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JzG

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning JzG

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Middle 8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

JzG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 17 December 2014: JzG/Guy misrepresents scientific consensus about effectiveness of acupuncture (in fact there appears to be no unified consensus, rather a range of views). Asserts "consensus view that the weak positive results are fully consistent with the null hypothesis" despite no evidence to support existence of such scientific consensus. There is no single consensus evident in MEDRS's (or in clinical practice at academic centers, at many of which acupuncture is used) when it comes to efficacy for pain, cf. this; nor is there any source meeting WP:RS/AC. Indeed, there is evidence of a mainstream view (from the highest-quality MEDRS in the field) that acupuncture is more than a placebo and a reasonable referral option (for more re which, please see here ).
2. I'm not providing other diffs; I believe JzG would readily agree that this is a view he's repeatedly affirmed, and according to which he has edited that article numerous times.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

nothing pertinent.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Here. (only done as a formality; user is a veteran admin active in topic area and is certainly aware of these sanctions)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

It is tendentious to dismiss significant views, especially by admins whose views will tend to weigh more than most users; this is true no matter what side the view is on. Apart from this misrepresentation of the literature, JzG/Guy is highly clueful, and a block or ban would be imo quite unnecessary. All I seek is a warning, and that it be a formal one, since Guy is imo likely to dismiss it if it just comes from me (despite the sources mentioned above). I also hope such a warning would serve to put other editors on notice, e.g. Kww, who has made a similar misrepresentation; see his ArbCom request (diff), as well as editors on either "side" who misrepresent scientific consensus. I suspect Guy will dismiss this and ask for a boomerang, but the evidence is what it is.

Re JzG/Guy's statement: His sources obviously weigh, but don't outweigh mine and prove no consensus (even if they pretend one exists). He's right re qi but that's immaterial. Also see here (scroll to "The emerging acceptance of acupuncture...) for a quote from Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, the "most recognized book in all of medicine". That too is a stronger MEDRS than Guy's. Also see e.g. National Health Service: "There is some scientific evidence acupuncture has a beneficial effect for a number of health conditions." . I don't say my sources are consensus, just significant views rebutting Guy's assertion.

I also don't have a high opinion of Guy's ES & reply to my notification. Not the incivility, but the dismissal of valid criticism. And no, this isn't about gaining an advantage in the ArbCom case; it's unlikely to be heard.

Callanecc, I think JzG is still failing to take this seriously (see user talk thread), but I doubt that's significant. I see no other behavioural issues at this time. (There are behavioral issues with QuackGuru, cf. just below, but that's for a different venue, if any.) --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 08:01, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru (who has a long block log) and I have had numerous disagreements, and I see he hasn't dropped the stick despite my having been on a long wikibreak. He has a habit of "wondering" about my COI status even though I've answered him three times already and my comments on COI are linked in my signature line. Isn't this harassment? (If anyone really wonders about anything else QuackGuru is saying, just let me know.) --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 08:01, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

For Cailil (and also Sandstein), re content issues and AE: My complaint was about tendentiousness regarding content, so the two are kind of hard to separate. Although I explained above why I gave just one example, I understand Sandstein's point about needing to show evidence of persistent tendentiousness. Cailil, Sandstein was right to AGF about my relative lack of familiarity of AE. I'm clueful about the topic area and WP:5P, but not so much about dispute resolution boards. I'd hoped that neutral third parties here could "referee" a quick examination of MEDRS's, among other things. Next time (whenever that is) I'll seek feedback before posting. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 08:01, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

RAN1, point well taken (cf. also Sandstein's closing comment) about the purpose of AE. ... My reverts in July were (as the ES's indicate) to a consensus version with awkward but accurate wording, and were accompanied by plenty of discussion. A number of well-meaning editors made the same change -- one that that made it less awkward but also inaccurate -- and I always reached out to these editors, e.g. here. ... Why did I post at AE? Because it was (as I understood at the time) noted as a good venue for addressing POV-pushing by several Arbs, here. ... I don't have significant concerns about Guy's civility, but I am concerned about his IDHT in the face of MEDRS's that disagree with the views that he depicts as consensus (but which is actually one of multiple major viewpoints). --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 17:01, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Re COI: If anyone is wondering about it, please read my declaration: User:Middle_8/COI. Alexbrn has always disagreed with the part of WP:COI that says one's profession alone doesn't create a COI in that topic area. That aspect of WP:COI came to light during my own COIN (hence the "reframing").

RAN1 - Re COI, yes, acupuncturists do stand to benefit or suffer depending on how the subject matter is depicted. That's true for other professions too, but especially so for acupuncture given the state of evidence for its effectiveness (i.e. pretty thin). Note: In the "real world", practicing acupuncturists study and write MEDRS's about its effectiveness and are not generally considered conflicted. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 19:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Alexbrn, yes, you are familiar with my editing, so you know that the diffs you list below are cherry-picked, not as bad as they look, and are far from representative. I don't remove MEDRS's; this was a cut-and-paste error, which I acknowledged the same day it happened. But wait: you'd already asked me about those diffs awhile back, and I'd already answered, explaining that it was accidental. Now, you're bringing it up again, seeking to depict it as part of a pattern??? Good grief. ..... OK: For others, Here is a fully readable set of my candid replies from the first time I was asked about these diffs. I can elaborate later if anyone's worried about it. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 17:01, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Ncmvocalist - to the best of my knowledge, templating Guy was required, cf. Robert McClenon's comment here. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 18:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

RAN1 and others: HEY! You are getting way, way too focused on Guy's supposed incivility. It's not as if he bit a newbie. Yes, he can be an arrogant jerk (as he'd be the first to admit), but he gets things done, and you are poking him over nothing.

