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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Phoenix and Winslow (talk | contribs) at 13:43, 29 May 2013 (→Tag Team Question: "arrangement"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

More concrete evidence?

The RfC/U states "He adds negative material to articles about conservative political figures and organizations, no matter how trivial or irrelevant it might be, or how much it employs fallacies such as guilt by association; and he removes negative content about progressive political figures and organizations." Diffs of such behavior should be presented. Having a generic call for "Any Editor: Please provide any evidence here. Will work on formatting the evidence as it builds." is not an appropriate substitute. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 09:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about others, but I'm here just help give Xenophrenic a nudge to change their behavior a little. The 10 day snapshot from one article that I was forced to build at ANI (which someone linked here) give a really good glimpse. The nature of the behavior is the sum of the parts, not any individual really bad items. What would you want......a list of their last 1,000 edits, and notes showing that 90% are relentlessly towards tilting articles towards one particular end of the political spectrum? Would Xenophrenic want someone to make that effort? My own hope is just saying enough here to convince Xenophrenic to change a bit, NOT enough to get them in trouble. Unless someone forces the latter by declaring that any input without the latter is illegitimate. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a quote from WP:TE: "Thus a single edit is unlikely to be a problem, but a pattern of edits displaying a bias is more likely to be an issue, and repeated biased edits to a single article or group of articles will be very unwelcome indeed." As the WP:TE policy confirms, looking at a diff of a single edit by Xeno isn't going to prove anything. Looking, with enormous patience and diligence, through 100 diffs of 100 different edits by Xeno might adequately convey what he's doing. Four different editors have given summaries of Xeno's behavior, or endorsed such summaries, and found that behavior to be problematic. Xeno, rather than participating, is attempting to get the RfC/U deleted by edit-warring it into the "Candidates" section rather than the "Certified" section. This is actually a pretty good example of his editing style. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

With the risk of sounding pedantic, proving that a pattern of edits exists requires listing some sample edits from said pattern. Your presentation of evidence against Xenophrenic was found by Arbitrators to be lacking substance. Simply copying your assertions from there over here--which is what the bulk of the evidence presented insofar consists of--isn't likely to convince many uninvolved editors either. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 00:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

@5.12.68.204 - Thanks for asking for evidence. Looking at the responses that follow from North and P&W, it doesn't appear likely we're going to see any. There is a tendency to cite the WP:TE essay as a free pass to cast aspersions without having to produce substantiation. They misrepresent it as a license to not have to cite even a single "biased edit". They conveniently overlook the fact that the essay also defines tendentious editing as "not conforming to the neutral point of view" policy, which, if it is actually occurring, can always be demonstrated through the citation of diffs.

@North - Tell me something, if I wanted you to change your behavior of repeatedly beating your wife, but you denied doing it, how productive do you think my nudging you to change your behavior "just a little" would be? Would you stop beating your wife if I said that I otherwise liked you? Would you stop beating your wife if I said I thought your repeated wife beatings were "not a big deal"? What would be the best way to get you to stop beating your wife; behavior that you deny?

@P&W - Please understand that editing toward NPOV and against your personal POV is not tendentious editing. Disagreeing with your personal POV is not against policy. Yes, 4 editors, all presently on the same side in an ongoing content dispute, have have all whispered the same allegations without substantiation. (Yes, I've looked closely at the few diffs on the RFC/U page.) That doesn't make them any more true than the thousands of whispered allegations against McCain. If you'd like to participate in collaborative editing instead of POV editing, I highly recommend it and would welcome that. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

It looks like a most experienced editor has offered some practical advice regarding evidence and the advice was well received, at least in theory . 5.12.68.204 (talk) 05:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

@Xeno: Is it your position that you are "editing toward NPOV and against personal POV"? Really? Where is it, on the political spectrum, that you would suppose NPOV resides in an article such as Tea Party movement? Somewhere between Huffington Post and MSNBC? Please be specific. If you truly believe that you are "editing toward NPOV," then certainly you should be able to come up with a point on the political spectrum and describe it accurately, as your personal goal. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

P&W, to answer your first question, yes, I do edit toward WP:NPOV, and sometimes that means against your POV. Sometimes it is minor, such as removing unsourced fluffy language calling Palin one of the most popular leaders of the Tea Party movement. Other times it is more substantial, such as when you replace anti-immigration descriptions with anti-illegal-immigration descriptions, or astroturf with grassroots. A more neutral treatment of this content would be to adhere to what reliable sources say, that there are components of each and not just one to the exclusion of the other. As for the rest of your questions regarding spectrums and HuffPo and MSNBC, you have lost me - I really can't make out what you are asking. Perhaps rephrase? Xenophrenic (talk) 21:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

So what becomes of this...

... Punitive blocks, topic ban, some type of probation?

