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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Stanley Kubrick article.
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Steadicam photo

The photo showing Kubrick and Brown at work with the steadicam, File:Steadicam-sm.jpg, was removed by User:Werieth as not having any supporting critical commentary. However, there are about seventeen mentions to the steadicam, with entire paragraphs discussing it and its significance to Kubrick's films. I'm assuming that the image was removed in error without the editor having taken the time to find or read the supporting text. --Light show (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

You could mention the steadycam 1000 times and it wouldn't be critical commentary. We dont need a non-free image of Kubrick and the inventor to know the two worked together at some point. There is nothing in the image itself that text alone cannot replace, and it serves little more than eye candy. Werieth (talk) 10:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. It also shows Brown working with the Steadicam itself. Its use is discussed in the article and it is a rare image that benefits readers. It should be restored. - Gothicfilm (talk) 21:24, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
The usage of that file is useful, however our requirement for usage of non-free media is far more strict than that. Werieth (talk) 21:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 October 2013

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Please add David Barckhoff - Director to the section of "Film Director's influenced by Kubrick". "I owe my directing and acting style to Stanley Kubrick. I try to incorporate his style of directing movies and his unique way of relating to actors on set during numerous film takes just as he did". Reference quote as told to book author Jill Vanderwood for her book on "Hollywood celebrities and how they overcame the fear of public speaking". Book is being published end of Sept. 2013. quote also on my internet movie database biography.

NAVYMEDIC610 (talk) 19:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Please provide book info with publisher, page numbers, quotes, etc. after the book is released. Any links would also be helpful. --Light show (talk) 19:30, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Not done: directors mentioned in that section are "leading directors" and pretty much all of them are household names. Barckhoff's only directorial credits on IMDb are two episodes of a TV minseries, for which he served as "second assistant director: second unit". He has no Misplaced Pages article and it's doubtful that one would even meet the notability criteria. --Stfg (talk) 20:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Plus, end Sept 2013 has passed, and no book by Jill Vanderwood with a title like that is listed on Google Books. --Stfg (talk) 21:01, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 November 2013

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Typo: Under the sub-heading "writing and staging scenes" in the last sentence. "cinematograpy" should be "cinematography".

Hudsonmd (talk) 04:59, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done --Light show (talk) 05:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Stanley Kubrick/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 12:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

At 99715 characters of readable prose, this seems to be overly detailed, but I will take a look at this and see what advice I can give. I will take a look at policies and guidelines such as WP:SIZE, WP:SS, WP:CFORK. Of the 16717 WP:GAs as of February 1, 2013 only 5 were this long and less than 1% (164 to be exact) were longer than 61 KB of readable prose according to User:The ed17/Good articles by prose size. I am very likely to pursue scaling this back to a size that is not in the top 1%. However, I will take a closer look.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

  • One of the first things that I notice is that the Career section is 41336 characters of readable prose. However 14 or 15 of the 18 subsections should all lead with {{main}} tags. I think we should examine the content in this section since anything here should also be included in a dedicated article. Since I want to cut about 40% overall, we should cut this section heavily and probably an above average amount because not all sections will have logical places to send forked content. I understand that since you are use to seeing so much here it may seem odd to do, but let's try to reduce this section by over 50% to under 20KB. It is very easy to do this without WP losing any content because every film has its own article where the removed content can be WP:PRESERVEd.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
WP:QUOTEFARM - even in the lead. No need for so much copyrighted material as most can be re-written to summarised the copy and pasted quotes. Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited. -- Moxy (talk) 18:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Kubrick's Odyssey: Secrets Hidden in the Films of Stanley Kubrick; Part One: Kubrick and Apollo

Dear Stanley Kubrick wiki editors,

Have any of you seen the above mentioned documentary? It may be of interest to his article, if anyone cares to view it and contribute:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1992167/

MerlynDanielMali (talk) 19:46, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

In Kubrick's Odyssey, Part I, Kubrick and Apollo, author and filmmaker, Jay Weidner presents compelling evidence of how Stanley Kubrick directed the Apollo moon landings.
I have watched at least part of it. IMO, Weidner is a few cards short of a deck. Just my opinion, but I think it is widely shared. It is one of those home-made youtube style movies that manages to be both wacky and not very interesting all at the same time. I think there is a brief mention of Kubrick conspiracy theories on this page, but I don't think it deserves undue weight here. There is more discussion of it on the moon landing hoax page as well as at Main article: 2001: A Space Odyssey (film): Hoaxes and conspiracy theory Puddytang (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
In the popular media, any producer who can somehow get the word "Secret" into the title, gets their film moved (pushed) up the ladder. Print media, especially tabloids, thrive on uncovering so-called "secrets," even trivial ones. Some producers, assuming that maybe the word "secret" isn't enough to promote their film to us average folk, will embellish the title, and throw in "hidden secrets," (as opposed to unhidden secrets?) In any case, it doesn't matter what wiki editors think, since their opinions are not usable. Only published reliably sourced neutral commentary could be added. --Light show (talk) 20:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Quotefarm