I really do not understand how stuff works at these boards, and it's making less and less sense. What I thought I knew about AE: a way to cut to the chase. All I wanted (however unrealistically) was an "adult" to either warn Guy to quit IDHT-ing about MEDRS's, or at least some good advice. Not your department? So IAR a little! (And if you're going to scrutinize my edits, PLEASE subject QuackGuru (talk · contribs · block log) to 1/4 of that scrutiny -- on that Guy and I agree.) --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 18:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

here; diff

Discussion concerning JzG

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by JzG

Procedural note: Middle8 as an involved, indeed partisan, editor, probably should not be issuing AE notices to admins. Guy (Help!) 21:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Middle8 accuses me of misrepresenting the scientific consensus. The consensus is that qi and meridians do not exist, there is no empirical evidence to support the existence or validity of acupoints, and the evidence for effect of needling is equivocal and problematic due to the difficulty of blinding to needle insertion.

Believers, of course, dispute this. That doesn't stop it being true. HSE, Ireland's national health body, summarises absence of evidence for existence of qi. What we do know, is that proponents of acupuncture routinely spin negative results as positive, see Pain Science for example. A systematic review of systematic reviews found no evidence that acupuncture is anything other than placebo. Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh also summarise the scientific consensus as I do. Ernst is arguably the most prominent credentialled expert on CAM in Europe; his studies on acupuncture are regularly published in the peer-reviewed literature (example). His view is actually mroe skeptical than mine, in that he considers the recent evidence with stage-dagger needles is conclusive and proves that insertion of the needle also makes no difference. You can read his views at his blog.

There are no accepted scientific or medical treatments that rely on the concepts of qi, meridians or acupoints. The acupoints and meridians did not appear in anatomy textbooks last time I checked (I no longer have a copy of Gray's so cannot verify this here and now). There are differences between acupuncture traditions as to their location. There is no consistent associated anatomy. To quote Ernst's 2006 review:

There is some tantalizing , but no compelling scientific evidence for the existence of either meridians or acupuncture points . Different authors disagree about their location or number. The evidence from histological studies or assessments of electrical conductance is unconvincing . Some researchers have suggested that the collagen content within connective tissue imparts electrical conductive properties which correspond to meridians . If one believed modern texts on acupuncture, there would be no space on our body surface which is not an acupuncture point .

— Acupuncture – a critical analysis, Journal of Internal Medicine 2006; 259: 125–137

This is not markedly different from my summary, but it is different, markedly and significantly different, from the "consensus" as expressed by acupuncture advocate Middle8.

My personal view is that anatomy acupuncture is actually a form of distraction therapy, a known effective psychological technique. Yes, it's a placebo, but a theatrical one, and sufficiently theatrical to engender known psychological effects.

This does not, of course, mean that my understanding of the scientific consensus is authoritative or unchallengeable, but it does mean that this request is frivolous, vexatious, and made in order to attempt to gain an advantage in a dispute (see case at ArbCom currently being considered).

Middle8 is asking you to legislate scientific consensus and establish that his beliefs are objectively correct, while the summaries I cite from journals and other sources are not. Journals are not a magic wand, of course: Chinese journals publish essentially no negative results of acupuncture at all, so the scientific community generally discounts them heavily in reviews. Most of Middle8's mainspace edits relate to acupuncture and TCM, many of them constitute edit warring and I see strong evidence of m:MPOV.

As an involved administrator I cannot sanction Middle8 for this tendentious behaviour. I think someone else might feel that the WP:BOOMERANG is a real possibility here. Guy (Help!) 14:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@RAN1

you cite, for example, this and as "uncivil". It's hard to see how one can deal with obdurate editors engaged in civil POV pushing without being blunt. That statement is blunt, not rude or uncivil. In the end, it profits nobody to use weasel words and play softly-softly, because we know from long and bitter experience that a clear and unambiguous statement is much less likely to be misunderstood or misrepresented. As to responses to Middle8's vexatious report, perhaps not trolling the admins is a better response than telling the admins to be delightful when being trolled? Just saying. We are, after all, dealing with human volunteers, not people paid to smile at the customer's every statement. It is fine to be blunt, direct, brusque even, just not rude, and I wasn't rude. Not that I wasn't tempted. Guy (Help!) 13:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

In response to your reply: that's what you perceive, viewing it out of context. In context, Middle8 acknowledged that he has a vested interest in acupuncture, but asserted that this is not relevant and that his edits are neutral (and thus implicitly that his judgment is dispassionate). These opinions are objectively wrong. Someone had to explain ti to him, and nobody else was around, so I did it. By the umpteenth attempt to explain why a vested interest is a COI and your edits that get reverted probably weren't neutral, you sort of run out of ways to gloss it up. Guy (Help!) 19:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Kww

Statement by QuackGuru

I am very familiar with Middle 8. We go way back. This is not Middle 8's first account on Misplaced Pages. See User:Middle 8/Privacy. Middle 8 appears to have a COI. See User:Middle 8/COI.

