Talk:Rupert Sheldrake - Misplaced Pages

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Comment by Tumbleman

Wiki policy is pretty clear on this issue - when dealing with subject matter that may be considered fringe both sides of the story must be presented without bias and with a neutral POV. There is absolutely no reason for wiki editors to determine the value one way or another to any hypothesis in the TALK section. Whether his hypothesis is BS or not, it's not our place to say. Since Sheldrake's ideas have made a notable controversy for over the past 20 years, it is reasonable that this controversy is presented without bias and with notable references that summarize the environment.The Tumbleman 23:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumbleman (talk • contribs)

Sheldrake is a notable figure in science for the notable controversy he has caused over the years with numerous articles, conferences, debates and even television specials and documentaries detailing on the matter and this goes back over 30 years. TEDx is the most recent historical example and caused a degree of controversy for TED, prompting TED’s Chris Anderson to later retract many of the claims against Sheldrake’s talk by TED Scientific Advisory Board, stating publicly “Some of his questions in the talk I found genuinely interesting. And I do think there’s a place on TED to challenge the orthodox. Maybe I’m expecting too much for this forum, but I was hoping scientists who don’t buy his ideas could indicate why they find them so implausible.” As this is notable in the history of sheldrake's career, I will be resubmitting shortly within the neutrality guidelines of wikipedia. The Tumbleman 23:11, 31 August 2013 (UTC)§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumbleman (talk • contribs)

The Tumbleman 23:14, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

article is plagued with bias either for or against both ways. just as many proponents of sheldrake as their are those with negative bias here. we can do better guys. the whole point is to be neutral and provide a complete history of notable individuals that detail notable events in their careers.The Tumbleman 23:14, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

FYI, in your initial comment on this page you had added to an obsolete section which referred to an older version of the article. It was bad timing that during the archiving process you had edited other sections, so I copied those. Appending to sections that are 3+ years old is confusing since there's no correlation with the current article. Vzaak (talk) 23:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Vzaak - are these talk archives available anywhere? odd timing indeed. Does this suggest that this is now the only current talk on the article? The Tumbleman 01:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumbleman (talk • contribs)

Thanks Vzaak!The Tumbleman 00:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumbleman (talk • contribs)

This is now article's talk page. There's a "search archives" field above, and the numbers next to it correspond to pages. The last archived page is 4. Something's wrong with your signing situation. I guess you removed the link to your user page in your signature, causing SineBot to think you're not signing. Vzaak (talk) 01:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

"Yes I noticed this too and will look into this problem. thank you."The Tumbleman 16:22, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, please add new comments below previous ones. And please read the guidelines at the top of this page. Vzaak (talk) 01:36, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

yup The Tumbleman 16:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Please note that on wikipedia WP:NPOV does not imply treating different viewpoints as equal, or creating a false balance. We put fringe views into perspective with respect to the mainstream, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not written in the point of view of a purely scientific mainstream context, however nor is this a peer reviewed journal. That is not the editing voice of Misplaced Pages. This page is not about Sheldrake's hypothesis, it's about his biography of which his hypothesis has played quite a significant role. Wiki policy is clear that subject matter must be *notable*. Fringe policy by Wiki is also clear - it is important wikipedia not give attention to *insignificant* works. I think you assume 'fringe' means something it does not and your voice sounds a little biased here. Sheldrake has a career of responding to his critics and publicly requests them to review his evidence and reasoning in conference, public debate, written works, and interviews. There have been television specials on him in this regard as well as subject of journalists in various publications. He has shared round table discussions with Daniel Dennet, Freeman Dyson, Stephen Jay Gould to name a few. If he is fringe, he is certainly a scientist of notable controversy. We are here to present this neutrally. We are not here to say his theory is fringe or not fringe - we are only here to report if someone notable has referred to it that way and in light of a notable controversy when relevant. The Tumbleman 01:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumbleman (talk • contribs)

Please keep in mind that you already shot yourself in the foot with the "bias" claim in your very first message on this page. You thought the article intro contained a "horribly biased definition" of Sheldrake's work, but it was his own words which were quoted. Please take that false positive to heart. Also remember that such accusations directed at individuals (as opposed to the article) are forbidden per WP:NPA (and remember WP:OUCH).

