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Perfect Example of Bloat

I copied this from the Electronic cigarette talk page section of the same name as the section being discussed became part of this new page. AlbinoFerret 02:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The Environmental impact section, Relates to one source saying there is a gap in our knowledge. This doesn't need to be in the article, it's practically crystal ball. As yet we don't know the effects of e-cigarettes on the environment we also don't know their impact on souffles and space dust. A source saying "We don't know anything" doesn't mean the article needs a new section. Someone with a different position from me on e-cigs should turn up with some shears and trim this into a reasonable article. If I did it I'm sure some MED folks would claim bias towards e-cigs. SPACKlick (talk) 12:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

There is way to much speculation and we dont need embellishments and small sections on speculative information. The article is already swimming in speculative information with the same speculation being repeated. How many times do you need to repeat something in different locations? Environmental impact sounds like its talking about hazardous waste. AlbinoFerret 13:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

There was another claim from that same literary review, it was placed in Toxicology when it was clear from the source that it was talking about environmental impact of how its made. Its really not a health effect topic. I wasnt sure where to put it, so I put it in that environmental area until its discussed. This appears to be a fringe area, with very little weight.AlbinoFerret 14:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty confident that at some point it will be an area with enough information to deserve a section. E-cigs involve the manufacture of additional lithium batteries, disposable wicks and coils, production of the juice etc. However there's really been very little study of it so far. SPACKlick (talk) 14:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

More than likely there will be down the road. This literary review didnt come to any conclusions other than the more study is needed. Someone might do it down the road, but it could be years. Its just way to premature, speculative, and has little weight at this point. AlbinoFerret 14:21, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

@SPACKlick: Today, QuackGuru, thinking that it was only a problem because of only a few sentence filled up the section with claims from that one study and made it viable. The problem isnt that it only has a few sentences, the problem is weight WP:WEIGHT and pure speculation WP:CBALL with no other studies talking about it. The reason other speculation is allowed is because there is more than one review on the topic, so it has weight of some degree.

• The current version of the environmental impact section cites this source:

• Chang, H. (2014). "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes". Tobacco Control. 23 (Supplement 2): ii54 – ii58. doi:10.1136/tobaccocontrol-2013-051480. ISSN 0964-4563.

The source is presumed to be useful because it was published by experts in the field. I oppose the deletion of material published by expert reviewers in a field who are presenting the best available information. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:41, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Bluerasberry. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:55, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:PS Says it's wrong to base an entire article on primary sources. An awful lot of this article is direct from primary sources. We have no idea of the impact of this paper, or if the comment that the current status of environmental effects is largely unknown will amount to anything. This article needs to focus more on meta-analyses and collective reviews and get away from posting every statement from every interest group and every piece of speculation in every published paper is my point. One scientific paper speculating that there may be an environmental impact especially when couching that speculation in the distinct lack of evidence in either direction is not sufficient to warrant inclusion in an article, let alone a section. SPACKlick (talk) 00:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:WEIGHT

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views.

One journal article is a tiny minority, it shouldnt be included at all. Perhaps a one line that says something like "A review by Cheng raised concerns about environmental impact from e-cigaretts" But a but a whole section places it in a position of prominence and gives way to much coverage for a single article on the subject. Find 4 or 5 and maybe it can be expanded. This isnt silencing a reliable source, this is giving it the appropriate weight when compared to all the other points of view with larger number of reliable sources. WP:WEIGHT specifically addresses this.

Undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements. In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view.

There isnt even a opposite viewpoint to make a controversy that needs to be addressed. Adding all that from one source is just premature. We have had this same discussion on McNeil, it didnt have the weight, neither does this one. AlbinoFerret 02:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

To address this concern I have tried to summarize and move some material to subpages. Nothing was deleted or added in these edits. Additionally a bot will fix the refs. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for moving those sections to their own pages Doc. The article was 65kb of prose before the move and its currently 43kb. I was thinking that a split was going to be the next major discussion. Your moving the sections saved a lot of posts. But it doesnt solve the issue of one section being based on one journal article that was very speculative, with very little weight. AlbinoFerret 01:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Stating "A review by Cheng" is a clear WP:ASSERT violation. A WP:MEDRS compliant review should be given its WP:DUE weight. This is not a paper or a primary source. It is a recent review from experts which makes it the mainstream view. This is about quality. There are a number of WP:SECONDARY sources covering this subject but we are reaching a higher standard by using a review. I can expand the section by also using the minority view of secondary sources if editors wish. QuackGuru (talk) 05:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

That would be against WP:MEDRS. We should not lower the standards just to put in material that isnt just speculation, but highly speculative. If you want to use WP:DUE instead of WP:WEIGHT fine, they both lead to the same section of the page. Its due weight is little to none as shown in WP:DUE. AlbinoFerret

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