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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by EdJohnston (talk | contribs) at 18:21, 10 December 2012 (→Result concerning Evildoer187: Closing. Two months of protection for List of indigenous peoples. Two editors are being notified under ARBPIA). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Darkness Shines

Evildoer187

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Evildoer187

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Moxy (talk) 17:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Evildoer187 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

"All articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed are under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related. "

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 11:42, December 8, 2012 - No edit summary
2. 00:32, December 8, 2012 - - No edit summary
3. 08:11, December 7, 2012 - The documentation is right in front of you, you just choose to ignore it
4. 16:54, December 6, 2012 - No edit summary

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 12:34, December 7, 2012 by Moxy (talk · contribs)
2. Warned (reminded of the 1 revert rule) on 06:11, December 8, 2012 by Nishidani (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Not sure this is the best way to proceed as there are many involved in the edit war. However after this post to quote "I have just reverted your edit (it's been 24 hours, I believe)". 24 hours is not the point - 1 revert rule is in place to make editors talk - not a invitation to revert at will after 24 hours. I believe we need to get all talking over editing and I believe this will send a message to all involved to talk it out.17:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Notification here

Discussion concerning Evildoer187

Question to Moxy:Why did you only bring the request only regarding Evildoer187?

It seem to meet that at least one more user has broke 1RR.For example Nishidani

1. 20:14, 6 December 2012 (edit summary: "There is no source listing Israelites as indigenous under the lead def. and the world org sources. As per talk")
2. 10:22, 7 December 2012 (edit summary: "Removed wp:or essay from what is a 'list. No documentation supports the entry, and the essay is pure WP:synth")
3. 17:41, 7 December 2012 (edit summary: "/* Western Asia */")

--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Nishidani did do so but as seen linked above and here he is aware of his mistake. However as linked above and here Evildoer187 seem to have every intent on reverting again.Moxy (talk) 17:51, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Evildoer187

I only reverted it because the 24 hour limit had passed. I will revert my revert if that resolves the issue.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Ubikwit

I am new to this discussion and editing conflagration, but it seems that in addition to Bedouins, Kurds should be on the list; I added them earlier. There is a fair amount of discussion relating to "contemporary status" regarding the characterization of a people as indigenous, not anachronistic claims related to "origin" or the like. It would seem that the focus should be on history and politics, not religion and genetics, but the discussion has been hijacked. The claim being made by the pro-Israel group is clearly an ahistorical claim. Given the references in the UN document I cited on the article Talk page, it seems that Palestinian Arabs in Israel should be on the list as well as Bedouin Arabs. The overall question of Palestinians in the Palestinians territories would seem to be much more difficult, and perhaps intractable at present, but it seems clear that there is no basis in modern history to include Jews, let alone the anachronistic "Israelites" on the list. --Ubikwit (talk) 15:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Statement by Evildoer187

Given the criteria of the definition of indigenous peoples as defined under international law, particularly "Defining Indigenous People" Section 2 which I will explain in a moment, it would be inaccurate and an exercise in historical revisionism to include Palestinians in the list and not Jews. Here I have produced a word-for-word copy of the criteria, lifted directly from the document, as it is download-only and cannot be linked to on here. However, a quick Google search of "UN working definition of indigenous peoples" should lead you directly to the document itself.

Now without further ado...

"This historical continuity may consist of the continuation, for an extended period reaching into the present of one or more of the following factors:

a) Occupation of ancestral lands, or at least part of them;

b) Common ancestry with the original occupants of these lands;

c) Culture in general, or in specific manifestations (such as religion, living under a tribal system, membership of an indigenous community, dress, means of livelihood, lifestyle, etc.);

d) Language (whether used as the only language, as mother-tongue, as the habitual means of communication at home or in the family, or as the main, preferred, habitual, general or normal language);

e) Residence on certain parts of the country, or in certain regions of the world;

f) Other relevant factors."