In late October 2013 the acupuncture page was junk with Middle 8 editing the page. Editors added numerous reviews and Cochrane reviews and updated the page. Middle 8 is laser focused on acupuncture. So it was no surprise that Middle 8 was not thrilled with the changes. Middle 8 signed a malformed RfC against me. See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/QuackGuru2#Outside_view_by_Jmh649_.28Doc_James.29. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive259#Proposed_six_month_topic_ban_of_User:Middle_8_and_User:Mallexikon. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive845#User:Middle_8_again. User:Middle 8 is well aware of the sanctions. I think WP:BOOMERANG is the likely result for Middle 8. I propose an indef topic ban for Middle 8. Middle 8 is wasting our time. QuackGuru (talk) 02:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I removed QuackGuru's opening paragraph as it concerned a content issue rather than an issue of editor conduct. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Middle 8 continued to make unfounded claims at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/QuackGuru2 even after he signed a malformed RfC against me. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive825#There_was_a_previous_proposal_for_a_six_month_topic_ban_for_both_User:Mallexikon_and_User:Middle_8.

Middle 8 added WP:OR to the lead: ...and therefore preventable with proper training. The verified text is: "...it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently."

Middle 8 deleted a failed verification tag but did not fix the original research he originally added to the lead. The word often was OR. The word many is sourced.

Middle 8 was edit warring over the specific numbers in the lede. The text he added was also original research.

Middle 8 added poor evidence and misleading text to the lede: "but have not been reported in surveys of adequately-trained acupuncturists." Only after User:Doc James commented on the talk page Middle 8 claimed he misread the text. Middle 8 has a pattern of making a lot of bad edits according to the evidence presented.

He deleted sourced text from the lede and body but he claimed the source does not support the statement. The comment he posted on the talk page shows he did read the source. WP:CIR to edit. Another editor finally restored the text after a long discussion.

During the discussion, Middle 8 was commenting about RexxS rather than the content: RexxS's ad hominem & general drama is a confession of weakness. Middle 8 was not assuming good faith with User:RexxS. Middle 8 continued to argue against including to the text. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine/Archive_51#Acupuncture_again. QuackGuru (talk) 06:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by RAN1

Template:Cue Middle 8 was officially notified about discretionary sanctions twice in mid-2014, both instances with regard to fringe and pseudoscience. He should be well-aware of what DSes are and how they work by now, and is liable to being sanctioned here for his actions since then. His interactions with Guy have been civil afai can tell; however, it should be noted that he has a COI. He announced his COI sometime before April 2014, and continues to edit the article with controversial changes, with a notable string of long-term edit warring back in October (see: ).

Guy's most recent edit to the acupuncture article is 8 months ago, with only two other edits this year, one a small addendum and the other a revert, so nothing sanctionable there. Guy's talk messages re Middle 8 are civil, see . The only instance of incivility on Guy's part was a user talk discussion on Middle 8’s COI, prompting these terse responses from Guy . The user talk indicates a few spots of incivility towards Middle 8, but not a pattern for it.

Ultimately, this looks like an attempt by Middle 8 to soapbox by AEing an admin, which unfortunately succeeded in pissing Guy off. I think an admonishment (if not a warning) for Guy for not keeping calm and an emphasized warning to Middle about how discretionary sanctions are for behavioral issues only, would be appropriate for this. --RAN1 (talk) 08:25, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: I can understand how you can see the first one as being civil, however the second one is well into ad hominem attacks. Saying Middle 8 is reinforc the impression of someone who is unable to accept that their COI is relevant, and who mistakes their own biases for neutrality is inappropriate at best for anyone here. Given Middle 8’s previous posts before that (accusing skeptics of POV-pushing, calling editors who supposedly take contrary views to his on the basis of his COI pathetic, etc), it was pretty clear you were going nowhere in convincing him of your beliefs on his COI. The best course of action would have probably been to disengage. There are appropriate ways to deal with perceived POV pushing, even perceived civil POV pushing, but blunt talk page attacks is not one of them.

@Middle 8: The point I made was about your long-term edit warring before and after acupuncture was protected, not the July discussion. I’ll take a look at it later, but that isn’t justified by previous consensus. The only relevant mention of POV and AE in that AC case is this: It is not the job of either arbcom or AE to rule on article content issues, beyond stressing that NPOV is non-negotiable. I can see how a fresh editor with no recent experience with AE might bumble a case, but your last statement along with the 2 notifications is evidence to the contrary, and you should really know better. Note that your interpretation of COI is likely not to be perceived by other editors or AE admins as accurate to COI, which may have something to do with the fact that a positive view of acupuncturing on WP would benefit your profession and a negative view would harm it. Just my thought, though. —-RAN1 (talk) 17:32, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: I did read the context, but my point was that there are alternate ways to approach this (namely, discussion about how profession affects POV, noticeboards etc.). You deciding not to use them in favor of ad hominem remarks seems to be the issue here.

@Middle 8: Regarding COI, Misplaced Pages does not apply that standard to COIs since Misplaced Pages's aims are markedly different than most MEDRS's. You should also be aware that AE does not "cut to the chase" in favor of any one involved party, and it's certainly not a place to get warnings for editors you consider disruptive free of scrutiny. Reporting stuff here results in an analysis of the behavior of all involved parties, including your own. I would imagine QuackGuru will come up eventually in the discussion once people have had a time to review his actions. --RAN1 (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Alexbrn

I'd class myself as "previously involved" in the Acupuncture article since I have edited there in the past, but gave up and effectively topic-banned myself because the article sucked too much and the Talk page environment was too toxic to allow a realistic prospect of improving it. Life has been better since. I have also had a number of exchanges with Middle 8 on the topic of conflicts of interest, both on the Acupuncture article's Talk page, and elsewhere – so I am familiar with Middle 8's editing history and stance.

