under which we restrict editing.
• We need to be clear that the removal of the reviewer right is an administrative sanction, and is subject to all restrictions on such, including that removal must be preventive rather than punitive, must be based upon actual wrongdoing, and must not be performed by an involved admin. For why this in particular is a concern of mine, see the history of User:Scott MacDonald/Removal of reviewer rights from User:Wnt (it's a redirect back to the main user page now, so you have to go back to the history). To sum up, an administrator removed the reviewer right of an editor with whom he was engaged in a content dispute, and specifically because he did not like the other editor's position in the dispute. The issue was ultimately dropped as moot because the PC trial was ended during the discussion, but it's not moot now.
• Yep, I recognize the scenario Rivertorch states above, and I'll say what I bet its name is: BLP. BLP itself is a good policy and one we all should follow, but hysteria over it is not good. I've seen many users who should know better, including admins, use "BLP" as a bludgeon and an excuse to not even brook an argument in content disputes (including in the rights removal example I linked above). It must not be allowed to be used as a bludgeon or "trump card" here, and there should be no especial use of PC on BLPs where semi/full protection would be inappropriate under current policy.
• Like protection, PC should only be used indefinitely as a last resort. It's hard to remember to check up on something a couple of months later, so the default should be that each use will have an expiry.

I'm sure I'll think of more. Seraphimblade 21:12, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah thanks for your comments - I would note that your link to the discission about User:Wnt is not linking to the discussion - could you please see if you can correct that - thanks - Personally - imo - any user that vocally and repeatedly rejects primary wikipedia policy such as WP:BLP as the day the project died as User:Wnt does, should not hold WP:reviewer status, but this is a good topic to discuss and resolve here and has been opened above in the Wikipedia_talk:Pending_changes/Request_for_Comment_2012#The_reviewer_right section. Regards - Youreallycan 21:19, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

You can use this, if you prefer, it's the last edit before the page was changed to a redirect. Your attitude there, that an editor should be penalized for holding an unpopular position (but does not act, against consensus, on that position, just argues for it), is exactly my fear in bringing this up. Seraphimblade 21:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't have an "attitude there" - I objected to the User:Wnt's desired content additions - his desired additions were strongly rejected - I support the removal of advanced permissions from all users that vocally object to, or refuse to accept current wiki policy as "the day the project died" - saying that - I personally wouldn't take it off them until they specifically made a violating review/content addition and would be happy for User:Wnt to have the right replaced under this position. A position of, although I object to and vocally reject WP:BLP policy I will not violate it .. sort of declaration would be more than satisfactory and I think I can remember him saying such in a discussion with me.Youreallycan 21:42, 23 June 2012 (UTC)