Reading this, it should be apparent to anyone with extensive knowledge on Jewish history that Jews fit the bill to a tee. All of this is roundly supported by genetic, historical, linguistic, archaeological, and cultural evidence. There is also a consensus based on archaeological and other findings that the Jewish people are an outgrowth of Canaanite culture, and are not foreign conquerors from Babylon as has been posited by less than reliable sources. The idea that Palestinians are indigenous, and the Jews are not, is not supported by the facts on the table, especially considering Palestinians are ethnically Arab/Muslim, who are arguably even more recent than the Roman colonization of the Levant. It's also worth mentioning that denial of Jewish indigeneity resulted in charging Chandra Roy-Henriksen, Chief Secretariat of the Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, with violating provisions of Declarations of Rights of Indigenous People and Universal Declarations of Human Rights (UDHR) and the International Convention of the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD) and other UN and United States anti-discrimination laws. To this day, Israeli and Jewish representatives continue to attend the Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues. http://firstpeoples.org/wp/tag/american-jewish-world-services/

One last thing, I would also like to charge Ubitwik of promoting some rather crass antisemitic conspiracy theories on the talk page, as evidenced here:

"Harry Truman was a Christian biblical literalist who also happened to be a Freemason and close acquaintance of Zionist activist Chaim Weizman, which many associate with the Knight Templar, who rose to prominence through the Crusades to the so-called Holy Land. The Crusaders thought that they had a claim to "land rights", based on religion--Christianity. Your assertions are all either misdirected and irrelevant, or simply incorrect. The questions relating to Jews seem to be primarily about religion, and staking claims based on an anachronistic religious basis, encompassing the continued attempt to physically disposes through illegal occupation by "settlers" of the current and actual holders of the rights to lands in question.--Ubikwit (talk) 06:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit"

And here....

"It would appear that the Israeli participants were trying to hijack the forum in order to bolster their assertion of a claim to "indigenousness". Chandra Roy-Henriksen was not "charged" by a prosecutor, but charges were leveled against her by the Jews organization that is filing a civil suit, apparently. The last sentence in the article states: "There is no question that the Jewish People meet the UN Criteria for being considered indigenous." That is obviously not the case, and what unfolds in the civil suit should be relevant regarding the disposition of Jews to claim indigenous status. The modern state of Israel is considered to be illegally occupying Palestinian territory, in case you need to be reminded of that salient fact.--Ubikwit (talk) 06:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit"

Thank you.Evildoer187 (talk) 21:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Evildoer187

Also, there's this. http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/5session_factsheet1.pdf

"Considering the diversity of indigenous peoples, an official definition of “indigenous” has not been adopted by any UN-system body. Instead the system has developed a modern understanding of this term based on the following: • Self- identification as indigenous peoples at the individual level and accepted by the community as their member. • Historical continuity with pre-colonial and/or pre-settler societies • Strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources • Distinct social, economic or political systems • Distinct language, culture and beliefs • Form non-dominant groups of society • Resolve to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive peoples and communities."

With the exception of part 6 (i.e. "Form non-dominant groups of society"), according to which Palestinians (whose culture and ethnic identity is that of the Arab colonists from the 7th century) and Arabs in general would also be excluded, Jews meet virtually all of the criteria listed.Evildoer187 (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Followup Statement by Ubikwit

Since I have basically been called a bad name by someone who is collaborating with other individuals with a blatant religious bias, I feel compelled to contribute a substantial post related to the subject matter of the article at hand vis-a-vis the misleading and selective presentation of material by Evildoer187. Before advancing, however, I would like to point to the statements of Crock81:

'Tritomex,while Misplaced Pages may not recognise religious texts as reliable sources, because the Torah is a central source of identity of the Yisrael, to deny it means to they identity to the cultural heritage and entire of the entire ethnicity. This is NOT within the providence of an encyclopaedia. It is the culture's own choice what it regards as a 'reliable source' of it's own practice, given the source was from God. You may be an atheist, but denying the use of the text to this culture IMPOSES ATHEISM, which is actually a denial of human rights according to the UN universal charter. Based on this I will seek to take administrative action against you and any other editor that takes the same line of 'argument' in disrupting editing Crock81 (talk) 02:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Note that Crock81 makes a brazen statement denying the validity of WP:RS, and threatening to take administrative action against editors that insist that said policy be followed.