With around 60 quotations here, the article is creaking and looks like it was written by a 12-year-old who has just learned ctrl-C, ctrl-V. We are definitely in WP:QUOTEFARM territory. I have not looked at just how it got so bad (it wasn't always like this) but does anybody fancy helping to trim it back to something like an encyclopedia article? --John (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

While I think it's good to tighten many of the quotes into paraphrases, my only concern so far is that dequoting for sake of dequoting only, without considering color, variety, prose and authenticity, could ultimately bleach the article into dry choppy sentencing. Taking one paragraph as an example which, IMHO, has some of those problems:
Before
  • A friend of Kubrick's family notes that although his father was a prominent doctor, "Stanley and his mom were such regular people.
  • They had no airs about them."
  • As a boy, he was considered "bookish" and generally uninterested in activities in his Bronx neighborhood.
  • According to a friend, "When we were teenagers hanging around the Bronx, he was just another bright, neurotic, talented guy—just another guy trying to get into a game with my softball club and mess around with girls."
  • Many of his friends from his "close-knit neighborhood" would become involved with his early films, including writing music scores and scripts.
Revised
  • A friend of Kubrick's family notes that although his father was a prominent doctor, Stanley and his mother were unpretentious.
  • As a boy, he was considered "bookish" and generally uninterested in activities in his Bronx neighborhood.
  • According to a friend, Kubrick was one of a group of talented people as a teenager.
  • Many of his friends from his "close-knit neighborhood" became involved with his early films, including writing music scores and scripts.

--Light show (talk) 20:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"color, variety, prose and authenticity" - we're an encyclopedia, the aspects of "color" and "variety" should only be there to keep the writing engaging, but not to try to put Kubrick on a pedestal, where it would be more appropriate for a biographical book. Quotes should only be used where paraphrasing is not possible to summarize the thoughts provided. --MASEM (t) 20:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
As Masem says, we are an encyclopedia. We should not use quotes unless absolutely necessary. --John (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I prefer to go by suggested guidelines for using quotations:

Quotations are a fundamental attribute of Misplaced Pages. Quotations—often informally called 'quotes'—provide information directly; quoting a brief excerpt from an original source can sometimes explain things better and less controversially than trying to explain them in one's own words. . . . Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit.

Naturally, we're all for improving articles. But at least support dequoting with relevant guidelines. Using a thesaurus is kid stuff, unless it improves readability consciously. And there's no guideline that supports your rule: We should not use quotes unless absolutely necessary.
In any case, what any of this has to do with "putting Kubrick on a pedestal," or why a WP bio can't have some of the same aspects of biographical books, is another issue, should you want to discuss them. --Light show (talk) 21:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Read all the way down that page, or click on this link. --John (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
You're obviously kidding, since none of the quotes used would remotely be plagiarism by any definition. One thing that's very clear from many of your dequotes, and the reason some of the paragraphs are now becoming choppy is that you're removing important transition words connecting one thought with a previous one. I'll add necessary ones back and assume you'll understand why when reading the context. --Light show (talk) 21:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
The issue with using too many quotes when what can be said can be summarized in simpler or paraphrased language is that it immediately gives the intent of favoritism for the person. We can talk about how important Kubrick's work in films was with a bit more dispassionate approaches; we want to be impartial in saying how important he was. Take for example the last current quote I see on the page, which is about director Refn talking about comparisons to Kubrick's work. The quote is "Of course if you put violence with classical music, people think it's obvious that's Clockwork Orange, because Kubrick used it very well and you always look at it as a reference. There are similarities between my Bronson and the Alex character from Clockwork Orange. There is kind of anti-authoritarian popculture iconish quality, but I stole every single thing from Kenneth Anger. Bronson is a mixture of Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome (1954) and Scorpio Rising (1964)." That can be stated, same reference, but w/o the quote, as "Refn commented that his character of Bronson was often compared to Alex from a Clockwork Orange due to similarities in style, but asserted that the character was really taken from Kenneth Anger's works..." There's quotes where the quotes are simply not needed. --MASEM (t) 21:58, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Not sure when or who added that one, but it's way too long and convoluted and clearly worth trimming. --Light show (talk) 22:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

