Talk:Adam Kokesh - Misplaced Pages

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Revamp

This is response to the unwarranted "revert" attempt by a certain user. I have edited the article in purely productive manner. I have replaced several dead links with alternative and archived links (this required a lot of time/effort on my part). I have cleaned up certain areas and added newer citations to them. I have also added a "Personal background" section, where I have moved the info about his father, and added more info on background and family. I have also decided to break up and divide the "Protest activities" section into smaller sub-sections divided by year. And plan to add a few more protest events to that list/section. DA1 16:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Please do not be offended by a revert of your changes. I suggest you make the changes in smaller increments so that other editors can easily see what you've done and how you have rearranged content. IfThe edits can be unclear or time-consuming to decipher when many small changes are done in a single edit and general summary. Also please discuss content and edits and avoid references to other editors. Thank you. SPECIFICO talk 17:32, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I actually tried to include larger swathes per edit, because I've seen in the past how certain users advise to use "show preview" section rather than making individual edits. I will try to be more descriptive in my edit summaries. However, I would like you to preview/analyze my edits and see if i removed anything of importance or not. I can assure you, I only added info, rearranged certain info, and mostly replaced/added links and cite. There were a lot of dead citations, and formatting inconsistencies, I spent last night and this morning fixing that. DA1 (talk) 17:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

To be frank, my level of interest in this article is not high enough to warrant the time it would take me to sort through a single compound edit. My quick impression is that some of your edits are constructive and add significant information but that others make the narrative obscure and take a somewhat promotional non-encyclopedic tone and style of language. Anyway, I think many smaller edits would engage more feedback for your work here, and please be mindful not to introduce "peacock" evaluative, or promotional language into the article. SPECIFICO talk 17:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

DA1: Not everyone defines peacock language the same. FYI. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 23:22, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Excessive Detail and Narrative Style

The recent additions, particularly the sections captioned by year, have the tone of a real-time narrative or script rather than an encyclopedic summary of notable events. I think some condensation and removal of inessential detail would help this new content deliver the important facts more clearly. Also, some of the references do not appear to be WP:RS for the content cited to them, e.g. International Business Times "Rally a Success..." SPECIFICO talk 03:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

While year sections probably are not necessary and poorly sourced information should removed. But International Business Times is a perfectly good source. Any others problematic? The purpose of wikipedia is to share relevant information, including about notable people. I think a proper rendition of the VFW commander comments belongs there, if not necessarily as its own section. Just haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 03:54, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of whether there is some RS journalism published on the IBT website, the cited web page is opinion and promotion and is not RS news reporting: . SPECIFICO talk 12:11, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

From the author's description on IBT sounds more like that was a journalistic report, if rather enthusiastic. The next sentence ref is the problematic one. I've encouraged the editor whose been active here to come join the discussion since this except for watching out for actual BLP violations I'm not heavily invested in this article. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽

Please elaborate your concern. I may not fully engage in discussion today (if its long), as I'm kind of busy, but I will eventually get around to answering it by tomorrow night for sure. DA1 (talk) 20:10, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I actually read all of your comments. For some reason I only read Moore's comment and missed Specifico's. Yes, i concur with the other user that IBTimes is reliable. Also, i have been doing extensive research and comparison between sources/links before deciding to use one to a given line on the article. And what I've seen, some of the other articles out there are more fluffed up than this one you may have concern over (which i believe is unwarranted as is). I know for a fact that around 500 people attended, 300+ of whom were veterans (this is based on numerous YT statements by Kokesh himself). However, some of the other articles out there (and not many articles out there, the incident was very under-reported) state either NO attendance-figures or that over the thousands. IBTimes, actually mentioned a reliable attendance number without exaggeration or non-specificity. Also, calling something a "success" doesn't make it "opinion and promotion", it may have implied what the organizers for the event considered it to be (a success). DA1 (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I also would like to state, my style may seem un-preferable by some, but I'm willing to modify that as i go along. However, what matters most is the encyclopedic content, and not the narration per se. My whole aim is to clean up the article (which I've done) and continue to include relevant content throughout the years (that have been missed). As for me assigning "years", I did so as part of cleaning up the section. There were already numerous examples/events listed, and I figured it would be best to divide them by year, so as to be easier for readers and newer edits can be made in chronological order (which is seemed to lack in some respects, previously). DA1 (talk) 20:30, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

