Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Maunus (talk | contribs) at 22:07, 26 January 2015 (→Further discussion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 101, 102, 103

This page has archives. Sections older than 12 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

GodBlessYou2

GodBlessYou2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I just had to dramatically change or revert a number of this user's edits.

I'm afraid there is little regard for WP:FRINGE or other policies dealing with the promotion of pseudoscience and creationism. We may need to ask for arbitration enforcement if this behavior doesn't stop.

jps (talk) 18:02, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

JPS, I realize you have a POV that you want to see reflected in the above articles, but these articles are precisely about issues around which there is controversy and lack of consensus. Your opinion that they are "fringe" does not mean that they are not notable issues and that the sources cited are not reliable. The threat of "arbitration enforcement" is also out of place.

Regarding the Fermi paradox, Bernard Haisch is a clearly a notable author and astrophysicist. While I point to a particular article that he has self published See WP:SPS: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." I'm sure that others hold the same opinion and it is likely that a secondary source could be found, but that's not necessary and I don't have the time to pursue it. Instead of reducing material in the article, your efforts would be better spent adding a source in place of the Haisch post if you feel it is a better source. Actually, it's my understanding that he does not believe in UFO's but is, in this article, simply playing devil's advocate regarding why the claims of UFO sightings cannot be completely ruled out by the Fermi Paradox.

Regarding the Fine-tuned_Universe edit, I think it very rude of you to accuse me of "Creationist POV-pushing" simply because I add a cite to Haisch's "The Purpose-Guided Universe: Believing in Einstein, Darwin, and God," a book by a highly qualified astrophysist who, very pertinently, wrote his book to address the fine-tuned universe issue in a way that denies creationism yet argues for the existence of God. FYI, perhaps you disagree, but I consider the accusation of "creationism" to imply a belief in a literal interpretation of the Genesis and six day creation myth. I also think it's rude to call someone a creationist unless they describe themselves that way.

Regarding the God of the gaps edit you reverted, I did not even introduce new sources. I simply fixed two incomplete citations then corrected the sentences citing these sources to make them actually reflect what the sources were saying. If you believe I did not correctly summarize these sources, fix my summary, but do not revert to the badly summarized content. Don't you have something constructive to contribute? Why are you following me around to undue my contributions? Please assume good faith and try to work with other editors to build up articles rather than trim them down to some POV which best suits you. You are not the editor-in-chief or final arbiter of reliable sources. -GodBlessYou2 (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The Haisch source is fringey as fringe gets. SPS only applies if he were discussing his scientific work that had previously been published in a reliable third-party publication. Here he's giving an opinion on something that has nothing to do with his prior published scientific work, or scientific work at all for that matter. And the book you cite pretty much only shows up on creationist or fringe websites. I'm also not sure what you added it in to cite. Also, I have to note, we don't "build up" articles for the sake of doing it. They'd get prohibitively long and be filled with all types of undue cruft. Indeed, the opposite is true. Misplaced Pages has a POV and that's the POV expressed by mainstream reliable sources. Capeo (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The "controversy" and "lack of consensus" you are claiming exist are themselves WP:FRINGE claims that are promulgated, mostly, by religious believers, ufologists, and pseudoscientists. Your edits seek to promote these fringe viewpoints as being equally footed (e.g. your appeal to Haisch as a "highly qualified astrophysist". Be aware that we are intimately familiar with Haisch and his claims at this website: Talk:Bernard Haisch#Some background: Three sections from Paul_August's talk page). Trying to claim some level of mainstream acceptance for these ideas is exactly the problem with your edits. jps (talk) 19:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I reverted a contribution https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Creation%E2%80%93evolution_controversy&diff=639953971&oldid=639951952 by this editor that should be taken into account if discretionary sanctions are on the menu. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 21:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

They used Expelled as a factual source? Yeah, not good. Capeo (talk) 22:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The bigger problem was that he consumed a great deal of editor time at Talk:Creation-evolution controversy, had a major case of WP:IDHT, and appears to be incapable or unwilling to understand, never mind abide by our policies because of their zealous ideological stance. If he/she is continuing his disruptive behavior on other articles, then it's clear that WP:NOTHERE and WP:CIR apply. Maybe a discretionary indef would save both us and him/her a world of anguish. I just don't see a ray of hope here based on their interactions with other editors at the talk page on Creation-evolution controversy. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I see. I wasn't aware there was prior history involved. I only came to notice their recent edits from checking out the FTN yesterday. Maybe a creationism/evolution TB might do the trick? Capeo (talk) 23:02, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

