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Discussions from this page have been archived to Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement/Proposed decision/Archive.

Argh.

The only editor to be named in the final decision is apparently me, who never edited the darn article and never participated in any of the activities which have led to this article being in front of ArbCom. I request some of you - well meaning, I am sure - strike your supports and move to Oppose per T. Canens. If you choose not to do so, not a thing I can do, of course, but dang its silly to be listed as "was not guilty of anything, but peeps wanted to desysop her! which didn't get enough support". I don't have a crystal ball but this is a dreadful precendent IMO. Respectfully submitted, etc. KillerChihuahua 18:29, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Since I only supported in order to lend my moral support to you, I have happily obliged. Regards, AGK 20:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

My style is to talk bluntly but not to see sanctions against people. ("de-sysop" screams while being attacked in the ANI snake pit/bonfire aside and to be taken in that context....I do NOT want that). This was just another contentious article chugging along in the same hopeless state as all of the others when you went into battling (not administrative) mode and decided to light a bonfire and pour gasoline on it, and later to mis-direct the arbcom case. The biggest issue is not what happened in the article, it is what happened in the places outside of the article. I oppose sanctions against anybody and everybody (including you), (let's just move on) but IMO you have done the most harm of anybody in this overall situation. North8000 (talk) 23:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

While you never edited the article, you did participate in the activities that led to this case. You were asked to get involved in the matter, and you did. And you eventually took the matter to ANI where it got out of hand. And then you brought it to ArbCom. There was nothing you did that calls for any sanctions. Though it's worth noting for future use that some of the article contributors felt you appeared to take sides in the dispute. The finding in the case was to say that the Committee had looked at the matter and felt that there was no need for sanctions. You brought up the desysopping in your opening statement, so I felt it was appropriate that it was shown that the Committee did look and cleared your name, otherwise it might be felt that that aspect of the case was either deliberately or unintentionally overlooked. SilkTork 14:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Whenever an admin intervenes in a complex dispute, some editors will feel that the admin has "taken sides". That's virtually universal, and thus not really "worth noting". It's happened to virtually every admin who's intervened in Israeli-Palestinian disputes, or climate-change disputes, or cold-fusion disputes, or... well, you get the picture. It would be worth noting if an admin wasn't accused by someone of taking sides. Or if the Committee felt that there was actually some substance to these accusations. MastCell  18:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

That's true - in this particular case, the situation got out of hand with calls for topic-banning and desysopping and then a request for an ArbCom case. As such I felt it was worth commenting on. SilkTork 22:30, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Got it - thanks for the clarification. MastCell  22:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Except that in this instance, KC only listed editors she perceived to be 'conservative.' She found no fault with Goethean's comments at the time she brought the ANI. It was Goethean's comments that North8000 was responding to that caused her to engage with him. Malke 2010 (talk) 23:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see accusations of admins "taking sides" very often, and this wasn't such a routine one. Analysis of an immense preponderance of evidence including (subsequently debunked) finding (after non-analysis) on Xenophrenic and Goethean, failing to list the main player (Xenophrenic) and immediately exonerating the other (Goethean), conversations on her talk page, careful analysis the exchange on my talk page (the issue was clearly already stale/dead, and I was seeking to disengage with KC and she persisted) in tandem with the time line of talk page of the article, and subsequent "drop and run" comment/threat at Intelligent design indicate that KC was clearly in battling mode, not admin mode with me. I don't seek any sanctions but this is telling it like it clearly is.North8000 (talk) 01:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

North8000, "battling mode" clearly describes your persistence in demanding answers from KC and refusing to desist even when her illness was pointed out to you. If that's you "trying to disengage" you really must learn to actually disengage. . . dave souza, talk 17:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Malke, I take great exception to this attack/accusation/slur. You have no reason to presume this was my rationale; I have explained my reasoning before, and it was strictly policy-based. I object to this personal smear on my character. KillerChihuahua 18:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

banning everyone?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I would like to note that zero evidence to topic ban me has been presented, that the AN/I discussion found zero evidence to topic ban me and my major sin has been to be a good faith participant in the moderated discussion of all things. I take umbrage as much as KC does at such treatment and respectfully ask my name be removed from the "proposed decision". Adding mnames where zero evidence is given and no one has asked for the person to be topic banned is simply and frankly wrong. Thanks. Collect (talk) 12:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• The moral here seems to be never get involved in an ArbCom case. But more worrisome; the moral also seems to be never get involved in a highly contested article. The motion notes that not all (or any) of the topic-banned may be at fault, yet if they are listed in the ordinary topic-ban section they end up under a cloud, and will not be able to run for arbcom for instance. I think we may need a new category of topic bans: the non-fault topic bans, people in that category should be considered still in good standing. The current motion could actually make it more difficult to solve future stalled discussions, because new “independent” editors who aren’t over-eagerly interested in the topic will stay away due to fear of ending up with a topic ban that will tarnish their reputation. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 12:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I was not involved, AFAICT, in "contentious edits", I tried like hell to get folks to compromise on the moderated discussion page, I was not even a listed party to the case for almost the entire period until the past week (User:The Four Deuces also falls into this aggrieved category and should also be removed post haste) and I sure as hell think this is one of the single most asinine draconian proposals ever made by any group in the history of groupdom. If you wish to "ban them all" then you should include a bunch of editors more contentious than I or TFD. Including Snowded and Bbb23 of all people. Cheers - but this sort of "decision" is like "kill them all and God will know his own" and has a less than zero chance of redounding to anyone's respect for ArbCom at all. Arbitrators: Stick to people whom you have evidence for, for God's sake! Collect (talk) 13:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is a complete mis-fire. And there's not even a dispute going on any more.....the biggest current problem is a shortage of editors willing to actively participate. The Arbcom case has done a lot of good already. Unless they are going to come up with a creative new framework, they should just leave it at that and close it out. Any further actions that focus on editors are a complete misfire. North8000 (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

There were a few solutions mentioned, including dismissing the case, but as edit warring has continued and the article had to be locked, it was felt that a change of editors might be helpful. You'll note that the wording does not attempt to put blame on anyone - indeed, seeks to point out that apportioning blame to any individual or group of individuals might be inappropriate because difficulty in editing the article appears to be more due to the circumstances than to any individual. Difficult in the circumstances when we are not apportioning blame to actually select which editors to restrict. Restricting those named in the case seemed the fairest and easiest solution. I suggested at one point restricting everyone who had ever edited the article (including myself) as that would underline that no blame is being attached, but this is a more targeted and rationale approach. Some of the editors have been more helpful than others. Some have been more uncivil and obstructive than others. But it's difficult to draw a line. So everyone was named. This is simply asking everyone to step back for six months. No blame, no shame. SilkTork 15:11, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

For me personally, (particularly with the all-important "no blame" qualifier, and the "no distinctions" idea needed to say that) the proposed idea sounds like a very pleasant, relieving >= 6 month vacation. But to realy do that you need to get the word "ban" out of there. Nearly Misplaced Pages article which might have an effect on a real-world contest is in a similar situation.....the wikipedia system (policies, guidelines, noticeboards, etc.) doesn't work on those. So the problem isn't the editors, it is the system. You could accomplish something huge by creating a framework that would help this move forward. (something with "BRD with teeth and the status quo must stand as merely another choice" might help, and a success story on this would be huge with huge ramifications) But such would be immensely complex/difficult to do. So while the idea is, I think, not the best choice for the article, as currently written it is fine with me personally. North8000 (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• You'll note that the wording does not attempt to put blame on anyone ... Nevertheless, for years to come this decision will be used to beat well intentioned editors over the head for trying, in good faith, to bring a helpful resolution to a contentious article. You know perfectly well that some editors will be using this decision as a weapon, SilkTork.
• Furthermore this motion avoids any decision on other matters which are appropiately brought before the Committee and should be acted upon, and I'm thinking specifically of the Wikistalking by WLRoss. If Arbitration members just don't have the time to review this properly, then perhaps they should resign and bring in a new group of Arbitrators who can handle these responsibilities. As far as I can tell, there is only one active proceeding before ArbCom and this is it. Essentially, perhaps you are admitting that you don't have the time to serve on the Arbitration Committee.
• Iselilje and Collect bring up a very good point: do not become involved in a contentious article, especially one which is going into arbitration because you will be topic banned, regardless of how well you behave and how hard you work to genuinely improve the article.
• This is simply asking everyone to step back for six months. No blame, no shame. Wrong again. The blame and the shame belong to the Arbitration Committee members who proposed, drafted, and voted for this motion, for it is a confession that the Arbitration Committee cannot do its job. In the business world we call this "incompetence." Voting was proceeding on various specific remedies which offered the likelihood of permanently topic banning the worst offenders. With this motion, you will have the very same worst offenders back in exactly six months, rested and refreshed and ready to do battle. It may be hard for some of you to spot and sanction the worst offenders, but it's not impossible. Such Arbitrators as AGK and Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs proved that it's not impossible because they've voted on sanctions for the worst offenders.
• Try harder. I have. So have several other editors who became involved in this mess, not due to some personal political crusade, but out of a desire to improve one of the worst trouble spots of the encyclopedia. Most people run out of a burning building. Firefighters run in. I was trying to serve in the role of a firefighter, and this is the thanks I get? Arbitrators need to make the same best effort that a few of the editors at Tea Party movement have made. A few people are genuinely without fault in this matter, such as Collect. Some have made a few mistakes along the way but are now making their best efforts ever, including North8000, Malke, Arthur and me. Some are escaping findings of genuine fault in this matter, and long-term sanctions that are not only well-earned, but in the best interests of the Misplaced Pages project. This is a Pontius Pilate approach to one's duties as an Arbitrator. By voting against this motion and then voting on appropriate sanctions for the appropriate individuals, a majority of Arbitrators still have an opportunity to do the right thing for Misplaced Pages, and for its editors. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
• Excuse me, P&W, but I am not an offender at all, let alone among the "worst offenders." I've made substantial contributions to moving this process forward and I've not broken any of the rules unlike you. Including me at all is patently unfair. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
• Malke, I wasn't thinking of you when I said "worst offenders." Please take note of the following sentence: "Some have made a few mistakes along the way but are now making their best efforts ever, including North8000, Malke, Arthur and me." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
• P&W, no, you said, "Such Arbitrators as AGK and Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs proved that it's not impossible because they've voted on sanctions for the worst offenders." They've voted on sanctions against me, among others. Without any evidence, and AGK is using my block record which is three years old and none of the blocks were for TPm. And saying, "Some have made a few mistakes along the way but are now making their best efforts ever, including North8000, Malke, Arthur and me." What mistakes have I made? Do you have diffs? I'd like to see some especially since SilkTork, AGK and DWFuchs have none. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Do you see all this civil – but incessant and distracting – bickering with one another? I am afraid it is why the motion has been proposed. AGK 22:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

AGK makes a good point. SilkTork 22:35, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• AGK: Do you see that I'm not bickering but asking P&W to correct a serious misstatement he's made? Also, please note your comment here: ? You've said I was blocked for behaviours but you failed to note that none of the blocks were for behaviours on Tea Party movement and also failed to note that the blocks are 3 years old. Also, you've not shown one diff, not even one, that supports any kind of sanctions for me. I'd not edited that article in nearly 3 years. I'm not "the most active editor" there. I've not edit-warred, made personal attacks, or shown any other behaviours that would remotely justify sanctions against me. You claimed I'm the most active editor, based on what? On the edit count of 3 years ago? There's absolutely nothing to implicate me here, yet you single me out. And when I asked you on your talk page to reconsider, you didn't even give me the courtesy of a reply. Malke 2010 (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Malke 2010: I'm very sorry I didn't respond to your message on my talk page. You left it when I was on vacation, so I didn't read it at the time, but I should have – and I apologise for not doing so. To respond to the substance of your concerns: you may not have edited the article itself very often in the past year, but you have been a substantial contributor to its talk page, even in the past couple of months. Those contributions included such things as this, which I considered to be disruptive. As for singling you out, in actuality I have not been focussing on you any more than I have been focussing on the active contributors to the TPM article or talk page. Rather, I have been reviewing each party's conduct in sequence, beginning with somebody else and then you. After I wrote up the proposal to topic-ban you, I then decided to change tack and propose a "clean start" for the article – in the form of the motion that we are now voting on. I hope this makes my position more clear. Regards, AGK 23:13, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• AGK: No, I had not been active on the talk page. I made a comment on the talk page in February 2013 after an absence of a year on the talk page where I made a brief comment in passing and then left for another year, as I've explained in the evidence and the workshop and the main page. I had not made a comment before that for a year, and before that for another year. I have not edited the article at all in 3 years except for four edits in April 2013. I WAS a substantial contributor to the talk page, PAST TENSE, and the fact that I have so many edits there for the year 2010, shows that for the ONE YEAR that I did edit the Tea Party movement, I demonstrated that I'd rather discuss matters then engage in non-productive behaviours like edit wars which you will find consistently happening over these last 3 years from some of the other editors named here, but you will NOT find it for me. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• And that diff? Sorry, but that absolutely DOES NOT justify a topic ban. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• SilkTork, I'd add that you've even stated there isn't enough to sanction me but you didn't want Xenophrenic to be disadvantaged if I wasn't also banned. Based on what? Where have I been editing that page or even any of it's subarticles? I've done nothing wrong. Have I made oversighted BLP violations? Have I made personal attacks? Hounded anyone? Edit-warred? No, I haven't yet you want to throw me under the bus. You're doing it to Collect and TFD also. What are these based on? Even KC has said she didn't see where I should be sanctioned and she brought the case: . I've done nothing wrong and I've contributed to the moderated discussion, followed all the rules, etc. And for what? You're the one who quit that. Sorry, all of you Arbitrators have got to rethink this and sort the real trouble-makers here and I'm not one of them. Neither is Collect or TFD. Malke 2010 (talk) 22:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Something that should be considered by parties who don't think their behavior is poor enough to sanction is that Misplaced Pages does not operate on societal principles of justice. This proposal - like all WP proposals in theory - is shaped to further the goals of the encyclopedia, not to immaculate justice for any particular editor. Undoubtedly, there are editors in this dispute who have acted worse than others and I don't even disagree that some editors don't deserve sanctions. But that's not the point. Arbcom has a complicated case - maybe one of the most complicated in its history - and there are no easy solutions. Banning the worst of the editors (if 'worst' can even be quantified here) will still leave an intractable dispute among the rest and what this article could really use is some fresh eyes, preferably eyes belonging to people who don't particularly care about politics. So is this decision fair to the editors involved? No, not to all. But is it better for the encyclopedia? In my opinion, yes - and whether it's good for the encyclopedia is the only relevant question.

I'm sure it's a policy most editors here are aware of but it should be iterated here that you have no rights on Misplaced Pages (which includes the right to justice/fairness). Quoting from WP:FREESPEECH: "Your only legal rights on Misplaced Pages are your right to fork (create another encyclopaedia independent of the Wikimedia Foundation) and your right to leave (stop editing)."

With that said, a couple of editors have expressed valid concerns that an Arbcom ban is tantamount to a de facto future RFA/Arbcom election failure. The proposal already deals with this to a certain extent, but to allay these concerns I think it should be very explicitly stated that this ban is not a statement about any particular editor, but rather that this combination of editors has been unable to deal with the problems present due to the contentious nature of the subject matter and possibly the timing of the previous presidential election. As such, there is no blame to go around and no inference can be made about any specific editor.

The only other concern I have is the possibility of an even worse editing environment being created to fill the power vacuum should this proposal pass. Discretionary sanctions are the front line to deal with this but it may require heavily active administration in the forthcoming months.

AGK & co: your proposal was audacious and took courage to present. I've been following this case a little and have been at a loss as to what solutions would work. I know that if you've gotten to this point it's because you believe you have no other choice and obviously I'm inclined to agree. Hopefully the next 6 months will demonstrate you were right. Nformation 00:37, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Then let's see some diffs. You obviously think editors here have demonstrated poor behaviour. Let's see the diffs. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

If that's your response to what I wrote then I don't think you understood what I wrote. However, if you're simply looking for reading material then the evidence subpage may have what you're looking for. Nformation 00:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Bad wording in motion

The motion says (in effect) "this is not a topic ban" and then in the next sentence says "if any editor violates the topic ban". Looie496 (talk) 14:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the catch. I've modified the second "topic" mention to "page ban". Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 14:30, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

In the interest of the encyclopedia, I can support this motion

In order to forego the enormous amount of work it would take to sort through the policy issues and conduct of each editor, this sounds like a reasonable approach. And insofar as it is a novel approach, it holds out promise for bringing to the surface further aspects of group dynamic editing problems on contentious articles, hopefully producing more fair and efficient methods for remedying such scenarios in the future.

Though I feel that I am one of the least culpable on the list, others will undoubtedly feel the same, and I would hope that they would consider this comment in the spirit of opening the article up to other editors for the time being, freeing it temporarily from the preconceptions and biases that have proved insurmountable for the group of editors listed.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:10/3:40 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that is the right attitude to take, and I thank you for posting this. SilkTork 15:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course you think this is the right attitude to take because it allows you to do what you want: enable the Arbitration Committee to fail or refuse to do its job. I repeat, this appears to be the only active case before the Arbitration Committee. So this is, in effect, an admission that you do not have the time (or perhaps the desire) to actively serve on the Arbitration Committee and perform its most necessary function. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

That is an outrageous accusation backed up by sloppy facts (the committee has four cases in front of it as we speak). AGK 11:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. Two are brand new, just in the past couple of weeks: "Infoboxes" and "Ironholds." So that makes three, two of which just opened. "Race and politics" was closed five days ago with no further action, after a lengthy period of suspension. I rarely use the word "outrageous," AGK. What's truly outrageous here is what Xenophrenic, Goethean and WLRoss are being allowed to get away with. I remember Apostle12 of the "Race and politics" case from three years ago, helping WLRoss author and then tenaciously defend the Franklin article's horrendous BLP violations. I knew it wouldn't be the last we'd see of him. I'm just as certain this will not be the last that you see of WLRoss, Xenophrenic or Goethean. All three are tendentious POV pushers. In addition, WLRoss is a Wikistalker; and as you've personally observed, Xenophrenics contribs are a textbook definition of an SPA. The evidence is overwhelming against all three of them; let them slip away now, and they'll cause train wrecks like this on some other article (or articles), just as sure as the sun's coming up in the morning. When will anything be done about it? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Ubikwit made an egregious BLP violation calling a living person a sociopath and then claimed he'd have to read the policy on that though he's been editing since 2009. He broke all the rules on the moderated discussion. He edit-warred multiple times, he hounded me, he regularly made personal attacks against editors, he brought ANI complaints without justification, from the beginning he attempted to get editors in trouble by tattling at your talk page, and he continuously disrupted what sincere editors were attempting to accomplish. So far, the worst editor on the list is Ubikwit. Why are you so protective of him? You never banned him when he broke all the rules, in fact, you made it easy for him to get away with it. You allowed him to revert himself.