{{od}Whether such an event is a success is a matter of opinion, not fact. For whatever reason, the page cited is opinion, praise and promotion. The IBT and this writer may from time to time do journalistic news reporting, but this ain't it. An attendance figure, on the other hand, seems like a fact that could be reported here if well-sourced. 500 people attended the press conference when Anthony Weiner resigned his Congressional seat, but it was not a "success." I am not criticizing your effort to add fact here, however some of it may be challenged when it lacks proper sources and some of it may be copy edited for style or excessive detail. I'm not anticipating spending much of my time here, but those will be the issues that I would expect future editors to work on. SPECIFICO talk 20:45, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I suggested exactly that, that its a matter of opinion ("success"), and fortunately you will see that matter of POV is not present within my edits to the Wiki article itself. Opinion stayed within the opinion piece, if that is what you consider it. According to Misplaced Pages: RS#Biased or opinionated sources, an opinionated source does Not make it unreliable. I have made sure to that, and my edits were completely neutral. And the only thing being put into question here is a "title" of the article and not what's within it, because that seemed rather neutral as well. I only cared for the content source, not the persuasion. Being a niche event, the options are limited and the alternatives are even more "opinionated". Also, IBTimes is a genuine newspaper thats circulated in NY, its not a tabloid. DA1 (talk) 20:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and switched the link to an alternative cite. However, i would still reiterate Misplaced Pages does not require sources to be neutral, only its own wiki articles. Though i also dispute that source was somehow opinionated anyways. DA1 (talk) 21:07, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Still promotional not factual. WP requires sources either to be factual, to be cited as the opinion of the author, or to represent broadly held opinion that is documented as such. This one doesn't qualify. SPECIFICO talk 21:15, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I heavily dispute this claim. And am open to a third-party to look into the sources, and arbitrate whether it is factual or not. I also dispute the assertion that somehow the source author is just making stuff up, just because you think its "promotional". The assertion is ridiculous, and IBTimes has nothing to gain nor any affiliation from such a venture. DA1 (talk) 21:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

1.The assertion that "successful" is opinion and evaluation is true on its face. "Successful" is not an objective factual report. It is not that the reporter "made stuff up" as in misstating fact, it's that he stated his evaluation or opinion in a linguistic and reportorial format as if it were fact. 2. Good idea to get more editors looking at this, maybe post on RS board asking for comment. Also maybe post on various projects relating to journalism. 3. Tabloids most certainly do have something to gain by enthusiastically inflating the significance of the events about which they write. Think about it. I don't think you really believe the supermarket tabloids have nothing to gain by running stories claiming some movie star was impregnated by a runaway elephant or some politician was abducted by the little people from Pluto. Of course they have something to gain, otherwise we would not have lousy journalism all around us. If nothing else they save on the staff time, expense, and payroll of enforcing legitimate journalistic standards and practices. SPECIFICO talk 22:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

This back and forth between us is redundant and i was hoping for a third-party to give their take. And the purported "subjective" nature of the source material is irrelevant as per Wikpedia:RS rules, only the wiki article is required to be neutral and not the source material (although i still insist the material is infact neutral). Furthermore, i have already received recommendation from a Misplaced Pages moderator to use the article that you are attempting to shoot down: http://en.wikipedia.org/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist#examiner.com_article_on_Ron_Paul_march — DA1 (talk) 22:15, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

