Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MarshallBagramyan (talk | contribs) at 05:21, 21 March 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Hey everyone, I think we can still expand and improve the wording in this article. I've noticed there have been some revisions over the past few days. It'd be nice to post here what exactly that you changed just so we don't have to read the entire article to find changes. Hey Tigran. --MarshallBagramyan 21:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yair Auron

Thanks for the reference. I still believe (in fact i'm confidant) that this is a fabrication. I will get back to this article after I thouroughly research the matter and present my references.--Eupator 18:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Auron's source comes from an American historian named Alexander Dallin from his book German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945: A Study in Occupation Policies (London and Basingstoke: Macmillan, 1981, second edition) pp. 229, 251.--MarshallBagramyan 04:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This article was made for a purpose

I felt justification of the Armenian Legion throughout the whole article. An attempt to prove them innocent while throwing a stone at Muslims and Turkics.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Justification for what? That is a grossly vague and ambiguous comment. Many Red Army soldiers volunteered to serve in the German Wehrmacht, they were called "Ostruppen" or "East troops" since many of them were from the Baltics, the Ukraine and the other parts of Eastern Europe. The fact that some of them were Armenians makes them no different than French legions defending Berlin in 1945. The Armenian legion was nothing but a logistical and an anti-aircraft battalion in Netherlands, nothing significant about them.

And I'm growing tired of policing you around while you constantly vandalize one Armenian related topic after another without giving any sufficent reasons for them. There are rules on Misplaced Pages, like assume good faith. I'm trying to assume good faith here because I know articles are never perfect and need outside editing anf fixing but you come off as just another paranoid Turk who thinks there's an Armenian conspiracy against Turks and Turkic people. --MarshallBagramyan 21:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

No actually I am policing you and I am not being paranoid. I don't think you meant to offend Muslims or Turks with that quote, you just want everyone to think of Armenians as righteous people... even when they are cooperating with Nazis. I think the only person who has issues with Muslims here is Yair Auron.--Kagan the Barbarian 22:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

That's because throughout history Armenians have been a peaceful, benevolent people which have contributed heavily into works of art and beauty not destruction. That quote in no way should offend Muslims as Eupator and others were inquiring more into what units Hitler trusted and those were Muslims such as the Croats and other Balkan battalions he created. Its a simple truth Adolf Hitler professed to his aides and just because it sounds offending doesn't make it any less true. There's no use in denying that Turkey too, had signed several agreements with Nazi Germany for bilateral cooperation and trade and even copy-cat Nazi uniform designs at the time. But that's not the issue here, you're only advancing in what YOU think is a POV problem, not what it really.

And Yair Auron's quote comes from an American historian, read his book and understand that he is quite an amiable writer who researches the sociological aspects of the Genocide. --MarshallBagramyan 23:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Armenians like you are doing great damage to Misplaced Pages NPoV, you are pushing Armenian PoV everywhere. I won't even get into Turkey's neutrality during WWII. Trade agreements? Pfftt, like they mean anything. What about USA-Nazi trade agreements until WWII broke? For example the Ford Motor Company did business in Germany until US entered the war. What about neutral Sweden supplying the Nazis with iron during the war, the most precious element for any war machine. What about the Swiss accepting all the blood stained Nazi money in their banks? USA even granted American citizenship to SS scientists after WWII. Current Pope even is a former SS member. And I am sure there were Armenians who were more than happy to cooperate with the Nazis despite your efforts here to portray all of them as Oscar Schindler.

The truth is the word Nazi today is being used to associate events or people with evil. Nazis are no longer humans gone mad in history but biblical demons from the past. That's why today every group who had something to do with them tries to prove themselves innocent while accusing their enemies or opponents of being Nazi perpetrators in order to hurt their image.

Anyway back to what matters here, I would like to know American writer's sources for knowing such a quote from Hitler; I would like to know if it is sourced or attributed. If attributed then by who.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Trading between a car company (Ford) and trade with a neutral country (Sweden) is much less disparaging than the actually signing of a friendship treaty with Nazi Germany. Some Turkish university professors went so far as to even copy and make mock swastikas and preach anti-semitic ideals and glorification of the Nazi doctrine.

Turkey was hardly a neutral member in World War II. In name perhaps, but in practice, it was just as ready to declare war on the Soviet Union if Stalingrad would fall and march into the heart of Armenia and connect with Azerbaijan. Perhaps this should be included also but one of the people like Dro formulated an Armenian volunteer division was to liberate Armenia from Stalin's grip and to quickly move in and defend any aggressive advances made by the Turkish army in the event Stalingrad would fall. The quote, I now believe to be suspect but I want it to remain until I can check up Dallin's source.