This strikes me as an extraordinary AE filing since Guy's expressed view (with which Middle 8 obviously disagrees) is nevertheless perfectly respectable, and was made only on a Talk page. To request AE for this is a strain of Misplaced Pages's mechanisms.

I think this represents the latest in a pattern of behaviour over the last year which has also caused unnecessary strain:

• Middle 8 has a COI and to their credit, took this to WP:COIN where the advice seemed to be that yes indeed Middle 8 did have a COI which should be heeded. However by reframing the question and ignoring the responses Middle 8 seemed to take from this a different view and writes in an essay (linked from their sig) that "I don't have the specific 'Misplaced Pages kind' of COI". as a justification for not being bound by WP:COIU.
• In view of the above, there have been a number of contentious edits made to the article: deleting information about acupuncture's risks, and repeatedly chipping away at critical content in the lede.
• Middle 8 endorsed a hostile RFC/U against QuackGuru and during the course of this it became apparent they had not even properly reviewed the case that was being made, which was based on weak or false evidence. This again strikes me as an attempt to use Misplaced Pages's mechanisms to "do down" an opponent without taking proper care. See the section here ("I overlooked this insufficient evidence when I certified the RfC").
• During a content dispute Middle 8 has engaged in canvassing with the non-neutral announcement to would-be recruits that another (actually highly experienced) editor is "not grokking some basic stuff" and that "there's only one right way to read the paper" (which comment itself speaks of a problematic approach).

In deciding whether any WP:BOOMERANG applies to this filing, I think the above could be usefully considered. Alexbrn 10:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

Double standards applied. When newbie editors respond to disagreements in confrontational ways in topics under DS, they get banned. However, when established editors and admins, like JzG, respond rudely to edits which go against their personal POV, they, perhaps get warned. Or perhaps not. You guys kill me. Cla68 (talk) 14:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment by Ncmvocalist

Cailil, just a note that RfC/U no longer exists.

Seeing I'm here, I'll also note:

1. Yes, JzG erroneously asserted that involved editors are not permitted to issue DS alerts because, in fact, anyone can issue them. But that doesn't mean that Middle 8 was permitted to issue the DS alert when he, being an involved editor, knew JzG was already aware of DS here.
2. To be clear, Middle 8 asserted "I know you know about this" when he issued the DS alert to JzG.
3. Whether JzG intended to say "a stupid person" in the edit summary or to tell the person to stop acting so frivolously on his talk page (which is more consistent with JzG's actual comment) is ultimately a matter for JzG himself to clarify and apologise for if appropriate.
4. A warning is cited below from Dec 2013; we are now in Jan 2015, and the DS system was subject to changes since that time, as the admins below are aware (which both current and former arbitrators are not up to speed with even last month).
5. I don't think it is a benefit to the project to expect its contributors to demonstrate infinite patience at all times to tendentious editing, and that too when it continues in the user space. Similarly, does the level of frustration expressed by JzG on his user talk page equate to the problematic approach adopted by Middle 8 not just on JzG's talk page? Treating tendentious editing and an instance of incivility equally is risky business for arbitration enforcement, and the reason AE exists. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:34, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter

I honestly cannot believe that it is even remotely being considered that it is sanctionable for an admin to say that they are an admin, as is discussed below. I also tend to believe that, as others have said, this is an attempt at winning a content dispute through intimidation, and I cannot believe that any reasonable person would think that would work, particularly with JzG, who I have never gotten the impression was intimidatable. We can expect some individuals to lose their tempers or civility a little in hot content disputes, like this one, but I don't think that the comments by JzG even remotely rise to the level of sanctionability. I am not sure however that the filing of this complaint for such probably minor infractions, possibly in an attempt to bully others, might not be sanctionable in some way, perhaps at least with a rebuke and/or stern warning for abusing the process. John Carter (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by jps

Someone really should do something about User:Middle 8. He is one of the primary problems at acupuncture because as a practitioner he believes strongly in its validity and is willing to WP:FORUMSHOP like this in order to enforce his ownership of that article. He has been doing this for nearly a decade. jps (talk) 14:29, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Result concerning JzG

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

This is a content dispute and therefore not actionable. The arbitration process, and by extension arbitration enforcement, can only address problems of editor misconduct, but can't decide who is right in matters of content. While it is conceivable that persistent tendentious (aggressively non-neutral) editing could be considered sanctionable misconduct, one talk page edit is certainly not misconduct, whatever its merits may be. Assuming in their favor that they are not familiar with the purpose of AE, I would only warn the complainant that any repeated misuse of the AE process by making unactionable complaints may, in turn, be considered disruptive and sanctionable. Everybody who is commenting here should not comment on the merits of the content dispute; such contributions may be removed as out of scope.  Sandstein  17:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

