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Support
- I made a few comments below about some small modifications I think could work nicely with this proposal, but overall I think it's a good idea. Regards, MacMedstalk 20:36, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- - Dank (push to talk) 21:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion on the proposal
- I welcome everyone's thoughts on this, and if anything seems unclear, please feel free to ask me to explain/clarify - jc37 16:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think this makes a lot of sense. I've just returned from a fairly lengthy wikibreak after dealing with some family health issues, and am finding it to still be frustrating at times. I am an OTRS member, and I often need to ping admins in order to see what a deleted file was or what the text on a deleted page was. It isn't that large of an inconvenience, but this proposal would streamline my work along with that of any other non-admin OTRS agents. I also think that some may not approve of just giving the ability to delete pages, files and revisions out to people just because they are on OTRS. I would humbly like to suggest perhaps a second user group for non-admin OTRS agents, with just the ability to view deleted files, pages, and undelete both as well. Anything that needs to be deleted or the like could be given to an admin, or an OS if the situation calls for it. Just my 2c. Regards, MacMedstalk 17:19, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- OTRS sounds like a nice example of non-admins who are trying to help out with (among other things) content-related tasks. I don't see why an OTRS helper couldn't request this package from the community. - jc37 17:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think you miss-characterize the outcome of close related discussions. Only in the case of deletion discussion closing is there the outcome that non-admins should avoid closing close or contentious discussions. To the best of my knowledge, the contentious exception to non-admin closes has never extended to non-deletion discussions. Monty845 00:35, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're correct that I was indeed referring to XfD discussions. See also: this. Though I believe that this has also been affirmed for some others, like some RfCs and RMs. That said, my intent was in no way to mischaracterise. - jc37 00:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to suggest any malfeasance on your part, just raise the issue. There is little documentation on closing outside the Deletion Process, and virtually none when it comes to non-admins, can you point to where an otherwise good close of anything other then a deletion discussion was reversed on the grounds that the closer was a non-admin? I just want to avoid perpetuating any misconceptions regarding the limits on non-admin closes. Monty845 00:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'd have to look, but I'm fairly sure that it's not uncommon to see non-admin contentious RM closes reverted. (It's one of the things that has been discussed at WT:MRV.) And I recently helped close an RfC where they specifically asked not only for an admin to close it, but 3 admins to close it. So it really depends and seems to be on a case-by-case basis. - jc37 01:06, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to suggest any malfeasance on your part, just raise the issue. There is little documentation on closing outside the Deletion Process, and virtually none when it comes to non-admins, can you point to where an otherwise good close of anything other then a deletion discussion was reversed on the grounds that the closer was a non-admin? I just want to avoid perpetuating any misconceptions regarding the limits on non-admin closes. Monty845 00:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're correct that I was indeed referring to XfD discussions. See also: this. Though I believe that this has also been affirmed for some others, like some RfCs and RMs. That said, my intent was in no way to mischaracterise. - jc37 00:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Changing visibility proposal
- Here is a half-baked idea that might lead to something useful; imagine that someone is working on something that involves making things invisible. (Despite this proposal saying "view deleted text and changes between deleted revisions" it really isn't deletion; it is changing visibility.) He is given two options; first, he can choose to make the material invisible to most editors but visible to those with this new user right. This would be for things like a page that is deleted through AfD or Prod. Second, he can make it invisible to everyone except admins. This would be for things like revealing personal information or copyright violations. Things that are made invisible to everyone but admins should show a brief description of what was deleted and why. Something like "person information about another editor" or "material copyrighted by Tom Clancy". The requirement to provide a description for the visible-only-to-admins material and not to visible-to-trusted-editors material will encourage marking things as being visible to trusted editors whenever possible.