I'm removing the POV tag also since you honestly have no comprehension of its purpose.--MarshallBagramyan 21:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are deliberately diverting the discussion. Using shallow and simple accusations and speculations to blur the subject. Without citing sources, I can say Armenians were trying to convince Stalin to declare war on Turkey or Armenians were very happy with getting rid of Jews or Armenians are behind 9/11. See, it is easy. As we say in Turkish, "Throw a mud at someone, its stain will remain"

Anyway, you still haven't given me any sources for the quote or told me anything about any major disobedience within the legion that supports the quote. Look, I am sure there were some Armenians who helped or tried to help the Jews but there were 18,000 of them according to the information you gave and my sources tell me some of them were in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern Legions fighting the partisans. I would like to hear more about these rather than a fabricated quote. Make informative, fair, NPoV articles. If you find me pushing Turkish POV, tell me.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Deliberately diverting the discussion? Excuse me but it is not me who is visiting every article and crying "bias!" in Armenian-related issues. These are hardly "shallow" accusations. While the first premise is correct that several Armenians lobbied Stalin to fight and take back Kars and Ardahan from Turkey (the British eventually stopped them and so did the Americans when they formed close ties later on) the latter one with Jews and 9/11 and Armenians makes me question your intelligence and integrity to issues.

Turkey signed a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany on 18 June 1941. Turkey had earlier signed an agreement to entering war on the allied side with the French and British in 1939 but this new treaty just went to show that it was more closer fascist Germany than democratic Britain.

"The first was the revival of pan-Turkism....resurfaced in July 1941 under the leadership of professor Zeki Velidi Togan of Istanbul University. Unashamedly racist, in imitation of the Nazis its leaders adopted the trappings of Fascism, down to an imitation-Hitler hairstyle and colourful uniform."

• Henderson, Alexander. January 1945. "The Pan-Turanian Myth in Turkey Today", Asiatic Review, vol. XLI, pp. 88–92

On August 5 1941 German ambassador to Turkey Franz von Papen reported to Berlin that Turkish government "were showing increasing interest in the fate of their kinsmen, 'particularly the Azerbaijan Turks" showing proof Turkey was also determined to invade the Soviet Union in the case of a German victory. He continued:

These circles tend to recollect 1918 events: their wish is to annex the above area, especially the rich Baku oil fields. To these ends a committee of experts has been set up, embodying specialists who once officiated in this type of work during Abdul Hamid's time. This committee is to gather all pertinent material and is to enlist, in Turkey from the ranks of recent emigrants, and from immigrants – notably those in the Azerbaijan province of Iran – support for a union of the new Turkey with the Turk-inhabited regions bordering on it in the east, up to the Caspian sea.

Hostler C. W., "Turkism and the Soviets" New York, 1957, page 172

And of course after the Red Army defeated the Germans in Stalingrad these fasicistic notions were sent back to the filing cabinet.

Although Armenians may have been assimilated into battalions or sent into even smaller regiments I want to see what proof you have to show me. Obviously Hitler's quote sounds questionable but to call it a "fabrication" without citing any proof to the contrary is not bounds for "POV problems" (Auron's source came from a letter that he recieved by a Dutch historian who cited Dallin in his essay to Auron). You are claiming that what is listed in the article is false and hence, the burden of proof lies upon you to disprove it. --MarshallBagramyan 20:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Same old, same old Bagramyan. These are all shallow methods to divert and blur subjects of discussions. You are trying to turn this into a discussion about Turkey. For every sentence I write on this subject, you'll write 5 times more, and at the end you hope my main question will be forgotten. I'll say one thing about this which I am sure you'll counter with 10, during WWII the world hardly knew anything about the fate of Jews; Nazi crimes were later documented and the horrors were revealed. So right now you have access to various sources of information about this subject but people of those times didn't. And don't underestimate the power of Nazi propaganda machine, still today they are considered masters of manipulation.