On reading the case and reviewing Middle 8's editing history I'd be more inclined towards a harder WP:Boomerang. I see absolutely no reason at all to assume Middle 8 is unaware of AE's purpose - especially given that they were involved in an AE case about Fringe science in 2009 (yes that's 5 years ago but it's a world aware from being unfamiliar with AE in the context of fringe science). This looks like a straight forward attempt to "win" a content dispute by removing/chilling "the opposition" with process. I'd tend towards a sterner final warning for abusing AE and re: WP:BATTLE--Cailil 23:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• JzG: Just to note, any editor may issue an alert, regardless of involvement (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts). Your status as an administrator is irrelevant. When acting as an editor on a content issue, you're just any other editor. No opinion on anything else yet. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:47, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• Hence WP:INVOLVED. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:15, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that the complaint as currently written is asking us to rule on a content issue, which we cannot. @Middle 8: If you believe that there are behavioural issues which we can address please present them as soon as possible. Given the incivility in the response to the notification of this AE request (note that I haven't looked into the interaction between Guy and Middle 8 to see if this is explained by a pattern) suggests there might be conduct issues worth addressing (specifically civility) but evidence of those would need to be provided, I haven't looked beyond this. I'd also note that AE is unable to make decisions based on use of admin tools per WP:AC/DS#Placing sanctions and page restrictions, though actions or comments made while using them or while discussing using them may be admissible (I don't think there is a precedent on that? This is probably as close as we've come to any action by admins). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• Ok having had some time to review Middle 8's contribs I agree that there is some clear evidence (cf. RAN1's fist para and Alexbrn's statement) of tendentious editing regarding Acupuncture possibly due the issues related to the COI, but that neither here nor there. There is definitely growing evidence that a ban is needed to prevent this disruption, however if other admins are happy to review Middle 8's contribs in detail in this request then I'd encourage other editors to present evidence regarding Middle 8's conduct since 8 May 2014 when they were first alerted to the sanctions.
• With the current level of evidence I would be in favour of a logged warning for JzG to stay calm and remain civil in discussions as well as a warning regarding comments like "should not be issuing AE notices to admins" (in his statement above), given that they were previously given a logged DS

• I don't know that this remark actually constitutes incivility in this context. While it's ad hominem, given what looks to me like a very bad faith abuse of the AC/DS alert system I think it is an understandable, if rash & regrettable, reaction.I missed the edit summary, yes this is incivility. While I'm against any action being taken against any innocent user who is being vexatiously "process wonked" in principle I think a warning might in fact be appropriate. Guy is 100% wrong about admins being warned by other editors & I think a reminder about that is appropriate here too (HJM's wording above is spot on). That said if there are wider conduct issues (which would seem to be historical) between Middle 8 and Guy this would be better handled by dispute resolution attempts (mediation etc) or RFC/U or RFAr such matters, seem to me, to be beyond the scope of this forum--Cailil 14:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, given Callan's link to JzG's previous warning, I'd be inclined to go with something stronger than a warning. Imagine if a non-admin had been warned to watch their tone, for example, and was then brought back to AE and responded to the AE request in the same manner that resulted in the first warning. But I'm not sure what we could do, and I'm not sure that AE has the authority to sanction an admin for mentioning their admin status in a content dispute. The policy just says we can't restrict the use of the tools, but I wonder if this is sailing a little close to the wind? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• AE can't sanction admin actions as such, but it can sanction incivility, which may include references to one's admin status. But on the whole, while there may be a case for warnings of both parties because of incivility and vexatious use of AE respectively, I don't think that either party's conduct as documented here rises to the level where an explicit sanction is called for. If there is a case for sanctioning Middle 8 along the lines of Alexbrn's comment, it should be submitted as a separate, well-formed request with DATED DIFFS. (I'm not even looking at undated diffs any more, there's been too many times where undated diffs from circa 1970 have been submitted as evidence at AE).  Sandstein  16:31, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with Sandstein. I think a warning (as laid by Sandstein) for both is appropriate--Cailil 00:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• @Cla68: Do you have anything useful to add or are you just trolling? You're very welcome to contribute if you'd like to present evidence or analysis of evidence against JzG. If that doesn't interest you, I suggest you withdraw your comment. Bear in mind that there is ample precedent for editors being sanctioned for disrupting this board. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Indeed.  Sandstein  16:31, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I couldn't tell you the last time I actually saw real enforcement of the decorum provisions. NW (Talk) 21:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

NW, it happens fairly regularly for comments made at AE. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Arthur Rubin

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

162.119.231.132 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:06, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun control#Discretionary sanctions :

Principles

• Neutral point of view

All Misplaced Pages articles must be written from a neutral point of view, with all relevant points of view represented in reasonable proportion to their importance and relevance to the subject-matter of the article. Undue weight should not be given to aspects that are peripheral to the topic. Original research and synthesized claims are prohibited. Use of a Misplaced Pages article for advocacy or promotion, either in favor of or against an individual, institution, or idea that is the subject of the article, is prohibited.

• Advocacy

Misplaced Pages articles should present a neutral view of their subject. Use of a Misplaced Pages article for advocacy or promotion is prohibited.

• Battleground conduct

Inflammatory accusations often perpetuate disputes, poison the well of existing discussions, and disrupt the editing atmosphere. Discussions should be held with a view toward reaching a solution that can gain a genuine consensus. Attempting to exhaust or drive off editors who disagree through hostile conduct, rather than through legitimate dispute-resolution methods pursued only when legitimately necessary, is destructive to the consensus process and is not acceptable.

• Making allegations against other editors

Claims of misconduct should be made with the goal of resolving the problem, not of impugning another editor's reputation.

