Talk:Ed Miliband - Misplaced Pages

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

"Religion = None" vs. "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (atheist)" in infoboxes.

Per WP:BRD and WP:TALKDONTREVERT, This comment concerns this edit and this revert.

(Please note that nobody has a problem with the use of "Atheist" in the article text. This only concerns infoboxes.)

"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby." --Penn Jillette

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." --Bill Maher

There are many reasons for not saying "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (atheist)" in Misplaced Pages infoboxes. They include:

It implies something that is not true

Saying "Religion = Atheist" in Misplaced Pages infoboxes implies that atheism is a religion. It is like saying "Hair color = Bald", "TV Channel = Off" or "Type of shoe = Barefoot". "Religion = None (atheist)" is better -- it can be read two different ways, only one of which implies that atheism is a religion -- but "Religion = None" is unambiguous.

It is highly objectionable to many atheists.

Many atheists strongly object to calling atheism a religion, and arguments such as "atheism is just another religion: it takes faith to not believe in God" are a standard argument used by religious apologists.

It goes against consensus

This was discussed at length at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 142#Changing "Religion = none" to "Religion = Atheist" on BLP infoboxes. Opinions were mixed, but the two positions with the most support were "Religion = None" or removing the Religion entry entirely.

More recently, it was discussed at Template talk:Infobox person#Religion means what?, and again the consensus was for "Religion = None".

On article talk pages and counting the multiple "thank you" notifications I have recieved, there are roughly ten editors favoring "Religion = None" for every editor who opposes it. Of course anyone is free to post an WP:RFC on the subject (I suggest posting it at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion) to get an official count.

It is unsourced

If anyone insists on keeping "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (Atheist)" in any Misplaced Pages infobox, they must first provide a citation to a reliable source that established that the individual is An atheist, and considers atheism to be a religion.

It attempts to shoehorn too much information into a one-word infobox entry

In the article, there is room for nuance and explanation, but in the infobox, we are limited to concise summaries of non-disputed material. Terms such as "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist", "areligious", and "anti-religion" mean different things to different people, but "Religion = None" is perfectly clear to all readers, and they can and should go to the article text to find out which of the subtly different variations of not belonging to a religion applies.

It violates the principle of least astonishment.

Consider what would happen if Lady Gaga decided to list "Banana" as her birth date. We would document that fact in the main article with a citation to a reliable source (along with other sources that disagree and say she was born on March 28, 1986). We would not put "Birth date = Banana" in the infobox, because that would cause some readers to stop and say "wait...what? Banana is not a birth date...". Likewise we should not put anything in an infobox that would cause some readers to stop and say "wait...what? Atheism is not a religion..."

In many cases, it technically correct, but incomplete to the point of being misleading.

When this came up on Teller (magician), who strongly self-identifies as an atheist, nobody had the slightest problem with saying that Teller is an atheist. It was the claim that atheism is a religion that multiple editors objected to. Penn Jillette wrote "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby", so we know that Penn objects to having atheism identified as a religion.

In the case of Penn, Teller and many others, they are atheists who reject all theistic religions, but they also reject all non-theistic religions, and a large number of non-religious beliefs. See List of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episodes for an incomplete list. Atheism just skims the surface of Penn & Teller's unbelief.

In my opinion, "Religion = None" is the best choice for representing the data accurately and without bias. I also have no objection to removing the religion entry entirely. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:43, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

There is a centralised discussion on this point at Template talk:Infobox person#Religion means what?. In my opinion the clearest way of expressing this in the infobox is by stating "Religion: none (atheist)". Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:33, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

"Religion = None (atheist)" or "Religion = Jewish atheist"?

Surely, as "Jewish atheism" is an article on Misplaced Pages, and as Mr. Miliband refers to himself as such (as stated later on in the article), then shouldn't this be changed? Or is there a specific Misplaced Pages policy on this which I have not read yet? – Jordan Hooper _(contribs) 20:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no evidence whatsoever that Miliband adheres to any form of atheism specific to people of Jewish descent. Concluding that he does would constitute original research. And incidentally, no form of atheism can be described as a religion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

(from the article)

"Miliband is of Jewish heritage—the first Jewish leader of the Labour Party—and describes himself as a Jewish atheist."

and the source given from the telegraph includes his quotation: "I have a particular faith, I describe myself as a Jewish atheist. " (emphasis added)

I'm pretty sure someone saying that they are a Jewish atheist is sufficient 'evidence' for the case of them being so. It's not trying to claim that atheism is a religion by any means, but Jewish atheism is a separate thing from atheism alone, otherwise there would not be a separate Misplaced Pages article on the subject. Why is this not mentioned in the infobox? – Jordan Hooper _(contribs) 21:08, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Or if it would be better, "Religion = None (Jewish atheist)" – Jordan Hooper _(contribs) 21:15, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

The fact that Misplaced Pages has an article on 'Jewish atheism' is neither here nor there - we do not cite Misplaced Pages as a source. As for what Miliband said, he describes himself as a 'Jewish atheist' certainly - but isn't an assertion that he adheres to a specific form of (non)belief known as 'Jewish atheism' - if such a thing actually exists. He is certainly Jewish by descent, and an atheist - but his self-description tells us nothing more than that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:27, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Remove the wikilink to "Jewish atheist" in the "personal life" section of the article then. – Jordan Hooper _(contribs) 13:25, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Jennifer Lipman (26 September 2010). "Ed Miliband is Labour's first Jewish leader". The Jewish Chronicle. Archived from the original on 28 September 2010. Retrieved 20 November 2013. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
Howard Jacobson (5 October 2012). "I'm Jewish. Ed Miliband is Jewish. We're all Jewish. So maybe Britain is One Nation, after all". The Independent. Archived from the original on 8 October 2012. Retrieved 20 November 2013. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
Steven Swinford (12 April 2014). "Ed Miliband's hope to be 'Britain's first Jewish PM'". The Telegraph. I have a particular faith, I describe myself as a Jewish atheist. I'm Jewish by birth origin and it's part of who I am. I don't believe in God, but I think faith is a really important thing for a lot of people. It provides nourishment, a faith about how you change the world.
Bright, Martin (4 November 2010). "My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am". The Jewish Chronicle. London. Archived from the original on 13 November 2010. {{cite news}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 30 June 2009 suggested (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

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