I should integrate the following information into the Talk page when I have time to sort through these questions a bit more, but here is a preliminary discussion for the sake of assessing the editing practices of the pro-Israel/Jewish contributors.

First, with respect to the article mentioning Chandra Roy-Henriksen, Chief Secretariat of the Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, the following quotes appear in the article Jewish Organizations Barred from UN Conference.

OFICL investigated the issue and subsequently discovered that another organization called the Negev Coexistence Forum for Civil Equality, an Israeli Bedouin rights organization, was also barred from attending the same conference.

“We attended last year's conference and actually floored 12 Representatives during the Conference,” said OFICL chairman Dr. Michael T. Snidecor. “I don’t have access to the actual records, but our Secretary was told that we had the largest number of representatives from outside North America at the conference.”

“The Special Rapporteur for the region said that for years the Forum had tried to obtain information from the Israeli Government about complaints regarding issues with Bedouin in the Negev,” said OFICL director Mark Kaplan. “The government has never responded. So, we were able to forward a report by another organization about the situation containing studies about the serious ecological damage posed by illegal Bedouin construction and proposals on how to work with the Bedouins to solve the issues.

In light of the fact that the following reference is cited in the document State of the Indigenous Peoples of the World, p. 151, it would appear that the Israeli organization sent an overwhelming presence to the conference in order to dominate the forum, and that to prevent that from recurring both the Israeli and Bedouin groups were blocked. It can be imagined that the issues at hand regarding the world's multitude of indigenous peoples demanded the attention of the participants, whereas the issue of the plight of the Bedouin had been stonewalled by the Israeli government, and from the description of the report the OFICL presented, they would seem to have been presenting the governments position vis-a-vis the Bedouins as a proxy of the government:

Abu-Saad, Ismael. 2003. “Bedouin Arabs in Israel. Between the Hammer and the Anvil: Education as a Foundation for Survival and Development” in The Future of Indigenous Peoples: Strategies for Survival and Development, ed. Duane Champagne and Ismael Abu-Saad. Los Angeles, CA: UCLA American Indian Studies Center.

It seemed to me that Evildoer187 had blatantly misrepresented the content of that paper in his post on the Talk page.

Regarding the subject matter of the list, though a bit rough and including OR (it is a discussion toward an edit, not an edit), I offer the following toward reaching some sort of consensus.

The attempt to claim retroactive status of indigeneity after more than a thousand years of no historical continuity with the land in question is anachronistic, and represents an effort to mask the actual status of the Zionist returnees to Palestine, which is that of “settlers”.

In a sense, the Zionist settlers can be seen to have served as a proxy for the colonization of Palestine. Meanwhile, the definition of “indigenous peoples” has been put forth mainly with respect to tribal minorities an aboriginal peoples that have been subjugated on their lands by modern nation states. There is a definition that contrasts “setters” to “indigenous” from a relevant reference below.

First, here are definitions from the article Indigenous peoples:

The political sense of the term defines these groups as particularly vulnerable to exploitation and oppression by nation states. As a result, a special set of political rights in accordance with international law have been set forth by international organizations such as the United Nations, the International Labour Organization and the World Bank.

The status of the indigenous group in this relationship can be characterized in most instances as an effectively marginalized, isolated or minoritised one, in comparison to majority groups or the nation-state as a whole. Their ability to influence and participate in the external policies that may exercise jurisdiction over their traditional lands and practices is very frequently limited. This situation can persist even in the case where the indigenous population outnumbers that of the other inhabitants of the region or state; the defining notion here is one of separation from decision and regulatory processes that have some, at least titular, influence over aspects of their community and land rights.