• Recidivism

Editors who have already been sanctioned for disruptive behavior may be sanctioned more harshly for repeated instances of similar behaviors.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 19:42, 8 January 2015 Reverts to non-neutral version which contains unsourced original research
2. 19:32, 8 January 2015 Reverts to non-neutral version which contains unsourced original research
3. 15:35, 3 December 2014 Argues that a term is "pejorative" or "propaganda" based on his belief and insisting that no source is necessary because no one disputes it - that's a violation of all three core content policies: WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:NOR.
4. 15:31, 2 December 2014 Moves article from "Gun show loophole" to "Gun show loophole controversy", a less neutral title that implies it's only a controversy instead of a real issue, without any discussion.
5. 09:51, 19 November 2014 Reverts to non-neutral version which contains unsourced original research, and brushes aside concern about lack of source.
6. 06:28, 4 January 2015 Ditto
7. 03:51, 2 January 2015 Argues that a paper by epidemiologists at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center is de facto unreliable (despite admitting he never read it) supposedly because evaluating injury rates is probably outside their field of expertise.
8. 22:42, 2 January 2015 Ditto
9. 19:55, 8 January 2015 Accuses me of "POV pushing" - an attack on another editor with no effort to resolve a problem.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#Arthur_Rubin_topic-banned

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 19:59, 16 May 2014.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Arthur Rubin keeps violating principles from the ArbCom's Gun Control decision. As an administrator he knows the rules but as an editor he doesn't follow them. He advocates a position by labeling a widely held POV as "pejorative" "propaganda", in articles and on talk pages. He reverts articles to restore non-neutral text without sources, despite objections of many editors. He doesn't seek consensus or compromise. He uses talk pages to say he's right and other editors are wrong. He says sources for his own assertions are unnecessary because they are "facts" that can't be disputed, while he discounts expert sources as being unreliable. He smears me as a POV-pusher as a dismissive insult better suited to driving off an editor than to resolve any article problems. The demonstrable "fact" is that he's using Misplaced Pages to advance a political position with whatever editing tricks are necessary. That's just what the ArbCom and the community have said is unacceptable.

Maybe this is off-topic but gun control is one of the agenda items of the Tea Party movement, a topic where Arthur Rubin has already been sanctioned. During the Gun Control case, he argued that another user should be banned from articles about gun control because of that user's problems with editing Tea Party articles. Should he be held to the standard he sets for others? You decide. These repeated problems, with the Tea Party and with gun control, are examples of his recidivism - once again he's forcing through non-neutral edits about political issues in violation of Misplaced Pages policy.

It might be easy to toss this out as a content dispute, or give a fellow admin extra leeway. Doing that wouldn't stop Arthur Rubin from making more reverts of reasonable edits, more additions of unsourced POV or more unsupported accusations about other editors. Arthur Rubin is an editor who can't or won't edit in a neutral manner on issues related to gun control. That's obvious to anyone who reviews his work.

AE is the venue for enforcing the ArbCom's decision requiring editors in this topic to comply with site policies. This board should take appropriate action now to prevent the waste of many hours by many editors in the future. Inaction by AE probably means more battleground behavior to advance a cause, more one-sided editing of contentious topics, more antagonism to those who disagree, more defiance of the ArbCom and more violations of site policies.

Sorry if this isn't formatted or framed perfectly. Please fix any mistakes in this complaint. I've already devoted more time to this than I should have to, and I won't be able to edit again in the upcoming week.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

##16:04, 9 January 2015

Discussion concerning Arthur Rubin

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Arthur Rubin

First, gun control is not one of the issues related to the Tea Party. It is subject to discretionary sanctions, but no specific reversion sanctions, such as WP:1RR. "Gun control" is mentioned twice in Tea Party movement, but the Tea Party is not mentioned in any gun control article that I have noticed. Neither concept is considered important to the other. My previous block for violating the Tea Party sanctions was for an article related to the Koch brothers, which some consider related to the Tea Party.

In regard "pejorative" and WP:NPOV in gun show loophole controversy, the name "gun show loophole" clearly violates WP:NPOVTITLE, as it is only used by gun-control advocates. Unlike "Assault weapon", it is not a term-of-law, but only a term-of-propaganda. Adding "controversy" to the title is a minimal attempt at restoring WP:NPOV. Restoring "pejorative" to the first sentence is also an attempt to restore WP:NPOV; if one source, even an unreliable one, such as the Daily Kos article calls it "pejorative", and no source disagrees, it should be kept until a reliable source is found. There has been no claim made (other than by the complaining party) that his/her edits improve compliance to WP:NPOV on this article, or, in fact, any article other than American Hunters and Shooters Association. In terms of article improvement at gun show loophole controversy, a statement in the first sentence, similar to that in "assault weapon", that it is used to attempt to restrict firearm purchases, would balance even better than "pejorative". (I didn't bring that up on the talk page earlier because I hadn't read the article "assault weapon".)

The complaining party has (in recent times, anyway), only edited gun control articles, and, with at few exceptions, has edited to increase the credibility of gun control, and discussed only "improvements" which increase the credibility of gun control. Those exceptions are on American Hunters and Shooters Association, for which I complemented the editor for not being a POV-warrior there. See Special:Contributions/162.119.231.132. This history shows that it is a stable IP.