Not sure what Xeno has been up to lately, but from what I experienced he's definitely tenacious in his POV-pushing. Personally, I don't have a problem with people having their own opinions and such -- But, editors around here should at least try to temper those views in the name of NPOV. The next time I witness Xeno doing this will be the first. No joke. †TE†Talk 18:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

In other venues, I've suggested a topic ban from all articles related to U.S. politics, broadly construed; I've also suggested that Xeno could get this topic ban lifted after a suitable period (six months to a year) of productive editing on other types of articles. Malke has also suggested the involvement of a mentor. And I've also indicated that Xeno could participate in this RfC/U, admit that his behavior is problematic, and resolve to change. Furthermore, I've indicated that I would welcome that resolution of this matter, and that it would make such a topic ban unnecessary. I think Xeno is capable of being a very productive editor. He simply needs to check his progressive bias at the door, give up his tendentious behavior, and work as part of a team of colleagues. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hiya, Mookie! Dusting off the ol' TE?

P&W, thank you for the kind words. I think you have the potential to be a very productive editor, too. If you are willing to make an attempt at working collaboratively instead of competitively, I think that would be awesome. In the meantime, it has been suggested by WhatamIdoing that I politely request that you try to explain their concerns to me again. Can we try that? I can't make heads or tails out of huge 216 edit, 18 user diffs like this that you gave as examples. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 01:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you think you may have a blind spot regarding your own behavior, Xeno? You've been blocked for editwarring three times. User:WhatamIdoing has confirmed that this RfC/U is appropriate, and moved it back to "Certified" herself. User:NE Ent and User:Nyttend have both indicated, in the WP:ANI thread that you started, that these concerns are legitimately stated. On the Project page itself, North8000, Malke 2010, Arthur Rubin, Collect, ThinkEnemies, and Nathan Johnson have all indicated support for various versions of "Xenophrenic is a tendentious editor." Now here's something else that should make you stop and think long and hard. Yes, I canvassed, and you've been very diligent about tracking down my canvassing efforts. So certainly you're aware I was also very careful to canvass two people who were on your side in these content disputes: Ubikwit and TFD. Judging from his edits on your User Talk page, TMCk is also well aware of this RfC/U. And none of these three editors is stepping in here to defend you. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:19, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Blind spot regarding my behavior? Nobody knows me as well as I do, and I'm quite self-aware of many flaws and imperfections. If you wish to make a good faith effort at affecting a positive behavioral change in a person, you will need to indicate an actual behavior problem as well as a solution. A couple of contrasting examples:

• It's been said that sometimes my posts are unnecessarily long, and appear to be "walls of text" that need to be written more concisely. That turns out to be a legitimate assessment, and in response I've been working on improvement in that area. (You may not see it yet, but then you can't see the rough-drafts of my posts before I trim them down and click the 'Save page' button -- trust me, there is improvement.)
• It's been said that I "seek to make sure that people know how evil the Tea Party movement is, that it is racist, bigoted, homophobic etc." That is not a legitimate assessment, and in response I ignore it, or if repeated enough, I press people for substantiation - much to their frustration, because they can't.

No, P&W, I do not have a blind spot regarding my behavior. I will, however, turn a blind eye toward false and unsubstantiated characterizations of my behavior - or relentlessly press for substantiation, depending. That's why your comments about how many editors you can get to say "Me too!" (or how many I can get to do the same) aren't relevant to me for this discussion. No amount of "Me too!" exclamations in unison will turn a false accusation into a fact. On one hand, you claim this is a good faith effort to improve behavior, yet on the other hand, you feel that other editors should "defend" me against your effort? Interesting. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Please be careful with your interpretations of others' words. I made no comment on the merits of the RFCU nor said anything about the legitimacy of the concerns of its originators; all I said was that the procedural requirements of the RFC process had been met and that the page therefore didn't qualify for deletion. Nyttend (talk) 02:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

That's correct, I said you indicated the "concerns are legitimately stated." I did not say you indicated the "concerns are legitimate," nor did I intend to misrepresent what you said. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I see what you mean now; I apologise for misunderstanding and complaining as a result. Nyttend (talk) 21:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, more concrete evidence

I'm starting to assemble some diffs in the project mainspace. This only goes back to April 19 (37 days) April 1 (55 days) and virtually ignored Tea Party movement and related pages, which is the current centerpiece of Xenophrenic's editing; it includes only one incident from those pages. Instead, it focuses on other articles related to U.S. politics. I will expand it in the morning. Please bear in mind that this only covers the past 37 55 days of Xenophrenic's edits. The allegation against Xenophrenic is that this represents a pattern of behavior going back at least four years. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Going through those diffs definitely bring back bad memories. Hopefully, your efforts won't be for not and real change can occur. Knock on wood. †TE†Talk 01:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

