Talk:Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati

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Youngest patent holder

At least two sources that I checked, attribute the record claims to the child's father:

"According to his father, Bhati is the youngest person on wheelchair to get a patent in the world and he is also the youngest patent holder in India." (Times of India)
"He became the youngest patent holder in India and the youngest disabled patent holder of the world in March last year when he was awarded patent for developing the 6-player circular chess, claimed his father Sarovar Singh." (The Hindu)

For your inspection NeilN and Abecedare (talk) Sirs: The Times of India clearly mentioned the subject as youngest patent holder of India in the following link, when the subject recieved prestigious ability award and that too with standing ovation. The exact words of " The Times of India" were "However, it was nine-year-old Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati who got the loudest applause in the auditorium which was choc-a-bloc as he belted lines from K'naan's 'Wavin' Flag'. Hridayeshwar, who was diagnosed with Duchenne muscular dystrophy, a degenerative disorder affecting the use of his arms and legs, is the youngest patent holder in India as the inventor of circular chess."Italic text Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC) http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-03-10/chennai/37597886_1_duchenne-muscular-dystrophy-eminence-award Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

For your inspection NeilN and Abecedare (talk) Sirs: Reference 3 also clearly mentions the subject as Youngest Patent holder Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't the wikipedia article do so too, or do we have independent verification of these records (ideally articles that are not profiles of the subject)? Abecedare (talk) 22:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I went back in the archive (thanks for making me do that, BTW) and checked all the numerous (and redundant) sources given and you're right, all English sources make it clear it's his father's claim. At very least we should add the caveat with an eye to removing the claim in the future if independent verification can't be found. --NeilN 22:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

NeilN Sir, did you forgot to see reference 3, before giving the statement,I went back in the archive (thanks for making me do that, BTW) and checked all the numerous (and redundant) sources given and you're right, all English sources make it clear it's his father's claim. Bold one is objectionable! Because reference 3 is already in the reliable reference list. Moreover you also agreed later on that this link one is a decent one. There might be many such resources which are out rightly turned down though they were reliable.Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 05:48, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

The IP India site finds the application for the 6 person chess (application 3107/DEL/2011), but lists its status as "Request For Examination not filed", ie it appears that the application has not been examined or granted. It did not find an application for the 12 or the 60 person version.

Note: I am not proposing that we use the IP India as a reference per se, since it will be regarded as a primary source. But we we can use the information to judge the credibility of other sources used in the article, and attribute the claims to the cited sources instead of making them in "wikipedia's voice". Abecedare (talk) 22:48, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence Patent Granted for 2, 3, 4, 6 Players Circular Chess (6 players): Open this link of Controller General of Patents (Government of India) and Put application number as 238319 and then Submit to know the Status/Evidence. http://ipindiaservices.gov.in/designapplicationstatus/designstatus.aspx 122.161.48.199 (talk) 04:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence Patent Granted for 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12 Players Circular Chess (12 players): Open this link of Controller General of Patents (Government of India) and Put application number as 252967 and then Submit to know the Status/Evidence. http://ipindiaservices.gov.in/designapplicationstatus/designstatus.aspx 122.161.48.199 (talk) 04:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence Patent Granted for 2, 3, 4, 5 , 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 38, 39, 40, 42, 44, 45, 46, 48, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 60 players Circular Chess (60 players): Open this link of Controller General of Patents (Government of India) and Put application number as 252966 and then Submit to know the Status/Evidence. http://ipindiaservices.gov.in/designapplicationstatus/designstatus.aspx 122.161.48.199 (talk) 04:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I've tweaked the wording accordingly. --NeilN 04:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the links. I now understand the source of confusion: I was searching the patent database (which apparently haven't been granted yet), but the applications were for