- Because this would require software changes, the proposal should specify that all visibility remains as it is pending software support and that after it is turned on all visibility of existing invisible material will be set to visible-only-to-admins unless an admin changes it. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- As I mentioned above, I work with OTRS. While I support the gist of your proposal, I often need to see copyrighted info that has been deleted in order to verify that it is the same as what is released in the ticket. Implementing this would reduce the bottleneck occasionally, but given the material usually dealt with on OTRS it wouldn't help too much. Perhaps visible to admins and OTRS members would work for the copyright material that gets deleted. Regards, MacMedstalk 20:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting ideas. I seem to recall something in the distant past regarding something like the user-right you suggest. I'll have to find it. (it's on meta.) - jc37 20:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- meta:Pure wiki deletion system (proposal)/Misplaced Pages:Pure wiki deletion system - Though note, I have strong doubts on PWD ever gaining consensus. - jc37 20:32, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting ideas. I seem to recall something in the distant past regarding something like the user-right you suggest. I'll have to find it. (it's on meta.) - jc37 20:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- As I mentioned above, I work with OTRS. While I support the gist of your proposal, I often need to see copyrighted info that has been deleted in order to verify that it is the same as what is released in the ticket. Implementing this would reduce the bottleneck occasionally, but given the material usually dealt with on OTRS it wouldn't help too much. Perhaps visible to admins and OTRS members would work for the copyright material that gets deleted. Regards, MacMedstalk 20:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- Another idea: how about requiring two admins to approve the new user right? That would make it harder to obtain than rollbacker but easier than admin, and would lessen any concerns about abuse anyone may have. We could say that after a year we will have a RfC on whether that number should be one, two, or three admins. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, this is just an idea I am throwing out there for discussion. I think the process described in the present proposal is superior to this idea. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- In my experience from past discussions, the ability to view deleted material likely won't fly unless gained through community consensus. - jc37 20:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, this is just an idea I am throwing out there for discussion. I think the process described in the present proposal is superior to this idea. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Alternatives to "moderator"
From my trusty thesaurus:
Administrator: a person who manages or directs something (a hospital administrator)
Synonyms: administrant, boss, bureaucrat, captain, CEO, chair, chairperson, chief, commander, commissioner, consul, controller, custodian, director, executive, functionary, governor, head, inspector, leader, manager, minister, officer, official, organizer, overseer, producer, superintendent, supervisor.
Moderator: a person in charge of a meeting (the moderator should make sure that everyone gets a chance to speak)
Synonyms: alleviator, ambassador, archon, attaché, boss, bureaucrat, captain, chargé d'affaires, conciliator, consul, diplomat, director, emissary, envoy, legate, mediator, minister, mitigator, monitor, peacemaker, plenipotentiary, presider, principal, prolocutor, referee, soother, stabilizer, symposiarch.
My ideas:
Grand Poobah?
Fountain guard?
Guardian of the Gates?
Necron?
Dalek Supreme?
Tisroc?
Village idiot?
Barrayaran Imperial Auditor?
Steward of Gondor?
--Guy Macon (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that for the purposes elsewhere, content and behaviour is lumped together. So most terms are going to have been used for both at some place or other.
Moderator has a couple things going for it:
- It's a universally known term online as someone who deals with discussions/text/"substance".
- It's fairly neutral term
- It's easily abbreviated to "mod" (compare to administrator/admin)
- AFAIK it should translate fairly easily
Though, I won't spoil the fun : )
How about Grand_Nagus? : ) - jc37 21:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
- I !Vote for village idiot... on a more serious note, I think Moderator denotes too much authority... what about Janitor? (What we probably should have called admins in the first place) Monty845 00:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- How about Trusted Editor ("you will have to ask an admin or tred to make that change")? I am really hoping for Dalek Supreme, though... --Guy Macon (talk) 00:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I refuse to support anything other than Grand Poobah. In actuality, I'm unsure of a great name, but moderator in my opinion has normally been associated with moderating editors/behavior, so it doesn't seem entirely appropriate. I'm not sure of a good alternative though, trusted editor is a good one. Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:21, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- Trusted editor applies to every user group... - jc37 01:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- Personally, I like Trusty system (prison). It has certain connotations that would reflect accurately on anyone who requests this type of job :) Quinn 04:02, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Just a rant
This is just a rant, and it won't have a large effect on the proposal at all, but these are some thoughts that came to mind. I feel like a large number of administrators are opposed because of lack of experience in content work. It usually comes down to CSD and AFD work. That means a decent number of the recent non NOTNOW RfA fails wouldn't make it through this. Would this be generally a means for editors who have templates like User:Octane/userboxes/Admin-no to get enhanced editing tools? In addition, while I don't know if it is an official requirement, adminship is a necessary stepping stone for bureaucratship. Would this become a necessary stepping stone for adminship? Would editors be expected to run for "moderatorship" or "trusted editorship" before they ran for adminship? Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- This is just off the top of my head, but I seem to recall several examples where someone said their intention was to help in CSD and/or AfD. In which case, a commenter wishing more contributions there doesn't sound beyond the pale (everyone has their own requirement criteria for supporting requests, to be sure). Are there those who oppose even without that expressed interest? probably. My point was: "Ok, we still may see that, but we now won't see any of the blocking ones, page protection ones, edit warring ones, and so on. So we'll be reducing the types of opposes by a fair amount I think, due to the focusing of the user-rights involved.
- Octane could request tools just like anyone else, I presume? (If they don't wish to, then that too is their choice?)
- It's been re-affirmed several times that while all current bureaucrats happen to be admins, there is no requirement.
- And in my opinion, NO. This is designed to be an additional user group to help out, the same way rollbacker and account creator help out reducing the load for admins. In this case, content-related tasks.