How Kubrick phrased his thoughts is of much more interest and value to me than the paraphrasing of someone else trying to re-word them just for the sake of avoiding using quotes. - Gothicfilm (talk) 21:50, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

it does depend; there definitely are cases where Kubrick's own language is important; but we don't need full blockquotes for mundane recollections. Take, for example, this quote under Directing: "When Peter was called to the set he would usually arrive walking very slowly and staring morosely ... As work progressed, he would begin to respond to something or other in the scene, his mood would visibly brighten and we would begin to have fun. ... Peter reached ... a state of comic ecstasy.:135" The better way is simply to say "Kubrick noted that Peter would start days of filming in a lethargic manner, but as days progressed he would brighten up and at times achieve "a state of comic escstasy"." Still quote but not quotefarming the article. --MASEM (t) 21:58, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's another good "bad example" that was just readded - "Spartacus is the only film on which I did not have absolute control," he later said. absolutely does not need the quote. Kubrick stated that Spartacus was the only film he did not have absolute control over. does exactly the same job. --MASEM (t) 22:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps, but your earlier example promoting "in a lethargic manner" is your words. I would much rather see how Kubrick actually described the situation. And in several instances I get more from reading between the words, but I need the words to do that. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough, but still, you can even inject a partial quote from the above, instead of the full one. in that specific example, the "state of comic ecstasy" is extremely valuable as quote material for Kubrick in describing Sellers' acting, it's just getting the framing for it. The whole quote is not needed. --MASEM (t) 22:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
That example is reasonable if there was some benefit to a third-person statement vs. a first-person one. Almost the same number of words, but hearing Kubrick speak is better, IMO. A string of bone-dry declarative statements is never as good as hearing people in their own words, within reason. --Light show (talk) 22:22, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
He's stating a fact, not opining about something. There is zero need to use a quote for something like that. And yes, we are supposed to write more bone dry than this currently is. We can still make that type of text engaging. --MASEM (t) 22:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry guys but it isn't tenable to have 60 quotes in an article. It isn't what we do. You are welcome to set up your own quote collection or contribute to Wikiquote, but here we try to summarise. --John (talk) 06:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

That is rather condescending. The quotes have a purpose in context. The three quotes I restored were justified. I gave good reasons for them which you ignored. Instead of following WP:BRD you just reverted them back with your banal and in at least one case off-the-mark summaries, like calling one "surprise" when that quite missed the point. Your text is not engaging and in some cases badly written.

How can you replace

Today, many film critics and moviemakers regard it "as the most significant Hollywood breakthrough since Citizen Kane (1941), with some, such as Spielberg, calling it his generation's "big bang"

with

Today, many film critics and moviemakers regard it as the most significant Hollywood film of its generation, with some, such as Spielberg, calling it his generation's "big bang".

Why take out Citizen Kane? Did you even notice you're now repeating generation twice in the same sentence? You come rolling in here to enforce your view of how to correct WP articles, and you put in that kind of sloppiness. The quote you took out was not talking about a generation, but was using one frequently cited historically important film often used in film scholarship as a marker. But you lost that meaning.

You also restored one co-writer to the filmography I had taken out in a separate edit, even though as I said Kubrick had co-writers on nine of his films. Why name only this one here? The fact you put that back with no comment indicates you are using rollback with no discrimination.

As Light show said -

I prefer to go by suggested guidelines for using quotations:

Quotations are a fundamental attribute of Misplaced Pages. Quotations—often informally called 'quotes'—provide information directly; quoting a brief excerpt from an original source can sometimes explain things better and less controversially than trying to explain them in one's own words. . . . Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit.

