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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by North8000 (talk | contribs) at 17:10, 23 April 2014 (→Item #1 "What Goethean said" items). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Concerns relating to decisions about content

In the case of Gaijin - the "incivility" includes the use of the word "snark" and the like for which he is to be topic banned. Andy the Grump, whose level of incivility is notable (vide AN/I archives where I have defended his "right to be irascible") gets only a "reminder". For the nth time.

North8000 is told that specific content is "inappropriate" and "undue" where such a ruling on content is against ArbCom rules in the first place -- a site ban should not be made on such "evidence" at all. I disagree often with Gaijin and North8000, but the findings are based on exceedingly weak evidence, and the remedies are those applied to Raleigh.

(And to show how far-afield, mis-representative and and abusive someone is trying to take this, in the last 6 months, I have had a total of 11 edits on the article (including gnome edits and vandalism/test edit reversals), and a total of TWO edits (in 6 months) on the contested material is scarcely "casting aspersions" at all -- can someone actually weigh real evidence over there?)

IMO, the "decision" is more a "sledgehammer" based more on views by ArbCom on content than anything else, and, indeed, specifically makes rulings on content. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

First, regarding AndyTheGrump (ATG), the community is divided about, um, vocal irascibility and there's no consensus about how to deal with it. Few of ATG's remarks exceed the level of cussing. That said, the topic will likely be placed under discretionary sanctions and further instances may be dealt with severely on the initiative of the enforcing administrators.

Second, regarding conduct -v- content, the committee has been making findings about misuse of sources, undue weight, misrepresentation of sources, etc since its inception. Consensus has long been that these types of behaviour are conduct issues.  Roger Davies 12:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

In the case at hand, I respectfully suggest that the conduct issues and content issues are quite distinct - and that the content issues have clearly been considered in this case to a far greater degree than is proper. Any finding based on "undue weight" is clearly going past the normal remit of the committee. And site bans require, IMO, substantial evidence which has, again IMO, not been presented here - the aim is to help the project, and if the ban will not actually help the project, then it is improper. I can not see the Gaijin and North8000 sanctions as being anything other than overkill clearly based on content judgments being made by arbitrators, contrary to policy. And again, the use of the word "snark" compared to AtG's perennial irascibility is not in the same league. Collect (talk) 15:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Item #1 "What Goethean said" items

OK, on the "edited while logged out" seemingly to either avoid sanction and/or to escape scrutiny since the drafter has seen fit to just in essence says "what Goethean said", let's look at some of those "what Goethean said" items. First, my first edit in Misplaced Pages was on September 16th, 2009, and I was an obviously an newbie at that point. For my first few months I was young and stupid and I didn't realize how important it was for privacy reasons to always log in and I often didn't bother to log in. I also made other privacy jeopardizing mistakes which I will not detail here. As a result I ended up with some privacy problems with a particular editor and at my request a senior oversighter got involved, reviewed the whole situation, and and helped on that. Next, for those not already familiar, a dynamic IP address from a commercial internet provider is randomly "passed around" / temporarily used between their thousands of customers. And finally, even the newest claim of this "construction" is over 4 year old! Now let's look at a few of those blindly accepted "what Goethean said" items:

• The "same passive-aggressive writing style as North" was about a floating/dynamic IP address, and the last edit at that address was June 2009, months before I was even an editor!!!! And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• The "test edits North's sandbox then agrees with North" This was an IP who (in December 2009) made two edits one minute apart, first a test edit on my talk page (not my sandbox) and then a minute later a one word positive comment ("good") on my gnome work at an article where there was no dispute. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• "gun control, edits just below North" A floating IP from a commercial internet provider makes a gnome suggestion in an area that I know nothing about and never was or got involved in, and the entire history of that IP consists of 4 edits, including ONE (that gnome edit) on gun control And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• "IP99.x acted as an anti-climate change advocate and carried out a personal campaign against Tim Lambert" "IP99.x" refers to the entirety of 1% of all of the internet addresses on the planet earth! And so Goethean is saying that since one of them (with views opposite to mine on climate change) did something with somebody I never heard of and was never involved with on a topic that I was never involved with, all 4+ years ago that means I did something wrong!!!
• "WP:ANI proposal that IP99.x is an anti-climate change WP:SPA and would have interaction bans and topic bans, including a topic ban from John Lott, an advocate against gun control. The proposed ban would apply to the individual not the addresses and continue to apply should the user choose to register an account" So somebody of the 1% of addresses in the world with a "99" prefix , with views opposite to my own on climate change, was involved in something over 4 years ago that I know nothing about. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong"
• "Traveler's Dream account who edits North's sandbox" An editor who can barely write English and made the blunder of posting talk into an article the one lifetime edit from an internet provider IP address mistakenly posts a comment at an Article page, an admin userfied that page to my sandbox, and Goethean mistakenly says that they posted in my sandbox. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• "IP76.x cluster harrassed User:Arcayne" Somebody through one the 1% of the world's internet addresses that start with "76" did stuff wrong with "Arcayne" (an editor that I never heard of and never interacted with, on topics that I've never been involved in ) in 2008, over a year before I was an editor. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?

And everything else is of a similar construction.North8000 (talk) 12:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Have moved this to the talk page, the PD page should only be editted by arbitrators and clerks. Worm(talk) 12:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi North. So your claim is that none of those edits that I posted were made by you. Is that correct? — goethean 14:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

NOTHING made prior to September 2009 was made by me. Then, as a I said, in my first few months as a newbie I edited without logging in several times. North8000 (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

scope of dispute

Roger Davies Seraphimblade Newyorkbrad Depending on how strictly and broadly the scope is interpreted, I think it may be greater than intended. It effectively places all US (and perhaps global) politics under discretionary sanctions, and topic bans. IE, Obama, most everyone in congress (though some more than others), many many state and local politicians etc are certainly "people and organizations associated with governmental regulation of firearm ownership" - I think a qualifier may need to be put in to say that the DS/bans scope only covers these orgs/people when discussing gun control? If the broad scope is intended, then it should just say "Politics" or "US politics" and cut out the confusion/ambiguity. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The scope of the remedies is governed by remedy 1, not the finding. I will raise the issue of whether the precise language of the remedy should be tweaked. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad Per your "narrow" comment on Rog's remedy, isn't that true of the diffs for everyone involved? If a "narrow" topic ban is not appropriate for all parties, would perhaps a 6mo/1 year "control" ban plus an indef "nazi control" ban be appropriate? Gaijin42 (talk) 15:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

It's a judgment call, but I think some of those involved could use time away from the broader topic. In any event, these obviously are decisions to be made by all 11 participating arbitrators, not just me. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

North

The initial arbitrator proposal at the workshop was to topic-ban User:North8000. I did not notice until today that a proposed site-ban was added five days ago. I don't know about other people, but I really would have appreciated if the header at the Workshop had indicated a proposed site-ban, but it only indicated a proposed topic-ban. It's not right to include a proposed site-ban under a header that says topic-ban. This was undoubtedly a mere oversight, rather than an attempt to avoid scrutiny of the site-ban proposal, but still the oversight has consequences.

As to the merits of a site-ban for North, I hope Arbitrators will consider NYB's proposal for a final warning. I have seen North make some good edits, and I know that he is a better editor than at least one who has been completely unscathed by this gun control case. Yes, he needs to become much more concise at talk pages, but that can happen.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:39, 23 April 2014 (UTC)