My recent edits to Talk:Gun politics in the United States probably are a violation; my only excuse is that EllenCT is a known accused in at least three ArbCom cases, and, in my opinion, correctly, of being a POV-warrior (finding of fact in two ArbCom cases), and that a 1993 paper which made the same conclusion, was fatally flawed, and recognized as such by most except gun control advocates. I shouldn't have done it. I'll try to stay away from Ellen unless I have specific facts to counter her opinions. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Changed reference to EllenCT; there are too many ArbCom cases in which Ellen was involved for me to be sure, but she was clearly acting as a POV-warrior in attempting to include a chart loosely related to wealth inequality on articles on income inequality, plutocracy, and other loosely related topics. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Ellen's claims that I am "stalking" her are completely unjustified. To the best of my knowledge, I never even looked at her contributions page. I decline comment as to whether her edits are likely within policy. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:43, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by EllenCT

There is no ArbCom finding of fact that I am a "POV-warrior", let alone in two cases. @Arthur Rubin: I demand that personal attack be struck. I have never been sanctioned by ArbCom or at ANI even though there are several people who have complained there about my insistence on adherence to reliable sources a handful of times over the years. The worst a closing admin has said about me at ANI is that the zeal with which I engage my opponents is cause for concern. But if it weren't for editors such as Arthur Rubin, who constantly stalks my contributions, often making up facts to suit his arguments, then I would be much less of a zealot. If Rubin is topic-banned from gun politics, then he has also been violating that ban at WP:NPOVN#Expert commentary on risks of living in a household with guns, where he has made up out of whole cloth reasons that WP:MEDRS sources on the risks of living in a household with guns are unacceptable for inclusion in the article where he says he probably violated his topic ban above, but has been unable to offer any sources which agree with his opinion. EllenCT (talk) 18:41, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

There have been no ArbCom findings of fact concerning me, and I strongly object to Rubin's revised statement which states that there have been. The only accusations that I am a "POV-warrior" are personal attacks from Rubin himself, based on ordinary content disputes in which Rubin is clearly unable to comport himself civilly. The fact that Rubin is unable to strike his own false allegations, along with his lengthy history of sanctions, shows that he lacks the competence expected of editors, let alone administrators. If any other administrator would like me to email the evidence showing that Rubin has been stalking my edits, please leave a note on my talk page. EllenCT (talk) 02:18, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Arthur Rubin

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

As submitted, this appears mostly not actionable because it mostly reflects content disputes. I don't also readily see any edit that might violate Arthur Rubin's Tea Party topic ban; the edits here are about gun control but not about the Tea Party. However, there are some points of concern. Even though I know next to nothing about the issue, Arthur Rubin's edits of 8 January 2015 which repeatedly changed the lead sentence of "assault weapon" to "... is a political term used by anti gun advocacy groups ..." strikes me as so distinctly partisan in tone that it might be considered a violation of the conduct aspect of WP:NPOV, which requires that "editors ... should strive in good faith ... not to promote one particular point of view over another". Also, as EllenCT points out, Arthur Rubin's unsubstantiated allegation here that ArbCom found her to be a "POV-warrior" is, at least, a violation of the "casting aspersions" principle enunciated repeatedly by the Committee in application of our WP:NPA policy. I invite comment by other admins about whether this suffices for a "gun control" topic ban in light of Arthur Rubin's previous sanctions in the similar "Tea Party" topic area.  Sandstein  20:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Sitush

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Sitush

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Smallbones (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:43, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Sitush (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions at GGTF :

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions_at_GGTF#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Jan 8 at the Gender Task Force talk page - which ArbCom has said that he's disrupted before - he insists that an article written by members of the task force is in poor shape, and that editors must respond to his complaints, or that he will escalate
2. Jan 9 Removed a sourced sentence (refs at end of paragraph) that essentailly summarizes the 3 sources.
3. Jan9 Removed a revised sourced sentence that exactly summarizes the 3 sources
4. Jan 9 Removed the same sourced sentence again, essentially threatening an edit war

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Date none that I know of
2. Date Explanation

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them

I'm only asking that Admins watch the article and talk pages to prevent any edit warring or similar bullying tactics. User:Sitush is aware that I'm here, he asked me to come here (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts):

• Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above. YES
• Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above. Don't know
• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on Date by Username (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Don't know
• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. Don't know
• Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date Don't know
• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
• Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Please just let him know that somebody is watching him

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

See above - he requested that I come here. I'll repeat immediately after saving here

Discussion concerning Sitush

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Sitush

I know that I am being watched. This is a content dispute and I am being as careful as possible to keep it on topic. My only mentions of this thing at WT:GGTF have been in direct relation to the fact that the article emerged from a discussion at GGTF and it is quite obvious to me that there is something going on here that amounts to freezing me out. Fortunately, some other people in good standing and with decent knowledge of policy etc are also recognising that.

The entire issue is really one for a variety of noticeboards - OR, NPOV, BLP, wherever coatracking should be taken, etc - and perhaps for a RfC unless it can be resolved on the talk page, where my valid concerns are largely being ignored. The very fact that Smallbones was quick to refer to the Arbcom case there, and then came here asking for very little, should indicate that this is a pretty spurious request. I could provide diffs but I suggest that people read the article talk page. I'm off to bed. - Sitush (talk) 02:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

@Johnuniq, the article is very slowly improving in parts. The discussion should be at the article but I've been forced to go to GGTF because much of it in fact is/was taking place there.