The claims to land based on their religious documents, which contain a large proportion of fictitious material, are put forth as superseding the exigencies of historical reality in terms of seeking to retroactively assert an anachronistic claim of indigeneity, on the one hand, while on the other hand, it has been admitted that the tale of Moses leading Israelites out of slavery in Egypt was a fabrication in order to claim direct genealogical connection with the Canaanites, whose kingdoms and cultures the Israelites usurped. It has also been claimed that Israelites were prohibited from intermarrying with Canaanites, further complicating the convoluted assessment by the introduction of unreliable sources in the form of religious documents.

It could be said that those attempting to push these views are attempting to assume the mantle of Canaanites in a manner that monopolizes such an anachronistic claim for the Jews and excludes the Palestinians, who in fact have historical continuity in the land of Canaan, whereas it would appear from a cursory assessment of the history of the region that the Jews were completely absent for centuries on end before the modern era, with a mere 4% of the population of Palestine consisting of Jews in the mid-19th century.

In another sense, neither the Jews nor Palestinians would need to be considered as indigenous if not for the intervention of Britain and Zionist colonization, because nether population emerged as the original occupants of the land, and even the myths of the Israelites describe them as migrating from Egypt. However, because the Zionist colonization has resulted in oppression of people that had unbroken historical continuity in inhabiting Palestine, discussion has taken place in UN forums relating to the plight of Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin Arabs in Israel.

In short, the discussion of religious references and genetics are largely irrelevant to the immediate exigencies of modern history and the plight of the Palestinians, which are simply glossed over by the pro-Israel contributors.

There is a fundamental contradiction between an “indigenous community” and a “diaspora”.

The following link is the webpage from which the document cited by Evildoer can be downloaded, and includes more information. “OP 4.10-Indigenous Peoples” The World Bank. July 2005

Trask observes that “indigenous peoples are defined in terms of collective aboriginal occupation prior to colonial settlement.” She points one an important difference between indigenous history and that of settler history: settlers can claim a voluntary status-- they chose to relocate to lands where their descendants now claim a legal inheritance. Indigenous peoples have an involuntary status: their physical lives on homeland areas are tied to emergence or other creation stories. Their formal nationalities were imposed upon them by outside governments.

Additional Definitions 2. Jose Martinez Cabo's working definition of “indigenous communities, peoples and nations”:

“Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them. They form at present non-dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories, and their ethnic identity, as the basis of their continued existence as peoples, in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal system.

Evildoer187 is correct to draw attention to the portion of the above passage (my emphasis), because it brings to the fore the aspect of contemporaneity that is integral to the issue of indigeneity. He leaves out the remaining portions that indirectly relate to aspects which could be associated with oppression of the minority Palestinians residing in the Jewish state of Israel, and the Palestinians residing in the Palestinian territories.

3. “Indigenous peoples are the inheritors and practitioners of unique cultures and ways of relating to other people and to the environment. Indigenous peoples have retained social, cultural, economic and political characteristics that are distinct from those of the dominant societies in which they live. Despite their cultural differences, the various groups of indigenous peoples around the world share common problems related to the protection of their rights as distinct peoples.

--Ubikwit (talk) 16:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Comments by others about the request concerning Evildoer187

User Nishadani also violated 1RR, at least 3 times.

1. 2 3 4 Moxy, it seems that the only reason why you did not report Nishadani was because he support the same political POV as you.

It looks like the page will be locked for 2 months. I recommend leaving the West Asia section as Bedouin, Marsh Dwellers, and Samaritans, i.e. what Maunus suggested. For the time being, it's best to omit anything pertaining to Jews or Palestinians.Evildoer187 (talk) 04:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I suggest sticking with this version of the article until we reach a final agreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_indigenous_peoples&diff=527053471&oldid=527053378 Evildoer187 (talk) 04:17, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I second this suggestion very strongly. Maybe with a few additions, but absolutely excluding Israelites, Arabs, Jews and Palestinians, for the time being.HaleakalAri (talk) 04:39, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Evildoer187