Abecedare, I'm not sure I'm following ... Do you have conclusions re the three patents reported as earned/received in the article? Also do you have conclusion re reliability of "youngest patent holder in India" claim? Your background seems to position you excellently for resolving these disputes. Could you let know what conclusions or recommendations? Thank you. ("youngest patent holder in India"; patents received for 6-player, 12-player, 60-player; there was a previous claim re "world's youngest disabled patent holder" was removed from the article long ago and I'm assuming in spite of remaining IP contention the claim is completely unjustifiable; "prodigy" claim was the source for a bogus DRN filed by the IP even after extensive reasoning attempted with them, the result of which was a steady stream of slanderous allegations of "degredation", "humiliation", "abuse" of father & disabled son. It would be great if you could extend your substantial experience w/ India-related articles to settle these issues once and for all since there seems to be a never-ending barrage of IP effort to COI-push all these issues in any way possible. The pattern of slanderous allegations combined with "Dear Honorable Sirs" and "I've only always been perfectly respectful to all the Highest Upon Highest Respectable Honorable Misplaced Pages Editors, except for the fact that you guys are guilty of degrading people and humiliating and making fun of and abusing a disabled kid" is a bit hard to take, so if you could bring your experience to bear to bring about closure on these complaints of "injustice by Misplaced Pages editors against a disabled kid" it would be most appreciated.) Sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 07:42, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Abecedare (talk) Sir, if you require i will send all the 3 design patents for subject to Misplaced Pages under your guidance. Those patents are also having designs attached to them. Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 05:33, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: World’s youngest patent holder on Wheel Chair http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/jaipur-boy-builds-multi-player-chessboard/1/182580.html Evidence: Fathers name is Sarower Singh Bhati and he is National award winner of Mathematics http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/jaipur-boy-builds-multi-player-chessboard/1/182580.html Evidences: Youngest Patent holder of India http://www.abilityfoundation.org/cka_2013.html http://www.feminiya.com/hats-off-to-these-achievers-who-proved-their-mettle/ Rajiv Gandhi National University of Law, Punjab Intellectus Intelligit A FORTNIGHTLY E- NEWS LETTER ON INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS AND TECHNOLOGY LAWS http://www.rgnul.ac.in/Intellectus%20Intellegectum/Abhimanyu%20SIngh.htm More evidences will be Submitted Soon122.161.48.199 (talk) 04:52, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidences 4: Youngest Patent holder of India + Awarded

Achievers with disability honoured

http://www.chennaipatrika.com/post.aspx?id=2e618b27-5ec4-43dd-b9ff-3b2c09a0be19 122.161.48.199 (talk) 04:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence 5 : Youngest Patent holder India's contribution to World's Science Oxford Engineering College

Page 57 http://oxfordec.edu.in/documents/world_sci.pdf 122.161.48.199 (talk) 05:08, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Youngest Patent holder of India http://www.deccanherald.com/content/238473/9-yr-old-develops-circular.html 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Why invented 6 players Circular Chess http://www.bhaskar.com/article/MAG-play-chess-3176718.html 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: English Chess Forums http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4199 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: World’s youngest patent holder on Wheel Chair + Genius Rook who changed Chess Circles http://epaper.mailtoday.in/showstory.aspx?queryed=9&querypage=18&boxid=3522234&parentid=66228&eddate=Apr++1+2012+12%3A00AM&issuedate=NaNundefinedundefined 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Chess Sensation + World’s youngest patent holder on Wheel Chair + Genius http://epaper.mailtoday.in/showstory.aspx?queryed=9&querypage=3&boxid=51019828&parentid=66239&eddate=Apr++1+2012+12%3A00AM&issuedate=NaNundefinedundefined 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Video: Invents 6 players Chess http://www.myindiancolors.com/archives/37945 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: National News: Video: Invented 6 players Chess http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDGgURPTvfs 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati being appreciated by NRI World wide and Quoted him as IMAGE OF INDIA on April 1st 2012 @ It is very important to mention that last three digits in link ie 220 will go on changing due to update but best way to find this status again is 1/4/2012 Date in the following link

http://www.nri-worldwide.com/index.cgi?images=220 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati being appreciated by NRI World wide on 30th March 2012 8.20pm @ It is very important to mention that last three digits in link ie 435 will go on changing due to update but best way to find this status again is 30/3/2012 Date and time 8.20 pm @ Following link

http://www.nri-worldwide.com/index.cgi?cat=8&o=435 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