Please show me the evidence right here, right now, that proves why any of us, excepting Ubikwit, should be topic banned. Where's the evidence? Show the diffs. Show the bad behaviours. I'll be happy to show the bad behaviours of Ubikwit that deserve a site ban. Starting with that BLP violation.

Where's the evidence?

Malke 2010 (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ubikwit's BLP violation
• Oversight of BLP violation:
• Says he’ll have to read the policy .

• Ubikwit makes edit to TPm article without any discussion or consensus on an article that is already under editing restrictions and had just come under ArbCom scrutiny.

• Ubikwit's recent history on arrival at TPm included an interaction ban with Evildoer:

• Ubikwit violates interaction ban:

• Makes personal attacks : ....

• Hounding: "What do you mean. . .. "Since Malke has chimed in. . ." ..

• Violates the no ‘revert rule imposed by Silk Tork on the Moderated Discussion page .
• Violates consensus rule on Moderated Discussion page by actioning edit with just his ivote and one other: "Discussion and ivote" .

• Claims edit is made “per moderated discussion” in his edit summary when none exists:.

• SilkTork allows Ubikwit to self-revert instead of blocking him for violating the rules again:..

• July 2nd reverts where he “forgot” the rules again, this time because they were 'hatted.': .

• Admits on Silk Tork's talk page that edit he's just made without consensus will be objected to, yet he made it anyway: .

• Silk Tork allows Ubikwit to revert it, no block: .

• Obstructionism: The edit proposed here is Ubikwit's own version combined with Xenophrenic's version. The only thing missing is a blockquote Ubikwit cannot explain the meaning of but insists it be included: . "Oppose" ivote: .

• Ubikwit wrote several proposed versions of the Agenda section edit. In each, he insisted that this quote be included even though the quote itself read as having no relation to the whole:

“…The Tea Party contains a welter of oftentimes conflicting Agendas... Yet within this confusing constellation of ideas and viewpoints, there is a relatively stable ideological core to the Tea Party. This core is particularly evident when one focuses on the vision of the Constitution regularly professed by movement leaders, activists, and supporters.”

• Ubikwit was asked several times to explain what the quote meant and it was even suggested he simply paraphrase it. He would not respond to editors' requests to explain the quote, but on one occasion when asked again, "What does the blockquote mean?" he replied:

It's html markup language jargon, not plain English.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 14:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• SPA:.
• No articles created:

Malke 2010 (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

A yes but ...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Having walked away from the any real engagement with the article given the impossibility of making progress I think this is a good solution, but I would exclude Collect and the The Four Deuces from the list, both have followed both the rules and principles here and have attempted to move things along. ----Snowded 18:42, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, since you didn't put the time and effort into the moderated discussion when it might have been useful in the fray that it was--as your statement implicitly recognizes--what makes you so sure that you can accurately make such a statement? In fact, only a full-on course of Arbcom proceedings examining the specific conduct of each individual editor could yield such a result.

Thus, I, for one, would only support the proposal in its present form, including all listed editors. And note that I was the last individual added to the list.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

You don't have a choice. It's up to ArbCom. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:04, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Notice to parties and response to motion

Feel free to leave your comments on the final decision proposal in this section. However given the bickering and whinging that was going on above we're going to do this a little more orderly. Exactly as you would if this were a case request, create a subsection (level 3 heading) with your comments, please try not to go over 500 words. And keep in mind that there is to be no threaded discussion, if you absolutely need to reply to another user then please comment only in your own section. Arbitrators - feel free to reply or comment where ever you'd like. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Arthur Rubin

I really don't think that this will help, but I can't think of anything that will help, so it seems a reasonable try. However, the standard WP:SOCK rules need to be applied; all parties need to inform ArbCom (or an ArbCom member) of all alternate accounts, etc., etc. (I had already informed NYB of all alternate accounts where I still know the password....) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The list of restricted editors should be produced by a mechanical process; say all editors who a certain number of edits in a specified time at TPm, talk pages, and subarticles, although the AN and ANI threads might also be included. Otherwise, it will be (read as is) seen as an arbitrary list with no inclusion criteria. I agree that, if this proposal is accepted, I should be on the list. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment by The Four Deuces

No evidence has been presented that I even edited "Tea Party movement" and I therefore request that my name by removed from the case. TFD (talk) 05:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment by ThinkEnemies

From ThinkEnemies' talk page:

Hello ThinkEnemies, this is a notice to inform you that you have been added as a party to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement, you may wish to review the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 7:19 pm, 25 July 2013, last Thursday (4 days ago) (UTC−5)

This is a courtesy notice to inform you that a motion (which affects you) has been proposed to close the Tea Party movement case. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk• contribs • logs) 8:00 pm, Today (UTC−5) Announces a proposed topic ban from TPM and related articles for period of 6 months. †TE†Talk 12:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with this process, so my criticism is limited to logic. I would say such a quick turnaround with zero documented discussion/rationale behind such severe sanctions against ThinkEnemies is problematic at best. Maybe this is normal. Let's hope not. This project already has enough trouble attracting and/or retaining editors (and no, it's not because people are too stupid for wikimarkup). What I see here is a list of editors being grouped together in the name of expediency. Instead of this flawed methodology, I'll propose the novel idea of voting on individual editors.

If your process can't be done in a responsible and thoughtful way, maybe it shouldn't be done at all. †TE†Talk 12:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by North8000

This is a mistake. First,there is no "dispute". Now (and before the bonfire lit by KC) this is in the same state just like all of the other articles that reflect a real-world contest.....sadly chugging along. This idea reflects a mis-reading of the situation, and would do more harm than good. It also sets a terrible and harmful precedent. There are actually only 2 viable courses of action:

1. Just close it out without further action. It has done some good.
2. Create a framework for the article to actually move forward. I could draft this if you are interested.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

@AGK There is no "dispute" There was a temporary bonfire that was not even at the article which Arbcom has already solved. Sincerely, North8000 (talk)

Comment by Collect

TFD and I are no more "disputants" here than would be Bbb23, Snowded, Casprings, Prototime and a host of others. I am only here because of an AN/I thread where it was unanimously agreed that I had done no ill -- which is a really strange way to claim a person is a "disputant". I then did the horrid thing of trying to get people to agree on a consensus in the moderated discussion, which is clearly a punishable offence. In fact, I was only added here less than two weeks ago, and consider this one of the single worst concepts and examples of WP:Tiptibism, Catch-22 and Calvinball rolled all into one. And if this be "bickering" to bar me from posting here, then make the most of it (historical allusion). Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC) Note (per AR): I have no "socks." Collect (talk) 11:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

@ST - your "rationale" is "ir". That you deliberately added people who were trying to get a reasonable consensus and singling them out at the last second is absurd, and contrary to what is known generally as "common sense" I would also note that if you did so deliberately add people, you have ceased to be an "uninvolved" Arbitrator and should recuse immediately yourself from any person whom you added to the case at the last minute. You added people with whom you had an editorial relationship on the moderated page, and like any admin in such a position, you are involved with respect to the editors you added. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

@ST I note you wrote I have proposed adding "(or where it is in the best interests of the encyclopaedia, regards of conduct)" so the whole line would read: {{ex|The Arbitration Committee may impose restrictions on users engaged in inappropriate behavior (or where it is in the best interests of the encyclopaedia, regardless of conduct), usually following a request for arbitration)). There have been no objections. So if the motion passes, I will do that which I regard as a clear case of "sentence first, trial later, or maybe never" which is not something I would expect an involved admin to make as a proposed change, and you are showing exceedingly clearly that you are actually "involved" with the editors you added (though you now say you only "suggested" adding them at the last minute. I consider that culpable conduct on your part utterly - one does not change the rules at the end to justify the decision any more than a justice of the peace can find a jaywalker guilty of manslaughter without any trial or even any accusation <g> Cheers. And recuse yourself before this gets laughed at by everyone now. BTW, your "proposed change" would mean any majority of arbs could ban anyone they wished without even having a case of any sort before them ("usually following a request for arbitration" means such a request is not needed for such actions under your proposed rule which requires consent of the entire community as far as I can tell)- did you or any other arb realize that? Collect (talk) 22:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Irony alert: Calls for sanctions should be based on evidence; the greater the sanction, the greater the need for appropriate evidence signed by SilkTork. Collect (talk) 22:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I take on board your views that I should recuse. When the case reopened I gave some thought to recusing completely, but as I had worked on the case it seemed relevant that I took part in the discussions which led to this motion being formulated. Having been a part of that, it seems somewhat inappropriate to then wash my hands of the affair in order to avoid a bit of flak.

I don't think I became involved. I believe I remained civil and polite with everyone involved, and handed out warnings and sanctions where appropriate. Having said that, I don't think it helped that it was an ArbCom member who was moderating the discussion, as that led to some confusion of roles, and I think reduced the willingness of others to help out. It's not something that I would want to do again. I started the discussion as there was a delay in getting the case going because NYB was tied up at that time on another matter. As the discussion progressed, I had a hope that if people did pull together, that the problems could be resolved, the article improved, and the case could be dismissed. That was a genuine belief. And I will say that I felt that you provided great assistance in pursuing consensus, and I have nothing but respect for you. At times I took your suggestions and sought out your advice. Unfortunately, we were not able to get the improvements in behaviour or article we wanted, and so we are both disappointed, and walking away from this unhappy. I accept that I failed, and so also accept that I will get a fair amount of grief and flak. And I particularly accept it from you, because I understand how you feel. SilkTork 22:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The page I am talking about editing is Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions. It's not a policy page. It's an information page. It sums up something that has been done. Currently I believe that everyone listed on that page has misbehaved. But if the motion passes, and the names on the motion are posted on that page, it seems appropriate to add a comment that signifies that not everyone on the page is there for bad behaviour. SilkTork 23:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

As your motion is worded, the ArbCom could actually desysop any admin without any complaint being brought by anyone, and without any evidence of wrongdoing at all, for example, or ban any editor whatsoever without any complaint or hearing of any sort. I consider such a motion to be extraordinarily ill-advised, and likely to result in community motions regarding that extension of ArbCom's reach. BTW, the fact you feel you "failed" is a really strange rationale for your motion and for your addition of editors to the case at the last minute. I believe the term is Star Chamber at that point, and trust those who actually understand why procedures and limits exist in the first place will explain it to you. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Malke 2010

To the Arbitrators:

At this very moment the article is locked. . Who is responsible for that? Anyone posting here right now? No. None of us is responsible for that. What was the purpose of the moderated discussion? Was it to gather evidence or was it to truthfully work on the issues? You are punishing editors who did nothing wrong to begin with and who made an honest effort to resolve the issues. And to lump us all in with editors who did edit-war, got the page locked, violated policy, broke the rules of the moderated discussion repeatedly, is egregious. Especially when you consider some of those editors violated policy in the most egregious way by continuing on and not changing their behaviours.

The decision to bring this motion makes you all appear to be short-tempered and lacking judgment in the moment. You cannot possibly equate editors making sincere efforts with editors who continue to edit-war and continue to violate policy despite this being an ArbCom case. These editors showed absolutely no respect for any of you, this process, or the project and yet you are prepared to punish those editors who did show respect, who do care about the project, and did make a genuine effort?

I can't believe this is coming from all of you. This cannot be a political decision. It must be based on the merits. It's not enough to make sweeping statements with no evidence and ban all. That is beyond the pale. And Callenecc please reconsider your comments. There are no editors here whinging or bickering.

• Suggestion for sorting this

• Make a list of the editors and ask these questions about each one:

• Has this editor been continuously active on the Tea Party movement for 2 or more years?

If yes, that's bad. Score = 0. If no, that's good. Score = 1.

• Did this editor's contribution to the article mainly consist of adding content?

If yes, that's good. Score = 1. If no, that's bad. Score = 0.

• Did this editor's contribution to the article mainly consist of reverts?

If yes, that's bad. Score = 0. If no, that's good. Score = 1.

• Does this editor have blocks/bans within the past year that directly relate to the behaviour problems on the Tea Party movement article?

If yes, that's bad. Score = 0. If no, that's good. Score = 1.

• Is this editor an SPA?

If yes, that's bad. Score = 0. If no, that's good. Score = 1.

• Does this editor contribute to the encyclopedia in other ways? Article creation, wikiprojects, vandal fighting, page patrol, etc.

If yes, that's good. Score = 1. If no, that's bad. Score = 0.

• Did this editor participate in the moderated discussion?

If yes, that's good. Score = 1. If no, that's bad. Score = 0.

• If so, did this editor violate any of the rules of the moderated discussion such as personal attacks, edit-warring, etc.

If yes, that's bad. Score = 0. If no, that's good. Score = 1.

• A score of 7 to 8 gets a barnstar.

• A score of 5 to 6 gets an "Okay, but don't do it again."

• A score of 4 and under gets topic banned.

@SilkTork: adding yourself to the list of involved editors does not help justify a blanket decision that will affect editors who are not guilty of wrong-doing. You are the one who withdrew from the moderated discussion. It is your opinion that it failed because editors didn't perform to your expectations. But what did you do to contribute to that failure? You were not attending to the page daily or at least checking for problems. If you go back and review your talk page and the moderated discussion, can you honestly say you didn't allow Ubikwit a free hand to abuse the other editors? Can you honestly say you applied disciplines to all editors evenly? Did you respect the opinions of the other editors? For example, after the Perceptions of the Tea Party movement sub-article was launched, I suggested we then get to work on something easy, to help restore/encourage a more collegial atmosphere as that had been a difficult subarticle to create. But you allowed Ubikwit to set the next task. You also allowed his further disruptions which included actioning his edit without proper discussion.

The disciplines were fast in coming for North8000 and Phoenix&Winslow and ThinkEnemies. But not for Ubikwit. He made a BLP violation that required oversighting. As an ArbCom admin with oversight who was at that time moderating the discussion, surely you were aware of what he'd done. Yet nothing came of it until you blocked ThinkEnemies for a far less BLP violation. I then pointed out the disparity between what Ubikwit had done and what TE had done. You deleted my comment and left a stern warning on my talk page. When that got sorted you apologized to me. But all that happened to Ubikwit was a belated warning with no block, no topic ban, which would certainly have been justified, even coming a few weeks later. The moderated discussion had it's own rules and seeking redress outside that page was not possible. No other admin wanted to touch it. And now that page is locked again.

@Arbs: Please seriously consider my above solution for evaluating the merits of each editor. I based this evaluation on comments made by each of you across all the pages of this case. For example, you want to include an editor's history. That's there. You've said you want to consider the length of editing time on the article. That's there, too. Blocks/bans? Got it. Problems on the moderated discussion? Included.

@AGK . On the Proposed Decision page, you singled me out for an especially false and harsh statement. I'd like you to strike it through or modify it to just your signature. here. You didn't make such a personalized comment to any of the others, so I suspect you've been singling me out all along. I am not the most active editor, Xenophrenic is, and your comment makes it appear that I was the most active editor and had misconduct on the TPm, in other words, you are essentially calling me the biggest troublemaker. That's a personal attack. Thank you for removing it.

@KillerChihuahua: You and North8000 both edited Intelligent Design before the TPm issue began and apparently on opposite sides. I was just pointing out it can make you look involved. Since you are on opposite sides of the fence there, it might have been best to avoid any involvement at TPm.

As for saying I should have posted Goethean's comments on the evidence page, the question is, why didn't you do that? The Arbs, I believe it was SilkTork, specifically asked if you'd looked into Goethean's behaviour and you said you had. So that means you've read his comments.

Comment by Goethean

I think that it is not a bad decision and among the better of the available options. My only complaint is that the editors who defied, battled, attacked, and harassed User:KillerChihuahua, who disrupted Misplaced Pages in order to do so, and who appear to be completely unrepentant about their behavior, will not be admonished and may take that lack of admonishment as encouragement to continue their disruptive partisan behavior. — goethean 18:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Phoenix and Winslow

Predictably, editors who have already walked away from the article (Ubikwit, Goethean and Snowded) are saying, "What a great idea," while editors who haven't given up on the article are saying, "This is a really bad idea."

It's very demoralizing to work this hard for this long to improve one of Misplaced Pages's trouble spots, and then get kicked off because someone else is being tendentious. SilkTork has expressed a valid concern that ArbCom attention to an article has a chilling effect. I've felt that chilling effect and seen its effect on others. This motion, if passed, would raise that chilling effect to ice storm level. Good veteran editors and admins are going to take a hands off approach because no matter how hard they try to improve the article, and no matter how much good faith they exhibit, one tendentious POV warrior like Xenophrenic would mean they'll be page-banned.

Most people run out of burning buildings. Firefighters run in to put the fire out. (And it's clear we've had at least two arsonists on this article.) Misplaced Pages needs more firefighters on contentious articles like this one. This motion, if passed, would ensure that we have fewer firefighters, not more.

Strangely enough, one of the very same Arbitrators who are now advocating this poorly conceived motion resisted the idea of collective punishment just a few weeks ago, explicitly stating the need to find individual remedies for each individual: "Procedural opposition: will vote on sub-divided proposals instead." Comments by Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs, in supporting this motion, demonstrate that it is purely experimental in nature. ArbCom is hoping that if they remove this group of people, the "right people" will just show up, reach agreement quickly, and everything will be just swell. The "right people" will instead be kept away by the chilling effect. The ones most likely to show up will be the "wrong people" — tendentious POV warriors who see this as their golden opportunity. The next six months will most likely be very much like the last six months. Different names, same games.