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• This dispute at List of indigenous peoples seems to have the potential to run for a long time. There is endless opportunity for low-quality reasoning and original research, coupled with the word 'indigenous' which is practically a Rorschach subject to a great variety of interpretations. I would suggest placing a long period of full protection, such as two months. Meanwhile, as I scanned back through the history I found this version by Middayexpress from October which seems to be the last one prior to the current edit war. I suggest that admins restore that version while discussion proceeds on the talk page. Consider using an WP:RFC to reach agreement. There seems to be a UN definition of 'indigenous' which might be used to guide the analysis. EdJohnston (talk) 18:11, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

 Done page protection request - Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection#List of indigenous peoples.Moxy (talk) 18:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC) Removed Moxy's post here. My comment was not a request for someone to file at RFPP. It was a proposal for an admin action with which to close the present AE. The question will hopefully get more participation here before we close this. The protection would be an easy call, except it's rather long. The revert to an old version will ideally find support. EdJohnston (talk) 02:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

It appears that Evildoer187 self-reverted at least one of his changes, per his comment above. Nishidani has asked that other editors simply revert his change if he inadvertently goes past 1RR, and he has apologized for this particular lapse at this edit. He also left a comment at User talk:Evildoer187#Block talk acknowledging making 'the same slip of two reverts in 24 hours'. I left a notice at Talk:List of indigenous peoples asking for feedback about the proposal for full protection. EdJohnston (talk) 03:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Full support for the proposal for page protection at List of indigenous peoples. I think filing an RfC regarding the criteria for inclusion of a group in that list would be a very good idea as well. John Carter (talk) 18:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm closing with two months of full protection of List of indigenous peoples. I'm leaving official notices of the ARBPIA sanctions for Evildoer187 and Ubikwit. EdJohnston (talk) 18:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Thomas Basboll

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Thomas Basboll (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction being appealed

Topic ban from the subject of the September 11 attacks, imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive20#Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center, logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction

Raul654 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Thomas Basboll

I've been topic-banned from the 9/11 articles for over four years. (The ban is indefinite.) It was implemented in the early days of the WP:ARB9/11 ruling, when there was a great deal of conflict on those pages, and I've since tried to have the ban lifted on a number of occasions, without success. I recently noticed that on August 20, 2012 all mention of conspiracy theories were removed from the article about the collapse of the World Trade Center. It would seem, then, that the view that the conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9/11 should be mentioned in the articles about those events has been completely defeated at Misplaced Pages, strongly supported by arbitration enforcement. I therefore request that I be allowed to return to the topic of 9/11 (focusing on the collapse of the WTC) in order to represent this extremely marginalized view, reestablishing some balance. I emphasize that I am not intending to "push" conspiracy theories, but to argue for mentioning them, on par with their inclusion in articles on, say, the JFK assassination. At the moment, an arbitration ruling seems to have both emboldened and empowered those who hold particular views about conspiracy theories to leave Misplaced Pages's readers less informed than they could be about those theories, and the historical events they are (like it or not) an essential part of. Ironically, August 20 is the same day that Philip Roth's biographer, at Roth's request, tried to remove any mention of the theory that the The Human Stain was inspired in part by the life of Anatole Broyard. That effort was obviously misguided and he did not, of course, get his way. Respectfully, --Thomas B (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

As a standing response to the sorts of claims made by MONGO below, please see my user page, where I'm developing a statement of what my position on conspiracy theories actually is, as well as why I find Misplaced Pages interesting. MONGO presumably thinks I'm lying about my motives. I have no intention of responding to that charge.--Thomas B (talk) 13:16, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Response to Binksternet: I agree that I'm not the best person to take up this challenge. But this appeal has already had a positive effect towards establishing balance if your "see also" edit is allowed to stand. That minimal but necessary action would have (and has) until now been impossible to implement because the enforcement of ARB9/11 has given an enormous advantage to those who are against conspiracy theories (i.e., those who believe they are false and evil), over those who are neutral about them (i.e., those who simply believe they exist and are notable). It is not so much that I exhausted the patience of the community, but that the community has exhausted the patience of editors like me.