You are going against WP:BRD. The three quotes I restored should have been left in absent discussion. You do not have consensus for this, as only one other editor agreed with dequoting in this thread, saying we are supposed to write more bone dry than this currently is. We can still make that type of text engaging.. Even if I agreed with that, you did not meet the second point there. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

There's no limit to quotes and I don't think anyone is saying "You can only have X quotations in this", but there are quotes being used for zero reason when they are simply iterating a fact or straight-forward opinion that can be easily restated in plaintext. There's certainly quotes or parts of quotes that should be kept, no doubt, when we have Kubrick's own thoughts or other people opining on Kubrick in non-standard but eloquent phrases that we can't restart without WP:NOR re-interpretation, just that there's a good number that can be restarted with ease. Consider the quotes a sugar topping on a dessert - in moderation it makes the article so much better, but too much and you'll get sick of it fast. --MASEM (t) 02:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
He does name a quote limit. My thing is they should be better chosen and summaries better written, if necessary. And as I said, the three quotes I restored should have been left in absent discussion. Citizen Kane should be restored as well. - Gothicfilm (talk)
Not really, he said , effectively "the 60 used in this article are overkill". I agree that CK should be put back but that doesn't needed to be quoted since it's a straightforward statement of opinion. --MASEM (t) 03:18, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Condensing

I have 4 or 5 books on Kubrick which I got through the grant and will be steadily going through each one and adding content either to this or his films. The problem is that this is already 185kb and although quite good in part is rather too long and not quite as focused as it should be. I feel that we need sister articles examining the various aspects of his work in detail and to begin condensing this main article. I think the first priority for this is to split into separate articles and begin condensing down. Nobody needs a personal life section that long for instance.I might be adding a fair bit of material which at some point can be reworked and split into different articles. It's very tough to write a fully comprehensive well written article on somebody as complex as Kubrick. This article should essentially though be a biography and a neat summary loosely outlining his major themes with sub articles covering them in detail. We'll see how it progresses anyway but I hope nobody gets offended by me doing what really needs to be done on this. I'll try to retain all material at least partly here and in sub articles. A raw effort is needed I think. so if I cock up sourcing or whatever please assist me during the transition! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Remember - each of his films are clearly notable. Detailed discussion of his directing style specific to each film (not the broad overview, that's needed on its own) and each film's history should be left to the film's page, summarizing each with about 2 para-worth of content to place the film in context. For example, reading the Dr. Strangelove section, that's excessive on detail that is not specifically aimed at describing Kubrick, the person (for example, why do we need to know about the War Room set on Kubrick's page?). Of course, we are treating the movie timeline as his personal timeline as well, so details that reflect changes or happenings in his personal life should be brought up here, such as his moving to England for filming Lolita. The issue with excessive blockquoting is also leading to size issues here too, another reason to trim down and make sure this is focused on the biographical aspects and not so much about individual films. --MASEM (t) 13:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
And to note: in terms of what counts towards SIZE (prose only, no refs, tables, captions, etc.), this is at 125kb. It's large, as 100 kb is the recommended max, but I would avoid trying to split just it's there. I think if you fixed up the movie section to be more on the bio side as a starting point, that's going to help make it come to reasonable size.
User:Dr. Blofeld, this sounds like an excellent plan. Moving material that is not specifically biographical to other articles should improve them, as well as improving the focus of this article. What is "the grant" that you refer to at the beginning of your message? Reify-tech (talk) 20:20, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the interest guys. The grant I got through WMUK here. To date I've done Althorp which is now at GAN from barely more than a stub. I have five books on Kubrick. I've begun going through the complete films book first. I've already added a fair bit to earlier life from it and some to his themes. Beautiful book, highly recommended for any Kubrick buff like myself. Yes, Kubrick was one of those rare directors who focused on quality rather than quantity and has few enough in which I think covering each one by section is appropriate. Every film of his for me was a masterpiece, even his first one, even if amateurish. However, I think we really need to be well researched and really concise in the coverage of each one and only stick to the most important points. As you say we don't want to really be over 100kb of prose at the end and we want to avoid unnecessary detail like in Dr Strangelove section and keep it focused. This is going to take some time but gradually I'll be adding material to this and his film articles. It might grow very big before we can cut it down again to ensure it is really comprehensive and well-written. Over time though I think we can much improve this and at least get it to GA. For me it's near enough to being the crown jewels of cinema, so let's do a good job!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