I include by reference the remarks I made above, before Malke asked me the question about "worst offenders." The committee didn't hesitate to take KC off the list of page-banned editors. Collect should be taken off as well. He's completely without fault in this matter. He offered a reasonable concern about readability, showed a willingness to compromise on that, and continued offering reasonable compromises to the very end. Similarly, Snowded should be added to the list and made a party to this proceeding, Despite a hatnote at the top of the MD page prohibiting remarks about other editors, he made a negative remark about an editor. Furthermore, he participated as one of Xenophrenic's Wikilawyers in the RfC/U, though not as actively as Goethean, and at WP:3RRN. The risk that Snowded will step forward as a new POV warrior, picking up where Xenophrenic has left off, is too great.

Regarding the current lockdown of the article, let's review — see links to WP:3RRN above which contain the diffs. Xenophrenic Boldly made a massive edit without consensus. Then I Reverted him, citing the absence of consensus and even citing WP:BRD in my edit summary. What was supposed to happen next was Discussion. Instead Xenophrenic reverted, then Arthur reverted again, and then Xenophrenic violated 1RR. Xenophrenic is the one who broke the prescribed BRD sequence of events, therefore Xenophrenic started the edit war. And considering the state of this ArbCom proceeding at the time, I respectfully suggest that he was mooning the jury.

This article was making excellent progress under the effective moderation of SilkTork. That moderation should continue. Our new moderator, User:cyberpower678, needs to get the admin support necessary to continue making it effective. Also, the Wikistalking by WLRoss must be addressed and remedied. (This part shouldn't be hard at all. It's painfully obvious.) He will view ArbCom's failure to act as a seal of approval.

ArbCom doesn't just need to do the right thing here. ArbCom needs to be SEEN doing the right thing here, even though it's hard. This will encourage editors and admins throughout the project to do the right thing, even though it's hard. It's not impossible to spot the most troublesome, tendentious editors on this article. Their names are Xenophrenic and Goethean. And to a lesser extent, most recently Ubikwit. Permanently topic-ban the first two, topic-ban Ubikwit for a year, and watch this article continue to improve. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by KillerChihuahua

Agree with Collect in that the only reason he was added to the case was that sanctions (against him) were proposed on ANI, so I added his name here under the presumption that whoever added him would likely be adding evidence which Collect should be allowed to rebut. Neither happened; keeping him in is as silly as keeping me in. Part of the ANI insanity, in which there was somewhat of a free for all. Let's not be guilty of repeating the ANI free for all, shall we? I don't recall adding TFD, who added him and why? If his case is the same as Collect's, he should also be omitted. KillerChihuahua 14:40, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking I'd added Collect, but went and checked after Ubikwit's comment and find that no, I didn't. Allow me to update my comment, then: I think no one should have been added after the evidence phase closed, without re-opening the evidence page. I think adding parties after the Workshop was closed is even worse. If you want to close the case, then ban some people individually based on their activities on the "moderated discussion" or the talk page in general or whatever; or reopen the case, or start a new case; I think that would have been a better approach. But adding parties after a case is basically closed except for Arbs is just wrong. Having this "invitation to comment on the talk page of the Proposed decision" does not make up for not having Evidence open and a full case for those listed after the appropriate timeframe. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua 15:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

ThinkEnemies: How the freak am I "missing"? This eludes me. I was not "previously a party" I am the filing party. Was, still am. There was a decision to have a "Remedy" that nothing needed to be done about me, since I'd done nothing wrong, and it seemed silly to me (and several Arbs) to have that as a final remedy, so at my suggestion/request, they took it out - on my part, I thought it was a bad precedent to have "remedies" with no problem and which did nothing. Was I wrong? Do you need it spelled out for you that some people don't need to have remedies, by name? Are you confused? Do you think if Arbs change their votes on a remedy, the party mentioned is automagically no longer a party to the case? I can assure you the second is not correct, (I am still listed as a party, first in the list) and the first (that not all parties get remedies has to be spelled out for anyone) is rather surprising to me. KillerChihuahua 15:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

ThinkEnemies, I'm not "involved". I've never edited the article. Ever. I've only edited the talk page IIRC 6 times, all prior to going to ANI, all in my capacity as an uninvolved admin. When you act only as an admin, you don't somehow become "involved". Please see from the intro to the WP:ADMIN page: "Uninvolved administrators" can also help in the management of Arbitration Committee remedies and the dispute resolution concerning disruptive areas and situations. Administrators acting in this role are neutral; they do not have any direct involvement in the issues they are helping people with. Lists of sanctions that are to be enforced by neutral administrators can be found at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Active sanctions (see also requests for enforcement at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement). as well as a more detailed explanation at WP:UNINVOLVED. Hope this helps clear up your confusion. KillerChihuahua 18:06, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Re to Malke: Your first link is me warning North8000 on a different article. Admin often warn editors, this does not make them involved. The rest of your diffs should have been placed on the evidence page of this case, not the talk page of the final decision. Your question presupposes a position I do not hold, and is a leading question. I do not, nor have I ever, thought North8000 was the problem, singular. Therefore asking me if I still think something I have never thought is unlikely to be a helpful question for you to ask. Do you still think chickens have lips? would have been just as useful a question. KillerChihuahua 19:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

It's bad to have remedies with no evidence. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Ubikwit

In light of the fact that KC has now posted a comment that relates solely to events predating the Moderated discussion, I'm adding this comment. Neither KC nor Snowed participated in the Moderated discussion to a significant degree that enables them to make judgmental statements on the status of any individual that has been named as a party subsequently. It is somewhat baffling that they would presume to do so.

The Moderated discussion demonstrates that Collect has been as obstructive as anyone else, though he managed to fly below the radar by not committing egregious POV pushing edits.

Alas, I long to put the readability indexes behind me...

TFD has not been very active and though some of his contributions were positive, in my view, I seem to recall some problems in regard to sourcing and the use of academic sources, particularly the Perrin source.

The reactions on this page by a number of editors demonstrate an excessive (emotional) attachment to the article, and a mere six month trial suspension instead of more serious sanctions would seem to me something that should be more widely embraced.

So while I agree with Courcelles comment that there are people up there who should in no way be returning to this topic in merely six months, the proposed motion seems worthy of serious consideration because:

1. It deals with the group dynamic issue in a novel and expedient manner that may subsequently lead to insights enabling more effective and efficient handling of such problems. The article should be amply improved in six months, and the behavior upon return should be more easily assesable on the basis of the changes enacted in the interim, facilitating the imposition of conduct related sanctions in a less politically charged atmosphere.
2. It eliminates the necessity of dealing with the gray zones overlapping the content and conduct issues that may be related to the somewhat novel approach that was adopted in the form of the Moderated discussion.
3. It is not punitive insofar as it is a short-term "page ban", and assumes good faith in that it aims to address the inability of editors to productively collaborate in the face of potentially (mutually) incommensurate (political) views.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 04:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

KC provides constructive input in modifying her original comment, but I am of a mind that the Moderated discussion was an integral part of the process, and since discretionary sanctions were introduced, new to these proceedings though I am, it would seem within the purview of those that set up the Moderated discussion to incorporate any findings gleaned therefrom here. Since this is an Arbcom case, such findings would seem to encompass the scope of adding editors to the case.

Note that I myself fall into that category, and though I have some reservations about being subjected to sanctions, I firmly believe that the reams of text from the Moderated discussion provide valuable material from which to glean insight into the nature of the problems with the article as well as the editing thereof. What more could you ask for in the course of seeking for a solution to a problem?--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 17:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Xenophrenic

I think the drafting Arbitrators as well as everyone else could have gone through each party one by one and isolated where they went astray in not editing according to Misplaced Pages's policies. I tried that with one or two editors below, but without a full analysis from the rest of the Committee on each of the editors involved, that process is never going to work. And for whatever reason, that was not done in this case. --NW

I do not share the optimism of the Arbiters expressing support for this proposed decision, especially of those who use the description "solution" in their supportive comments. This isn't a solution, as it doesn't solve anything. It just kicks the can down the road for 6 more months. I don't even see agreement between the Arbiters about what the problem is. Some say there has been no overt misconduct, and it's not an issue with any specific individual; yet others say there are distinct, identifiable individuals who absolutely should not be editing. According to the proposal, the purpose of these page-bans is to give previously uninvolved editors an opportunity to make a fresh start toward compromise on the contents of the Tea Party movement article, which sounds good on paper and I'm certain is a good faith attempt, but it (in my opinion as a contributor since the early days of these articles) completely misreads the situation. The dozen editors listed in the page-ban proposal, and their various disputes on talk pages, do not bar or disuade uninvolved editors from contributing (although the Page Protection lock certainly does).

The interest isn't there. Please consider that during the past 6 months, while these "highly active editors" were restrained by these ArbCom proceedings and the Moderated discussions, "uninvolved editors" did not swoop in and improve the contents of the article. SilkTork personally petitioned a half-dozen qualified uninvolved editors to help with the article, and none showed any interest (although one made a dozen uncontroversial copy-edits and hasn't been seen since). When we petitioned on noticeboards for another Moderator, only one editor showed interest during the whole time the notice was active. An editor even posted a notice to interested editors to sound off on the Talk page, but there has been no interest. The fact is, for the past couple years there hasn't been much content activity on the article at all unless one of two things happens: the Tea Party makes news (i.e.; taking a stance on immigration reform; IRS scrutiny scandal), which they've done with decreasing frequency, or a Misplaced Pages editor tries to add or remove negative content. (See pretty green bar graph here. Note that before this Admin/ANI/ArbCom mess began in February, generating 70-100 article edits per month, there were only 7 edits in January, and the article was mostly dormant the previous 5 months -- simply no interest.) Most of the present TP article content was actually created back in the movement's infancy during 2009-2010, and therein lies one of the two root causes of problems.

(Problem #1) As the movement first became "notable", all information on it came from either news media reports, political pundits or self-proclaimed spokespeople -- and our articles reflected that. Our Misplaced Pages articles read very much like tabloids, full of snippets of information gleaned from news headlines and spokesperson talking points, and occasionally an opinion poll, but very little substantive, researched information. Now, however, in 2012-2013, we finally have higher quality sources and actual scholarship available on the subject matter. Researchers have finally been able to pour through the thousands of news stories and polls on the movement, personally interview thousands of actual participants, attend actual strategy meetings and audit their group websites and social media -- and the findings and conclusions are now being published. When some of these findings and conclusions are less than flattering, or contradict a long-held but less-accurate narrative established back in 2009/2010, conflict flares up between editors over their use. This has been at the root of many disputes. While I hesitate to use the phrase "tag-team", I will note that there is a fairly consistent dividing line between editors who favor newer, more comprehensive and nuanced research sources and those who prefer news media reports and prominent participants within the movement as sources.

(Problem #2) I've seen heated arguments that claim self-published spokespeople within the Tea Party movement are as reliable, or even more reliable, than uninvolved high quality academic scholarship sources on the same content. I'm not joking. I believe that is a misunderstanding of our Reliable Source policies. I've seen heated arguments claiming that numerous news media reports carry more "weight" than a few high quality academic books published by Oxford and Princeton, simply by virtue of numeric superiority. I believe that is a misapplication of the Due Weight section of our Neutral Point of View policies. This illustrates the second major source of problems in editing Tea Party content: convenient misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages Policies and Guidelines. Editors have argued that because the TP movement is made up of "people", critical content describing the movement as generally anti-immigrant or anti-compromise violate our BLP policy. Editors have argued that numeric superiority of !votes determines WP:Consensus. Editors have argued that our Reliable Sources policy forbids some reliable sources from being used because they may be "biased". Editors have argued that content they personally deemed to be "trivia", "Daily KOS cruft" or "junk" needs to be forked into its own sub-article. Editors have argued that high quality, peer reviewed and heavily cited, academic published works by experts in their field (i.e.; Originalist Constitutionalism; Astroturf Lobbying and Public Relations) can't be used because the Misplaced Pages editor feels they have "redefined" originalism, astroturfing, etc. All of the above illustrate misunderstanding and misuse of Misplaced Pages policy; I'll leave it up to the Committee to determine if it is intentional or merely unfortunate.

Two big problems, and neither are solved or even addressed by this proposal. Page-banning a dozen editors doesn't solve rampant misapplication of Misplaced Pages policy and disdain for editing conventions; it only moves that problem to other articles for six months. It doesn't address the fact that the present article is cobbled together from low-grade sources in a manner that more closely reflects the chaotic development of the movement, instead of the orderly development of an encyclopedia article based on more comprehensive sources. Removing a dozen interested (and perhaps better informed) editors from an article does not create a magic vacuum that will automagically be filled with "uninvolved editors" free from the same biases and behaviors. This proposal doesn't address the almost certainty that the same behavior, good and bad, by all parties will resume six months from now. Behavior does not change when you tell editors that your solution is "not to be taken as a finding of fault". I was quite surprised to read that the Committee does not feel comfortable adopting findings and remedies blaming specific named editors for the ongoing problems - isn't that the very reason we pay you the big bucks? If you insist on being squeamish about sanctioning individuals, have you at least considered adopting evidence-based "findings" anyway, while reserving "remedies" for later if problematic behavior persists? At least that would give editors with genuinely problematic behavior some indication of what needs to be changed or improved. Without at least that much, you are asking to have problematic editors interpret your reluctance to find fault as tacit approval.

This is my first edit ever on this ArbCom case; I haven't made a single comment or introduced a single item of evidence, as I haven't seen a need to do so. Editor participation in these fun-fests usually falls into three categories: defending oneself; prosecuting other editors; offering constructive comments. Hopefully my comments above are informative. As for prosecuting my fellow editors, I'm not a big fan of that - even the ones vociferously screaming for my head on a platter. I didn't try to build cases against other editors at the preceding AN/I discussion, and I didn't do it here even though I easily could. Some editors, through their very actions here, seem bent on convicting themselves. Editors with different, even opposing, perspectives are an inevitability — and in my opinion, a necessity — when editing controversial subject matter, if neutral presentation is to be achieved. I can work productively with any editor involved in this case, even the most venomous, as long as we are all following the same rules (and interpretations thereof - see Problem #2 above).

As for defending myself, SilkTork assured me months ago that even though he was taking the lead in drafting Findings of Fact and Proposals, he was not speaking for every Arbitrator. He assured me that each of you would independently review evidence and form your own reasoned conclusions, and that I need not worry about initial "proposed Findings" concerning me as a lot of that would never become part of the Final Decision. To quote SilkTork, "I'll not be taking over to the PD page any findings that are not relevant, which I think includes the one you are concerned about." I took comfort in seeing that the only Finding of Fact about me that made it to the Final Decision page was: There was no community support for a topic ban, There is little evidence presented in the case to point to sanctions. However, recent events have left me with serious doubts about the actual level of thoroughness and independence employed by this Committee. I don't know what all is going on behind the scenes here, but there have been many indications that you guys are just phoning this one in. (Referring to KC or Malke as "he"? Arbitrarily adding some names and not others to the "Parties" list? Mischaracterizing an account as SPA?)

With only a single finding of fact concerning me on the Proposed Decision page, I've felt no compulsion to post here in my defense. I'm not blind to the considerable amount of text generated on the Evidence and Workshop pages regarding me, but I trust that Arbitrators have not accepted those allegations as fact, and have instead thoroughly investigated the charges. A couple editors have been extraordinarily persistent in repeating, over and over again, how they have provided "immense/massive/truckload/extensive/overwhelming" evidence showing various bad behavior on my part. No doubt I am also the cause of world hunger, climate change and Middle East strife, if you ask them, and they will repeat it ad infinitum until the fiction becomes "truth". The reality is that while they have produced an intimidating quantity of diffs and links, they do not at all convey what the accusers say they do. Ninety-percent of this "evidence" is copied over from the AN/I discussion and an RfC/U and has already been thoroughly examined and debunked here (AN/I) and here (RfC/U) respectively. By "debunked" I don't mean simply excused or rationalized, but actually demonstrated how each example is not problematic as described. Some "evidence", in fact, turns out to be about editors other than me or attributes edits to me that I didn't make, yet they still maintain these "examples" in their lists nonetheless.