Nope - not shooting myself in the foot by any means and still stand beside my claims of bias - I have not yet really begun to edit this page yet and do believe still that this page written in bias - and my first edit may still stand because the source that was referenced was a biased article and if that article used that sheldrake quote in context or out of context and I am researching the source still. At face value it did look like I was mistaken however and apologized. I do not believe wiki has a 'shoot self in foot' policy (edit - i see now that you are referring to the OUCH policy) and I have accused no one directly that I am aware of.The Tumbleman 16:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The above comment is in response to my comment. My response is below. Vzaak (talk) 19:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Your comments as a whole indicate that you need to become familiar with WP:FRINGE and the policies at the top of this talk page. They should answer most or all of the issues you've raised. In the past there have been problems with users not reading these policies, so please actually do so. Vzaak (talk) 02:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Yup, have read them and Yup, am familiar with WP:FRINGE. If you believe one of my comments is out of step with WP:FRINGE then please copy and paste the comment in question and advise to that specifically, thank you. I develop collective editing systems and am quite familiar with objective protocols, voices of neutrality, unbiased journalistic standards, etc etc so your concerns are quite misguided here. I am agnostic as to Sheldrake's theories - I am here to make sure his bio contains notable events that are significant to his biography as per wiki policy. The Tumbleman 16:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Claiming to be familiar with policy and actually demonstrating familiarity are two completely different things. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

True - so let's all work on keeping all of us in check.The Tumbleman 18:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Tumbleman, don't split up other people's comments like that. The signature distinguishes who said what, and it's confusing when it is not present. Also, could you please stop commenting in all italics? It's harder to read and there's no need to distinguish yourself like that. And, again, please fix your signature as it violates WP:SIGLINK policy. A signature link aids in marking the end of a comment, among other reasons for it.

I have fixed signature issues in preferences. I am not sure what you mean when you say 'split up other people's comments'. I comment directly underneath each comment with a editor signature.

Don't do what you just did again here, in the comment above. Don't insert your response between the paragraphs of someone's comment. There needs to be a signature in order to distinguish the end of a comment and to whom it belongs, otherwise mass confusion ensues. This is basic wiki convention and common sense. Moreover, there's no signature in your own comment directly above. Vzaak (talk) 23:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I understand not to comment in between paragraphs - I am just not seeing the reference to where I "just did again here, in the comment above." if I see a comment and then after that comment i see a user signature, I leave my comment with my user signature like you are doing as well. If I interrupted a paragraph somewhere, it was probably an accident. I was having problems in preferences earlier that I was not aware of so again, apologize if there has been sloppiness. The Tumbleman (talk) 00:35, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Your comment "Nope - not shooting..." splits my earlier comment, leaving my paragraph "Please keep in mind that..." signature-less. Your comment "I have fixed signature issues..." splits up my earlier comment "User:Tumbleman, don't split up other people's comments...", leaving that paragraph signature-less. Vzaak (talk) 00:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

There's also no signature in your indented comment below. If you indent like that, you need to attach a signature, otherwise people don't know who made the comment (short of investigating diffs). Vzaak (talk) 23:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

You removed "mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" because "it does not define the author's hypothesis but rather an interpretation from a negative science writer". I don't know where that comes from, since the source quoted Sheldrake. Reverting your edit, I said, "No, that is a properly attributed quote from Sheldrake. Verify using google.". That should have been the end, but instead you comment on this talk page asserting that the quote is a "horribly biased definition of authors own work". I respond by giving you a direct google link for the quote. Now you say that your removal of the quote "may still stand".

Help us to understand your perspective. How on Earth could your removal still stand? Why did you think "mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" was "horribly biased"? Vzaak (talk) 19:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me clarify and I apologize if any of my form here has been sloppy. Correct, I did originally remove ""mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" because, academically speaking, it is not how Sheldrake presents his hypothesis and the quote was linked to a scientific american article of high bias against the hypothesis article as reference, not one of Sheldrakes own publications as one would normally expect in a formal definition. However I was mistaken in regards to the quote not being attributed to Sheldrake directly, and I responded ( if you pull up the discussion we had) with "Apologies, I withdraw my argument".

What *may* be in question regarding the Scientific American article is regarding that quote being used out of context by Scientific American to frame how Sheldrake's hypothesis is defined academically or formally by Sheldrake. This reads as bias to me from the Scientific American journalist himself and he may be taken out of context to show that bias. If this is the case, and that quote is not a formal definition of Sheldrake's theory, then I will remove it and request for a formal definition, cited from his own works on the matter, replace it. I am still researching this as well as to other issues effecting this page. As for now, your edit stands as well as all edits on this page until I complete my task and finish diligence here.