And yet another idea - even after condensing if the article is still far too large, then I would suggest: Directing style of Stanley Kubrick as the possible split article, since that itself is probably a notable topic on its own in addition to the life of Kubrick. I would try to avoid this if you can, and I think you can, but this to me would the most acceptable, non-controversial split. --MASEM (t) 20:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and Themes of Stanley Kubrick etc. As I say now I've split the MASSIVE personal life section and the other and condensed down into something reasonable I do't think we need to worry too much about the size for the time being, although going through and condensing some of the info on his films and improving the flow of the directing section by removing or paraphrasing some quotes in part is recommended. I might do that tomorrow. The main focus now I think is quality of information and I think I can start working towards that from the books I have. Let's not split into Cinematic style of Stanley Kubrick etc yet anyway until it's really developed and we can then split and condense. I'm hoping to replace a lot of the existing sources we have and update it as we go along. Way too many quotes in the style section too, we need to be more selective and try to improve focus and flow. Some may be more important than others but some I think can be paraphrased or removed. Obviously we don't want to lose anything valuable though. I have a fair few quotes from my books which I'll be adding which I think are of better quality than some of the existing ones, so some might be replaced. I'm sure gradually it'll sort itself out as it is improved and not end up too much like a quote farm! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:45, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the article is long and can be improved. However, some of the rationales for condensing it, beyond the word count, seem incorrect and somewhat worrisome. Worrisome, because the only other time an editor mentioned their having books on hand as a reason for wanting to edit an article, see Peter Sellers Talk, it devolved into a battleground: ( I've got a few other books knocking around, including a largely unread copy of the Lewis book (how much bile and hatred in one book can there be?!) so I hope we can get something fairly special out of it.) Since Kubrick and Peter Sellers worked together on a few films, it's worth comparing the two articles, IMO.
Regarding size, Sellers' is about a third shorter, but according to those who reviewed the final article, it became ”incomprehensible”. And pointing out such problems was no easy task. But size, IMO, is not as important by far as an article's organization and readability. Taking Masem's reference to Dr. Strangelove, for example, which Sellers starred in, a comparison between the Sellers' article commentary with Kubrick's, some might understand my opinion.
Size was also used as a rationale in Sellers for deleting his infobox, without discussion, which opened up a new front in the ongoing battle. In any case, comparing the TOC of Kubrick with Sellers, it shows a dramatic difference. Where Kubrick's article is a biography, only a portion of Sellers' is, with technique and his legacy not part of it. Where Kubrick has separate "Personal life" section, with easy-to-find details about his marriages, family, and residence, Sellers' has none, which makes finding similar information difficult.
Another major difference is that for Kubrick's article, the sections devoted to his films focus primarily on Kubrick, including his motives, opinions, problems, philosophy, etc. about that particular film. Reading Seller's section for that film, finding such personal details is extremely difficult. As the article was being rewritten by some other editors, I pointed out what appeared to be a hodge-podge of often disconnected dry factoids which undermined readability and explained little about Sellers' thinking or his personal desires as an actor. Even the few personal opinions Sellers did give about his career, were moved to a nearly-hidden notes section without explanation.
I think it would be best to first discuss major edits, certainly splits, before making them. However, in all honesty, after my experience on Sellers, despite it's GA/FA designation, I fear the worst. Sorry guys. --Light show (talk) 21:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
That's very sad don't you think? This has very little to do with Peter Sellers. And SchroCat or Cassinanto aren't going to be editing this one anyway, at least not actively. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:42, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I think trying to compare Sellers to Kubrick, from the standpoint of an encyclopedic article, is apples to oranges, specifically that trying to summarize the life work of an actor from that of a director. They receive different focuses in the literature, and thus the approach to how they are built will be different. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Kubrick's TOC structure would work for many actors, the one difference might be instead of "Directing techniques," for instance, it could be "Acting techniques," or "artistry," if that's known. Directors and actors all work on the same things, films, except from different sides of the camera. --Light show (talk) 22:34, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, first it will depend on director. For example, I doubt Michael Bay will have anything comparable to the amount of detail that Kubrick has had. But that said, directing a film is a much more extensive and broad job than just acting (this is not to trivialize the importance of actors to the result, though). There is a lot more study on how the world's best directors approach their films, compared to how the world's best actors approach their roles. --MASEM (t) 22:52, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Given that you are likely to add many footnotes referring to the same set of reference books, I suggest that you consider using Template:RP to add page references. In its basic form, it extremely easy to add to a footnote. See also the articles on Arnold Orville Beckman and Frank Oppenheimer for examples of how it is used. Reify-tech (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I prefer sfn myself.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:15, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Progress on this will be slow over the next few weeks unless the weather suddenly turns miserable. It's very difficult editing a major article like this during this hot weather with a 28 inch monitor which gets hot as well! I prefer to work on an article like this on a cold rainy day when I can wear a nice cosy jumper and feel more comfortable!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Trivia