That would be a good start. It's worth considering. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The references recently added to Stephen Barr look rather dodgy and coatracky. Certainly, if a scientist has notable fringe views, these should be discussed, sourced to independent sources with weight as appropriate. But also the subject's scientific work should remain the focus of the article. Sławomir Biały (talk) 00:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Honestly I don't even see how Barr meets any notability claims. He hasn't published a significant scientific paper since the 80s and his work amounted to nothing. Today searches bring up nothing but religious and fringe websites at best where he gives an interview. His books are limited print with no notable reviews. And I know Google hits aren't a good argument for inclusion but that's when we're debating tens of thousands of hits. Barr doesn't even seem to have a single page to himself before random Stephen Barrs start popping up completely unrelated to the subject of the article. Is this person notable? Capeo (talk) 00:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Barr's work on grand unified models is extremely well-known. He passes WP:PROF#C1, with 30 scientific papers cited more than one hundred times on Google scholar, and WP:PROF#C3 as a fellow of the American Physical Society. So he is notable as an academic. I don't know what the appropriate weight is to assign his personal views on religion, but I suspect it is not much. In particular, I object most strongly to the recently-added "references" at the article. They portray the subject in a false light, as a crackpot, and arguably violate WP:BLP and other guidelines. Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

If the criteria is that lax than I guess it is what it is. But given that criteria there should tens of thousands of articles on just about anyone who has published. #3 is particularly lax. Here's the list of fellows added to the APS just in 2014: http://www.aps.org/programs/honors/fellowships/archive-all.cfm

Pick anyone on that list and plug them into google scholar. Out five I tried four of them were cited more than Barr though they, rightfully I'd say, don't have articles here. I'm having a hard time finding a paper of his that has been cited in the last 20 years and most cites are much, much older than that. As for his personal views on religion? Today at least, that's by far what he's best know for. He's written a book on the subject, given interviews and even has a substantial section about it on the front page of his personal website. I'd think those views should get at least some weight in his article. Capeo (talk) 18:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Notability isn't temporary. I'm sure you'd have a tough time finding articles authored by Albert Einstein in the last 20 years too :-) But there is no serious debate that he passes the guideline for scientists. He has written an impressive number of papers cited in the hundreds. Presumably, that is a high citation area, but even so he clearly passes C1. However, unless he is specifically notable for his views on religion, the article's very existence relies on WP:PROF, so it seems to me that it would be more in keeping with that guideline to emphasize his role as a scientist rather than a Christian apologist. But I don't really know what the relevant guideline is for such things. Sławomir Biały (talk) 19:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

And now, forum shopping. Ugh. jps (talk) 15:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

And the refusal to accept a consensus clearly and unambiguously established in the recent RfC at at Talk:Creation–evolution controversy continues. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Enough is enough. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#GodBlessYou2. jps (talk) 17:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

More forum shopping ... the guy simply WP:DONTGETIT and won't drop the WP:STICK. WegianWarrior (talk) 12:28, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Really wish you hadn't done that -- this had someone politely (if a bit much) going up dispute resolution processes to RFC and instead of getting external input to the question it aborted into rewarding the approach of snarking responses about toilets and holocaust and then banning the poster. Winds up nothing produced at the article or RFC conduct that could be held up as admirable. Now seems a shameful #fail at WP:RFC, WP:CENSOR, WP:SHOOT, and effectively exemption for some on WP:POLITE, WP:SOAPBOX, and WP:OUTOFSCOPE. I will see what I can do. Markbassett (talk) 17:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Rex 84

Rex 84 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The only sources I can find for this are in fringe sources concerned that the government out to control us. Are there any reliable sources that discuss it? Thoughts? Thanks! - Location (talk) 01:58, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I would very much support an AfD on this. BlueSalix (talk) 13:40, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

We discussed this some years back to no particular conclusion. Mangoe (talk) 17:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

RfC notification

Current text in the lede is: TCM is described as "largely just pseudoscience, with no rational mechanism of action for most of its therapies." Some editors think it is inappropriate to suggest that Traditional Chinese medicine is pseudoscience. There was a previous DR. See Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_92#Traditional_Chinese_medicine.