As for the more recent accusations against me on this very Talk page, please do take a closer look:

Action requests for Arbitrators

• Here where Collect demands, "OR, SYNTH, POV, and insertion of parenthetical claims which are not supported by sources. Deal with it" -- yes, please do. Note the complete misapplication by Collect of OR & SYNTH policies, lack of "POV" except that conveyed by reliable sources, and no instances of unsupported claims. Also carefully note the associated Talk page (or minimal discussion therein by certain parties), as well as the demeanor of the edit-warring party: Personal attacks.
• Here where ThinkEnemies claims I "rejects this source" and I consider "the Washington Times no longer to be a RS because he finds fault in their publication" -- false, and I request that you verify this. In reality I left the source in the article and merely cautioned ThinkEnemies that I had found errors in the transcription which was performed not by a journalist or reporter, but an opinion writer. (TE had quoted one of the errors in an edit summary.) ThinkEnemies also claims, "Xenophrenic inserts his own OR interpretation and transcription of a non-notable event", which did not happen. As I explained to him on the Talk page, WP:TRANSCRIPTION says: transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research, and per WP:RS: audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources. Per WP:VIDEOREF: A primary source may only be used to make descriptive statements that can be verified by any educated person without specialist knowledge -- which is exactly what I did when I transcribed a plain-English quote, and I even asked him to verify it for good measure. Regarding "notability", Brietbart made an accusation and Trumka, arguably more notable, refuted it -- and ThinkEnemies wants only half of that equation in our article. Please review these carefully, Arbitrators, as the account given by ThinkEnemies is not accurate, and the accusations are distorted. Yet another example misapplication of policy (see "Problem #2" above).
• Here where Phoenix and Winslow accuses me of causing the TPm article to be locked, because Xenophrenic Boldly made a massive edit without consensus. Then I Reverted him, citing the absence of consensus and even citing WP:BRD in my edit summary. What was supposed to happen next was Discussion. Instead Xenophrenic reverted, then Arthur reverted again, and then Xenophrenic violated 1RR. Xenophrenic is the one who broke the prescribed BRD sequence of events, therefore Xenophrenic started the edit war. -- yes, please look carefully at this. Did he revert me, or did he selectively revert some edits of mine, some of ThinkEnemies, while leaving some in? Did he invoke BRD, or did I open discussions at his suggestion, before adding only content that wasn't objected to over almost a week of discussion? Please pay careful attention.
• Arbiter AGK has stated, Frankly, Special:Contributions/Xenophrenic is the epitome of single-purpose account contributing and proposed an indefinite topic ban in the same breath. If you'll allow me to borrow your exact words from the "Proposed decision" page to express my own feelings: That is an outrageous accusation backed up by sloppy facts. I gather by looking at that edit that you think my account has the special purpose of editing "Tea Party" content, and furthermore that you feel that warrants a 1 year ban from that topic area. I respectfully request that you consider the following: 1) More than 80-85% of my account activity is Non-Tea Party related. 2) I was called an SPA back in 2011/12 when I made hundreds of edits almost exclusively on SOPA/PIPA content. I was also called an SPA before that when I edited content almost exclusively about Vietnam War protests & veterans (which still tallies more than my Tea Party contributions even today). All 3 accusations of SPA are wrong, and self-refuting. 3) This account predates the existence of the Tea Party by years, which rather kills the SPA claim. 4) If your statement is based on only the past half-year of edits, please note that I edited the TPm article on only THREE days during the previous half-year. My increased attention to the subject now is only due to the fact that it is in the community spotlight. 5) Here is a true SPA for comparison purposes: User:TeaParty1. I ask you to please strike the unfounded "SPA" accusation, as well as the proposal for a 1 year ban you felt was justified by it. If you feel there is other substantiation for the ban proposal, I request that you provide an appropriately substantiated Finding of Fact to support it. (You might consider this request moot with the impending passage of the current proposal, but I would appreciate having it stricken anyway, because it is already being cited to poison the well at other Talk pages.)
• Could one of the Arbitrators please explain how the present list of "Parties to the case" was developed? If it is derived from participants at the previous AN/I, then you missed some. If you were including editors from the article Talk and Moderated Discussion pages, then you missed some. If it is a list of editors who have edited the article since this case started, then you missed some. I don't understand how some editors arrived on the list. For example, WLRoss is listed as a party, but hasn't made a single edit to any Tea Party article, and only made a few constructive Talk page comments. The only accusation against him I can see is that he "Wikistalked" Phoenix and Winslow to the Tea Party article. I find it fascinating that Phoenix and Winslow would make such a charge, considering that Wikistalking me is exactly how P&W first came to the Tea Party article. Phoenix and Winslow's first ever visit to a TP article was made while I was editing it -- just minutes after revert-warring with me on another article, and just before returning to that other article's Talk page to attack me -- as if to just let me know he was watching me. According to WTT's Talk page, it appears WLRoss is on the list not because of anything to do with this ArbCom, but only because of bad blood from past conflicts.
• Here where Phoenix and Winslow claims " Xenophrenic is trying to use two or three academic sources to overturn 20+ reliable sources," -- would an Arbitrator kindly bring P&W back to reality? Perhaps User:Newyorkbrad, if he is still reviewing accusations to separate fact from hyperbole, can verify that "two or three academic sources" is gross deception, and that I've never attempted to "overturn" a single source presented by him, much less 20. Yet another example of an editor misunderstanding policy (WP:WEIGHT), see "Problem #2" above, as well as misrepresenting the actual disagreement.

Discussion and comments by Arbitrators

Comment by AGK: I would like to selectively quote from the preamble to the motion that is the subject of confusion or opposition:

t has been difficult to arrive at a final decision. Unlike many other disputes resolved in arbitration, the editorial strife on Tea Party movement has not generally resulted from overt user misconduct on the part of one or a small group of editors. the broader problem is that editing on this highly contentious article has been dominated by a group of highly active editors, representing differing points of view, who have been unable to compromise or to develop consensus language for the article.

Although the Committee does not feel comfortable adopting findings and remedies blaming specific named editors for the ongoing problems with the Tea Party movement article, it also concludes that it would not be appropriate simply to dismiss the case without action.

in intractable situations where other measures have proved insufficient to solve a problem, the Committee may adopt otherwise seemingly draconian measures, temporarily or otherwise, as a means of resolving the dispute. We conclude that this is one of the rare cases in which it is necessary to invoke this principle.

In other words, we arbitrators have concluded that removing all the previously-active disputants from the TPM article is the only feasible method of ending the dispute and ensuring the article is stable for our readers in the future. As we have explicitly stated, each individual restriction is not necessarily a reflection on the individual's past or present conduct. Rather, the list of topic bans are simply a long way of saying "If you have previously edited this article, you may not do so for the next few months. Please go and work on a different article and let other people take care of this one." AGK 10:39, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

To pick up on AGK's phrase "previously-active disputants": not everyone on the list would see themselves as a disputant; indeed, observers might see some individuals as working hard in good faith to improve the article and/or to reduce the dispute. What we have done is simply to include those who were active in the dispute process, and not exclude any individuals.

The point we are making is not that the folks on the list are being excluded because they have behaved badly, but simply that they have tried and not been able to improve the article. If we exclude any significant participants that would create a dividing line between those on the list and those not; such a line would suggest those on the list were all guilty of poor behaviour. That is not to say that none of those on the list have behaved badly - some have, and some display on this page behaviours that are not conducive to a positive collegiate working atmosphere; but our role here is to end dispute in order that the encyclopedia can be built, not to simply punish people.

There's been some very bad feeling generated between individuals in the editing of this article, and this has led to extraordinary frustrations. Those who have edited contentious articles on Misplaced Pages will empathize with others who get caught up in the savage frustrations that can occur. Even the most patient of us can lose our cool now and again. This is not to excuse some of the incivility, but it can put it into perspective.

Six months on Misplaced Pages is not a long time. Indeed, this ArbCom case has already dragged on for five months, with the article locked for much of that time. We are building this project for future generations. Editing an article on Misplaced Pages is like placing a brick in the Great Pyramid of Giza. We are taking part in something monumental and impressive. Waiting six months in the context of what we are attempting to achieve is not much. And if some people feel that their efforts have not been appreciated, I understand and sympathize with that. In general much of what all of us do isn't appreciated. As members of ArbCom we are only too aware of that. Yes, some people may be put off helping out because their efforts are not appreciated. But good people will still step forward. I have no doubt of that. The Misplaced Pages community is one of the most impressive aspects of this project - the dedication and selflessness of the volunteers is breath-taking. Yes, there are bad apples, and they tend to get most of the attention. But the bulk of the community roll up their sleeves everyday, and get on with the job. SilkTork 20:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Counterproposal

Amend your motion, or present a new one. Procedure allows two such motions to be pending and voted upon simultaneously, and it also allows motions to be amended. Whichever remedy you feel would be most likely to succeed, go for it.

• The evidence against Xenophrenic and Goethean is overwhelming. Extensive histories of tendentious editing, battleground behavior and editwarring, with a history of blocks for it. In Xenophrenic's case, barely escaping without being blocked and topic banned just a couple of weeks ago, despite starting an editwar, violating 1RR and getting the article fully protected. In Goethean's case, at least one ArbCom member has noticed how he darts in at key editwarring moments and reverts, and his comments on the Talk page and at the RfC/U are actionable. Indefinite topic bans for both, appealable after a year.

• The oversighted BLP violations by Ubikwit and ThinkEnemies, coupled with evidence against Ubikwit that Malke has just brought to light, are also very damaging. One-year topic ban for Ubikwit, appealable after six months. Six-month topic ban for ThinkEnemies, appealable after three months.

• The Wikistalking evidence against WLRoss is also overwhelming. This is the classic open and shut case. He Wikistalked me after his extensive BLP violations were removed at the Franklin article, he was called to discuss his Wikistalking on User talk:MONGO, he was notified on that page that there's a problem with "Wikihounding," he said that he'd "stopped editing Tea Party movement as soon as was brought up," and six weeks later after the heat had died down, there he was again at Talk:Tea Party movement, joining the other side in a content dispute. Permanent topic bans from all articles and Talk pages related to Ugg boots, Franklin child prostitution ring allegations, 9/11 related articles, and of course Tea Party movement, with an interaction ban protecting me.

Make it clear in all five cases that these topic bans and the interaction ban are the direct result of their misconduct, to protect these articles and the Misplaced Pages project.

Then return to moderated editing with an admin or ArbCom member volunteering as moderator. In the alternative to the moderated discussion, a two-month mandatory break from Tea Party movement and its Talk pages for everybody not named above who has participated at all on the Moderated Discussion page, as determined by the contrib history of that page, including an explicit statement that it is a no-fault mandatory break. This includes such editors as Snowded and ArtifexMayhem.

This solution zeroes in on the worst offenders and removes them from the equation. Progress was being made in moderated discussion, greater progress than had been made in the previous three years, despite obstructions by those who will be removed from the equation. Remove them and let the rest of us get back to work, either now, or 60 days from now. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

ThinkEnemies was blocked by SilkTork for criticizing the opinion of an author who specializes in the projection of their own racial bias onto others, but that comment wasn't bad enough to be hatted, reverted and especially not "oversighted" by the blocking admin. The fact it was posted on a moderated talk page and ThinkEnemies had only arrived two weeks beforehand presented an appealing opportunity for SilkTork to lay down the law. I can't speak for Ubikwit or their own WP:BLPTALK indiscretion as it has been oversighted. I'd assume it was something more serious. On the other hand, the OP's block for edit-warring on TPM and forum shopping on the dramaboards should warrant further scrutiny. †TE†Talk 20:23, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• ThinkEnemies was blocked by SilkTork for criticizing the opinion of an author ... Wow, you're right. My mistake. I apologize. I was taking it as a given that when you were blocked for it, it really was a BLP violation serious enough to be oversighted. Ubikwit, on the other hand, called a living person a sociopath, presumably without any formal training or licensing as a mental health professional and without interviewing the individual. But he wasn't blocked. Instead, he was given a barnstar. And Xenophrenic, of all people, also received a barnstar. Meanwhile, all that ThinkEnemies, North8000 and I got were blocks and week-long topic bans. Members of the Arbitration Committee are cordially invited to review the offenses for which we were blocked and topic banned, and determine for themselves whether they rise to the level of Ubikwit calling a living person a sociopath, or Xenophrenic violating 1RR (with his recent history of a 48-hour block for editwarring in February). regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Discrepancies in ArtifexMayhem's evidence

ArtifexMayhem's evidence does not accurately reflect the chain of events he recounts nor does it accurately reflect the source he's claiming editors opposed. Nor does he present the context within which all of this occurred.

• Ubikwit makes this change in TPm lede (without any prior discussion on the talk page) on April 8, 2013:
• He gets reverted with the editor reverting mentioning that the stable lede is the result of mediation.
• But in his evidence, ArtifexMayhem claims that the discussion he then links to is directly related to this edit. But it is not. Instead, it is linking to a discussion in June related to an edit made by another editor who changed the lede: John Paul’s edit:
• Shortly after on June 15, Ubikwit opens a discussion about the edit and suggests that his edit from April be restored. Casprings agrees with him and votes, "Support."
• On June 17, Ubikwit makes the edit claiming he has consensus when it’s really only been 24 hours and the “consensus” is just himself and Casprings: .
• And with this edit, Ubikwit puts in a new source: . The problem is, Ubikwit's source doesn't discuss constitutional originalism. Ubikwit doesn't understand at that point that there is a difference between popular constitutionalism and constitutional originalism.
• Ubikwit informs SilkTork on his talk page that he’s made an edit and expects opposition to it. .
• Phoenix and Winslow opens a thread to assess editors’ reactions. He begins by saying, “This is in response to Ubikwit's editing of the lede sentence and introducing the words, "constitutional originalism.". Note that when ArtifexMayhem presents this ivote, he leaves off "This is in response to Ubikwit's editing of the lede senctence and introducing the words "constitutional originalism." Instead, he gives the impression that the editors are against the source only.
• Because there's been no discussion and no consensus, Ubikwit is allowed to self-revert. .
• ArtifexMayhem has combined the two events making it appear that the opposition is to the academic source mentioned in the New York Times article, but in fact, it is to the fact that he made the edit in the first place without any consensus, and put in a new source which does not support his edit anymore the other one did. Neither source supports Ubikwit's edit. The first source a book, "The People Themselves: Popular Constitutionalism and Judicial Review" by Larry D. Kramer, doesn't even have originalism in it per a word search in the book for "originalism" and "constitutional originalism." The second source, a law review article, speaks to the TPm's "popular constitutionalism," and doesn't support the edit either.

In his ivote on the current motion, NuclearWarfare said in part, “. . .there ought to be some giant blinking red light telling them that they went too far when they started to refute academic sources based on their personal beliefs.” But he does not name editors, nor does he offer diffs to comments that show these editors espousing their opposition to the academic sources based on their personal beliefs.

Malke 2010 (talk) 21:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I think NuclearWarfare was talking about me. And I think, with all due respect, there are a couple of things he's overlooked. It is NOT my position that they're unreliable sources. Xenophrenic is trying to use two or three academic sources to overturn 20+ reliable sources, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune, and CBS News, and claim that the minority viewpoint per WP:WEIGHT is really the majority viewpoint. All I've tried to do is demonstrate that the two or three academic sources that actually do support his position don't deserve that much weight. As editors we are allowed to consider a lot of different factors in determining the amount of weight to be assigned to a particular source. See WP:CONTEXT.

MastCell presented the Perrin source on the article's Talk page (not the MD page), that was the approach that I used, and again my effort was misinterpreted as an attempt to declare that it's an unreliable source. I'm just trying to determine how much weight to assign to it. North8000 has also discussed this when he mentions sources that satisfy the "floor" of WP:RS. Three reliable sources can't outweight 20+ reliable sources unless their quality is simply overwhelming, and the quality of the 20+ is somehow suspect. All I was saying is that the quality of those three sources is not overwhelming. And I'm sure that a thorough review would confirm this. NuclearWarfare, and the other ArbCom members who support this motion, have indicated that "for whatever reason," such a thorough review is not being done in this case. Which makes me wonder why I invested the time to compile the evidence for them to review.

This brings me back around to Xenophrenic and the other editors who really are obstructing progress on the article. The nature of their low-level, relentless guerrilla warfare is such that you can't point to one or two diffs and say, "There it is. That's why you need to block this ." You really need to post 100 diffs and examine them with some degree of care and detail, to demonstrate that yes, he's pushing a POV and yes, he's editwarring and yes, he really is being tendentious. "For whatever reason," ArbCom is unable or unwilling to review those diffs once we take the time and effort to compile them. Therefore, "for whatever reason," ArbCom cannot or will not protect Misplaced Pages from a tendentious, POV-pushing SPA like Xenophrenic.

NuclearWarfare and the other ArbCom members who support this motion are also avoiding a decision on WLRoss and his painfully obvious Wikistalking, which has led to more than two years of content disputes at Ugg boots and related articles. WLRoss is another example of a low-level guerrilla warrior, always careful to stay under the radar. NuclearWarfare is one of the two current and former ArbCom members (along with FloNight) who stubbed the Franklin article after a truckload of really ugly BLP violations. NuclearWarfare is familiar with WLRoss, and his motive for retaliation. And NuclearWarfare, "for whatever reason," is doing nothing about it. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 09:57, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I will add that Xenophrenic and WLRoss haven't even shown up here at ArbCom to say "Hello, not guilty." They're too busy elsewhere, being tendentious. (Here's Xenophrenic at WP:FTN, abusing Collect and tendentiously pushing his POV, for those who care about such matters.) Clearly they consider spending even one minute on an ArbCom case to be a waste of their valuable POV-pushing time. And they're still winning the case. So why did we go to all this trouble to assemble all these diffs about their behavior? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 10:03, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposed motion

I agree with Courcelles' comment here. It's time Findings of Fact were presented with evidence. And I'd like the FOF on me to be corrected. I have not been active on the TPm article since January 2010. I had not edited that article in over 2.5 years. My blocks are three years old and not at all related to the TPm. I did have over 500 edits to the article (all in 2010) but as SilkTork noted I had 13 reverts and three of those were for vandalism. That's 10 reverts out of over 500 edits. I participated in the moderated discussion because SilkTork claimed that as the "leading contributor" I had to agree to the moderated discussion or there wouldn't be one. I opposed it in the beginning because it seemed to me it would put editors who participated at an unfair advantage and could lead to ArbCom sanctions. I didn't break any rules of that page, nor did I violate any Misplaced Pages rules. There's not been any evidence presented that shows I deserve to be here. And I'd like to point out that I was editing while being subjected to relentless hounding and personal attacks by Ubikwit which included a groundless ANI complaint. Malke 2010 (talk) 18:53, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Decision Suggestion

If I could make a suggestion, I would create a two month period when the article is off limits to any editor with significant(any) involvement in American Politics. I would recruit some un-involved editors to work on the article. With the work that is already done on the talk page and the moderated discussion, creating a very good quality article should be low hanging fruit for truly un-involved editors. I would argue the work is basically there and one could get the article to WP:FA in that time period. Casprings (talk) 23:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Another proposal — this one may be more attractive

ArbCom reviews cases in the same way that the United States Supreme Court does: every member is expected to sift through all the evidence on every case. However, the USSC rejects about 90% of the cases petitioned for review. Also, they assign a lot of the reading and research to their law clerks, who are expected to write a reliable and very thoroughly researched memorandum, which the justices then rely upon in making their decisions. And they have a lot more clerks than ArbCom does. Frankly, ArbCom just doesn't have the clerks or the options to handle its case load that way, when confronted with a monster like this one.

I suggest that ArbCom should try handling this case in a manner that learns a few lessons from America's lesser courts of appeal: the federal district courts, and appellate courts of the 50 states. In those courts, the justices divide into panels of three, each panel is chaired by a senior justice, and each case is assigned to a panel. They have fewer clerks than the USSC but they also assign a lot of reviewing and research work to the clerks. And in an appellate court with nine justices (for example), they have three such panels, so they hear and issue prompt decisions on three times as many cases as the USSC.