By another very strange coincidence, and referring again to the Peter Sellers article, with its discussions, a problem I already see here is potentially overloading it with trivia. The first problem a recent peer review noted was the article's size along with being "overly detailed." Therefore, reading some new edits, most of these details are also trivia, ie. On 19 July 1949 he photographed movie star Montgomery Clift eating his cereal . . . . If the article is already potentially maxed out in size, such trivia is of little help and may do the article great harm.
On Sellers' FA review, I wasn't joking when I said, It's ready to keel over with the dead weight of factoidal obesity in its present state it resembles a beached whale, done in by trivia blubber. I assume that was one of reasons that readers who rated the article felt it was "incomprehensible." IMO, there is no simpler way to undermine the readability of a bio than by flooding it with useless trivia, and the fact that Sellers was a FA has not changed that opinion. --Light show (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

No it isn't. Being assigned to photograph a big movie star like Monty Clift was a major progression in his career. All of the Kubrick books discuss the "Glamor Boy in Baggy Pants" photos in fair detail and wouldn't write about it if it was trivial. Can't you just keep your opinions to yourself and forget your petty vendetta over the Sellers out of this until it is written and condensed??♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The problem is, this article doesn't explain what's necessary about that. It reads as trivia "Oh, he took a photo of a famous person eating cereal". If there is importance to that, you need to give it context - was the photo something that helped his career due to the interesting subject? If this was just some event and you can't say more about it, then it does read as trivia.
A part of the problem with this article remains that there is signifiant weight given to talking about each of the films with production details that should be on the film pages, and not here. Not that we dont talk about his films, but should be in very broad terms on Kubrick's role as a director in the spotlight, and not the little details about production that would be better suited for the film page. --MASEM (t) 19:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The idea is to write it in detail and then condense down at a later date. The very best articles are usually very comprehensive and have been cut down from something larger. The material I'm writing can be used in the films or sister articles of this and can be condensed down to the most important points once written. If you have experience as a writer you should know this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:07, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Certainly yes, no question, but we're also talking about a live version that anyone can read. Perhaps it might be better for doing the type of "mass expansion then trimming) that you are talking about in userspace, even dropping a link to that page here so others interested can help, but once cleaned up, to move back into mainspace (and there are plenty of admins that would be glad to help with the necessary history merge). It's when the changes are left "live" for a long time that can be a problem. If you were planning on an intense one-two day period of editing and trimming, that's reasonably but this appears to be process that might take several months (I'm discounting the weather problems that have limited your editing). --MASEM (t) 21:13, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