Response to Seraphimblade: Somewhat related to my response above, I agree that the case for lifting my ban specifically is not very strong. I left (refusing to further demonstrate my worth to the project) in protest over the treatment that the view I've made explicit in my request here gets at Misplaced Pages. Surely the community must understand that it risks losing the support of members whose actions it restricts with things like topic bans? Your remarks suggest that you think the original ban was wise, and on that assumption my case for appeal is quite weak. That is why I am emphasizing what seems to be the negative effect of the general policy (namely, ARB9/11) that my ban is merely one small part of. My point is that no-one who believes that 9/11 conspiracy theories are notable, in the same way that, say, JFK conspiracy theories are notable, can enjoy the work of editing Misplaced Pages. The anti-CT climate is simply too virulent, and Misplaced Pages is therefore simply not informed by that perspective. (I know a great deal about CTs, for example, and I'm not contributing that knowledge, in part because I'm not allowed to make such a contribution, and in part because, even where it's not about 9/11, I simply don't want to work under the conditions that I first experienced while working on the 9/11 pages.) That's a loss for the project, in my view. If the Committee does not see the complete removal of any mention of "controlled demolition" from the collapse of the WTC article as a loss of what could have been perfectly informative content, then I don't have much of a case.--Thomas B (talk) 07:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Reply to EdJohnston: See my replies above. In answer to your specific question, no, I don't believe there's any sort of conspiracy. There is an entirely open effort on the part of some editors to "defend" Misplaced Pages against conspiracy theorists. That struggle, while perhaps well-intentioned, is having some negative effects on the content of the articles. The opposition I've experienced has been entirely above-board and I've never had any reason to suspect that I was the victim of a conspiracy to suppress my views. It has always been very clear to my why some editors did not want me around and their collaboration on the articles was open and legitimate; it has never quite made sense to me why ArbCom would support them, however, especially given the very aggressive rhetoric they often employ. In any case, the overall effect of their efforts seems now demonstrably to make the encyclopedia less informative. As I always say, I have enough respect for the spirit of Misplaced Pages to offer my assistance in improving it, even if I'm somewhat disappointed by the reality.--Thomas B (talk) 07:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Raul654: Yes, the reason I think I should allowed to return is that the anti-conspiracy theory agenda seems to have succeeded a bit too well. (You and Mongo express the position with admirable forthrightness as usual.) So the question for the Committee to decide, as I see it, is whether the purity that you have accomplished is actually a good thing for the project in the long run. I think better articles result from editors who have learned to work constructively with editors they don't agree with. While it is difficult at times, it ensures that factual errors and misreadings of sources are spotted and corrected. It's also good to have people involved who are committed to informing the reader about what is known (even if they sometimes have an agenda). I would encourage the Committee to look at the state of the article before I arrived on the scene and compare it to the way it looked at the time I left. Then, like I say, I would encourage them to think about whether the complete cleansing of the article of any mention of CTs on August 20, was a good thing.--Thomas B (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Raul654

This user is here to do exactly one thing: promote fringe conspiracy theories. His own rationale for why we should unban him, stated on this very page, is that to go around adding conspiracy theory "mentions" to our articles. The four year topic ban hasn't taught him anything - he could not edit in any other way, so he simply left, and stayed away. As Mongo says, we have enough users here with an agenda to push, the last thing we need is another one. Raul654 (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by MONGO

A quick examination of Basbolls editing history provides proof that this editor doesn't care about Misplaced Pages...he cares about using this website to promote his conspiracy theories about 9/11 and is a self-proclaimed SPA. When Raul originally wrote his essay on Civil POV pushing, Basboll was one of if not the main editors he had in mind. It had been explained before to Basboll that his ban was merely topical, and even I encouraged him to assist in other areas...but he declined, opting instead to cease editing. We have enough editors around here with an agenda...but to remove the topic ban on a self proclaimed SPA in this matter would be preposterous.MONGO 12:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