This is not a battle. Nobody is shooting here. I urge you to read your link RE:RS biased sources. It's not about stating opinion as if it were fact. What does it mean to say that something is "successful" without specifying successful at what or in accomplishing what end? BTW, it would be more productive, to say the least, if you announce here that you are seeking a third opinion. Others will help you to find the proper venue and to provide as much background information as possible on all sides. SPECIFICO talk 22:51, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I just took a look at the link you cited on the spam noticeboard. That's hardly an opinion on the issues under discussion here. Please be careful to state such matters clearly and accurately. SPECIFICO talk 22:57, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Just because the reporter calls it successful in his opinion, doesn't mean you can't state facts. It's not like "success" is such an extra-ordinarly high bar anyway; in protest terms it merely means enough people showed up to make the point organizers wanted to make (and get covered at least by IBT times). It does not mean that the protest made some big change in policy or headlines all over the country. Few protests are that successful! I think the larger community would agree that a not terribly controversial opinion ("success in protesting") does not obviate the facts presented by an award winning professional journalist. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 02:27, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of headlines all over the country, just searched his name in news.google and, not unexpectedly, quite a bit of commentary on his gun march - and 4000+ people signing up. (WP:COI??? I talked to him just once in 2007 at/after a demo - thus the photo I added to page a while back. Otherwise, just watching the passing parade.) Don't quite have energy to read and add anything from the various articles at this point. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 02:52, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The reporter did not "call it successful in his opinion." He stated it was successful as if that were fact, but without defining what was meant by that term, which is an evaluation not a description. Please check the definition of obviate -- your meaning is not clear. The fact that the journalist won an award for other unrelated work is irrelevant. If you have a better source for description or properly attributed reaction to this event, that would resolve the problem. SPECIFICO talk 02:55, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I cut down the unnecessary detail. And added a better ref here. Easier to search than discuss most of the time anyway :-) CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 04:16, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I know its not a "battle",but that's exactly what it seemed here, when you argue back/forth because of a single source which was not even cited for its opinion but its recording of events. I second Carolmoordc's opinions. I also have observed most of the newer edits to the article, and say that I am perfectly comfortable with them. Some of them, i would have eventually made myself. I will, however, make some minor edits.DA1 (talk) 13:56, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

sources

I am really beginning to questions User:SPECIFICO's narrow and selective interpretation of the Wiki Reliable Sources guidelines. For example, he goes on about how "opinion" cannot be used as RS, even though wiki clearly guidelines that you can indeed use opinionated articles to cite sources. And now he has begun to claim that twitter feeds are impermissible, another unfound claim that is contradicted here: Misplaced Pages:External_links/Perennial_websites#Twitter and also here Misplaced Pages:RS#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves. You may indeed use self-published sources (including Twitter/FB feeds) to verify a claim that is about the author in question. DA1 (talk) 14:48, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

You're repeating misconceptions to which I already responded above. Please have another look at my comments above and re-read the relevant WP policies. It's not that Twitter can never be used, but the use which I removed is not consistent with WP policy. Please give a look at the detail in the relevant policies. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 15:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Let's assume that twitter is not allowed as a source. In that case, why remove the statement as well? The statement is true and that has been shown. If in such case, there remains the persistence to remove the initial statement itself (irrespective of the eligibility of the source, as long the as source itself is verified), then that would imply a political/interest bias and not merely a matter of protocol. So may the statement remain, until it has been resolved (when we find an alternative source). DA1 (talk) 08:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so you have once again removed the statement from the article that he is an anti-zionist whilst claiming that it is unsourced and controversial? So you are pretending that this never happened, that you did not see me source the twitter citation the first time around? I am for certain now, that there is a clear interest/political bias from your accord. 19:18, 26 May 2013 (UTC)DA1 (talk)

Behind on commenting here, but as I said on the WP:DRN Tweet says: "Many of "my people" are anti-zionist. C'mon! Jews can be voluntarists too!" It is rather ambiguous since he's describing others and not being explicit about his own views. I'd like to see him make a clear statement, but this is not it. It just takes too much WP:Synthesis interpretation to say it means he himself is an anti-Zionist, though my personal guess he is (and of course that itself can have a very broad interpretation). He should write a detailed blog and resolve the issue :-) CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 19:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Source needed for this quote of Kokesh, deleted as unsourced, so that it can be returned to article text

There he stated, "While it is our responsibility now to resist tyranny civilly, while we still can, there may come a time when we will say to the powers that be, be it with your blood or ours we have come to water the tree of liberty … who will stand with me?" Removed pending verification --— Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs) 16:49, 18 May 2013‎ (UTC)

The verification is a couple of youtube videos of the talk, but not from his channel (at least couldn't find with a search; maybe I did it wrong). And I didn't feel like a) listening and getting time stamp and b) thinking about/arguing whether or not it was a primary source quote, though I do know it has been quoted on a number of not very WP:RS sites. But if someone else wants to weigh through all that, go for it. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Removed unsourced claim

I removed the sentence about Kokesh and others being targeted for arrest, because the only source for that paragraph, from US News, does not make that claim. RNealK (talk) 19:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

His "political party" bar in the infobox says he's Republican. That is not entirely true, he was Republican during his 2010 congressional run only. There is also a religion bar that says he's "Jewish", he is actually atheist but ethnically Jewish. There are numerous mentions of it, including this video where it is a more prominent subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUfWlf2xNY (00:40 sec). DA1 (talk) 08:16, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

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