For this to be the best possible article I'll need to go through each book I have and extract information and once done it can be filed down to the most important points and some content moved into film articles or whatever. But it's going to take time and the article will likely get pretty huge during the process and some info will be added which might be better in the film article no his biography. But either way I still need to get the material onto here and find the best way to use the resources that I have. If this doesn't get too many changes, perhaps I should work on it in my sandbox. I'd like to overhaul a lot of the bloated sources and quote farms for a start.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, you are clearly overloading article sections with trivia along with quotes. The goal is to remove trivia and needless quotes. Now that Schrocat is joining your team, the problems noted with the Sellers article are now even more relevant. Rather than flood the sections with trivia that needs to be trimmed out, how about adding your section edits to Talk:Stanley Kubrick/sandbox2, first. The idea of first adding minutia and then deciding what should be kept in, will not work, so kindly do your drafts in the sandbox. --Light show (talk) 08:04, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Drop the bad faith Lightshow. I certainly don't intend to work on any article you are connected with, as I don't want a repeat of the stupidity of 1,001 RfCs just because you don't like something that improves the article. My passing edits here were just to remove a couple of pointlessly long and out-of-place quotations that should never have been there in the first place. As to where edits are made, it is not up to you to tell other editors where they should be editing. - SchroCat (talk) 09:21, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
No, I'm not clearly overloading sections with trivia. The article needs to be researched and written first before you can condense it. Clearly you know bugger all about writing articles, otherwise you'd know that you generally write them first and then condense and copyedit, filing it down. The best you've ever managed is C class. That the Peter Sellers article reached featured article status and was supported by a wealth of top editors here and was approved by the delegates illustrates in itself you are clueless about biographical content and what is required. The strength of wikipedia has always been that we're NOT PAPER and more detailed and comprehensive articles than you might see in Britannica or a typical encyclopedia is encouraged on here. I am aware that some of the details I've added will need to be moved to the film articles and filed down later when it is fully condensed and copyedited but in order to write the best possible article you really need to do this and then file away at the material. I need to get the material onto here first and then decide how to disperse it. One man's trivia is another man's vital information, and I'd thought actually that I'd already improved on a lot of vital information on his earlier life in what I've done so far and that the earlier life is now the strongest part of the article. That you are complaining even at this very early stage says a lot about your mentality and lack of experience with decent article writing not to mention a disgusting lack of good faith that somebody is bothering to improve such an important article. Keep your Sellers vendetta out of this. I shan't be editing the mainspace article to avoid having you leaving snarky comments on everything that is added.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:55, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, while the strategy of "include as much as possible and then pare down" is a correct approach to writing a good summary article for an encyclopedia, having done it myself, I do think that if you are adding these details on the "live" version of the article, you need to be a bit more selective to start, in contrast to if you were doing this in a sandbox article (or you need to be doing such revisions and trimming over a relatively short period - a few hours or a day or so - so that the article isn't out of shape for very long). I am not making comments on the quality of what is being added, kept, or removed, just that the way WP works, you shouldn't data-dump information into an article with good intentions to come back at a later time to clean that up, you just need to be more selective to a degree to start , or do some of those edits outside of mainspace. --MASEM (t) 13:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
I've noted obvious problems with your initial edits in Talk:Stanley Kubrick/sandbox2. More to come. --Light show (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
If Blofeld's doing in the sandbox, let him the time and patience to do his editors. Those edits aren't going to hurt this article. I will presume when the sandbox is ready, Blofeld will ask for comments, and then reviewing the changes makes sense, but arguably until then, it's far too early. (I will note that when the sandbox is ready to be moved back in I can help do the history merge appropriately). --MASEM (t) 23:50, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
As noted in the sandbox, looking at just his few edits, they have already done damage to the article. Added to what I consider the "demolition" of Sellers' article, the similarity between Blofeld's editing style to this article with Schrocat's to Sellers, is beyond coincidence. Can someone state categorically that it is only a coincidence? --Light show (talk) 00:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes and you know why? Because they're both the work of quality writers who know how to write biographies. That's why they're similar, aside from the fact I made some sizable editions to the Sellers article myself. You don't seem to understand comprehension in writing articles on wikipedia and why certain content in necessary. You're bloody clueless how to write biographies as evidenced by your mass of haphazardly constructed quote farms which disrupt the flow and concision so you're not worth the light of day in listening to with your "concerns". ♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Stop being so obnoxious to others, WikiWatcher. "Demolition", my arse: you really do have no idea how to develop and grow an article. Your efforts in development are poor, from what I've seen, and you have absolutely no idea what a decent article actually is: your constant mewling and puking about the Sellers article is utterly laughable, when it stands there as an FA, agreed upon by the community to be one of the best articles written, and all you can do is moan and complain. If you ever manage to do anything decent in terms of article development, peopl may start taking you seriously, but your ongoing sniping, whining and carping about improvements over "your" articles show just how low your standards actually are. Which brings me to... - SchroCat (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Since 95% of all of your many talk replies here and elsewhere, when I've noted issues, have been filled with PAs and uncivil remarks, your comment is typical. Let me know if you need examples and how many. --Light show (talk) 01:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
You want me to give evidence of your ongoing and misplaced knee-zero bitchiness about the Sellers article? How you consider this to be better than the current version? Your incivility about the work of others leaves a huge amount to be desired: your obsession with the Sellers article is typical, unwarranted and unwelcome. - SchroCat (talk) 05:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
There's zero reason to be considered with an in-progress, sandbox draft of an article as we are not expecting readers to see it. Zero damage. You're assuming very bad faith on the parts of Blofeld and Schrocat here. --MASEM (t) 02:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I was only referring to the edits already made, not future ones, and clarified in Talk:Stanley Kubrick/sandbox2. --Light show (talk) 03:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

LOL @ Talk:Stanley Kubrick/sandbox2. The major problems with the article are mostly your doing not mine. It is actually amusing to think that you're the one criticising me for excessive trivia when it is you who mostly wrote an article, a third of which are unnecessary quotes! A whopping 163kb quote farm. I wouldn't even know where to begin with writing down what is wrong with this article. What part about writing for comprehension and then cutting at a later point don't you get? That you've begun a detailed critique even at this every early stage ieven before I've done the full research and cutting illustrates you have nothing but bad intentions towards this. You ought to be banned indefinitely for your long track record of trolling here. I'm ignoring you from now on, you're a pathetic incompetent little boy who has nothing better to do than troll wikipedia. Dr. Blofeld 08:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Golly gee, doc, that sounds an awful lot like what mister Shrocat says about writing like a 12-year old below. --Light show (talk) 16:46, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Quote farm

Why are there so many overly-long and pointless quotes in here? A few well-chosen ones are all well and good, but we seem to have ones better selected to the respective film articles, rather than a biography. WW has gine to revert mode, rather than try and see other people's point of view, so I invite all comers to express their opinions of the excessive use use of overly-long quotes throughout. - SchroCat (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

During the editing of the article a few years ago, a number of editors, including myself, added quotes. There was discussion about some of the quotes and many were deleted or trimmed. The consensus was established that the balance of current quotes to the article is fine as all are directly relevant to the sections and context. For instance, User:Gothicfilm noted, "How Kubrick phrased his thoughts is of much more interest and value to me than the paraphrasing of someone else trying to re-word them just for the sake of avoiding using quotes." For User:WickerGuy, the article's major editor, the key question was "are the quotes appropriately contextualized and well integrated into the rest of the article?" -- Light show (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
"How Kubrick phrased his thoughts is of much more interest and value to me than the paraphrasing of someone else trying to re-word them just for the sake of avoiding using quotes" would be fine if this was a biographical book on Kubrick but we're a encyclopedia and meant to be a lot more sterile on purpose. I've pointed how before many of the quotes are extraneous to capture the fact they are saying. Only if the wording cannot be easily paraphrased should the quote be used. --MASEM (t) 02:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
What a standard to shoot for. Let's be a lot more sterile on purpose. That kind of thinking is why I left this article, after putting in a fair amount of time on it off and on several months ago. There are many articles that include quotes that could have been paraphrased - and I've seen some that I thought were unnecessary. But the three quotes I tried to restore here last May were of value, as can be seen in the discussion well above. - Gothicfilm (talk) 03:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
That's how we write all of WP, per WP:NPOV. Excessive quoting is a sign of bias, at least where quotes are phrases where the factual information can be extracted easily. No one is saying all quotes need to go, but there's clearly quotes being used for no reason beyond it's Kubrick's own words but without any special language that paraphrasing can't capture. --MASEM (t) 03:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Since that kind of opinion must be objective, I'd like to bring this up at the Quotations talk page. Do you prefer I quote you or can I paraphrase this and your previous opinions? --Light show (talk) 03:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't care if you quote or paraphrase, but I'm speaking from WP's very objective stance - there's a certain style of language we use in writing WP to appeal to the largest user base, which in this case we take as "people that have never heard of Kubrick before but must learn about him". Quotes can be helpful to capture Kubrick's thoughts and what others thought about him in ways that we cannot paraphrase, but there are also cases where using a quote for something otherwise mundane that can be easily paraphrased without losing content or meaning is a problem. But there are points where you don't need the full 30-40 word quote to bring out a couple words that are unique: for example, the sentence: Taub had his own darkroom where he and the young Kubrick would spend many hours perusing over photographs and watching the chemicals "magically make images on photographic paper" is a good use of a partial quote that helps to understand why Kubrick got into film, but doesn't bog down the language with a full quote. That type of trimming is good and a benefit. On the other hand, with He adds, "The scenes look like European paintings of the 1700s and 1800s", and such paintings are considered art in the American popular mind. the quote is completely pointless as it can be summarized w/o losing meaning. --MASEM (t) 15:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
On the other hand, such a detailed critic's opinion that scenes looked like "1700s and 1800s" European paintings, could easily get tagged with "cite needed" notice. As long as the quote is in context, it's more accurate and honest to use a direct quote rather than some unknown editor's commentary. --Light show (talk) 16:59, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Assuming that the citation that follows the quote includes that quote, that citation can stay without the quote. That's still 100% verified information there. And no, in this specific case, the quote is using no "flowery" language that we can misrepresent - "1700s and 1800s European paintings" is just that, no ifs, ands, or buts. --MASEM (t) 17:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I prefer to go by suggested guidelines for using quotations, which says nothing about a preference for sterility or dryness:

Quotations are a fundamental attribute of Misplaced Pages. Quotations—often informally called 'quotes'—provide information directly; quoting a brief excerpt from an original source can sometimes explain things better and less controversially than trying to explain them in one's own words. . . . Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit. --Light show (talk) 03:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

QUOTEFARM is part of the same essay, so there's clearly a need to balance. --MASEM (t) 03:35, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to agree with John's comment of "written by a 12-year-old": it's not good practice to stuff an article to bursting point with so many quotes. It's just a lazy way to fill a page, rather than taking the time to think it through and paraphrase appropriately. – SchroCat (talk) 05:47, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
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