In terms of my comment that you mention regarding bias in the over all article - it was in regards to the whole page of talk now in previous archives, it was my reaction to both sides of the argument - and yes I still do see evidence of bias on this page and will edit and clean when I have completed my tasks. Hope this clears things up. Thank you. The Tumbleman (talk) 22:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

First "mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" was a "horribly biased definition of authors own work". Then you pull back, "I withdraw my critique". Then you say "my first edit may still stand". Now we have "Apologies, I withdraw my argument" juxtaposed in the same comment with "academically speaking, it is not how Sheldrake presents his hypothesis".

Sheldrake's own words are "horribly biased" against him and "not how Sheldrake presents his hypothesis". I give up.

I would still like to know why you think (or thought) "mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" was "horribly biased" -- not the genetic argument of where it came from (a fallacy), but what about the quote itself, the quote alone, is (or was in your mind) "horribly biased".

P.S. In the edit in which your above comment was created, you have an indented paragraph lacking a signature. Vzaak (talk) 03:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Vzaak - getting very unclear to me why this is still a source of confusion for you. I already addressed this once above. I was mistaken about attribution and therefore withdrew my claim based on that error since I assumed you were giving attribution to the journalist and not sheldrake, therefore making it 'horribly biased'. I was mistaken there. My claim of potential bias however, which I am still researching, is about the possible bias of the context in which Sheldrake's quote was used by Scientific American. "mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" does not appear at face value to sound like a formal definition of Sheldrake's hypothesis, but rather a loose and informal *explanation* of what his hypothesis suggests. Sheldrake is a formally trained scientist and one would expect a formal definition of the subject matter of his own hypothesis. A formal definition is not an informal explanation and an informal explanation is not notable unless the context it was given in was notable to the subject matter. The two are not the same. An informal explanation could be used by an author in a specific context (for example if the author is speaking to children he may explain something in simple to understand terms or metaphors). Since the Scientific American article is written with a negative bias regarding Sheldrake, he may be framing Sheldrake's words against him to make his hypothesis read more pseudoscientific which is the opinion of the journalist. Therefore, if this is the case, and i research the reference in question and I determine it to be taken out of context or not how Sheldrake formally defines his hypothesis, I will remove it once again with this argument specifically because it would lean towards a bias on the page and in violation of WP: NPOV. Until then, there is no reason for you to keep addressing this to me because until I do this, your edit stands. The Tumbleman (talk) 04:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

TEDx talk

Looking for WP:RS. Google News gives nothing on this. User:Barney the barney barney pointed to the Independent, which is the only news source I know about. The article lacks detail, and it may not be possible to treat the topic appropriately without doing original research.

Previous TEDx talks were removed because they violated the TEDx guidelines on pseudoscience, including TEDxCharlotte, TEDxValencia, and TEDxWestHollywood. The latter even had their TEDx license revoked per the Independent article. It's not at all surprising that Sheldrake's TEDxWhitechapel talk was also removed, given the TEDx guidelines on science which existed before Sheldrake's talk and was explicitly sent to TEDxWhiteChapel prior to the talk. I'm not trying to do WP:OR, just saying that there's no indication that TED has treated Sheldrake specially in this regard. The online response from those who were riled up with a "censorship" framing of the issue doesn't translate to notability for WP, of course. WP:RS have to cover it. Vzaak (talk) 18:45, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Google News only gives 30 days of reference and the controversy was 6 months ago so it would make sense that is why it would not pull up much. A simple search in Google proper may assist you within correct date frame will provide you with adequate sourcing. The Tumbleman (talk) 05:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

If you click on the google link, you'll see 1984, 1983, 2007, etc. Also, earlier I asked you to add new comments below previous ones. This is at least the third time you've added new above old. Vzaak (talk) 06:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I think it is worth briefly mentioning. It is part of a pattern of behaviour (see what happened with the British Association talk . Also, Sheldrake can be relied upon as a reliable source for what Sheldrake thinks. Similarly, sources such as PZ Myers's and Jerry Coyne's blogs can be relied upon to present viewpoints of sceptics/scientific community. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Not sure how 1 scientist and 1 clearly biased blogger would constitute view points that can be relied upon as the voice of the skeptic or scientific community, that seems like a bit of a reach and potentially in violation of Notability. In this article here on Huffington Post 10 scientists lend their support to sheldrake. For the same reason one could not claim that because 10 scientists give him public support as evidence the scientific community supports him, you cannot use simply 1 blogger and 1 scientist to say the same to the contrary. You have no references that would justify giving them that voice. that would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Let's try to stay neutral here guys, these kind of arguments are what makes it appear to me to be some bias amongst the editors here and that there may be ideological reasons for them editing this page.The Tumbleman (talk) 05:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

But as far as I can tell there is just one short news article that has ever been written about it. Can this really suffice for notability per WP standards? A TEDx affiliate produced a talk which violated the TED policy on science, something that had happened many times before. I suspect news organizations didn't pick it up because it's not very newsworthy. The blog activity surrounding it seems not far from gossip to me. I think a brief description of the facts of what happened is appropriate, but I'm not so sure WP should be reporting the spin that blogs have put on it. Vzaak (talk) 22:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

TED's own publication reported on the controversy - and TED obviously is notable. As the TED controversy was also reported on by various other publications, it makes the TED controversy notable by wiki standards. Chris Anderson's own comments on the talk after the controversy also notable. I am still doing diligence on the TEDX issue and have not yet presented my formal edit.The Tumbleman (talk) 22:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

TED's own publication is a primary source. A primary source can be used for facts, but hardly anything else. That's why I said "the facts of what happened". WP policy is, "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself" (WP:PRIMARY). Vzaak (talk) 00:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

TED's primary source in this regard is the Youtube Channel for TEDx (because that is where it is sourced that video was been removed) or at best TED.com (which is the hosting brand for TED channel) - Not TED's blog . TED.blog is a notable news outlet that covers events happening with TED events. It is reasonable the promote on the controversy as TED.BLOG reported on the controversy and use TED.BLOG as the source for TED's position editorially. The Tumbleman (talk) 00:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment, but if you're suggesting that TED's blog is a secondary source, it's not. The TED blog is also not a news outlet as far as WP is concerned, WP:RS.

It is. I believe You are mistaken here. I don't see how blog.ted would not be considered a secondary news source for TED events, nor do I see how how it's not a news outlet is covered in WP:RS - that seems a little extreme and quite a broad interpretation. so if you have a specific interpretation of this you need to be a little more clear. I hope you can make the distinction between TED as a forum for live events that are recorded, and TED as a publisher of news regarding it's own events. Clearly blog.TED is a reliable source to reference in terms of TED events. Your original suggestion was that TED's own reporting on a controversy would not qualify a wiki editor from using that source to define the controversy. I hope you are not confusing comments on the blog.ted site with what I am suggesting. blog.ted published a few articles on the controversy and many of the articles or comments there are directly from TED director Chris Anderson directly on TED's position. This is indeed relevant because TED officially retracted many of the claims it gave towards removing the talk. Many other publishers also picked up on this controversy. The controversy is notable to the bio of Sheldrake since Sheldrake has a long history with such controversy and this is the most recent historical example, so it's relevant to his bio. To suggest that a wiki editor can not use that as a notable reference for the controversy does not seem reasonable to me and I see no violation of wiki rules that you mention.The Tumbleman (talk) 02:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Is this a joke? This is the third time you have split my comment, immediately following my third explanation and my second request to stop. This is common sense. Don't split comments. People need to know who said what.

You are confusing a news organization -- as in an organization with professional journalists and an editorial staff that hold themselves to journalistic standards -- with a blog about events of a random organization. The former is (typically) a reliable secondary source. The latter is not a news organization and not a secondary source.

I did not say that "TED's own reporting on a controversy would not qualify a wiki editor from using that source". Indeed before you wrote those words I added material to the article using the TED blog as a source. I think you missed my point about the limitations WP places on primary sources (WP:PRIMARY).