RED FM SUPER STAR 93.5 Quoted Hridayeshwar as Super Star + Evidence Youngest patent holder also @ Following link

http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/128427/Hridayeshwar_at_93.5_RE 122.161.48.199 (talk) 07:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Youngest Patent holder on Wheel Chair

By Legal Studies Institute Universal Institute of legal studies:

http://www.unilawinstitute.com/news_apr2.asp 122.161.48.199 (talk) 09:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence: Youngest Patent holder: Date 29th March 2012 (Following link)

Subject in General knowledge books of India (Following link)

http://www.goyalsgktimes.com/General-Knowledge-Current-Events-list.aspx?scid=2 122.161.48.199 (talk) 09:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Value of claim

Of what value is it for an encyclopedic article to read: "according to Bhati's father, is the youngest patent-holder in India."? (Is the father a recognized source for that kind of statistic? The father also claims his son to be "prodigy". Do we include in the article that opinion too?) Verifiability not hearsay, please! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with Ihardlythinkso (talk Of what value is it for an encyclopedic article to read: "according to Bhati's father, is the youngest patent-holder in India."? That too when we have reliable and verifiable resources for same. Already agreed by NeilN for this link one I think no need and use of bringing father in between Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 03:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with Ihardlythinkso (talk to 100% extent as he said "(Is the father a recognized source for that kind of statistic? The father also claims his son to be "prodigy". Do we include in the article that opinion too?) Verifiability not hearsay, please!" But the subject is a Child prodigy according to lot of reliable resources that too in their headlines. See references 2, references 6, and one reference not in your list http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-in-school/wheelchairbound-chess-prodigy-invents-new-variant/article5132145.ece and many other references are there. What is debatable about subject is not being Child prodigy but, " Why the subject is child prodigy? Further it is also debatable, where should be the subject put in the list of Child prodigy? But as far as Child prodigy is concerned, a lot has been discussed in reliable media resources that too in their own words without bringing father in between. Moreover the subject exists due to the primarily reason of " Reliable media resources". The answer to Why Subject Exists will the answer to the questions Why subject is Child prodigy and Why Subject is youngest patent holder? Why subject is youngest disabled patent holder of the World? Everything revolves around only one factor " Reliable Media Resources". Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 05:14, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I've looked through the references the IP provided above and none of them strike me as ones doing proper fact-checking instead of just repeating claims made elsewhere. Other thoughts? --NeilN 13:00, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Without substantiation the claim "youngest patentholder in India" s/b removed else it is just hearsay. The credibility of that claim was already put into question with a tandem claim (since removed) of "youngest disabled/wheelchaired patentholder in the world". (How would that have been substantiated exactly? E.g. is there a "box" on patent applications to check stating "disabled applicant", or not!? I doubt that. Not only would there need to be that kind of data, but from every country issuing patents as well, and last, all those countries' data would have to be collectively scanned, to be able to make such a claim. The claim was bogus on its face.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Check any reliable reference in your list and that proves he is disabled.Ihardlythinkso (talk) That too the subject is on Wheel Chair, right from 6 years. Yes agreed with you that it is very difficult to analyse the claim but your words "The claim was bogus on its face" was not desirable. Just tell me where to send the Disability evidences for the subject, covering all aspects of disability ie Suffering from 65% disability that too permanent and progressive due to a fatal disease Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy.Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 04:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

So you agree the sources the IP presented above are not reliable enough (in this matter) to be used? --NeilN 14:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The only seemingly decent source I think is this one. --NeilN 14:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