In this case, I suggest that you divide into panels of three, each panel being chaired by one of the most active ArbCom members who have not recused themselves. The other ArbCom members could be assigned randomly. Each panel gets one clerk. Each panel reviews the evidence on an equal share of the editors in question. An effort should be made to ensure that each panel has a roughly equivalent workload. In a couple of weeks, each panel submits a brief report to the committee as a whole. The report summarizes the evidence against each editor reviewed, and proposed sanctions if any. For example, "Editor ABC was editwarring on one occasion and engaged in a few moments of battleground behavior with some unkind remarks in moderated discussion, but also made several attempts to compromise and was for the most part cordial and cooperative. No sanctions are indicated here."

On an individual basis, if an ArbCom member accepts the report at face value, he should vote for (or against) sanctions accordingly. If the member feels the report may not be accurate, he is still welcome to conduct his own investigation into the evidence. I think this proposal would break up the logjam, make the pending motion unnecessary, and get this case moving in an appropriate direction. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua's comment

I agree with KC that editors should not have been added after the evidence phase/workshop with the exception of Ubikwit. His actions and his record speak for themselves.

As for the others, I have been over the TPm talk page, especially from the early years and I can't find a single comment that justifies adding The Four Deuces, Collect, or ThinkEnemies to this complaint. In fact, as I recall in my time editing the TPm back in 2010, The Four Deuces was, and still is, a very collegial fellow and did not once push a POV. The same is true for ThinkEnemies. As far as Collect, my experience with him has been on the moderated discussion and other than an edit-war kerfluffle on one of the sub-pages, Collect has also been very collegial, very productive on that page, and not at all pushing a POV. I support dismissing them from the case.

As for Phoenix and Winslow, he's being accused of not going along with a source. Whatever sins Phoenix and Winslow may have committed on the moderated discussion, he learned from his mistakes and his block/bans and he didn't do it again. I'd also like to point out, he arrived at the moderated discussion in all sincerity to improve the article, to help create the sub-articles, and his work helped accomplish the goals that were met there. As for the other editor mentioned, WLRoss, I don't know him at all, nor can I find any evidence that he belongs here either. Whatever issue he has with P&W doesn't belong here anymore than Casprings' issue with Arzel belongs here.

These editors have all been placed at a terrible disadvantage because none of them is in a position to present exculpatory evidence since none of them has been given a clear understanding of what they've done wrong. No evidence has been offered to show egregious behaviours requiring ArbCom sanctions. With the exception of Ubikwit, I support dismissing them from the case. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

How's about this?

Any of the listed editors can voluntarily submit to a 2-month topic ban from editing the Tea Party movement and all associated subpages, including talk and sandboxes. It's my observation that more than a few contributors listed have already supported the current motion. One can only assume they'd be happy to accept two months instead of the proposed six. Refusal to accept the terms of this offer will result in an up-or-down vote on the individual editor by ArbCom using whatever criteria they see fit. The penalty being a mandatory 6-month topic ban from the Tea Party movement and all associated subpages, including talk and sandbox. If ArbCom finds evidence insufficient for the mandatory sentence, the individual editor will be permitted to resume editing at Tea Party movement and all subpages under the current discretionary sanctions.

†TE†Talk 13:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Missing parties to the case Parties who should be listed under the Motion for final decision

• KillerChihuahua (talk · contribs) - Previously a party Still an "involved party."

• Snowded (talk · contribs) - Participant at Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion and yesterday POV tagged Agenda of the Tea Party movement.

• Casprings (talk · contribs) - Participant at Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion.

• ArtifexMayhem (talk · contribs) - Participant at Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion.

• Binksternet (talk · contribs) - Participant at Talk:Tea_Party_movement and at least 2 related articles.

Just a few more going through the edit history. †TE†Talk 14:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua:

"There was a decision to have a "Remedy" that nothing needed to be done about me, since I'd done nothing wrong, and it seemed silly to me (and several Arbs) to have that as a final remedy, so at my suggestion/request, they took it out - on my part, I thought it was a bad precedent to have "remedies" with no problem and which did nothing. Was I wrong?"

That's not for me to answer. Maybe whoever drafted this Motion for Final Decision can help:

The Committee notes that the purpose of these page-bans is to give previously uninvolved editors an opportunity to make a fresh start toward compromise on the contents of the Tea Party movement article, and are not to be taken as a finding of fault on the part of any or all of the named editors.

How you're not listed "eludes" many of us. †TE†Talk 17:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua, you look involved here. And the problem is, North8000 had been editing that article well before any issue on Tea Party movement talk.

Goethean came to you and asked you to intervene in an argument he was having with others on the TPm talk, you didn't arrive there independently, but ever wonder why Goethean asked you instead of going to ANI and asking for community input? You were already involved on another article with an editor he clearly does not like. (See his personal attacks/incivility below.)

You said the TPm environ was toxic. But you didn't provide any evidence to support that. Below are some of Goethean's comments to editors at TPm talk. He made 191 edits to that page. Of those some are copy edits, of the rest 94 comments are directed at North8000, all of them incivil. Included below are comments to others as well.

• “And another lazy, inscrutable non-sequitor by the class clown caps off another discussion.”

• “Please spare me and the other readers of this page from your pathetic whining. . .”

• “. . .your comments are completely unhelpful and borderline spam. Please contribute to the discussion in a mature manner or just shut up.”

• “I was saying ‘Wow’ at your comments which are quite divorced from realty, reveal a comfort level with racism, and are internally inconsistent. . .”

• “Bullshit.”

• “Actually I’m being more polite and charitable than your comments warrant. . .”

• “No that’s not what the source says, try reading.”

• “You have proved nothing apart from your own rhetoric.”

• “Your attempts at media criticism are off-topic and not of interest”

• “Distinguishing inscrutable nonsequitor from my own comments.”

• “Please watch your tongue. . .” At least he said “please”

• “As usual your comments are strictly partisan, have no relation to Misplaced Pages policy, and can be ignored as irrelevant.”

• “When all you have is a hammer.”

• “I can’t tell you how gratifying that is.”

• “Oh wow, really?”

• “Please watch your tongue. . .It is not I who has been incessantly pushing. . .”

• “Maybe you are right and everybody else is wrong.”

• “Yes I know, your near constant advocacy, which has lasted how many months now. . .”

• “Sockpuppet of a now blocked right-winger."

• “Based on what Misplaced Pages policy?”

• “As usual, your comments are strictly partisan, have no relation to Misplaced Pages policy, and can be ignored as irrelevant.”

• “Is that based on anything other than Malke’s freelance reporting work?”

• “. . .User Darkstar1 has failed miserably and at ridiculous length to make his improbable and hair-splitting point. This conversation has long ago exceeded WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Not everyone’s patience for this patent nonsense is as extensive as WillBeback’s.”

• “Darkstar1 do you think that you understand political science terminology better than the editors of Foreign Affairs magazine

• Reverts IP who asks a question

Still think North8000 is the problem?

Malke 2010 (talk) 19:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

BTW "I can’t tell you how gratifying that is" was Goethean sarcastically shredding an olive branch that I offered. North8000 (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I did see that olive branch but I didn't want to add commentary. On the proposed motion AGK commented to Courcelles that part of the problem was that editors just couldn't get along, so I spent the weekend, off and on going through the archives. No matter what, Xenophrenic was still a likable guy as we all know. No matter how frustrating things seemed, you still had to like and respect the guy. I then read Goethean's talk page comments. I read all 191 of them. I never realized what a hard time you'd been having because I wasn't around anymore. I couldn't believe those comments and yet you stayed civil and even tried to be friends, as did the others, I must add. But over 90 of those comments were directed at you. And they were rough. Well done you. Malke 2010 (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is what North8000 calls an olive branch. — goethean 21:15, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, for someone who has said all of the above and more to me, it was a reach and a genuine start. Here's another one. Let's be genuinely friendly and eventually friends. Continuing to disagree on and bluntly criticizing and argue against arguments and edits is fine and not inconsistent with that. But trying to "win" by deprecating the individual would definitely be inconsistent with that. North8000 (talk) 21:26, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, let's be friends. — goethean 21:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Realistically, first genuinely friendly and then friends. North8000 (talk) 00:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Where the problem really is - diff provided for anyone willing to look at it

demonstrates OR, SYNTH, POV, and insertion of parenthetical claims which are not supported by sources. Deal with it, instead of the cloud-cuckoo-land topic-banning of editors chosen arbitrarily, without evidence or findings of any sort, who have not been given any opportunity to answer the claims which have not even been made about them, and where the original complainant of the case says that some editors do not belong here. BTW, should the "motion" pass, I shall take a "long leave of absence" from patrolling BLPs etc. I suggest that since we have not been given the courtesy of having time to present evidence to contradict the non-existent charges, that ArbCom shall have violated its remit as given by the community. Cheers. Now look at the damn diff and tell us what you think it shows. Collect (talk) 15:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not about evidence. It's about which political view you are perceived to hold. The evidence against Xenophrenic, Goethean and Ubikwit is overwhelming. There is no evidence to warrant an ArbCom case against the rest of us. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be the correct Misplaced Pages view to hold. . Malke 2010 (talk) 16:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

That's an interesting diff. Its first paragraph is probably the most honest and self-aware thing that any of the participants have said on the subject to date. The second paragraph seems to be a response to your rather odd description of the New York Times as a questionable source. MastCell  18:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

MastCell, here's what is really odd. You could not stop going on about North8000 making a BLP violation from two years ago. But we've not seen one word from you regarding Ubikwit's oversighted BLP violation from two months ago. Now that's odd. And as regards the NYTimes, that I believe the NYTimes will always present it's view of things in the best light, that has never stopped me from using the New York Times as a source. And if you bother to search the edit history, you'll see I've used the NYTimes many, many times. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

In that case, it would have been helpful if you'd taken a stand for appropriate sourcing (as defined by this site's guidelines), rather than enabling some of the more fanciful approaches to sourcing which have dominated this subject area. I haven't seen Ubikwit's BLP violation (perhaps because it's been oversighted), but if people who have seen it feel it's sanction-worthy then he should be sanctioned. MastCell  19:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Since you've not provided diffs to the whole conversation, I can't really tell what I should or should not have done. It may be I was simply trying to mediate an argument. Unlike you, who seems anxious to start one. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:34, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

. It has been revdeleted, not oversighted. NW (Talk) 19:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Interestingly, that conversation, in which Malke 2010 and North8000 attempted to remove the portions of the article that contain negative material about the TPM, began a mere four days after User:Will Beback was indefinitely blocked.. Will Beback's block, and the subsequent attempts to capitalize on the vacuum left by his absence, could be seen as what sparked, or worsened, the current dispute. — goethean 20:10, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Interestingly, you have no diffs to support your conspiracy claim. Nor do you have diffs that link this conversation to any removal of material from the article especially any removal by me, nor do you have diffs of me participating in any argument between you and North that caused you to ask KillerChihuahua to mediate. Nor do you have any diffs to show that I was even aware of WillBeBack's blocks and subsequent troubles on Misplaced Pages, which as I have since learned, had nothing to do with the TPm. It's just another nasty comment, which if you'll bother to see above, you've got quite a history of making. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:44, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

In most of those diffs, the text that you elided and replaced with ellipses was the more interesting and relevant material. I trust the readers of this page to go more deeply and to look at my comments in context rather than taking your claims at face value. — goethean 21:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The insults you made to others is the point of the posting. And note, I did provide the diff so that the whole comment could be read. So your complaint is what exactly? The insults are still insults. Malke 2010 (talk) 21:10, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The observation is that you deliberately removed the context in order to make the comments appear worse. But that's okay; at this point, I think that readers of this page are wise to such tactics. — goethean 21:21, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

And that observation speaks to who you are, not to who I am. I provided the diff. And you haven't pointed to any comment that is rendered civil by the addition of the full comment. And you also seem to be missing what I'm sure everyone else has noted, you've not expressed any regret or embarrassment at what you've said to others. Malke 2010 (talk) 21:37, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I did not do as good a job as I should have. If I could go back, I would do things differently.

There is a group of editors here who have some very peculiar ideas about Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. North8000 thinks that the NYT is on a par with Rush Limbaugh in terms of reliability. And you apparently agreed with him (even if you no longer do). If the Arbitration Committee thinks that you and North8000 should be empowered to re-write the article without my input, they have the power to implement that decision right now. The fact that they have not done so tells me that I am not completely wrong when I think that some of the ideas here about policy are rather peculiar. — goethean 22:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

You would do things differently? You've still not pointed to any comment that is rendered civil by the addition of the full comment. Nor have you expressed any regret or embarrassment for the things you've said to editors on the Tea Party movement talk page. Malke 2010 (talk) 01:09, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

New discussion

I'd like to see a diff that shows I have anything but contempt for Rush Limbaugh let alone one that shows I compared the New York Times, which has a world-class fact checking department, to that guy. And the only thing peculiar here are your assumptions. Malke 2010 (talk) 22:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I just went through the few comments I made to the talk page in 2011 and 2012 and I can't find a single diff that shows me stating that the New York Times is the same as Rush Limbaugh. Where exactly is that conversation? Malke 2010 (talk) 23:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

MastCell supplied the diff above. Here is the list of sources that User:Lionelt linked to and whose bias you compared to that of the NYT, saying: "Xenophrenic, why are Lionelt's sources biased but your source, the NYTimes, is not? The left leaning bias of the NYTimes is legend." The list includes such gems as American Renaissance (magazine), a magazine which embraces racialist theories. — goethean 23:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Whoa! No, I DID NOT compare Lionelt's list to the NYTimes. I DID NOT compare "bias." I DID NOT say anything about that list or even look at it. I didn't come up with that list. My question was to learn the difference that Xenophrenic saw between them. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between that and what you are suggesting I did. HUGE. One is the truth the other is totally not the truth. Do you have diffs of any follow-up arguments to point to that would show me defending any source, or even naming a source, on Lionelt's list? Of course you don't because I never did that. And that's not at all what my question to Xenophrenic was about. It's obvious what I'm asking there.

And here is another instance where you've done the same. You accused me of saying that right wing sources are more reliable than left wing sources. So I asked you to show me where I'd said that. But you couldn't show me, because you'd made a mistake. But rather than saying, "Sorry Malke, I meant to reply to North," instead, you blame me for your mistake by saying "there seems very little different between your positions" You fail to notice that I not only didn't have a position, I'd never made the comment at all.

• You accuse me of something I'd not done, so I ask you to show me where I'd said it:

@Goethean, please show me where I said that right wing sources are more reliable than left wing sources? Malke 2010 (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• You realize you've made a mistake but instead of admitting it, you blame me for it:

I intended to reply to User:North8000 (there seems to be very little different between your positions), who said that 'the NYT is about as biased as Rush Limbaugh.' No offense, but that's a crazy statement. — goethean ॐ 22:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Why are you telling me "that's a crazy statement." I didn't say it. And "very little different between your positions"? What position are you speaking of there? I never said anything about Rush Limbaugh, nor do I recall having a position other than loathing him in the same way that I imagine most women on the planet do. You apparently are not at all familiar with the things he says about women.

You've made a nearly identical error accusing me of trying to remove a "peer reviewed source," here when I'd done no such thing.

I pointed it out to you and you had to strike it here.

Also, you said that if you get topic-banned, and North and I don't, that the Arbs are concerned that we'll edit the article without you? We edited the moderated discussion, along with several others, without you. And now there are several subarticles. Progress was made. Without you. Malke 2010 (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure that things are going swimmingly. That's why you have Collect at the top of this thread demanding(!) that ARBCOM ban Xenophrenic while he is also demanding(!) that ARBCOM not ban Collect. Because as long as there is one non-conservative editing the article and standing up to the conservative harmonious editing club, that non-conservative must be banned from the article. That's not exactly what I would call a well-functioning editing atmosphere. — goethean 14:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

As I made no such demand, but proffered a diff showing where the problem really appears to be, I find your demeanour to be less than collegial as a minimum, and trolling in all likelihood to boot. BTW, I am not a "conservative" but simply try to follow Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. Nice try at defaming editors, though, but Ikip is now gone. Collect (talk) 14:36, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, okay. I apologize for defaming you by calling you a conservative.

Here are some of the edits that misled me. In the first, you removed seven paragraphs of material, some of it sourced to FoxNews, the Washington Post, The Guardian, The Washington Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Dayton Daily News, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and CNN. In the edit summary for the second edit, you claimed that an article in the academic journal Tobacco Review "is not RS for making a contentious claim involving living persons per WP:BLP". — goethean 16:55, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

1. It would be nice if you avoided POV argumentation here and did not grossly overstate your case. In fact, where the source for later news articles in "reliable sources" violates BLP, then those articles also violate BLP. Being one step removed from a primary source does not affect whether a claim is a BLP violation or not. 2. I suggest you look at my 30,000 edits on other articles before making "assume" a byword for you. Can you assign any political position to the Joseph Widney article? Specifically my "conservative" edits about Australian and UK political figures, my edits on Canadian issues, my edits on US politics, etc. Basing your categorization of any editor on well he removed material citing BLP is not only absurd, it is non-collegial and inane. Collect (talk) 17:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

In fact, where the source for later news articles in "reliable sources" violates BLP, then those articles also violate BLP.

You lost me here. Can you explain what this means? My understanding is that WP:BLP says that material about living persons must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source. But your explanation makes it sound like that's not good enough. Please elaborate. — goethean 18:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sort of lost as well. Collect's first point, above, directly contradicts Misplaced Pages policy. Sources that are "at least one step removed" from primary sources are called secondary sources. Contrary to Collect's assertion, the question of whether or not an edit violates WP:BLP often turns on this distinction. Cases abound in which citing a primary source would violate WP:BLP, but citing a secondary source describing that primary source is appropriate or even essential. I'll file this misunderstanding among the many odd ideas about sourcing which have taken hold among editors in this topic area. MastCell  18:30, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

You misapprehend the problem -- since the original source violated WP:BLP in my opinion, sources iterating a BLP violation are still violative of BLP. Cheers. - but you are now carping over a WP policy which, as far as I can tell, is clear about contentious claims about living people. Contentious claims require strong sourcing, not iterations of the same original source. Nor do I see why holding strong and consistent views about WP:BLP makes one into a "conservative", "liberal" or "Gnarphist" by any stretch of the imagination. Collect (talk) 20:38, 7 August 2013 (UTC) Collect (talk) 20:38, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to know what the "original source" is that you refer to, which you claim violated BLP, and which renders any secondary source, no matter how reliable, (including such sources as The Washington Post, for example) to be violative of BLP. You removed seven paragraphs of material which was cited to reliable sources, claiming that the material violated BLP. Reading WP:BLP, the material did not violate WP:BLP. Please explain your understanding of BLP on which material referenced to the Washington Post et. al. violates BLP. — goethean 20:48, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Huh? That has "nothing to do with the price of eggs". What is important is that trying to categorize anyone politically on the basis of properly conducted discussions on appropriate noticeboards does not work, never has worked, and never will work. This particular page is decidedly ill-suited for re-arguing decisions long since made. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, so Collect's personal understanding of BLP policy (let's call it C-BLP), on the basis of which it is proper to remove what seems like well-sourced material, will forever remain a mystery. — goethean 20:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that what they were essentially saying is that wp:BLP says that there is an even higher standard for contentious BLP material. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, obviously. I'm interested in discovering what that standard is, and why it must be adhered to, according to Collect, if it is not articulated in WP:BLP. It shouldn't be that hard to explain. — goethean 22:33, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

IMHO it's unclear at wp:blp. The existence of a separate section and the general wording in that section indicate a even higher standard for contentious BLP items. But the specific operative wording in that section specifies something that sounds the same as regular wp:blp. North8000 (talk) 00:18, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's another mystery about Collect's abuse of WP:BLP -- what living persons, exactly, was he defending with his edits? The unnamed people in attendence at a Tea Party Rally? For all we know, they could all be dead, and there are no living people that he is defending! and what living person does this edit affect? It is becoming clear that Collect's BLP policy includes anything that Collect doesn't like. — goethean 00:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Ad hom attacks on editors do not make for proper discussion on this page, nor on any page whatsoever on Misplaced Pages. That discussion was over some time ago, and I see no reason in hell why you are pursuing it here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Read discussions at WP:BLP/N before making such aspersions and see what edits I do make there. I trust you will find I edit in accord with all Misplaced Pages policies, and I find your continued argumentation here to be less than worthwhile. Adios. Collect (talk) 11:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Where the problem still is -- A diff maybe MC or whoever else will actually look at instead of passing over it to comment on other stuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tea_Party_protests&curid=21898839&diff=567572312&oldid=567414929

• Xenophrenic rejects this source http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/apr/06/audio-rep-carson-first-peddles-out-racism-story-re/ and all content associated with it because "...the audio clip transcription produced by that Breitbart opinion writer, Kerry Picket, in the Washington Times piece has several errors." So I guess because Xenophrenic considers Kerry Picket to be a secret Breitbart agent and the Washington Times no longer to be a RS because he finds fault in their publication -- It justifies a thorough scrubbing by Xenophrenic and burial behind content for which it has absolutely nothing to due with and is now cited, i.e. Congressman Emanuel Cleaver said as he walked several yards behind Lewis, he distinctly heard "nigger."

Good work.

• Xenophrenic inserts his own OR interpretation and transcription of a non-notable event because: "'Notability' is a requirement for article creation, not content within a Misplaced Pages article," and "transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research." Well, I may not have a fancy wiki-law degree but I believe notability, or noteworthiness, or whatever you want to call it does factor into the equation when using primary sourcing of events that haven't been covered in any meaningful way by secondary sources. It would take extraordinary circumstances for me to hold the view of Xenophrenic in this area. Could you imagine a Misplaced Pages where any trivial nonsense deemed notable, or noteworthy by pseudonymous wikipedians would warrant such inclusion?

That's not a project for me.

There's more like his gross misrepresentation of sources in relation to Breitbart and a complete hitjob on Health Shuler we can discuss, and even more after that if any Arbs are willing to nut up. †TE†Talk 21:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

UPDATE: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tea_Party_protests&curid=21898839&diff=567602011&oldid=567572312

• Xenophrenic, upon reading this discussion as he's been shown to do here, has decided to move the source he previously rejected up to the content he utilized to replace the sourced content from the Washington Times of which he found unreliable. Now we have misrepresentation of yet another ref. The content from that Breitbart opinion writer, Kerry Picket, does not support the content: "One guy, I remember he just rattled it off several times. Then John looks at me and says, 'You know, this reminds me of a different time."

Instead, text from this source newly cited by Xenophrenic in the same detail he finds important would go something like: When asked how many people were saying it, Carson replied: "Maybe fifteen people about fifteen times." This quote discrepancy is just the most glaring. We'd then move onto other content from other sources. I've offered numerous scenarios where content from both sources are used in a responsible way, separate from eachother. Xenophrenic always declines, be it his known OWNership issues or what may be an even larger problem, a pattern Xenophrenic displays on sources -- The most opinionated and scathing against this movement he despises must get top billing. Period. It's a verifiable fact. If anyone cares. †TE†Talk 23:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

From WP:NOTABLE: "The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic should have its own article." Article content is regulated in this context by WP:WEIGHT, a subsection of WP:NPOV. (No comment on anything else). Nformation 23:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, and when this subject is deemed notable and given an article, anything and more appropriately, everything in regards to this notable person, place or thing can and should be added. No questions asked, no guidelines required. That's wicked smaaart. †TE†Talk 00:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

But, moving on from WP:OR which I'm correct in citing, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV are both violated on the regular by the aforementioned editor.

†TE†Talk 00:04, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's literally exactly what I wrote and/or what the notability policy says ಠ_ಠ. Nformation 05:38, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Alright, but I've already swapped notable with noteworthy, so as not to confuse the powdered wigs. Sure both have the same meaning in the vernacular of commoners such as myself, but apparently not according to wiki-law. If you've read my comments it should've been abundantly clear WP:OR is the violation being cited, not some strawman as if we're talking about a newly-created article. Now, let's not further engage in obfuscation of the issue. †TE†Talk 12:16, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Is this the longest Arbitration Case in Misplaced Pages History?

Should the five weeks the case was formally suspended for the moderated discussion count? Someone should open an RfC so we can discuss the matter. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposed "motion for final decision" may exceed ArbCom's remit

IMO, it may be beyond ArbCom's authority (as currently defined) to enact this "motion for final decision" (imposing a six-month page ban on most of the parties to this case). In the absence of any findings of fact establishing specific misconduct by individual editors, this case can no longer be said to be a conduct dispute — rather, it is a content dispute, and ArbCom has not been authorized to impose binding decisions to resolve content disputes. I can't find anything, either in the Arbitration Policy or in the Banning Policy, to justify such a sanction either by ArbCom or by the community (with the possible, but very iffy, exception of an interaction ban imposed on all editors involved). If I'm mistaken here, I would welcome a correction. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 22:04, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

• Rich, I had wondered about that too. The operative clause would seem to be in the 'Policy and precedent' section in 'Arbitration Policy,' which reads The arbitration process is not a vehicle for creating new policy by fiat. The Committee's decisions may interpret existing policy and guidelines, recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct, or create procedures through which policy and guidelines may be enforced. The Committee does not rule on content, but may propose means by which community resolution of a content dispute can be facilitated. That seems pretty clear. But are there any conduct issues in play? In other words, is it a mix of conduct and content? Jusdafax 23:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that there is much doubt that there has been tendentious editing and edit warring, which are conduct issues. Like nearly all ArbCom cases in this decade, it involves both content issues and conduct issues. (In the past, the ArbCom also dealt with cases that did not involve content, such as the banning of trolls and flamers, who are now dealt with by "community consensus" or not dealt with by "community consensus".) So the question is whether the ArbCom can impose a remedy for a combined content and conduct issue without identifying specific conduct issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

If there is no finding of fact stating that there have been conduct issues, then there is no conduct issue as far as ArbCom is concerned, and the only other type of issue is a content dispute (which ArbCom is not allowed to address). There have to be findings of fact to support any remedy that is enacted. In this case, there are no findings of fact at all (except for the usual boilerplate identifying the locus of the dispute). Richwales has hit the nail on the head, although some of the statements by Malke, Collect and TFD have touched on this: without one or more findings of fact that a specific editor has engaged in misconduct, there can be no remedy imposed against that editor. ArbCom can approve a motion to close a case with discretionary sanctions, article probation, etc. ... but those remedies affect all Misplaced Pages editors, including those who have never looked at the article before. And several ArbCom members have indicated that such a remedy would be inadequate. They know there's a conduct issue here.

The problem is that the ArbCom members who haven't yet voted on such findings of fact and proposed remedies are unwilling, or unable, to devote the time and effort necessary to identify the worst offenders and the extent of their misconduct — and also unwilling to rely on the judgment of such ArbCom members as AGK and Fuchs, in identifying the worst offenders and the remedies that should be imposed. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

So I haven't been following this case very closely, but the idea that the committee can impose punishments (however phrased) without supporting findings of fact shocked me back into commenting. As a former arbitrator with a reputation (and not undeservedly so) for favoring sanctions in virtually every circumstance, I might be expected to be the one person cheering on the committee's proposed Kill them all, for the Lord will know his own approach. I do not. Jclemens (talk) 05:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and thank you for your statement. Without specific findings of fact it appears this remedy of six month topic bans sets a new and dangerous precedent, which then could be applied to other editors in future cases. In effect, it does create new policy regarding sanctions, and although a cursory look at the TMP article appears to show various editors indulging in questionable practices over a period of years, I would rather see this case thrown out than see ArbCom, Misplaced Pages's court of last appeal, become a place where bans of any kind are handed down without clearly stated itemized reasons for doing so. Yes, a fully itemized listing would be a lot of work and subject to further quibbling, but if elected members of this body are unwilling to take the time to do that and intend to implement the policy, then in my view a new Wiki-wide conversation is in order. Jusdafax 08:03, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Jclemens here (and I was partially involved). The net effect of this will be for editors to keep away from controversial articles because they may just get swept up in the net. Its also a license for sock & meat farms - swamp an article, get everyone blocked then set another group of editors to get your way. I think what happened here is that the drafting arbitrator got involved in trying to mediate the situation and then fell victim to that failure by in effect withdrawing. Findings of fact would lead to variable bans if previous cases are anything to go by. The strength of wikipedia is that it is a complex adaptive system in which the only modifying sanction is individual behaviour. We are in danger of loosing that. ----Snowded 08:21, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but there is a problem in this case there are issues relating to group behavior. This article is not unique in that aspect, but the worst case I've seen. At present the "March against Monsanto" article sees similar group dynamics, but is generally less problematic than this article in part due to the broader scope of this article.

Generally speaking, more strict enforcement of content policies, particularly in regard to sourcing and the preference for academic sources. Then might it be possible to indirectly redress the problem wherein editors with different political stances are unable to compromise. I they can't resort to illegitimate sourcing arguments, then the major avenue of recourse used to obstruct the building of the article on the basis of introducing scholarly commentary would be obviated.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 10:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

You must be talking about the argument that two or three reliable sources outweigh 20+ reliable sources. That's definitely an illegitimate sourcing argument. Arguments regarding the amount of weight to be assigned to each source due to context, such as the source's own reliance on unreliable sources, a lower experience level of authorship (a Connecticut law student, for example, compared to a Florida law professor who makes regular appearances on CNN to provide expert commentary on the law and politics), or the possibility of bias, are completely legitimate per WP:CONTEXT. Attempting to delegitimize such a perfectly legitimate argument is a hallmark of the disastrous editing atmosphere on that article. It's one of the principal reasons why the substantial progress we've made under moderation has proceeded at such a glacially slow pace, and only as a result of enormously patient and time-consuming efforts by those who truly wish to bring about that progress. When seven editors are working on an article and just one dissenting "vote" from just one proven tendentious editor is enabled by admins to block any progress at all, it's virtually hopeless. When ArbCom refuses to remove that tendentious editor, but instead furloughs them all for six months without any findings of fact that would support such a move — with a fresh battalion of partisans either waiting in the wings, or already stepping out on stage — it's completely hopeless. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 11:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

It can be done. I remember the Ayn Rand one where I got three months ban from the article (but not from talk) for two sets of 2rr not even 3rr, others got a full year etc. That article was as contentious, had group behaviour etc. A key difference is the drafting arbitrator did not engage, but went through every editor with findings of fact. It is a part of Arbcom's duty and one which has been neglected here. To Ubikwit, I think part of a solution can be a couple of monitoring admins to validate sources but that will always be difficult. Witness P&W's comments above and previous forum shopping. It has to be an examination of individual behaviour and it has to be done by Arbcom, that is what they are there for. Personally I think a couple of them should simply call a halt to this, then go through the evidence again and come up with a proper set of findings. Otherwise if this solution continues I think it needs to be a far wider community debate. It represents a major shift in policy ----Snowded 12:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this proposed decision is both a major change of policy and beyond the remit of ArbCom's authority. Rather than this "collective punishment" approach, the effort should be made to go through the evidencs and identify the improper individual conduct and propose appropriate sanctions.

Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.

I think this approach should be avoided. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:22, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Chilling effect

I concur with the comment that the proposed decision would provide a chilling effect on resolution of any other highly contentious articles having a combination of content issues and conduct issues. If an article content Request for Comments is attempted to bring in outside editors to resolve the content dispute, new editors, who see that the article is probably headed for arbitration anyway, may be intimidated from editing out of concern that they, as well as the original edit warriors, will be topic-banned without consideration of the conduct details. The issue is not only the fate of the article, which might benefit from a six-month ban on the "usual suspects", but other highly contentious articles, where the precedent set by this article would intimidate new editors from trying to fix an article. The proposed remedy might be what this article needs, but it isn't what, for instance, March Against Monsanto needs, a warning to avoid highly contentious articles. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC) I would propose WP:TNT, to blow up the article and start over, but on the Internet, no one knows that you are being sarcastic. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Majority

The Proposed decision page says: "For this case, there are 11 active arbitrators, not counting 2 who are inactive, so 6 support or oppose votes are a majority" However, Carcharoth has since been listed as inactive and Silk Tork has recused, so there are in practice 9 active arbitrators. If I have understood the rules correctly, that will mean that 5 votes are enough for majority, and that the motion (which currently has 5 votes in favour) is set to pass regardless of the vote of New York Brad. Or, have I misunderstood? Regards, Iselilja (talk) 08:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

That's correct, however the Committee requested that NYB have time to vote and make any comments before the motion is enacted. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

That's correct. I've continued to review the best way of achieving a positive, or at least reasonably acceptable, outcome in this complex and difficult case, and I unexpectedly had far less online time than I expected to have over this past weekend. I certainly expect to provide my input in the next 24 hours. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Just so I am not misunderstood, it wasn't my intention to complain about time use here, sorry if it looked that way. Just me being curious. Must have been a really tiresome case for the arbitrators. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 22:20, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

You're entitled to complain about the time it's taken. Pretty much every single arbitrator ever elected since 2005 or so ran on a platform of reducing the delays in resolving cases. Certainly, perhaps especially, including myself. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Now that Carcharoth is active on the case (and opposing the motion), it appears to me that Brad has ended up with a casting vote. Poor guy. EdChem (talk) 00:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Not *that* bad

I haven't been involved in this at all, but just a comment as an observer (for what little is worth) that the resolution-by-motion currently hanging in the balance isn't that bad.

• Of course, a scalpel-rather-than-sword approach to resolve specific behavioural issues in a dispute brought to Arbcom is preferable. But if the committee has tried and failed to find a better way to proceed than removing a whole bunch of people from the scene, so be it. We all want Arbcom to reasonably effectively resolve conduct issues that the community cannot handle, but there comes a point where detailed forensics carries diminishing returns on the time of everyone involved
• The motion bends over backwards to explain that the parties being temporarily topic banned are not necessarily "guilty". But some voting arbitrators are concerned that nevertheless topic banning is a "sanction" and should never be imposed without proven "guilt". I think we need to step away from that latter thinking. While part of the wiki philosophy is that a crowd of people operating by community consensus within the 5 principles (and whatever plethora of policies, rules, etc that seems to imply) can build an encyclopedia, we all know sometimes that fails. There is no shame in admitting that in some isolated circumstances. While no one would want to make it at all a regular thing, in particularly tricky areas saying "Folks, we know you've been doing your best, but time to take a break and let a new crew try. Even though we're sure many of you could do a good job, let's just try with a new team" is not tragic. There is a risk that doing this too often becomes gameable ("my reserves are bigger than the enemies' reserves, so let's force an impasse following which our B team can clean up") but if it is implemented once in a while by Arbcom at its wits' end, that risk is not severe.