(P.S. Put the Sheldrake page on your Watchlist; you'll be able to see changes to the article and the talk page at the same time.) Vzaak (talk) 03:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I am quite clear on what constitutes a news organization and so is WP. There is nothing in the WP that would disqualify blog.TED from qualifying as a news organization relative to that channel, considering TED is a massive online publisher. Your issue revolved, and correct me if I am mistaken, that reporting the event as a controversy and using blog.ted as a primary source to reference the event as a controversy was against WP and the only source you could find was the independent which also referenced the event as a controversy, which you then questioned as notable. Your exact words "Can this really suffice for notability per WP standards?". To me your words clearly show you are seeking to limit the notability of the event as a controversy or even referencing it as one. Perhaps you can share your thoughts here regarding this specifically? This does not seem like a complex issue so not sure why you have any issue with simply providing a NPOV on the matter as an unbiased editor. Any organization that reports news in any channel or interest is, in principle, a news organization relative to that channel. WP allows us guidelines to determine the veracity of what any organization reports and gives editors leeway under those guidelines, including (WP:PRIMARY). Again, I have not made my edits yet to this page so I guess we will be visiting this issue once I do.

Secondly, on this page you wish to show how the removal of the sheldrake talk was akin to issues regarding Tedx events such as TEDxCharlotte, TEDxValencia, and TEDxWestHollywood. While those events may have faced similar issues related to TED TOS with event organizers, Sheldrake's video was called out specifically by TED on the TED site which later retracted the claims that Sheldrake's talk was removed for gross errors and pseudoscience. Clearly you can see the distinction there.

As to the splitting of comments, apologies please do not assume it is a joke or take it personal. wiki TALK is naturally a very sloppy format in principle to handle these discussions and I am sure myself, like most wiki editors, have good intentions and I will make sure not to make this mistake again.The Tumbleman (talk) 04:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Vzaak, my concern is that you use WP a little to strictly to enforce what appears to me to be a loose opinion or interpretation, when in fact WP is clear when it is meant as a guide or heuristic instead of a policy for deletion. From (WP:PRIMARY) "Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages." As long as we keep a firm commitment to maintain a NPOV, these issues should be easy to resolve since these are quite rational distinctions. I look forward to working with you one this page over time to maintain this standard. The Tumbleman (talk) 05:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

This is getting close to personal attacks again. Focus on article content and arguments, don't comment on people. WP:NPA. No more vacuous accusations of bias directed toward people. Remember that I declined to take that shot despite the easy target you presented in your mistaken first comment on this talk page.

You missed that I said "I think a brief description of the facts of what happened is appropriate" in the same comment as "Can this really suffice for notability per WP standards?".

The TED blog is clearly not a news organization and clearly not a secondary source. I'm not going to argue about this. Take it up with WP:RSN, they'll tell you the same thing. You really need to read WP policies and understand them. WP:RS WP:V WP:NOR and more. Vzaak (talk) 06:41, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It is completely appropriate to mention the voice of an editor if that voice is influencing the actual content of the page. For example if an editor has a voice which suggests bias, it is not a personal attack to mention the concern of bias to that editor in TALK. I am merely commenting on your language and your evaluations and how you are using WP to make those evaluations and broad sweeping judgements which so far have been based on what appears to be very loose interpretations of WP. I stand by my comment and in no way is this a violation of WP:NPA. I have concerns of an ideological bias here on this and I have every right as a wiki editor to address that within reason. Please try to maintain a NPOV here. The Tumbleman (talk) 07:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I may very well take it up with WP:RSN but appeal to an authority as a basis for your argument here is a logical fallacy. If you cannot explain how TED's own organization that reports on TED's news and events would not qualify as a news organization relative to that channel or blur the lines between primary and secondary sources within the WP, then it would be fair for you to no longer comment in the TALK section about this issue. The Tumbleman (talk) 07:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Comment on content, not on contributors. Warned. Vzaak (talk) 07:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Comment was on "content" specifically and I have addressed my concerns with you on your personal page especially in relationship to WP:AOHA. Please let's be civil and genuine in accordance with WP. If you want to resolve this with me on my personal page please feel free to message me there. The Tumbleman (talk) 07:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Note you can't use "<ref>" here since this page has no "{{reflist}}", i.e. the link you gave doesn't work. Use instead. (There's also an extra slash in your URL.) Vzaak (talk) 01:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

My full apologies, I am in between projects now and writing quickly. Have been away from wiki editing for awhile so please be patient with my while I re orientate. Here is the reference in mention The Tumbleman (talk) 02:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't confused about where the TED blog was; I already cited it myself. I was just letting you know about "ref". (FYI that link is still wrong.) Vzaak (talk) 04:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

http://blog.ted.com//

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