The article is not the property of GGTF even though it emanated from a discussion there. Since I was quite clearly being ignored at article talk, my comments at GGTF were intended to draw attention to the issues by using the very forum that the creator etc was using to draw attention to it, asking people to respond in what in fact should be the correct forum. You'll note that others contributed and agreed with me, with this one being quite notable. I'm well aware that I'm being gamed into this situation - OrangesRyellow, for example, has a long history of disliking me from Indo-Pak articles where their POV was also very evident, and a history of latching on to me when they think they can turn things against me - but if no-one actually objects to points that I raise then they cannot really complain if, three days later, I do something about it. I tried to discuss, others didn't; eg: here. What is likely to happen, and seemingly did in the specific case that you linked, is that I'll change something and I'll be gamed to the limit of 3RR by a group of other people. In the process, some changes to the wording or whatever will actually happen.

I've said that I will escalate the issues by if things do not improve further and I will do that, although right now I am not sure where the venue should be because the issues as of last night are many and varied. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts regarding an appropriate venue. Chess has suggested RfC but framing that neutrally might be difficult due to the wide range of issues.

None of the issues actually relate to GGTF itself and the admin action requested here is bizarre even if they were. - Sitush (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Johnuniq

It would be helpful if an admin would monitor WT:GGTF and articles which have been discussed there, such as Women's rights in 2014 (created on 2 January 2015). I have not noticed any commentary which is sanctionable, but in view of WP:ARBGGTF it would be desirable for warnings to be issued before the current low-level sniping gets out of hand. For example, there is no need for edit summaries like "oh, ffs, I thought that was smallbones - here comes the meat brigade, I guess" (diff). We are all volunteers, and people can choose which of the many problems at Misplaced Pages merit their attention, but there is no need for the enthusiasm seen at places like Talk:Women's rights in 2014 so soon after WP:ARBGGTF.

@Bishonen: I understand your instinct to protect Sitush, but you know there is a problem. If no one cares sufficiently to monitor the situation, we can wait until it blows up if you like. Johnuniq (talk) 05:21, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Chess

What did Sitush do? He proposed a removal of a sentence, waited a while, then removed it. Then somebody reverted him. Then he reverted that person back, because they did not address Sitush's argument. I'm not going to comment on what sentence is better oon AE, but quoting OrangesRyellow, "When Sitush is around, you will be treated to a constant barrage of frequent tirades, absurd accusations, ANIs, SPIs, etc. and the whole area comes to be seen as "problematic" because of those tirades, absurd accusations etc. The topic of this article is simple enough, but it will be madeproblematic, through polemics, etc. There is a reason why people chose to ignore". That isn't very civil, since if OrangesRyellow has a problem with Sitush's behaviour, maybe it should be taken up at the proper forum (quote by me:"If you have a problem with Sitush's behaviour, why don't you take it up at the proper forum? Such as WP:AN/I or possibly WP:AE." But then OrangesRyellow said in response, "Because I think I am better off doing more constructive things in my limited wiki-time". It's not very constructive to make those allegations in the first place in a debate on content, and I think OrangesRyellow should be made aware of that. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 17:35, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Sitush

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I'm not much of a regular at AE, but surely this kind of thing is not what it's for? To tell Sitush he's being watched? The instructions above are pretty clear: Please use this page only to request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a discretionary sanction imposed by an administrator. The remedies that were passed re Sitush was that a) he's warned not to create articles regarding editors he's in conflict with, and b) he's warned not to interact with Carolmooredc. He hasn't done any of those things as far as I know, and Smallbones hasn't said he did. No injunction was imposed on Sitush in the case, and no discretionary sanctions have since been imposed on him by an administrator.

For completeness, I don't think the idea of violating a "finding of fact" has been envisioned — it seems philosophically awkward — nor are findings of fact mentioned in the instructions for posting a report here. But just to make them accessible, here are links to the findings of fact against Sitush: and , so you can see whether you find them violable, or to have been violated in this case.

It seems frivolous to come here without requesting any admin action, and without claiming that any remedies, injunctions or discretionary sanctions have been violated. Again, Please use this page only to request administrative action etc. My bolding. Bishonen | talk 05:13, 10 January 2015 (UTC).

I think this is not actionable. Diff 1, a talk page comment, does not strike me as disruptive or sanctionable, particularly considering that the remedy reads: "The availability of sanctions is not intended to prevent free and candid discussion on these pages, but sanctions should be imposed if an editor severely or persistently disrupts the discussion." The remaining diffs are of edits to an article, Women's rights in 2014, that is not among the "pages relating to the Gender gap task force" and are therefore not within the scope of discretionary sanctions. This request can be closed without action.  Sandstein  15:39, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The article Women's rights in 2014 does *not* appear to fall under the discretionary sanctions of WP:ARBGGTF. However if Sitush's remarks on any GGTF project page violate policy then the sanctions do apply. At present I see no reason for enforcement here. Sitush might consider opening a WP:Request for comment on some of the disputed points. The article is likely to turn into a list of interesting things that happened in 2014 that newspaper editorial writers believe are connected to women's rights. Summarizing editorial opinion is always hard, but it is common for such opinions to be mentioned in Misplaced Pages articles when they are judged relevant. Editorial writers tend to use an uplifting style that may not tie closely to easily-observed facts. Deciding whether 2014 was or was not 'a watershed year for women's rights' can't be determined by any method known to science. So my suggestion to Sitush would be to take this article off his watchlist, to save frustration. If he does choose to continue he will be subject to the normal WP:Edit warring policy. EdJohnston (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)