Anyway, back to the real topic, you haven't given me anything to disprove. I need sources for the quote and if not, we should say it is attributed. Also if there is no record of major disobedience within the Armenian legion, excuse me but it highly increases the chances of that quote being fabricated.--Kagan the Barbarian 21:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Look Kagan, when you raise the issue of a discrepancy I don't shun you and say "Ahh Kagan you're just delusional, go away, you're just an ignoramus." No, I don't. When you casually pass off damning information that concludes that Nazi-Turkish friendship was very close during World War II then that tells me you don't like to hear factual, disparaging things about Turkey. As a Turk it may hurt to hear such a thing but Nazi propaganda has nothing to do with this, you only wish and believe it does. You are the one ignoring my evidence Kagan, don't complain to me if you dislike what you read and hear.

The burden of proof lies on you Kagan. I didn't raise the issue of POV problems with the article, you did. If there is something truly wrong with the article then show me impartial proof that disproves the facts in said article. Concerning Hitler's quote, it is found in Auron's book when he speaks about the Armenian Legion; wherein he cites his source: an essay sent by his Dutch historian friend where the Dutchman cites Dallin in the text. I cannot make it any more clearer for you as to where my source was found.Seeing as neither you nor Eupator has yet to offer me the evidence to the contrary, the quotation remains where it is. Until then, when you raise an objection, cite proof that shows clear evidence to the contrary.

If you remain mute upon the topic and don't give me anything to work with you cannot possibly fault me for inactivity. Information on the topic is scarce, especially in Western studies where apparently the 812th is most significant and notable.--MarshallBagramyan 21:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing in Turkish-Nazi Germany relations that shame me because unlike you they didn't see Schindler's List. What I find amusing is while we have 18,000 Armenians on one hand, first person witnesses and cooperators in Nazi crimes, you defend them here yet on the other hand we have citizens of Turkey who knew nothing about what was going on in Europe at the time other than what they heard on the radio or what they were told and yet you are desperately trying to make them look like Nazi perpetrators here. Sorry pal, Turkey did a fine job keeping itself neutral during WWII, and thanks to that it became a refuge for many Jews in the Balkans and Greek islands; I am sure they are all very thankful Turkey did not enter WWII and did everything necessary to keep itself out, more than 100,000 Jews were saved in Turkey, never forget that. What about Armenia? Armenians ironically are not only cooperators in Nazi crimes but also Soviet. You think I'll pass Stalin as a saint? Definitely not, Stalin is unarguably Hitler with a more manly moustache.

Once again back to the real topic. A historians words can not be considered a source for a quote, it needs to show records, that how we know a quote is sourced. Do you want me to explain? Video footage, authentic papers, audio record; these are what we consider a source for words that came out of a wo/man's mouth or hand. Also you still haven't said anything about the Armenian troops who actively fought in Slovenia and Italy and it goes unmentioned in the article.

You as well as I know this article was written for a purpose and it is definitely Armenian PoV.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

You keep speaking about these crimes the Armenian soldiers committed but I'm dumbfounded as to why you have refrained from displaying them. Show me, reveal to me the source and I'll judge if its worthy in adding the additional information. How can I defend their "crimes" if I have no idea what crimes you are even talking about. The testimonies from the Jewish POWs come from interviews and so are more difficult to discredit.

Even your claim that "Turkey was a haven for Jews during the war" is misleading. Several times Turkey refused to accept Jews into their country and in times when it did, it was because the Jews had Turkish citizenship.

Your analogy in comparing Armenians' brutality to Stalin's rank is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Everyone in the Soviet Union was persecuted by Stalin and Armenians were no exception. If you disagreed with Stalin or were suspected to, then you would be tortured and killed. You are truly revealing that you too, have POV problems and are pushing it to villify Armenians and equate to the rank of Nazis. 500,000 Armenians fought for the Soviet Union during the war, over half did not return. There were 4 Armenian Marshals including one Admiral and over 60 generals during the war. Armenian soldiers liberated Auschwitz, stormed the Reichstag and captured Berlin.

Can Turkey ever claim such honors?

Yair Auron is a scholar and its up the job of a scholar to cross reference his resources. I can go back and check his sources but you have yet to present me any evidence of the contrary which nullifies and deteriorates the integrity of your claims. I am unbeknownest of the activity or even the existence of Armenian soldiers in Slovenia and elsewhere but since you brought them up, then show me something about them. I don't have any sources on them, you do, so you reveal to me your sources are and I'll take a look at it.

Look, I'm tired of putting up with you because you have been all talk and allegations since I met you. I tried to understand your arguments but all you do is cry "POV problems" then go on to claim something then abstain from substantiating said claim. If you have nothing to add except allegations, then why continue this insipid debate? --MarshallBagramyan 20:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Did I write Armenians committed crimes? No, I wrote Armenians cooperated in Nazi crimes. Can you deny this? There were 18,000 serving in the Wehrmacht, that in English dictionary is cooperation. And I gave you links, especially the one written in Russian or Armenian seems to be a good source, read it -because I don't know either language- and please share with me the information. I personally would like to know more about the Armenians who fought in Slovenia and Italy. Some may saved some Jews, I praise them but hell, I am sure there were many officers in the Wehrmact who in some way helped the Jews or the Slavs or other people but that is not the case for entire German Army, is it?

Let's face it. If Germany declared war on Turkey, they would eventually invade at least a portion of Western Turkey, where nearly all Turkish Jewish population -more than 100,000- was located. And we both know their fate wouldn't be too different than that of Greek Jews. Now, of course Turkey wouldn't want to openly provoke the beast that is Nazi Germany, by officialy accepting non-Turkish citizen Jews fleeing from the SS during WWII. But we all know they turned a blind eye to illegal transport of Jews in to Turkey. I am not saying Turks are saints but this is what happened or would happen if Turkey entered the war so let's be honest about it. Some links: , , .

Armenian soldiers -generals, marshalls, admirals- helped Stalin replace Fascism with Communism. The true freedom to Europe came from Allied forces. Yes Turkey doesn't share Soviet honor of replacing one evil with another but they take pride in fighting the communists in the Korean War. Where the Turkish brigade infamously secured UN forces a safe retreat to Pyon-Yang during the Kunuri Battle, which includes charging the enemy uphill with bayonets, , .

I am asking for simple things from you, Bagramyan. If you can show a true source for Adolph Hitler's quote then of course it should stay the way it is, otherwise the quote can still remain but please mention it is attributed to Hitler by an American historian and there were actually no major disobedience in the legion that supports such quote.

As for my sources, well they are the links I posted below to Moosh88. In the first, which is a forum, a user mentions Armenians fighting the partisans in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern legions. Of course I am sure you won't look into it to see if it is true.

Who is adding allegations? Who brought up Turkish-Nazi affairs as if it has something to do with this? And now I am the POV pusher? Make this article NPOV or I'll make my own research and rewrite this article. And yes I can.--Kagan the Barbarian 10:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The German Wehrmacht could not be regarded as a perpetrator of Nazi crimes; that dubious honor was bestowed upon by SS units who took an oath to carry out the ideals of Nazism. Nearly all of the Wehrmacht generals and field marshals were devoted to the traditional Prussian tradition dating back to the 19th century and hence, were much more benevolent and committedto fighting a "clean" war. Most of the German soldiers in the Wehrmacht did not even belong to the Nazi party or subscribe to its ideals and were in a sense, doing their "patriotic" duty. Whereas the SS took the crux of the crimes and atrocities on behalf of Nazi Germany. Using your logic, I can now villify all soldiers who took up arms in the Wehrmacht: the Finns, the Ukranians, the Baltic countries, the French, the Austrians, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Poles, the Croats, etc. etc. But that doesn't make sense does it? To have even mildly criticized the Nazis in the occupied territrories would have been suicide.

Soviet military commanders had no choice, that includes Armenians, Azeris, Ukranians, Russians and Georgians. What part don't you understand? "You don't want to command? Fine, we'll shoot you first and then we'll pick the next person in line for your job. He doesn't want to do it either? Fine, shoot him and pick the next person in line." Stalin was bad, but in a time where Nazism had vowed to destroy the Slavs at the same time, and was invading the USSR, people forgot about the grievances of communism and united to fight back and destroy the truer evil in Germany. Armenians were described as the most patriotic and devoted republic of the entire USSR by one BBC commentator in 1942.

Yes, I've heard of the Turkish feats in the Korean War but even then that can viewed as Turkey attempting to tout aide from the Western powers and to create an impression for the United Nations. I brought up Turkey's relations to Nazi Germany when you began mentioning so and so many Jews were rescued by a benevolent Turkey. I went onto show that Turkey's ambitions were far more nefarious and this included in siding with Nazi Germany for a possible invasion into the USSR, thus reviving Pan-Turanist ideals.

I've stated it before, I'll look into Auron's source on Hitler's quote and search out for the book itself but asides from that POV problems with this article are non-existant. Hitler's quote refers to the reluctance of accepting the creation of an Armenian battalion; perhaps he may have changed his views later on, perhaps not. And, I'm not going to take the word of some obscure forum and an Armenian created website.