Hello everyone, there is an RFC that editors from this noticeboard may be interested in commenting on: Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#RfC: Is the Nature article an appropriate source for the claim it is attached to?. I added a quote instead of the previous text and I proposed on the talk page if the quote is still not satisfactory it can be rewritten. Thank you for your feedback. QuackGuru (talk) 02:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for this notice.--LarEvee (talk) 17:56, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

User:LarEvee, please read the specific question for the RFC. Please note that this is not a discussion of whether TCM is pseudoscience, whether the source meets WP:MEDRS, or anything else like that; the question is whether the article even says what it is being used to say. QuackGuru (talk) 18:52, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Near-death studies

Near-death studies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The proposal of this article is that "near-death studies" as promoted by IANDS is an academic discipline in the same way that, say, reincarnation research may have been so considered in the past. I think this is way oversold and rather unbalanced. In fact, I think that the claim that there is an academic "discipline" should be handled under the parapsychology umbrella in the same way we handled reincarnation research. Redirect to Near-death experience#Near-death studies might work well. Thoughts?

jps (talk) 20:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Without having time to look at any of this, the balance point to me is, are there enough reliable sources to make 'near death studies' an actual article, regardless of its categorization? And then link it into the appropriate other articles (such as the suggestion by jps. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Near-death studies is a name for a field of Psychology, Psychiatry and Neuroscience. According to Bruce Greyson, MD, Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, University of Connecticut Health Center, Psychiatry, vol. 56, November 1993: It is of interest to mental health professionals because these experiences produce widespread and long—lasting changes in values, beliefs, and behavior that dramatically affect the experiencers' attitudes toward living and dying.

It is about what the patient under care claims to experience for the purpose of treatment. While scientists clearly have a hard time containing their curiosity the primary purpose of the studies arises from an interest in what happens if the patent doesn't die. (As oppose to Parapsychology that is interested in what happens after death)

Our job is not to ignorantly second guess the merit of scientific investigation but to establish if such research happened and if the field of study received enough coverage. After doing so we should consider if there is value in having a separate scientific context besides from the pop culture, the level of content replication and how big the articles are. Ignorantly blending science with pop-culture is a terrible idea but given the terrible state of the article it is an understandable mistake. You probably thought the scientists are looking for god or something like that.

There are sufficient sources to satisfy notability of the scientific field. Notability extends infinitely far into the afterlife: If it ever was a notable field it will be notable forever. If the field is abandoned doesn't mean we should delete the article. This same mistake is indeed to be found in : Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Reincarnation_research_(2nd_nomination) That topic unquestionably has been subjected to serious research by researchers with respectable academic posts. In this AfD we also get to see the POV fork fallacy repeated: WP:POV fork: Since what qualifies as a "POV fork" can itself be based on a POV judgement, it may be best not to refer to the fork as "POV" except for in extreme cases of persistent disruptive editing.

For a scientific article, beyond establishing notability, we want scientific sources from proponents and deniers alike. I can see how the Skeptic dictionary editors don't like that idea, they want to use ignorant blog postings that fit their already made up believe system, not scientific objectivity. Clearly what we have here is editing to advance a specific view.

Thanks for your time,

P.S. Kindly restrain yourself from subscribing me to any of these unscientific believe systems and/or considering me a proponent of any of this. 84.106.11.117 (talk) 00:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Lee Carroll

See Dougweller (talk) 08:55, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

See what? 84.106.11.117 (talk) 01:47, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Well cited criticism being removed. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:05, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I can see that but why is it here? Why cant you/Dough just restore it and use the talk pages? At the top of the noticeboard I read: "This page is for requesting input on possible fringe theories. Post here to seek advice on whether a particular topic is fringe or mainstream, or whether undue weight is being given to fringe theories." The contribution seems wrong enough not to merit a discussion here. What part am I missing? 84.106.11.117 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Just hoping for more eyes. I don't really have a lot of time for editing and am gradually removing most articles from my watchlist. Dougweller (talk) 13:47, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Potential revision to Template:Fringe theories?

Has anyone ever considered altering the above template in such a way as to allow it to not use the words "fringe theories" in the template as it appears, but rather the phrase "minority theories"? There is currently discussion about the definition of "fringe theories" here at Christ myth theory, where some individuals are advocating, I think not necessarily wholly unreasonably, that the "minority" theory that Jesus never existed might not qualify as a "fringe theory" the way that phrase is ordinarily used in everyday speech. Given the somewhat perjorative nature of the term fringe theory in a lot of circles, I can see potentially other instances in which the latter phrasing might be more reasonable than the former. Any ideas? John Carter (talk) 21:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