@NeilN, one way or another I still feel the text "according to Bhati's father, is the youngest patent-holder in India" has got to go since is pure hearsay/unencyclopedic. Attributing that claim to the Deccan Herald instead of to the father would correct the matter. How reliable that source is to make the claim in the first place is another matter entirely of course. (Did the source do the legwork necessary to make the claim by accessing databank of Indian patents/patent holders? If so one would think they'd have the moxie to report in the article who the previous youngest patent holder was whose position was usurped because of Hridayeshwar's patent, since if they conducted that research they'd have had that info already at their fingertips. Reporting same in the article would have allowed them to write a more interesting and credible report, and I don't think that is expecting too much from a reliable source. There's nothing even hinting at the basis for said claim. So all of that gives me pause re reliability of the Decca source. In fact the article seems IMO to have spin as that of a human interest story more than anything else, not one of vetted research. But if it is used, attributing the Decca rather than putting in WP's voice would be preferable (do you agree?). p.s. The IP accounts have repetitively dropped redundant barrages of minimal-value posts slicing & dicing any discussion. (That seems more in common w/ propaganda-leaflet airdrop campaigns of WW II than any sort of contribution to meaningful discussion. The recent insistence many reliable media resources quoted in their words for subject as, "Youngest Patent holder of India". Therefore the subject must be mentioned as youngest patent holder of India. is enough for me to deduct all credibility and ignore this IP altogether. The only thing missing here are more accusations that we as editors have "made fun of", "humiliated", "degraded", and "abused ". Perhaps I'm burnt out from this. This IP s/b warned and blocked if their pattern continues it is disruptive and single-purpose COI all over the place.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 06:32, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

For your inspection Ihardlythinkso (talk) NeilN and Abecedare (talk) Sirs: I think Ihardlythinkso Sir has missed a reliable resource of "The Times of India" clearly mentioned the subject as youngest patent holder of India in the following link, when the subject received prestigious ability award and that too with standing ovation. Moreover The Times of India mentioned the subject as Youngest Patent holder of India. This link is not a case of Hearsay by Father. The exact words by " The Times of India" about the subject were "However, it was nine-year-old Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati who got the loudest applause in the auditorium which was choc-a-bloc as he belted lines from K'naan's 'Wavin' Flag'. Hridayeshwar, who was diagnosed with Duchenne muscular dystrophy, a degenerative disorder affecting the use of his arms and legs, is the youngest patent holder in India as the inventor of circular chess."Italic text http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-03-10/chennai/37597886_1_duchenne-muscular-dystrophy-eminence-award Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

For your inspection Ihardlythinkso (talk) NeilN and Abecedare (talk) Sirs: Reference 3 also clearly mentions the subject as Youngest Patent holder. I am very sorry to repeat my words again but i am doing so as i thought Ihardlythinkso Sir has missed the link by "The Times of India" for subject as Youngest patent holder of India. According to Ihardlythinkso Sir (Detailed Contribution) as followed, :"one way or another I still feel the text "according to Bhati's father,............... and single-purpose COI all over the place" ::There was no mention for " The Times of India" link Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Kind inspection for : Ihardlythinkso (talk) NeilN and Abecedare (talk) Sirs: Reference 1 Clearly writes "Before Bhati, Biplove Sharma at the age of 16 was the youngest patent holder. Kashyap Gopi got patent at the age of 17." I think Ihardlythinkso (talk) Sir: The answer to your one of the question lies in above words of Reference 1. These words of reference 1 can answer your words as followed "If so one would think they'd have the moxie to report in the article who the previous youngest patent holder was whose position was usurped because of Hridayeshwar's patent, since if they conducted that research they'd have had that info already at their fingertips. Reporting same in the article would have allowed them to write a more interesting and credible report, and I don't think that is expecting too much from a reliable source." Moreover Reference 1 is also giving a Hint of Verifiability also! by Head/Title as Youngest Patent holder where father is not mentioned. Moreover in these lines by " The Times of India", Reference 1 : " "Before Bhati, Biplove Sharma at the age of 16 was the youngest patent holder. Kashyap Gopi got patent at the age of 17." These are words of The Times of India and not father which leads to the subject as " Youngest Patent Holder of India" according to reference 1 also Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:29, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Do not Agree with NeilN to large extent but yes he is right in considering the following link as decent source. one And that proves the point.Further i also agree that few of the above mentioned resources were not up-to the mark but few of them were reliableDr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 03:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I feel that subject should be mentioned youngest patent holder of India as there are lot of reliable resources to prove the same, where media mentioned it not the father. Yes how many of them are reliable might be debatable topic but at least one of them is already accepted by NeilN and that link is one Which clearly mentioned the same Bold, highlighting, just below Headlines. In many cases the father said but there also media mentioned the subject in the headlines not mentioning the father. Reference 1. Many reliable media sources quoted in father words, and many reliable media resources quoted in their words for subject as, " Youngest Patent holder of India". Therefore the subject must be mentioned as youngest patent holder of India. Moreover reliable media sources must have followed " Verifiability not hearsay" rule in quoting fathers words as he is not a competent authority for same. There must be reliability of words by father therefore they quoted his words for subject. Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 04:45, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