So - by all means, if some members of Arbcom think that with a bit more time they can clean up this mess with some careful scalpel work, by all means. But if that's not working, there is no shame in trying what the motion proposes. Martinp (talk) 11:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Martinp (and, for that matter, Newyorkbrad) and I may probably need to "agree to disagree" regarding the desirability or consequences of passing this motion. NYB has, of course, been on ArbCom for many years, and I do think his experience and insights are worthy of considerable deference. However, for better or worse, we have adopted a strong precedent over the years to the effect that topic bans are a sanction, carrying a significant stigma, and that they are to be used only in cases involving intentional (or stubbornly clueless) disruptive behaviour. We may very possibly need to fine-tune this view — especially if we're ever going to decide, as a community, to expand ArbCom's jurisdiction to include intractable content disputes not involving any clear instances of misconduct. However, if we (the community) are going to do such a thing, I believe we need to discuss the idea (with all its implications) thoroughly first — I don't think ArbCom should break new ground by adopting this sort of practice on its own, not even for a case that appears to be solvable in no other way. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 16:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Rich, my fear is that this form of thinking occasionally (fortunately not frequently) leaves an excluded middle. Here (taking the PD at face value, I haven't dug into the details) there is a content dispute complicated by poor overall group conduct - even if the number of "clear instances of misconduct" is relative low. (I suspect any of us who has brought up kids close in age to each other has experienced this in real life.) As to the stigma of topic bans, we should be pragmatic. If a "nonsanction, nonstigma topic ban" is helpful, we should not shy away from trying it, explicitly disclaiming the stigma -- as the bradspeak preamble and several arb supporting votes clearly assert. We routinely tweak policy to add nuance, and if after x years of not needing a "no guilt implied temporary topic ban" we now discover it is helpful, so be it. Martinp (talk) 17:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

The case should be dismissed

@Richwales, you make an excellent point. A community discussion regarding that should take place first. In the meantime, this case should be dismissed. It has been on-going for the editors orignally named for 6 months now. We are volunteer editors, not whipping posts. KillerChihuaha did not present any real evidence at the beginning of the case to even justify taking the case. The lack of evidence is what caused the delay in resolving the case.The moderated discussion should be seen as the ArbCom solution to this case. The discussion made progress. It's time to let AE sort things from now on. Malke 2010 (talk) 18:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Dismissal (keeping the findings already made) is the best option at this point. The only better option (setting a framework in place so that the editors (including / especially the ones that have been making an effort can more this forward, hinted at in my "60,000 view above) ) is a complex one which arbcom has not even nibbled at and so isn't going to happen. (The only other big idea floated (page bans for everybody) shows a lack of understanding of what the challenge is, would do an immense amount of harm and zero good.) Especially since the case was sent off on a false tangent from the very beginning, and it has never recovered from that. North8000 (talk) 12:36, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Limiting to substantial contributors

If one looks at total edits to articles and talk pages related to the "Tea Party movement" (excluding the arbcom pages and moderated discussion) one finds the following to be the most "involved" at this point in time: top two are Xenophrenic and ThinkEnemies at this point. Next are Ubikwit and Phoenix & Winslow. North8000 lags substantially behind. All the rest are well below that level. I suggest that the committee look first at findings and evidence about those five, and not get bogged down in minutiae. I note that saying "a sanction is not a sanction" is not going to impress many people at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Then it needs a new case to do that, IMHO. In the meantime, unlock the article and let AE sort things. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that ThinkEnemies flushed out the OWNer of Tea Party protests not because he wanted to be martyr, but because somebody had to do it. This put a bullseye on his ass, which was an unfortunate side-effect for which he's well aware. ThinkEnemies only wants to spend time improving articles instead of wasting countless hours banging his head against the wall trying to convince tendentious editors to quit destroying this project. They're beyond repair, but their stomping grounds can be reclaimed by the community with some help from the powers that be. We've pretty much been reduced to begging for assistance. Moving on, it should also be noted the most productive period of time at Talk:Tea Party movement/Moderated discussion occurred soon after ThinkEnemies arrived. Could be causation, could be correlation, but can't be denied. †TE†Talk 23:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

@TE — You broke up the logjam. For that, I thank you.

@Collect, you're using raw numbers —— which isn't usually the best thing to do when examining human behavior. One of the ArbCom members (AGK I think) noticed how Goethean didn't have many edits on the article and related pages, but always managed to pop in with a revert at just the right moment during an editwar. He stopped editing completely when ArbCom took the case. But he's one of the principal reasons why ArbCom took the case.

@Malke, I don't believe we need a new case. We need ArbCom to examine the evidence carefully and topic ban the worst offenders, which (I'll spell it out this time) do not include you. In other words, the case we have needs to be salvaged and steered in the right direction. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

@P&W: I was not making any judgements about anyone's behaviour - only saying that if ArbCom starts with those with the most edits, and then look for evidence, that this is a better practice than looking at 1500+ editors and trying to sort them all out one by one. Collect (talk) 00:36, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion for a special talk subpage for banned editors

I propose a special talk subpage where the 14 editors who have been banned would be invited to post once with suggestions for what issues they see as needing attention and what should be done to improve the article. They could also respond to questions from non-banned editors if asked. I think this would be helpful to the next crop of editors and might relieve some frustration. Any incivility would result in a ban on the special subpage too.--agr (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

It seems like the motion to ban the 14 editors has failed, as it ended 5-5 in votes. The plan now appears to be to make a new attempt to hand out more traditional topic bans based on finding of faults for a selective number of the editors. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 21:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

New party: User:Snowded

For the record, I have directed the case clerks to add Snowded (talk · contribs) as a party to this case. AGK 13:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I question the wisdom of adding any parties when it is clear that removing parties is likely to be far more efficacious in arriving at findings and decisions. Collect (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I have added the party because I am preparing to present a finding relating to his edits, so I am not sure how his presence will hinder the presenting of other findings. AGK 17:26, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Its OK by me, but I won't be able to put up any response until Tuesday ----Snowded 18:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Welcome aboard, Snowed. The gyroscope and compass got washed overboard in stormy waters, so this voyage may be bound for destinations unbeknownst, to the likes of us.

Shiver me timbers.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:50, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

AGK, some clarification please. You've just added me to the involved parties but I cannot make a statement as the evidence period is closed, but you say you are going to make a finding? I got involved early on in the main as there seemed to be tag team editing and vote counting (the latter in the main with P&W followed by forum shopping). It became obvious early on that no progress was going to be made without Arbcom or other intervention and I had little or no time free so I withdrew. I kept the page under watch and have intervened a couple of times since when I had a few moments. I have argued since that the earlier resolution (now defeated) would be against WIkipedia policy and most recently commented another P&W example of assuming consensus on the basis of majority voting (creation of the 'Views' page). Now that is all from memory in a snatched early morning moment before heading off for a couple of days break. I was going to put something on the evidence page but that is closed. ----Snowded 05:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about AGK, but when Snowded declared his involvement in moderated discussion it was really helpful to many of us. I for one wouldn't want to disregard his contributions. Give credit where credit is due, I say. †TE†Talk 05:45, 18 August 2013 (UTC)z

This case has become politicized. Malke 2010 (talk) 06:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

15) Snowded has been disparaging toward (, , , ) and combative with () other editors of the Tea Party movement article.

When I have a decent Internet connection and some time tomorrow I will. You might just have a case on the first but if you are correct on the others no one in their right mind will,engage on a controversial article again. I'll work through them tomorrow ----Snowded 19:15, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

@Snowded: Thank you for your response. Since you were online this evening, I will look for your response to my proposed finding if I am online tomorrow. If you have not responded by that point, I will formally propose the finding (and the resulting remedy), although any comments you make after it is formally proposed will of course still be considered.

When formulating your response, please remember that the important thing to rebut in the finding is the underlying message ("that you have been disparaging towards and combative with other editors"), rather than the specific diffs given. In other words, the finding alleges that your behaviour in general has been of the nature described, rather than that you have simply misconducted yourself in the five different instances given. Regards, AGK 23:50, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I was on line briefly AGK, and handle a few pressing matters between grabbing some food and dealing with two conference calls. I will get more time today (after morning calls, a train to London and various meetings) which is when I plan to go through it but it won't be when you get up its more likely to be late pm. I assume you want a considered response given that all other involved editors had several weeks on the evidence pages. You have also just made the issue far more problematic, both for me and in terms of policy. I can respond to the specific diffs i.e. evidence, but you now say you want me to comment more generally. Findings I thought had to be evidence based, and I naively thought that meant I should respond to evidence presented. ----Snowded 04:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

AGK, All of those edits are recent and therefore have nothing to do with the events that lead to KillerChihuahua filing her report six months ago. Furthermore in order to establish a "pattern" you would need to re-open the process by posting to the evidence page and discussing on the workshop page. We could then read through all Snowded's edits, consider the context in which they were made, and have everyone comment on them to see if they detect a pattern that hinders progress in the article. It makes no sense that you have allowed yourself six months to consider a case and now provide an editor and everyone else with just hours to respond to your latest posting. If you think that any of Snowded's individual postings warrant sanctions (which they appear not to), then the correct procedure is administrative action.

My advice is to take the evidence that has already been presented and the workshop discussions and come to a decision. The nuclear option suggestion delayed resolution of this case by ten days, and took up considerable time of all involved - eleven administrators and fourteen other editors and led to one administrator recusing himself.

Re-opening the case to admit and discuss new evidence will create similar delays. And there can be no end of it either, if every editor who joins the discussion at Talk:Tea Party movement becomes a person of interest to this case.

TFD (talk) 16:05, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Setting aside the substance of your post, what strikes me is the degree of proactiveness with which you participate here as contrasted to your reticence to participate in the Moderated discussion. I post this as a general concern, because in general, I have had no problems interacting with you and Snowed, and bear you no ill will.

What you've referred to--in somewhat dramatic fashion--as the "nuclear" option can also be seen as simply to have offered a cooling off period, a chance for the disputants to step back and observe how others handled the material for six months.

It was an expedient measure that could have spread the shame and pain about in a relatively fair manner, except for the fact that egos--and what not--got in the way.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 16:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I became "proactive" on this case after being added as an involved party three weeks ago. I was not active on the moderated discussion because I had made absolutely no edits to either the talk page or the main page in the months before the discussion was set up and had very little involvement in the past (2 edits in November 2012, 2 edits in August 2012, etc., and a total of three edits to the main page over the entire history of the article). TFD (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, but in a sense, that just confirms my point and begs the question: If you had an interest in the article and the discussions, why did you refrain from engaging in the Moderated discussion.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Because I had no interest in the article and the discussions, which is why I was not involved in them. TFD (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Response

OK its late at night and its been a long day but I promised a response so here goes. I will firstly deal with the 'evidence' and then comment on process. I suspect my main sin is challenging the previous resolution as beyond Arbcom's remit and I also suspect there is a OK they didn't like that now lets show them element in the way this is now being handled. If that is disparaging then so be it. So to the diffs in the same sequence:

1. This to P&W I find bewildering. FIrstly, P&W has for the whole of this period being making the claim that he is an Obama supporter and just wants to be neutral. I don't think anyone believes him and he has been challenged in more vigorous tones than mine on at least two articles. Here he had just nailed his colours to the past with a series of statements about the Tea Party which were out and out praise for that organisation. To comment on that is entirely reasonable. Secondly for the last few days P&W has been claiming that ARbcom will simply ban three editors who oppose him, to suggest he might also be a candidate is normal commentary.
2. P&W again on source counting. Anyone familiar with the history of this case will know that P&W counts votes and sources regardless of quality. My comment says it is nonsense to take this line and that he should take it to a notice board if he disagrees. The irony reference is because he already had and been rejected but was still ignoring it. Simply counting votes is mob rule and I make no apology for saying so, its clearly against Misplaced Pages policy.
3. P&W says "I am right" in response to a reasoned argument I respond with an ironic intro sentence and a request for information about the sources. I really can't see anything disparaging there .
4. To Collect who says that my previous statement is "Complete bosh and twaddle" and I make a jocular response. This one really is nonsense, especially as I later argued that you had wrongly swept up Collect in the lets just stop everyone editing for a bit solution. Collect and I have had multiple interactions of the years and while I disagree with him I respect his ability to follow process here. A bit of background research would have shown that.
5. to Arthur who is an admin. It is hardly combative to suggest a degree of evasion when the evidence supports it. He should as I said 'know better'. There is nothing offensive or agressive in that statement

More generally I would make the following points:

1. It is an abuse of process to simply tag another editor in and give them less than 48hours to respond outside the normal arbitration workflow. You should reopen the case if you want to do this. Also some of us are not undergraduates on vacation, we have business to run, software to develop and clients to visit. Try and respect that
2. There is nothing in any of the statements for which any admin or ANI would sanction me or any other editor. If it is not sanctionable then it is dubious to make an assertion such as the one you propose.
3. I could find you hundreds of examples of far more robust language from senior editors on a range of articles not just the controversial ones. In making the statements you have you seem to want to discourage editors from engaging. It takes a degree of resilience to work on the controversial articles and with that comes some direct speaking. I can't see anything in your evidence which justifies the conclusions you have drawn.
4. Finally you ask me to respond generally on my editing overall on this article. Given the time allowed and given the lack of coherence in the evidence you have presented I am not going to do that. If any of the above is disparaging or combative then I am guilty over multiple articles as are oh so many other editors. I originally joined the community as part of a research project into complex adaptive systems (of which Misplaced Pages is an example). I think its secret is that it allows vigorous debate, but editors not allow abuse. Its control mechanism if behaviour and through admin sanction. Nothing in the evidence presented is abusive or would stand up to an ANI test for sanctions and I suspect you know that. ----Snowded 20:27, 20 August 2013 (UTC) ----Snowded 20:27, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for responding so promptly. AGK 11:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It was a pleasure, but as expected it didn't make a blind bit of difference. Not impressed AGK I thought better of you ----Snowded 14:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Fully recuse

I had considered earlier recusing on the whole case since I had got involved in the moderated discussion, which did not achieve its principle aims. That, in a sense, was a gamble that didn't pay off, and got me too involved in the mechanics of both the article, and the dispute and debates that are the nuts and bolts of this case. As I was the principle drafter of the case I wondered how appropriate it would be to recuse, but as the case has now been taken over I can fully recuse from the whole case, not just the motion. SilkTork 00:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

You have been speaking too lowly of the results of your moderated discussion. Though not perfect, it was the biggest success that the article has seen in at least three years. North8000 (talk) 12:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

That statement strikes me as representative of the degree of disconnect between some of the editors and the reality of the article and its editing environment. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 14:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it reflects what was accomplished during the effort. North8000 (talk) 02:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I notice arbs are now voting on the first proposal, where Silk Tork has already cast some votes, so they should be stroken then. (I didn't follow the moderated discussion page, but looking at the article itself, it looks neater now to me). Regards, Iselilja (talk) 16:42, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Three requests for ArbCom

1. ARBS, Please retract any statements that ARE NOT SUPPORTED by actual evidence in the form of diffs. Please no more generalized statements disparaging an editor without actual evidence. If you are claiming an editor has "misbehaviours" or edit-wars, is incivil, or engages in battle, then do please show the exact diffs to support these claims. Otherwise you are casting aspersions on living people.

2. Also, please note that when an editor posts evidence on the evidence page to counter claims made about him or her, please do acknowledge that you've examined their evidence and please show why you feel it either does or doesn't overcome your evidence.

3. Please re-open the Evidence phase so that editors may post evidence to counter your new claims. Especially since you've now added another editor, Snowded, and he has stated that he can't post anything in his defence until Tuesday.

Thank you, Malke 2010 (talk) 04:04, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

We are proceeding with the case, and I have prepared findings relating to a number of other disputants. As you will remember, I did propose a blanket motion that would have compelled everyone to take a break from the article without singling swathes of editors out in findings of fact; since that has been rejected, I will now offer motions that evaluate everyone's conduct in the normal manner. I think you will find, once they are proposed, that those findings contain evidence that is representative of the editors' conduct, and that the "actual evidence" you have asked for will be provided.

I do not plan to support re-opening the evidence phase of this case, nor – to my knowledge – do any of the other arbitrators. Thank you for your comments, AGK 16:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

The case should be dismissed and a new one brought. If you are proceeding, then the evidence phase for all editors should be reopened. Too much time has elapsed. The evidence that the originally named editors presented won't help them with any subsequent editing and discussion they participated in after the case was brought. And not allowing newly named editors to present evidence goes against the fundamentals of an ArbCom case. The integrity of the process must be respected. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

As of the opening of the case Malke was not even involved on the article for I believe 2 years except for a few days before the case. So the comments about Malke being "most active editor" by that finding are factually wrong unless you include the irrelevant main editing which ended about 2 1/2 years ago. This case was misdirected form the start, and now, adding to that, the landscape has fully changes in the approx 1/2 year since the case was openened. Time to just close it. North8000 (talk) 18:10, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

On the first point, the original narrative findings (of the form "User X has made Y edits over Z months") have been withdrawn, and deleted from the proposed decision page. On the second point, I do not believe we will be abandoning the case, but rather we will be voting on a final decision in the next week. The final decision will relate mainly to the parties' conduct over the past half a year or so (although it will take notice of earlier conduct).

Relating to Malke2010's point about the "integrity of the process", our only aim is to resolve the dispute – and although editors will have the opportunity to respond to findings and remedies proposed against them, we do not make any provision for "due process" or other such judicial concepts. We are a problem-solving body, not a court; and this dispute still needs solved. Regards to you both, AGK 19:29, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

But your vote against me still contains the phrase, "most active editor" as well as a false claim about my block history. I was never blocked for any behaviours on TPm and all blocks were in 2010. And NW has said that my editing is primarily "American politics," which is not true at all. That was true in 2009/2010, but not since then. And if you look at the edit counter here it is more accurate but still not quite truly representative of my activities. Edits I made in 2011 and 2012 were largely to legal articles like Padilla v. Kentucky and others such as Ridley Park, Pennsylvania. Edits in 2013, with the exception of the Arbcase pages and moderated discussion, have been entirely to a few legal articles with the balance of edits to medical/virus articles and article creation.

Also, using edits made in the last 6 months seems to imply that there was insufficient evidence at the start of the case. For editors named at the beginning, including myself, we were then editing under the strain of the ArbCom case. Having to edit the moderated discussion was not made easy given some disruption caused there by some editors. And having to present evidence in one's defence, and endure the comments and occasional baiting from editors on the ArbCom talk pages was not easy either. That should be taken into consideration. This has been an unfair and unreasonably long process. The case has changed character with the newly added editors. And while we don't have 'due process,' those new editors should still be given adequate time to present their evidence. While everyone understands ArbCom is not a court of law, it is the place of last resort on Misplaced Pages. The committee members are seen as the most trusted arbitrators of disputes on the project. Trust is reposed in all of you and the expectation is that the process will have integrity and a respect for the editors before it. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:39, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

There IS no current dispute. And there were (and will be) only the routine disputes present in all Misplaced Pages articles representing a real-world contest. The main thing different here from other articles is that somebody decided to light a bonfire outside of the article. North8000 (talk) 22:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Further ongoings for the considertion of the Committee

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Phoenix_and_Winslow_reported_by_User:Ubikwit_.28Result:_.29
• Agenda_of_the_Tea_Party_movement
• Talk:Tea_Party_movement#Proposed_merge_with_Agenda_of_the_Tea_Party_movement

--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 16:47, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

To what extent do the disputes at Agenda of the Tea Party movement cross over with the disputes at Tea Party movement? I have noticed that many of the actors in this dispute also contribute to that article, but in order to limit the amount of time demanded by this case I have been largely ignoring the Agenda article. AGK 19:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

That's an astute question, and though I am generally of a mind that it would behoove me not to add to the already immense workload this case has wrought, there are factors that have over-ridden those concerns an compelled me to bring this to your attention as well.