If something is truly a minority theory, isn't that different than fringe? Over at WP:WEIGHT there are three bullet points. I was always under the assumption that the third bullet point was in essence our definition of what fringe material is. It seems like the folks in your example are claiming it's the second bullet point. If that's the case, I'm afraid changing the phrase to minority theory would only confuse that matter since it would categorize a wider array of things as fringe material. I think it'd probably be better to point folks to the distinction between fringe and minority views instead. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Kingoffaces, a minority view is substantially different than a fringe one. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Targeted Individual

Article and deletion discussion relevant to this noticeboard: Targeted Individual (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Targeted Individual (2nd nomination) Kolbasz (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

This is not a fringe article, either it can be sourced and written properly or sources are insufficent and it should be deleted. 84.106.11.117 (talk) 19:35, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Jesus the Man (book)

Fringe, POV, and OR edits. Dougweller (talk) 19:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

New category for Hyperdiffusionism in archaeology suggested

See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Archaeology#Should we create a new category for articles relating to Hyperdiffusionism in archaeology? Dougweller (talk) 15:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The category seems at least justifiable (where it is used properly - which will mean according to cited sources). The Hyperdiffusionism in archaeology article clearly needs work though. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Felix Moncla

Lack of good sources and probably biased towards UFOlogy. Leave alone or nominate for deletion? Geogene (talk) 02:22, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Electronic harassment

Eyes may be needed on the Electronic harassment article - a contributor has been adding the same fringe-conspiracy-theory-promoting nonsense that was previously in the now-deleted Targeted Individual article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I personally would retain something of the "media" section (though not in its current proxy-for-inclusion form) and something like the last paragraph of the lead. Mangoe (talk) 17:45, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Soft tissue creationism

It seems there are some creationists who think that soft-tissue preservation is their ace in the hole for supporting Young-Earth creationism. I just did this revert because it seems to me that since Ken Ham has supported a huge number of peculiar reinterpretations of mainstream ideas highlighting just soft-tissue is the bugbear WP:COATRACK of this particular creationist editor. YMMV.

jps (talk) 15:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Note also this section. jps (talk) 15:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

The better solution is to simply avoid letting that section turn into Creationism arguments/debates by proxy. As a BLP, Ham is the article's focus, hence it is sufficient to say "Ham believes X" in a non-argumentative fashion, give the cites that support it, and not make it the issue whether or not X is true. I'll make an edit to remove that sentence accordingly, then we'll see if editors insist on forcing the debate back in. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:21, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Nice change jps. Azurecitizen, it is correct that it would still sound like a coatrack as it is still going to provide extra push it doesn't deserve. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, AzureCitizen. There's a little pushback, but I'm not convinced we have any authoritative secondary sources which describe precisely how Ken Ham does his thing. Perhaps Ronald Numbers' book could work, but I don't think he goes into enough detail. There's also the interesting story of how AiG and CMI split over personality differences. Well... maybe the sleeping dogs can be let lying. jps (talk) 14:51, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Hypothesis/Theory as fact

Original question

Should we regard Indo-Aryan Migration theory (IAMt) as a historical fact? In terms of making references to it, or using the hypothesis as the actuality for generalizing the historical events.

Misplaced Pages:FRINGE says "Peer review is an important feature of reliable sources that discuss scientific, historical or other academic ideas, but it is not the same as acceptance by the scientific community. It is important that original hypotheses that have gone through peer review do not get presented in Misplaced Pages as representing scientific consensus or fact."

In recent months, a lot of content from the main page of the hypothesis has been forked into pages like Hinduism, Vedic Period, Historical Vedic Religion by a particular user, previously they had not even mentioned. While it had received acceptance as a possibility, it is heavily debated and remains controversial as the proposed similarities of various cultures are based on linguistics and these issues are not yet settled. And it is contradictory to multiple scientific(DNA) researches,- that even questioned the existence of 'Aryans'. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

This is not really an issue for this board, at least not in the way Bladesmulti seems to think it is. IAMt is not remotrely a fringe theory, and of course it should be central to discussion of the Vedic religion. This issue arises because user:Joshua Jonathan has been trying to improve these articles, which are magnets for Hindutva cruft. I have a busy schedule at the moment, so can't help in keeping this issue focussed on scholarship, rather than being held hostage to ridiculous ideological/nationalist agendas. So more eyes are certainly needed. Bladesmulti's last sentence indicates his utter incomprehenion of the issue. The existence of "Aryan" DNA as a biological entity is as irrelevant to the issue as the existence of "Latin" DNA in France or Romania. Paul B (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

You don't know but this board is not just for fringe theories, but anything that is contradicting the fringe policy. Kurgan Hypothesis was discussed here before, which is related with this. If the reliable citation says that there is no DNA evidence, that is what we have to mention. Another problem is that if these hypothesis should be posed as real when they are not yet established and contradicts to scientific researches. If you compare the version before January 2014 to the current one, you mostly find the one sided explanation to have been repeated and much of the refutation being removed. We should rather point the contradiction. Plus it is already being denied I don't see any professing since the last DNA research(from 2011). Did you? Bladesmulti (talk) 13:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh my, Blades, please state the question in a proper way. As you've stated it now, there's only one answer: yes, the IAMt is a historical fact. The theory exists.