A fair argument to lift the ban could have been presented IF Basboll had shown substantial evidence of good work in another topic area. I encouraged him to seek out other areas of the pedia where he might enjoy contributing, but as I already mentioned, he hasn't done this. I'd like to take this opportunity to once again suggest he contribute to the pedia on other topics.MONGO 17:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by A Quest for Knowledge

I'm against lifting the ban. I don't see any acknowledgement of misconduct or any indication of how they plan on avoiding problems if the ban is lifted. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Thomas Basboll

I never encountered Thomas Basboll during my 2008 GAN review of World Trade Center, because he was already banned. That was pretty much my only involvement on the general topic. After looking through some of his contributions to the topic area back then, they appear to be useful. It's hard for me to believe that not even a bare "See also" link to World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories was present at Collapse of the World Trade Center article. However, if someone is to restore a bit of balance to the article in the manner achieved at the JFK assassination and conspiracy articles, then I strongly oppose selecting a user who has previously exhausted the patience of the community. Binksternet (talk) 02:22, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment by The Devil's Advocate

Ed, I do not believe that you are providing a fair interpretation of his comments as what he said does not suggest an on-wiki conspiracy at all. People, guided by their own prejudices, are more than capable of pushing a slanted perspective in a content dispute and removing individuals who oppose them in that dispute without engaging in any unsavory collaboration. Anyone who has looked at how the various nationalist disputes play out at AE can see plain as day that the enforcement system is regularly used by one side to try and get rid of the other side. No conspiracy is required for that to transpire.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:11, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I think you violated you topic ban or maybe it was lifted?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 12:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe TDA's topic ban has expired. Tom Harrison 15:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, like two months ago.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Might I suggest that you consider replacing the topic ban with mandated external review? It has not seriously been tested and Thomas would seem to be an ideal candidate for this type of restriction as I imagine he will make use of it.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Thomas Basboll

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Thomas, one of the major concerns raised in your previous request to lift the topic ban was that you had not demonstrated convincingly, by editing in other areas unrelated to the topic banned areas, that you could edit constructively and collaboratively. Looking at your edit history, it appears you have still not addressed that concern, instead just having left the project entirely when you couldn't edit that area. Is there something I'm missing? If you've still failed to address that concern, I wouldn't be comfortable supporting any modification of the topic ban. Seraphimblade 06:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
• I hope we will be able to see a better rationale for lifting the ban. I made some suggestions over at User talk:Thomas Basboll. We would expect to hear either that the original ban was procedurally wrong, or that Thomas' approach to editing has changed since then. In the case of an indefinite topic ban a mere assurance of better behavior would not carry much weight. Agree with Seraphimblade that the lack of edits in other areas leaves us unable to perceive any progress. Some points made above by Thomas hint that POV-pushing would still be a concern if the ban is lifted. "..an arbitration ruling seems to have both emboldened and empowered those who hold particular views about conspiracy theories to leave Misplaced Pages's readers less informed than they could be about those theories". You seem to suggest that there is a conspiracy on Misplaced Pages to unfairly minimize the coverage of 9/11 conspiracy theories, and that the enforcement system is part of the problem.EdJohnston (talk) 06:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I struck out part of my post above, after seeing responses by Thomas and TDA. You are not claiming at all that this cooperation by a group of editors occurs in secret, so 'conspiracy' is not apt. What Thomas wrote is

"It has always been very clear to my why some editors did not want me around and their collaboration on the articles was open and legitimate; it has never quite made sense to me why ArbCom would support them, however, especially given the very aggressive rhetoric they often employ. In any case, the overall effect of their efforts seems now demonstrably to make the encyclopedia less informative."

This suggests to me not only that you want your ban lifted, but you think that WP:ARB911 was wrongly decided. Since the mission of this noticeboard is to enforce whatever remedies are on the books, this is not a place where ARB911 can be overturned. EdJohnston (talk) 18:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)