First, please refer to Silk Tork's response in the relevant section on his Talk page. Note that he indicates that the subarticle was not created with consensus under the purview of the Moderated discussion. That in and of itself may represent a bit of gamesmanship of the system.

Other than that, for the sake of brevity, I'll just point out that the topic matter relates to a recurrent subject that has been the focus of sourcing related disputes.

Thank you.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 19:39, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

How many places are you intending to post essentially your same arguments? I note you ANEW post about 2 week old diffs -- where you seem to be more interested in forumshopping and harassment than in achieving actual polite consensus - sigh. BTW, the arbs are perfectly capable of reading the moderated discussion without a trot. Collect (talk) 20:29, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

This is another illustration of the battleground mentality that Ubikwit has displayed more and more over the past few months. Originally I thought this was an editor I could work with, even though we disagree on many issues. I was mistaken. Ubikwit is already under one topic ban and an interaction ban, and he has a recent history of multiple blocks for editwarring and a violation of the interaction ban, as his User Talk page clearly shows.

A thorough review of that page and his block log is instructive. Others have criticized Ubikwit for posting at great length when he should be summarizing, and for behaving in a manner as though he believes that he is superior to other editors. This behavior continues to be displayed recently at the TPm moderated discussion, indicating that he does not respond to criticism, or even blocks, by improving his behavior. He just waits the block out. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:08, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

IMHO Ubikwit has done the most battling at TPM over the recent months, often by trying to use wiki-legal methods to go after people. North8000 (talk) 14:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Re: New Findings of Fact on Proposed Decision page

Recently, we saw a Kill them all, for the Lord will know his own motion that failed to obtain a majority (5-5 vote). The new proposed Findings of Fact and Remedies on the Proposed Decision page may represent an attempt to achieve the same result by other means. And the result I'm talking about is sanctions against individual editors without sufficient evidence.

Regarding the FOF against me, I take issue with the FOF drafted by NW concerning my behavior:

• I have not attempted to exclude any reliable source, and I would like to see a diff that actually supports such a claim. I've only tried to determine the amount of WP:WEIGHT to be assigned to each source. Thus I've criticized some reliable sources, particularly where they're being used to declare an academic consensus when there are six times as many reliable sources that say the opposite. But I'd like to see a diff proving that I actually attempted to exclude one.

• It is alleged that I've exhibited battleground behavior on a "related" article — but the diff provided is from the Barack Obama biography. Claiming that it's a related article is a real stretch. If the Obama biography is related to the Tea Party movement, then every article about post-2008 U.S. politics is related to the Tea Party movement. And I've already voluntarily stopped editing the Obama article.

• Yes, I was briefly topic banned by SilkTork. Take a good look at the underlying reason why I was briefly topic banned. I'm sure you'll agree that the brief topic ban was more than sufficient to protect the Misplaced Pages project.

Evidence against Collect, Malke, Arthur and North is similarly very weak, and generally very stale. But in seeking topic bans against them, they're being treated the same as Xenophrenic, Goethean, Snowded and Ubikwit, whose exhibitions of battleground mentality, editwarring and tendentiousness are far more recent and pervasive. It is in the best interests of Misplaced Pages for experienced editors who are showing behavioral problems to improve their behavior. And for this reason, the Arbitration Committee should recognize such improvements in behavior. Put another way, it is very clear that it is no longer necessary to protect the Misplaced Pages project against Malke, Arthur and North. And it never was necessary to to protect the project against Collect.

Also, there's no indication that the Committee is examining the conclusive Wikistalking evidence against WLRoss. By stalking me to the Talk:Tea Party movement page, WLRoss submitted himself to the jurisdiction of this proceeding. The evidence is overwhelming. I've posted more than sufficient diffs on the Evidence page, and on sandbox pages linked to the Evidence page, against both Xenophrenic and WLRoss. Reviewing the evidence against WLRoss does not substantially add to the workload of this case because Wikistalking quickly becomes very obvious. WLRoss and Apostle12 should have been sanctioned by the community two years ago, after Franklin child prostitution ring allegations was stubbed for their massive BLP violations, and I regret not pushing the issue at WP:ANI at that time. Two years later, Apostle12 produced the "Race and politics" ArbCom proceeding, and WLRoss is Wikistalking me. Ignoring misconduct by WLRoss for a second time will only result in further abuse by WLRoss and further proceedings at ArbCom, as Apostle12 demonstrated. Save yourselves some work and take action against him now. It has become necessary to protect the Misplaced Pages project against WLRoss.

On the other hand, the recent proposed FOFs and Remedies against Xenophrenic, Goethean, Snowded and Ubikwit are very appropriate. And I note that in the proposed FOF against Snowded, four of the five evidence diffs selected by AGK showed Snowded's misconduct in interacting with me. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:08, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

WTF

I am accused of being "dismissive" of a person who used a source to make a claim directly antithetical to what the source said. If that is being "dismissive" than the Wiki-world is about as far off reality as is possible. There is no way in hell that anyone can provide "proof" that they are not "dismissive" when such edits are made, and I suspect the arbitrator who proposed that claim is errant, off-base, and is not dealing with reality on this case. I would point out that I have made exceedingly few edits on the topic other than in the moderated discussion which ought to follow the policy about "mediated discussions" which is that they, in general, not used in ArbCom cases in the first place. If a person who participates in such a mediation, doing his damndest to reach a consensus through seeking compromise, is then going to be called on the carpet by ArbCom, then the whole concept of "mediation" on Misplaced Pages is in the toilet well and truly. Note the very first mediator on the list at Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Committee. Note also ytthat no one has suggested that I even belong in this case -- though AGK did not issue comparable "findings" about TFD who is in pretty much the same boat as I. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC) (still on Wikistrike - and not willing to try "disproving" vague claims made on non-evidence in the first place -- will someone show an ounce of sense here please? ) BTW, not a single one of the diffs cited as a reason for a six month topic ban is remotely near the level of evidence normally required by ArbCom to do a damn thing in any other case in the history of that committee. . If pointing this is "dismissive" of ArbCom, so be it. (The two parts of this post were posted at the same time and were not separated in time) Collect (talk) 16:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Findings of fact without evidence/punishments are disproportional

Findings of Fact

• One of Malke 2010's primary focuses on Misplaced Pages has been modern American politics.

That is not at all accurate. I have edited over 1400 pages on Misplaced Pages. Of those fewer than 10 involve American politics. I have made over 12000 edits to Misplaced Pages. Of those edits fewer than 1000 are to political articles. See lists of some of the articles I've edited below.

• In this topic area, he has treated Misplaced Pages as a battleground (see KillerChihuahua's evidence). (My rebuttal)

I've explained, several times now, that the comment I made to Killer Chihuahua came after I saw KC and North using my name as a battle weapon. I can't imagine any editor who would want to be put in that situation. And it appeared to me, as has been noted by Silk Tork, that she was taking sides. She was engaged with North8000 in her capacity as an Administrator and she seemed to be defending Goethean's comment. Which, btw, everybody seems to have completely skipped over the fact that I ignored Goethean's comment.

I did apologize for any offense. And even KC has said in her evidence that given the situation, the toxic nature of the page, she didn't see sanctions against me.

And my talk page comments were about creating a subarticle, which the moderated discussion created several of since that was the solution to improving the article––trim it down and then move off the areas of contention. I was not battling and those comments clearly show I was civil and fully explained what I meant. And I did not respond to what appears to be an incivil comment by Goethean.

• and has a history of acting uncivilly (Viriditas' evidence) (my rebuttal)

Virditas weaves diffs into his own narrative. He claims I'm an advocate for the tea party movement because I created Jenny Beth Martin. He purports to know my motivations and apparently my daily schedule since he claims my editing dropped off after 2010 because the mid-term elections were over. If I edit to the election cycle, why wasn't I active for the far more important U.S. presidential elections in 2012? There's no credibility to his evidence. He also believes there's a conspiracy on Misplaced Pages driven by the Wikiproject Conservatism members. At the moment he's currently blocked for three months.

I went through a highly public mentorship for which there is no Misplaced Pages policy for such a thing. It quickly became a wall of shame. In fact, I had editors email me using that very phrase. During it, I was abused by editors who wanted to win content disputes, launch personal attacks, and hound and mock me. And it's never allowed to be forgotten.

To this day, if I do something someone doesn't like, there is always at least one editor who will come along and say Malke was in a mentorship. I think we should contact Moonriddengirl. Yet, there is NO other editor on Misplaced Pages who has been made to go through that. NONE. And likely it would never happen to a male editor. And certainly not an admin of either sex.

• Malke 2010 has sought to disinclude sources authored by academics on the grounds that their research is flawed (see generally Archive 22).

Well, specifically that discussion was an objection to Xenophrenic's claim that the Skocpol book was stating that the Tea Party is nativist/anti-immigration. I got the book from my local library and read it straight through. It does not say that. Later, I used the Skocpol book in my suggested edit on the moderated discussion. The edit was meant for the lead paragraph of a new subarticle being created. Obviously, I'm not blocking a "scholarly source."

• Proposed remedy is indef topic ban

I am being accused of "misbehaviours" without evidence.

My punishment is the most harsh of all those being proposed, yet I have not at all contributed to the environment on that page that lead to this case. I was not in the inciting incident that brought KillerChihuahua to the page to moderate the dispute. I wasn't even around and had not been in a year. And please note, I had stopped being a regular contributor to the talk page. I made comments once a year, briefly, always on the same thing which was, the usual complaints about the article.

But I'm to have an indef ban. IMHO, there seems to be a great deal more going on here than I'm being told. My one comment to KillerChihuahua on the talk page back in February cannot possibly be the source of this animosity from AGK and NW. And btw, I was supportive of KC throughout this whole thing. I thought that desysop bit was inappropriate. And when an editor made a sexist and entirely inappropriate comment about her, I defended her.

• Malke has done plenty that has been just fine, especially in the moderated discussion, but there is also plenty of evidence of misbehavior.

No diffs of "misbehaviour" are offered. I kept all the rules, I did not make incivil comments, I even got a barnstar for cooperating. I contributed as best I could on the moderated discussion. I often went along with the majority, and on many occasions I tried to keep things collegial. And I allowed for points of view on the most contentious topic on that article which is the 'grassroots/astroturf in the lede argument.'

I kept all the rules of that page. I stayed with the moderated discussion. I did not edit the subarticles. And when I was, past tense, active on the Tea Party movement back in 2010, I was the one who initiated the mediation cabal. .

In addition, SilkTork came to me through email to ask about a situation on the moderated discussion and I assisted him in that. Why would he come to an editor who is "incivil" and engages in "battle?" I did help and the problem was evenutally resolved. I will send an email to some of the Arbs, and if you email me back I will forward the emails to you so that you can see, I am not deserving of this.

• Editing history

And again, and to put this to rest once and for all, I had 512 edits to the Tea Party movement article in 2010. Only a few were reverts, mostly for vandalism. I had NO edits to the article in 2011, I had NO edits to the article in 2012. I had 5 edits to the article in 2013 AFTER the ArbCase was brought. That's it. And I am NOT primarily interested in "American Politics."

Here is a sampling of my editing history after 2010:

• Article creation

Malke 2010 (talk) 18:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments

• Malke, I have removed my incidental comment that you are the "most active" editor. However, the new finding of fact amply substantiates the notion that you have misconducted yourself, so I have nothing else to say at this point in time. You are not understanding that the committee is not concerned about the number of edits you have made, but rather about the actions specified in the new finding of fact that was proposed this month. AGK 23:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you, AGK. From the beginning, my edit count was referred to. The blocks are old and were never because of editing on the Tea Party movement. And when I look at behaviours of others, I am baffled that I am receiving the most punishment. I have not caused trouble, and even Silk Tork said that there wasn't evidence to support sanctions. I made one comment to KillerChihuahua. The punishment is out of proportion and the findings of fact seem especially disparaging of me. Considering that I did participate in the moderated discussion and did well there, I don't understand why I am being singled out for such harsh punishment. It does not add up. Malke 2010 (talk) 23:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, evidence of incivility is from 4 and 3 years ago, and again, it was not on the Tea Party movement. So please explain why old evidence is being used here that is not relevant. It seems to be that there is far more going on here than I am being told. I don't see findings of fact that bring up old behaviours from 3 and 4 years ago on any of the others. For example, there's no mention of Ubikwit's record whatsoever, yet that is very recent behaviour. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

closed comments

What a mess

This thread is not helpful to the committee, so I have collapsed it. Do not re-open or edit it. AGK 23:07, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee members are encouraged to review both of these collapsed threads to determine the true source of incivility and bickering at Talk:Tea Party movement. Both are very revealing in that regard. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:17, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

FoF 12: Ubikwit

It states...

Ubikwit has ignored sound arguments about article content.

And then a diff is presented (currently no. 36). Following that diff takes you to a statement Ubikwit made in response to a post by TuckerResearch. My reading of Tuckers post shows he is comparing what is said in the article to the wording in three sources cited and concludes a sentence should be removed due to the sources not backing it up.

Ubikwit's responce is a clear agreement with TuckerResearch. Explicitly stating he believes it an example "where the text of the article doesn't reflect what the cited references say".

I don't understand how Ubikwit agreeing with TuckerResearch acts as an example of him ignoring sound arguments. What am I missing here? 204.101.237.139 (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for raising this issue and bringing it to everyone's attention.

That statement was one of about 4-5 instances where I had found, upon examining the cited sources and comparing the content of the statements in the sources with the text in the article claiming to be based on the sources that there was no correspondence between the two.

Here is another example from the same archived discussion, made several days later:

Yet another example where the text of the article doesn't reflect what the cited references say.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 08:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• @AGK Excuse me for being a little slow to undertake this effort, but I am busier than most people I know. The more I examine your FOF pertaining to me, the more I have come to question the reasoning that serves as the basis for some of the "findings".

First, let me just state in advance that conduct-based claim for the above-described finding has been negated, so I would appreciate you expeditious removal of it. I wouldn't take issue with a valid finding of fact pertaining to my editing conduct, but this is purely errant, and I do hope you will revise it forthwith.

Secondly, I'm going to examine just one more of your findings pertaining to me--because that is all that I have the time to do at the moment--and it isn't pretty. You have reversed some of your earlier statements pertaining to Arzel, who just so happens to have reverted some of my edits related to the Constitution with no good reason, as I have clearly indicated on the relevant case pages, yet there is absolutely no FOF on Arzel. On the other hand, in your second diff of the FOF pertaining to me, you include a diff that includes a comment by Arzel in which he is condescending and denigrates academic sources from the social sciences and humanities (comparing them disfavorably to math) so that he can prioritize sources from the mass media. The threaded conversation on the Talk "Some Sources" page is here.

In light of the above-described somewhat extraordinary circumstances (you seem to be defending an editor that denigrates academic sources while accusing me of violating WP:AGF for defending academic sources?), I'm rather perplexed at the moment. Perhaps you'd care to provide clarification of the rationale upon which you arrived at said FOF.

This is the comment made by Arzel, in full, followed by my response, in full

Peer review for opinion is little more than grammer checking. Peer review for mathmatical equations and hard facts is much more rigorous. I done quite a bit of peer reivew and it entails checking math and making sure that what they are saying makes sense, not whether it is correct factaully. If anything books like these are the worst reliable of all. Each chapter has only a few eyes checking it for factual mistakes. Newspapers, at least, have thousands of eyes double checking the final product for factual statements. Arzel (talk) 14:38, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Arzel, perhaps you should stick to math, because you seem to not know much about social sciences research. You are deliberately attempting to denigrate academic sources (from outside your field, apparently) by dismissing them as mere "opinion". The information contained in the academic sources is of a higher order than that in new media. Your condescending attitude toward the social sciences is perhaps somewhat problematic.Ubikwit 　連絡 見学/迷惑 15:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Off-topic FOF

So, of the 4 diffs and items noted with the FOF regarding me three were not even at the article, and the only one that was at the article is that I leaned on two folks for TE editing without spending the 12 hours to prove the case. (as I later did) Another was a friendly communication and expression of confidence in them (regarding an unrelated article) with someone who was supposedly acting as an admin on this while telling me not to post on their talk page. And the premise for excluding the person with the largest role in this mess was that this is only about the article (and involvement in such), not the ensuing mess. Why not just use a dart board to make up FOF's? North8000 (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The finding of fact is not "off-topic" because your edits cited in it all relate to the Tea Party movement dispute. AGK 10:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

No, the diff about the talk page was about review of a completely different and unrelated article. And my other point was that the FOF regarding "(un)involvement" in essence decided that the only only venue that mattered was the article itself. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

North8000, please stop making personal attacks against other editors. — goethean 17:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Please stop mis-labelling things as "personal attacks" which aren't North8000 (talk) 17:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

@Snowded

I generally respect you, and suggest you also do not belong here. However mu "complete bosh and twaddle" was a res[pnse to your jocular post, not that you replied with a jocular post. The post which I called "bosh" was:

If there was a scholarly article that made the claim that George Gnarph was a space alien then there would almost certainly be one which said the opposite. We reflect the balance of sources so its more than legitimate to ask for on that refutes a properly sourced statement if it is to be rejected.

Which, I suggest, is indeed "bosh." Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Archive_23 . I trust Snowded will acknowledge his error here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

question for Arbs

Can the desysop bit be removed from KillerChihuahua's FOF? This was never a real issue. There was no ivote. No one wanted it. The ANI complaint was not about her. I'm not familiar with what the handbook says on this, but it seems entirely unnecessary. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)