What you are trying to say is that the migration of the Indo-Aryan people, cq. the spread and diffusion of the Indo-European languages and culture, is not a "fact", but a theoretical assumption. Dù...

Your reference to WP:FRINGE completely misses the point yu want to make, but underscores the opposite: the IAMT, c.q. Indo-European Migration theory (IEMt) does represent the scientific consensus. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

But you still haven't named even a single scientist who claims it to be scientific? It is not actually historic because it is based on linguistic similarities that are usually debunked and have no factual basis. See Pseudoscientific language comparison. Thus your explanation has nothing to with the above question that still remains unanswered. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

All historical linguists agree on this. There is no debate about this in the science of historical linguistic. The genealogical unity of the indo-European languages - including the Indo-Aryan languages is a basic and foundational assumption of the entire field of historical linguistics and therefore noone has to argue about its status in the literature. It would be akin to astronomers arguing about whether the earth is flat, or biologists arguing about divine creation. It is simply outside of the realm of that which can reasonably be doubted given the available evidence.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

He did. Mallory, Witzel and Jamison are all trained in linguistics and use it as part of their general work. Are you claiming that all linguists are "pseudo-scientific?" Kautilya3 (talk) 18:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

A share of proposed linguistic similarities does not require human migration. Mallory himself says that the languages may have spread under the conditions of friendly trade. For proving actual human migration, there is a need of other scientific evidence like DNA, archaeology, etc. and it is lacking. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. You are misrepresenting what Mallory says. Trade is a form of migration, what he is saying that it need not have been a military invasion. A migration of speakers is an absolute requirement for explaining the linguistic history. There is no need for any other evidence to establish that. And yet there is ample evidence of influx of genes, cultural artefacts and people into the subcontinent.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Restatement

So, if we restate your question:

1. Is the the IAMT, c.q. IEMt, a scientific theory which is accepted by the scientific community?

2. Is the "Indigenous Aryans theory" WP:FRINGE? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

None of them are accepted by the scientific community. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

To answer your questions:

1. Mallory & Adams (2006), The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World:

"Currently, there are two types of models that enjoy signifiant international currency (Map 26.1)." (p.460)

"There is the Neolithic model that involves a wave of advance from Anatolia c. 7000 bc and, at least for south-eastern and central Europe, argues primarily for the importation of a new language by an ever growing population of farmers." (p.460)

"Alternatively, there is the steppe or kurgan model which sees the Proto-IndoEuropeans emerging out of local communities in the forest-steppe of the Ukraine and south Russia. Expansion westwards is initiated c. 4000 bc by the spread from the forest-steppe of mobile communities who employed the horse and, within the same millennium, wheeled vehicles." (p.461)

Clear answer: the the IAMT, c.q. IEMt, is a scientific theory which is generally accepted, while the "Indigenous Aryans" theory is not even being mentioned.Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

That book is outdated in the sense that it was written before the decline of the Indo Aryan Migration hypothesis, it is not discussing any scientific data.

I am not getting that why you are even copying this irrelevant quote for misinterpreting its status as scientific. We have already discussed it on the talk page, haven't we? Bladesmulti (talk) 16:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

You are quite mistaken, Bladesmulti. The Mallory and Adams book is the current most accurate survey of the IEMt. It is completely and totally scientific and accepted by all competent Indo-European scholars. There is no qualified dissent from its findings or discussion. For example, Benjamin W. Fortson IV, Indo-European Language and Culture, An Introduction, Second edition (2010, Wiley-Blackwell); David W. Anthony, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2007, Princeton); George Cardona & Dhanesh Jain, "General Introduction," The Indo-Aryan Languages (2003, Routledge, pp. 1-45). The claim that the IAMt is false is simply not supported by linguistic fact. This is not a "theory" any more than gravity is a "theory". --Taivo (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