That's five posts in a row saying essentially the same thing and exhibiting the same behavior of other single purpose accounts that caused problems on this talk page. Please stop and let others respond if they so choose. You are just hurting your case now. --NeilN 05:27, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

NeilN Sir: I am trying my level best to speak truth, supported by facts. If it hurts some one or if it hurt an issue, i am sorry for same.Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 06:55, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

For your inspection NeilN and Abecedare (talk) Sirs: The Times of India clearly mentioned the subject as youngest patent holder of India in the following link, when the subject recieved prestigious ability award and that too with standing ovation. The exact words written in the news are "However, it was nine-year-old Hridayeshwar Singh Bhati who got the loudest applause in the auditorium which was choc-a-bloc as he belted lines from K'naan's 'Wavin' Flag'. Hridayeshwar, who was diagnosed with Duchenne muscular dystrophy, a degenerative disorder affecting the use of his arms and legs, is the youngest patent holder in India as the inventor of circular chess."Italic text http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-03-10/chennai/37597886_1_duchenne-muscular-dystrophy-eminence-award Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

For your inspection NeilN and Abecedare (talk) Sirs: Reference 3 also clearly mentions the subject as Youngest Patent holder Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Subject in Official Journal (Intellectual property and Patents : Government of India:): Deserves Child prodigy + Update

The following link is the official journal of Intellectual property and patents of Government of India. Please open this link then go to page number 9788 @ The Patent Office Journal 03/05/2013. This link clearly proves the subject invented and is quoted clearly as inventor. Further the name of the inventor and his address can also be verified Moreover it clearly indicates the name of father as well as grandfather. The international category is also mentioned as B64C and more information can be seen http://ipindia.nic.in/ipr/patent/journal_archieve/journal_2013/pat_arch_052013/official_journal_03052013_part_i.pdf Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:51, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

In addition to it the following link supported by above link adds a lot of credential to the subject. The following link and above links can be easily compared to reach to lot of conclusions. The heading of the following link is "Intellectual Property India Publishes Patent Application for 'Chess'. This is very important to mention that the subject got patent in 2012 and his invention is published in these official journals in 2013. http://htsyndication.com/htsportal/article?arid=%221459028%22&pub=%22Indian+Government+News%22 Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:51, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

These official links has clearly written the abstract about the invention of the subject as "One to six person chess board game for providing a more challenging chess game having six players rather than the traditional two players. The 6-person chess board includes a round-shaped game board having a plurality of round-shaped game- piece movement sections displayed upon a top surface of the round-shaped game board; and also includes game pieces movably disposed upon the round-shaped game board." Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:51, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Further conclusions from above links: Intellectual property and patents of government of India has mentioned about the subject and that proves his work comes under intellectual property as far as India is considered. This proves the worth of the work of the subject. Still the subject is not a Child prodigy surprises me and will surprise most of the people. The subject's work is published in top most ie apex body of Intellectual property in India and that proves the intellectual worth of the subject to be suitable for Child prodigy Dr Meenakshi Kanwar (talk) 08:51, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

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