In light of his previous contributions to this page, and his extended efforts to get this RfC/U deleted after several previously uninvolved editors told him that deletion wasn't going to happen, I am not optimistic. At one point above, Xenophrenic used the analogy of a wife-beater and in effect, he compared himself to a wife-beater. I am saddened to observe that it's a fairly accurate comparison in some ways. Like a wife-beater, he's deep in denial. When presented with incontrovertible, comprehensive proof, he's probably going to blame the victim — and in fact, has already laid the foundation for such a defense with his "I'm editing toward NPOV, and against your POV" statements. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll include samples of discussions that are recurring since they are the best examples of tendentious editing. And ThinkEnemies, if you have examples and suggestions it would be appreciated. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

All my examples are from so long ago, Malke. I wouldn't know where to begin. I think the larger issue at hand is Xeno's modus operandi of tenacious editing, POV-pushing and perpetual edit warring seems to have gone unchecked which has undoubtedly been bad for the project. †TE†Talk 16:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Going off memory of my first encounter with Xeno was on Susan Roesgen. After I had the article protected for 3 days in a content dispute, Xeno came right back to renew the edit war, while also removing the BLP Dispute tag. That was especially tenacious, IMO. (Xeno used these intermittent edits as an excuse to reinsert his preferred version of the content dispute.) †TE†Talk 16:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

After CNN decided to part ways Susan Roesgen and removed her bio from their website, Xeno found an archived version to use. That was just weird. †TE†Talk 17:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I do remember that. He fought like crazy. It's okay if it's old since he's still exhibiting the behaviours. If he'd changed and wasn't doing those things anymore, then they wouldn't be useful. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Remember McAllister and Cynthia Tucker's "quote"? It came back here, again: . Malke 2010 (talk) 17:31, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Here's the Lenny McAllister discussion that you were involved in . Malke 2010 (talk) 17:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Going back in time, I'm glad the nightmares have stopped. ;-) †TE†Talk 19:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The kicker here, the icing on the cake, is that this particular 79-day period of representative evidence comes at a time when Xenophrenic already knew he was under scrutiny due to a conduct-based thread at WP:ANI, as well as the ArbCom investigation regarding the Tea Party movement article. One would think that with both community-based and ArbCom-based spotlights shining on him, Xenophrenic would be on his best behavior during this 79-day period. It is presented as a representative sample of Xenophrenic's editing at Misplaced Pages, dating back four years to 2009, when I first encountered him at Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now and at articles related to Ward Churchill. I notice also that one of Xenophrenic's two amicus editors, User:Casprings, has cited the following sentences from a proposed finding at ArbCom: "Xenophrenic was blocked in 2011 for breaking community sanctions on Tea Party movement, and was blocked twice in 2007 and once in 2013 for edit warring on other articles. Xenophrenic has made 573 edits to the talkpage. There was no community support for a topic ban, Xenophrenic is not named as a party, and there is little evidence presented in the case to point to sanctions."

Casprings then posts the view that "This summery is correct." This admits that Xenophrenic has been blocked four times for editwarring, in addition to the many, many times he has editwarred (in my opinion) without being blocked for it. Casprings also acknowledges that Xenophrenic is not named as a party at ArbCom, and further admits that the proposed finding of "no sanctions" is limited to the narrow range of evidence presented at ArbCom, which does not address any editing at all beyond pages related to Tea Party movement. In fact, I'd suggest that editors presenting evidence against him at ArbCom haven't been very diligent. The histories of the TPm pages are rich with examples of Xenophrenic's generally tendentious, battleground behavior that have not been presented in the ArbCom evidence. Furthermore, the "no community support for a topic ban" occurred on February 26, and was again limited to a tiny fraction of the available evidence at that time: a few diffs, out of the many that were available, at the TPm article. regards .... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:09, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Tag Team Question

One of the rules that User:Xenophrenic is said to have violated is the rule against tag team editing. However, tag team editing involves collusion by two or more editors. The RFC doesn't state who is the collaborator or meatpuppet of Xenophrenic. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The most stringent definition of "tag teaming" (organized collusion) is the one you just cited; I don't believe that such is the case here. At the opposite end of the spectrum, persons with viewpoints opposite of Xenophrenic's have been accused of tag teaming for merely having the same view. However, at the TPM article, roughly speaking, the pattern has been that whenever extra help is needed to make sure that Xenophrenic dominated the result on the article page, usually Goethean stepped in to do that. North8000 (talk) 01:35, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

There was a recent editwar over a "sandbox" page called Talk:Tea Party movement/Moderated discussion/Perceptions of the Tea Party. In that one, Xenophrenic's tag team partner was User:Ubikwit. The really sad, depressing, intimidating thing about trying to gently steer toward NPOV in Misplaced Pages political articles is that wherever Xenophrenic goes, whatever article he decides to parachute into and start editing, there's probably at least one candidate willing to be his next tag team partner. It's been like this for years. Changing it is going to take an enormous amount of work. There has to be a fundamental change in Misplaced Pages culture. The policies are there, they just need to be enforced. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:04, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the way I saw that was as you and Collect tag-teaming Xenophrenic and trying to justify the edits you wanted to push through by falsely claiming that there was consensus for the edits, implying that I was in agreement with the edits insofar as I had been active in the related discussion on the Talk page, where you failed to bring up the nature of the radical and illogical reordering of the subsections.

Accordingly, my revert (w/substantial edit summary) of your falsely asserted consensus version was not a POV push carried out in collusion with Xenophrenic, but a defense of the more neutral version in the form it had been moved over from the main article against the rapid edits an reverts made by you and Collect against Xenophreic with the implication that I was in consensus with the edits, which would obviously was not (and is not) the case.

It should be pointed out that in your edit to the moderated discussion of 15:31, 28 May 2013 (UTC), you state

(creating the article, Perceptions of the Tea Party; I'm not 100% sure about that title, but let's proceed with what we've got)

and

This is based on a paragraph text that was proposed by Xenophrenic several days ago, and I've added this phrase at the end: "... as well as examinations of news media coverage."

The content of those statements/proposed edits would seem to amount to a belated recognition of the merit of all of the above-raised points.

I other words, the placement of the mention of the media coverage aspect at the end of the paragraph would seem to recognize that such is the logically ordering, and therefore that the reordering of the media coverage subsection to the position of first subsection is illogical (i.e., before introducing the material (incidents) being covered, etc.), because that subsection should come at the end of the subarticle.

And you call into question the title of the subarticle, yet persist in keeping that title and moving the article into mainspace before having sorted the problem out.

Is that perhaps aimed at maintaining some semblance of progress in the moderated discussion?

I fail to see a basis for your accusing me of POV pushing (in collusion with Xenophrenic) on the basis of the foregoing, especially in light of the fact that you presently tend to agree with the key points (and implicitly they're reflection of a NPOV) that I had been raising in the discussion even prior to the edits reversing the order, etc.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 06:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Please restrict your arguments to actual real facts. I find your personal aspersions to be about as unhelpful here as any I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages, and about as far removed from fact as any I have seen on Misplaced Pages. Please read and abide by WP:NPA amd WP:CONSENSUS. Note consensus is not the same as unanimity, nor does any editor have "veto power" over consensus as long as Misplaced Pages policies are not violated. Cheers. Collect (talk) 08:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

What is your hyperbole about "aspersions" about? This has been discussed at length, so it is somewhat surprising that P&W would accuse me of being engaged in a tag-team with Xenophrenic, when it was in fact as I described above. What part of the "actual real facts" do you dispute? And what is your insinuation about WP:NPA in relation to? No need to be cryptic or use innuendo.

Here are the diffs of your consecutive reverts performed occurring between two edits (one being the final revert) by P&W

Note that I only have one revert to your two reverts. I would suggest that if you want to start accusing editors of violating WP:NPA, you level your warnings at P&W, not me. My response, detailing your editing history in relation to the accusations, is simply a recounting of the facts.

And for the record, it was this edit by P&W that would seem to have started the edit war, as he appeals to a non-existent "current state of consensus" in the edit summary (Since Xeno insists on chronological order I suppose the best way to represent current state of consensus is to bury this section at the bottom of the article)--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 09:28, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The content of those statements/proposed edits would seem to amount to a belated recognition of the merit of all of the above-raised points. Ummm, no. Sorry. I think you're reading way too much into the arrangement of the phrases. I don't feel that the arrangement of the phrases in a summary paragraph in the parent article is all that important. What's important is the arrangement of the sections in the spin-off article that's being summarized, and the content of those sections. I'd rather not rehash the argument over the arrangement of those sections, but as you can plainly see from the Moderated Discussion page, that sectional arrangement really does have consensus — not just once, but twice:

That second link, by the way, was an effort to accommodate your concerns about the word "Alleged" in the section header, Ubikwit. And we had been talking about it for several days. For further enlightenment please see the anecdotal evidence article, as well as this sentence from WP:TAGTEAM: "Tag team members will often revert changes, even if they are made based on talkpage consensus, and instead insist that consensus isn't clear yet, and more talking needs to happen on the talk page." I feel that even though you and I disagree in a lot of content and sourcing matters, we can work together and should work together. Hence the compromise I've tried to work out on the word "alleged." Some of the more heinous examples of bigoted behavior by a few Tea Party members ended up right at the top of the article, Ubikwit, because I am able to work with you. I just don't feel the same way about Xenophrenic after all that he's done. He needs to change his behavior. kind regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:36, 29 May 2013 (UTC)