2. Michael Witzel, Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University:

"The 'revisionist project' certainly is not guided by the principles of critical theory but takes, time and again, recourse to pre-enlightenment beliefs in the authority of traditional religious texts such as the Purånas. In the end, it belongs, as has been pointed out earlier, to a different 'discourse' than that of historical and critical scholarship. In other words, it continues the writing of religious literature, under a contemporary, outwardly 'scientific' guise The revisionist and autochthonous project, then, should not be regarded as scholarly in the usual post-enlightenment sense of the word, but as an apologetic, ultimately religious undertaking aiming at proving the 'truth' of traditional texts and beliefs. Worse, it is, in many cases, not even scholastic scholarship at all but a political undertaking aiming at 'rewriting' history out of national pride or for the purpose of 'nation building'." (Witzel, Michael (2001), "Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts" (PDF), Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 7-3 (EJVS) 2001(1-115)) Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Who asked for this irrelevant quote?

We are talking about why we should give weight to a hypothesis, often defunct. Which is violation of policy on fringe. Witzel is not a scientist. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

And in her review of Bryant's "The Indo-Aryan Controversy" Stephanie Jamison, Professor, Department of Asian Languages & Cultures, comments:

"...the parallels between the Intelligent Design issue and the Indo-Aryan "controversy" are distressingly close. The Indo-Aryan controversy is a manufactured one with a non-scholarly agenda, and the tactics of its manufacturers are very close to those of the ID proponents mentioned above. However unwittingly and however high their aims, the two editors have sought to put a gloss of intellectual legitimacy, with a sense that real scientific questions are being debated, on what is essentially a religio-nationalistic attack on a scholarly consensus." (Jamison, Stephanie W. (2006). "The Indo-Aryan controversy: Evidence and inference in Indian history (Book review)" (PDF). Journal of Indo-European Studies. 34: 255–261.)

Also a clear answer: the "Indigenous Aryans" theory is fringe.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Just like the Indo-Aryan Migration hypothesis as none of them have any scientific status. Above author has no status in scientific field. Just throwing the word 'science' anywhere doesn't make the pointed object any scientific. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

You very clearly have no clue about what science mean or what it means for a theory to have scientific status.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:35, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Some theories are so widely accepted that they have the status as the kind of provisional facts that scientists work with as basic assumptions. The "Indo-Aryan migration theory", which simply means that Indo-European languages originated outside of india, is one of those facts. There are two main contenders for the history of the I-E languages, the Kurgan and the Anatolian hypotheses. Neither of them is compatible with an account that sees IE as having originated within the Indian subcontinent. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Blades, this statement "Above author has no status in scientific field" is ridiculous. Totally, complete bullshit. Open your eyes and read again, very slowly:

• Michael Witzel, Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University (;
• Stephanie Jamison, Professor, Department of Asian Languages & Cultures;
• J.p Mallory, emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies;
• Douglas Quentin Adams, professor of English at the University of Idaho.

If professors don't have status in the academic field, not even Harvard professors, then who does? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

We don't determine the validity of a hypothesis by the "status" of a professor. A professor at any level can push garabage under an appeal to authority that way. That is instead determined by acceptance of the idea by others in the field in the peer-reviewed literature. When you summarize the literature reviews in the field, what do they say? Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

They do not even mention the possibility that Indo-Aryan languages could have originated within the subcontinent. It is a non-starter.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

"We don't determine the validity of a hypothesis by the 'status' of a professor". Umm, yes we do. That's exactly what we do. Misplaced Pages works by 'appeal to authority'. That the whole point of WP:RS and WP:OR. We don't argue the ins and outs of arguments for or against a theory. We assess the views of authorities. As for you request for a "literature review", this is not really a typical feature of the relevant scholarly fields. Paul B (talk) 21:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

See above and below: accepted mainstream theory (the Indo-European Migration theory/Indo-Aryan Migration theory, not the socalled"Out of India theory", which is fringe). Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:40, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I asked because nothing is really jumping out at me from the few sources mentioned here. Some don't appear to be peer-reviewed (so they can say pretty much whatever they want), and book reviews aren't too reliable for assessing scientific consensus. WP:RS/AC is pretty clear that we need clear statements of consensus from strong sources, and I'm not really seeing that from my quick glance. That's why I'm asking what reliable secondary sources actually say for and against the idea if at all (and that's for everyone involved here). Without that, we can't determine if the view is mainstream, a minority view, or fringe. If each source could be put in a list here or at the talk page with just one sentence or two for the main conclusion it's drawing, we could at least start trying to figure out where the weight lies. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Danesh Jain, George Cardona. 2007. The Indo-Aryan Languages. Routledge, Chapter 1. General Introduction (discusses the debate of the Indic homeland and sides with mainstream migrationist view)
• Benjamin W. Fortson, IV. 2011. Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction. John Wiley & Sons, p. 206 (states invasion as simple fact, mentions no other view)
• J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams. 1997. Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. p. 306. Taylor & Francis. Assumes as fact that proto-Indic was on the iranian plateau and moved from there into the subcontinent.