- WIll others want that? I dunno. Are there commenters who may wish someone to have rollback before requesting adminship? probably. But no, no such requirement whatsoever is intended as a part of this proposal. - jc37 01:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I think that for all but the most SNOW approved admin candidates, there will be a strong pressure to go through moderatorship first. Its unlikely that such is the intent of those who support it, but I think its almost inevitable. Monty845 01:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree, and I sincerely hope not. This is intended to be an option for editors. - jc37 01:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Monty, and I don't think that that is necessarily a bad thing. As long as the process of becoming a mod (use the working title I suppose) doesn't turn into the flameouts that are so often RFAs, this kind of seems like exactly what the community wants. Why not allow editors to gain more experience with certain aspects of the mop before diving in headfirst? Sounds similar to the perennial proposal to implement some form of trial adminship. If this becomes something of a stepping stone to adminship, so what? New admins know how to use the content related tools (the abuse of which is easily reverted for the most part) and just have to adjust to the editor related buttons (block, protect etc). In any case, there will always be hat collectors who want rights for the sake of rights, and will apply to this vigorously and repeatedly. Having this be a "stepping stone" wouldn't increase that number too dramatically in my humble opinion. Regards, MacMedstalk 02:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't oppose that. I oppose it being required for every potential admin candidate. If someone comes along and wants to run for adminship, they shouldn't be required an intermediary step if it isn't necessary in their case. - jc37 02:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- It wouldn't be officially required, but realistically, if you are working in the areas that require the mop, you would get access to the mod toolkit first. If it's easier to get, and helps you in your work (as it should most potential admin candidates), then why wouldn't you have it? Admittedly there are candidates whose contributions lie in other areas, and as such wouldn't need this toolkit. However, any admin candidate with a stated intention of working in XfDs, clearing CSD backlogs, or anything else that falls under this "mod" umbrella would likely be expected by the community to have experience with this mini mop first. It allows them to demonstrate to their fellow editors that they are level headed and can manage a close. Regards, MacMedstalk 02:17, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- Like I said, I don't oppose the idea of individuals using this as a learning opportunity rather than jumping directly into adminship.
- Something else you didn't mention were those individuals who do not want the behaviour-related tools. This would be an opportunity for them to help as well.
- The overall goal here is to get certain tools in the hands of trusted editors who could use them. The otrs example above is just one of many examples. - jc37 03:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- It wouldn't be officially required, but realistically, if you are working in the areas that require the mop, you would get access to the mod toolkit first. If it's easier to get, and helps you in your work (as it should most potential admin candidates), then why wouldn't you have it? Admittedly there are candidates whose contributions lie in other areas, and as such wouldn't need this toolkit. However, any admin candidate with a stated intention of working in XfDs, clearing CSD backlogs, or anything else that falls under this "mod" umbrella would likely be expected by the community to have experience with this mini mop first. It allows them to demonstrate to their fellow editors that they are level headed and can manage a close. Regards, MacMedstalk 02:17, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't oppose that. I oppose it being required for every potential admin candidate. If someone comes along and wants to run for adminship, they shouldn't be required an intermediary step if it isn't necessary in their case. - jc37 02:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Monty, and I don't think that that is necessarily a bad thing. As long as the process of becoming a mod (use the working title I suppose) doesn't turn into the flameouts that are so often RFAs, this kind of seems like exactly what the community wants. Why not allow editors to gain more experience with certain aspects of the mop before diving in headfirst? Sounds similar to the perennial proposal to implement some form of trial adminship. If this becomes something of a stepping stone to adminship, so what? New admins know how to use the content related tools (the abuse of which is easily reverted for the most part) and just have to adjust to the editor related buttons (block, protect etc). In any case, there will always be hat collectors who want rights for the sake of rights, and will apply to this vigorously and repeatedly. Having this be a "stepping stone" wouldn't increase that number too dramatically in my humble opinion. Regards, MacMedstalk 02:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I agree with MacMed that this would eventually be seen as a pre-admin requirement. Not necessarily a terrible thing, but it would make the RfA process even harder than it currently is. If the real problem is too few admins to do the work of admins we should be working to make the process less painful. If we're not getting enough admins because we're afraid of the problems that arise when we put too much trust in them, then let's encourage steps to make admins more trustworthy and accountable (such as asking for confirmed real names from administrators; encouraging them to be above the age of majority; temporarily and automatically removing admin privileges from accounts that have been dormant for over nine months; etc.). There is also a lot of work that can still be done without additional privileges that needs to be done (I'm trying to cleanup the backlog of AfDs that closed with "Merge" that haven't ever been merged). I think WP needs more innovative ideas, so I applaud Jc37 for taking the initiative here, but I'm afraid it'll lead to more problems than the current problem. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 03:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
- required? no. I'm certain it won't in the same way other user-rights aren't "required". In the same way that even now, a discussion closure doesn't "require" an admin. In the same way we don't have hard rules (per the 5th pillar).
- But besides that, "...it'll lead to more problems..." - such as? - jc37 03:36, 24 June 2012 (UTC)