How credible would it be to use that kind of information on Misplaced Pages? I want citations from book, citations from a war journal or something reputable. Joris Versteeg, the historian from Auron's book furthermore cites the details of the 812th from the director of the West German military archives, J. Hoffman in the book Kaukasien 1942/1943 Das Deustche Heer und die Orientvolker der Sovjetunion (Freiburg 1991). Show me some better resources and we'll see how far we can go. If you cannot then this article remains virtually unchanged.--MarshallBagramyan 19:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Still, it doesn't make them murderers but it does make them cooperators. I am not saying villify the Armenian legion here but don't try to picture all 18,000 of them as saints either. It is an insult to the intelligence of people reading it.

Marshall Bagramyan, on your user page, doesn't look very uncomfortable of being a Soviet general to me. As much as I know, Armenian relations with the Soviet authority wasn't really that bad as you make it sound. Anyway, Soviets did save the Slavs from a greater evil but my point was, after all they weren't saints either. So in both occasions, Armenians cooperated -or had to cooperate- with Nazis and Soviets.

Turkey sent troops to Korea for a reason like every other nation, this is how international politics work, what do you think this is? Stalin's Soviets were the enemy and it was right at Turkey's door, of course they had to make an impression in Korea. Still, soldiers on the battlefield care little about politics and what the Turkish brigade achieved is admirable.

Many Jews were saved in Turkey. And I am talking about Jews who already lived in Turkey for centuries. When I see Greeks and Armenians accuse Turkey of not joining WWII, I wonder if they really care about what its consequences would be. And this Pan-Turanism thing is ridicilous, a speculation mostly believed by Armenians and isn't even worth discussing here.

Back to the article. I think we need a "neutrality and factual accuracy" tag for the page. Fac. acc. for the quote and neutrality for the rest of the article. And I don't consider books more reliable sources than webpages, even books need to cite sources.

Anyway, see you in the future Bagramyan.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Throughout the war, Turkey walked a tightrope, balancing the needs and expectations of the Nazis against those of the Allies. While Istanbul was a center of spying and intrigue during the war, Turkey took no overt action against the Nazis, and in turn the Nazis never violated Turkey’s borders. In October 1941, Turkey signed an important trade agreement with Germany. In exchange for raw material, especially chromium, Germany would supply Turkey with war materials and other finished goods. Turkey’s chromium was critical for the Nazis as it was their sole source for the vital element in steel making. Albert Speer stated that Turkey’s chromium was so vital to the Nazis that war production would come to a complete stop 10 months after the supply was cut off.

Take a look at this link. http://www.hellenicnews.com/readnews.html?newsid=2554〈=US--Moosh88 20:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Moosh, very unbiased. Hellenic News, my daily source of information about Turks as well.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Moosh88

You can't remove the POV tag untill the dispute is over. If this article isn't Armenian PoV, I don't know what is. It consists of 5% information about legions structure, 95% about how actually they were anti-Nazi at heart, as if we can say that for a legion of thousands that served in the German Wehrmacht. I did some research and some suggest they fought in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern Legions, also someone mentions this site but I don't know Armenian so .

Also the quote from Adolph Hitler needs to cite sources, otherwise it has to be mentioned that the quote is attributed to Adolph Hitler by an American historian (Alexander Dallin). I'd also like to know if there were any major rebellions or disobedience within the Armenian Legion that supports this quote. Thank you.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with you on this my barbarian friend from Altai. I believe the quotes attributed to Hitler are total fabrications. I suggest you make an article about the various Turkic Nazi legions in order to display what a similar article shoudl look like. Also shouldn't you add this tag to Georgian Legion ?--Eupator 21:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is I don't know anything about Turkic Legions except that they existed as a part of the Eastern Legions. Even if I made the page, trust me I wouldn't put stuff like, "Hitler once said "God, these Turks sure love Jews. I don't trust them one bit, Himmler, write down my words so everybody in the future will know I didn't trust Turks and they can't be held responsible for my evil actions" or "Turkic legion did nothing wrong, they usually missed their targets deliberately or faked shooting by shouting "BLAM BLAM" and saved hundreds of Jews and partisans, God bless them."

If you found Georgian Legion un-neutral then put the tag and tell them your reasons. I don't know anything about the subject. Cheers Armenian brother!--Kagan the Barbarian 09:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Deletion of Turkish article by johnstevens

Give us some better information from some immpartial and neutral sources Steven.

Thanks --MarshallBagramyan 05:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)