Further discussion

I'm not knowledgeable in this area at all, but just looking at Historical_Vedic_religion, whatever the truth or other wise of the hypothesis, the long section on the origins of the Vedic religion seems out of place. After all what evidence could their be of their religion clear enough to be relevant to the article? Also - a good way to get a first idea about something like this is to look at other encyclopedias to see how they treat it. So Encyclopedia Britannica for instance clearly states it as a largely discredited hypothesis, see http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37468/Aryan

"However, since the late 20th century, a growing number of scholars have rejected both the Aryan invasion hypothesis and the use of the term Aryan as a racial designation, suggesting that the Sanskrit term arya (“noble” or “distinguished”), the linguistic root of the word, was actually a social rather than an ethnic epithet. Rather, the term is used strictly in a linguistic sense, in recognition of the influence that the language of the ancient northern migrants had on the development of the Indo-European languages of South Asia. In the 19th century the term was used as a synonym for “Indo-European” and also, more restrictively, to refer to the Indo-Iranian languages. It is now used in linguistics only in the sense of the term Indo-Aryan languages, a branch of the larger Indo-European language family."

That's markedly different in tone from the current article, which would seem to suggest that it is promoting a fringe hypothesis. It might be an idea to search for other more specialist encyclopedias to see how they treat the hypothesis and what weight they put on it. Also the previous version of the article was similar in tone to the Encyclopedia Britannica entry, and had been worked on by many editors - so again as a meta observation that would seem to support the suggestion that it should be treated as fringe, marked as such, and not stated as fact in other articles. As for origin of the languages - it is surely a separate question. Otherwise you'd conclude that large parts of the world population migrated to their present location from the UK because they speak English, when that's only true of some of the places where English is spoken as the main language. Hope these observations help in some way! Robert Walker (talk) 19:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Robert, two things: it's about the "Indo-Aryan Migration theory", not the "Aryan Invasion theory". You don't know indeed what you're talking about. And two: I already told you three times today to stop harassing me diff diff diff; one more time, and you're back at ANI. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:21, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

@Robertinventor: I am not sure I understand what you are saying. There is no mention of "invasion" or "race" in our Historical Vedic religion. So, what discredited ideas are we using? As for the question of what evidence there is of their religion, we have texts, most notably the Rig Veda, which has extremely detailed information about their religion. None of this is controversial.

The only debate at the moment is as to whether these "aryans", i.e., Indo-European speakers, were indigenous or came from the outside. Our User:Bladesmulti here contends that there is no evidence that they came from the outside. The fact that they spoke an Indo-European language that was current in other parts of Eurasia isn't good enough for him. So, your input on this linguistic issue would be useful. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh not doubting the ancient origins of the Vedas, hope that's clear! But - does the question of origin help to understand how the Vedas developed? As I said, linguistic origin is clearly a separate question from whether a migration occurred, as migration is just one of several ways languages can spread. For complexity of the processes see The Different Modes of Language Spread Robert Walker (talk) 19:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

No, migration is ALWAYS involved in language spread and shift. Languages cannot travel without people. But there are different kinds of migrations that correlate with different kinds of spread and different timescales and social outcomes.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Try reading the article - The Different Modes of Language Spread he gives several examples where languages spread with only a small number of individuals who migrated. Indeed, some of his examples, there was no physical movement of people at all, it just spread to the culture from trading partners

"Yet the indigenes held on in a number of rugged areas, particularly those characterized by heavy, year-round rainfall, such as the Sierra Madre Mountains of eastern Luzon** (in the winter dry season, the Sierra Madre catches rain from trade winds forced up-slope). From such redoubts, however, the indigenous foragers interacted extensively with their Austronesian neighbors, exchanging rain-forest products for agricultural and manufactured goods. Eventually, the languages of their trading partners fully “diffused” across their societies and then began to evolve in their own directions. Today, the several surviving “Negrito languages” are much more closely related to the languages of their neighbors than they are to each other."

These examples (the Negritos, the Pygmies, the Aslians, etc.) are all examples of relic populations that have been pushed (or originated) in marginal habitats and who adapted their language for purposes of survival. In no case are these examples of a large, vibrant population being linguistically overwhelmed by a small minority without some type of military invasion by a substantial number of invaders. When a large population is linguistically subsumed, it is always by force and always by significant numbers of invaders. --Taivo (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh he gives an example of that also: "The Magyars, on the other hand, were able to firmly establish their language, which is spoken today by roughly 15 million people, even though the Magyars themselves were a relatively small group, substantially outnumbered by the peoples that they dominated.". Also trade is powerful too. It was a major reason for the spread of the Phoenician alphabet for instance: Spread of the Phoenician alphabet and its social effects - that's mainly because they were such great traders, not invaders. So can be many reasons, not just military. I don't know what are the preferred hypotheses here - but just saying that generally you can't deduce a huge amount from the spread of a language, as I understand it, unless you know how it spread. Robert Walker (talk) 21:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but that is wrong. Linguists can deduce a lot from the spread of the language, for example they can achieve a good idea about how it spread. In fact in the absence of written historical sources there is no other way to find out how language spread. And no, it is not always military and noone is claiming that it is. That is not what this is about. This is about the fact that all linguists who are not religiously invested in a fringe hypothesis agree that Indo-Aryan languages originated outside of India and arrived there by migrations. the question of whether this was a military invasion or not is entirely irrelevant and wading around in it muddles the discussion.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Our page doesn't say that the Vedas were imported from the outside. Heaven forbid! We would get nailed to the wall if we said anything like that. However, historians know that some aspects of this religion: animal sacrifice, fire worship etc., must have existed prior to their arrival in India because they also show up in other regions: Iran and Greece etc. The same kind of comparative method used in linguistics is also being used to reconstruct the religion, literary traditions etc. of the ancestors, but all that is still in infancy. Kautilya3 (talk) 20:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay perhaps that needs to be made clearer -that long origins section seems like it is intended to explain the origins of the Vedas to a casual newbie reader. It doesn't make too clear what aspects of the previous religions are thought to be relevant to the Vedas, maybe if that was explained it would be clearer. I'm referring to Historical_Vedic_religion#Origins and for instaqnce "The Vedic beliefs and practices of the pre-classical era were closely related to the hypothesised Proto-Indo-European religion, and the Indo-Iranian religion. According to Anthony, the Old Indic religion probably emerged among Indo-European immigrants in the contact zone between the Zeravshan River (present-day Uzbekistan) and (present-day) Iran". Which would seem to suggest the Vedas came from Iran at a first read. And if that's not what it is about - why give so much space in this article to this discussion? Robert Walker (talk) 21:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

In fact the Britannica is absolutely clear and unequivocal about this: "Vedic religion, also called Vedism, the religion of the ancient Indo-European-speaking peoples who entered India about 1500 bce from the region of present-day Iran" You are really just demonstrating that you don't know what the "fringe hypothesis" actually is. You are confusing the idea of an "invasion" of "Aryans" (hence 'use of the term Aryan as a racial designation') with the largely accepted view that Vedic culture evolved from an earlier Indo-European religion as a result of the expansion and migration of early I-E peoples. There's nothing remotely fringe about that. You are just sowing confusion and adding to muddle created by the confused comments here of Blademulti. Paul B (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Generally whenever one feels the need to preface a statement with "I am not knowledgeable about this area" that would be a cause for reconsidering the urge to participate in a complex discussion about that specific topic.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

FYI:Discussion of Robertinventor´s use of talk pages. Robert is collecting reasons to propose a topic-ban. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

It's on the disambiguation page for Aryan invasion theory so - it's an understandable mistake I hope? Never said I was expert on this, and trying to help. If that section of Enc. Brit. is not relevant, how about finding another similar encyclopedia entry, to help clarify this, maybe in a more specialized encyclopedia on religion, whether it is regarded as a fringe theory? You get many professors and some of them have fringe theories and being a Harvard professor doesn't mean that you can't also publish fringe theories from time to time, so I think arguments like that are unlikely to settle the debate by themselves. Just a thought. If what I say is not helpful, I just offer my apologies to you all! Robert Walker (talk) 19:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

2007 Alderney UFO sighting

2007 Alderney UFO sighting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

So this is an interesting article in part because there is absolutely no discussion of the two possible alternatives: high altitude weather balloons on the horizon or lenticular clouds. The flight path's orientation in roughly the direction of the sun is a telling one. However, the dearth of credulous sources about this case makes me wonder how to edit it. Help?

jps (talk) 15:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution