Misplaced Pages

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User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch

User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Against the spirit of wikipedia, A place that excludes editors based on anything violates the idea of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. By all means create a place for woman but it is against the spirit to say "only this type of editor can join" RetΔrtist (разговор) 00:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. For the time being, it serves as an experiment based on a discussion at the Wikimedia IdeaLab re a space for women, similar to spaces used on other projects (other languages). This subspace in my user space does not prevent any editor from editing in any space beside this subspace. I am replying from my phone and will return when I am next at my desk. Lightbreather (talk) 01:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

@Lightbreather: That discussion was, first of all, at meta, so any consensus found there does not apply here. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose An analogy suggested at the idealab, which may be flawed in general but valid in userspace, was that a women-only discussion forum would be like a table at a cafe, where a group of women are seated, talking. The claim was that a man shouldn't necessarily expect to be free to draw up a chair and join the group, as the group has a reasonable expectation of privacy unless they invite someone to join. In the context of the idealab discussion I had doubts about this reasoning because it seemed to me a discussion forum on an open wiki has no such expectation of privacy, however a page in a user's userspace does seem to have the right, at owner's option, to an expectation of privacy similar to that of a table at a cafe: those talking at the table should expect to be overheard, but might limit who is allowed to join the discussion.

  For those who prefer citation of policy, here's a relevant passage from WP:User pages#Ownership and editing of user pages: "Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred." Lightbreather has been polite about the experiment (not even, I believe, even removing comments considered out-of-place but merely moving them to a different page), so imho civility and AGF are satisfied as well, and I don't think the wider Wikipedian community should object. --Pi zero (talk) 03:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

To counter on the terms of your analogy, I'd like to say that you have no right to force the cafe to provide you with a table. And also, a cafe is for the consumption of food and beverages, as well as discussion. An appropriate analogy, would be a chess cafe, a place where people come to play chess amongst each other at the tables. If people at the table are discussing backgammon, while not actually playing chess, the owner might ask them to leave, and ask them to go to a backgammon cafe, a place more appropriate for discussion of backgammon. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

@Pi zero: And also, to quote WP:User pages, it says that "if the community lets you know that they would rather you delete some content from your user space, you should consider doing so - such content is only permitted with the consent of the community." Policy does not specifically prevent removal of user talk page comments, but community consensus holds ultimate judgement over userspace. The community can come to a consensus for whatever reason it wants to on whether to delete this user page, as long as the consensus doesn't violate any other policies. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:42, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure the wider community could, but seems to me it's being done civilly, appears it's being done in good faith (I don't think this appearance even requires assuming good faith), and since it's in userspace, I'd think private conversations would be more usual to allow than to disallow, so that it's not against the spirit of Misplaced Pages to allow it. Hence, as I said, I don't think the wider community should object. (It's not even the content being objected to, but rather the conversants.) ---Pi zero (talk) 03:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and to reiterate another point, afaik the material wasn't even removed as such, just moved to a different page. --Pi zero (talk) 04:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The analogy is probably overtaxed by now anyway, but I might note that the analogy doens't extend very gracefully to likening Misplaced Pages to a chess cafe because, following the analogy, it's not a cafe at all; only certain side areas of Misplaced Pages are used for semi-private tables at all (userspace), and those areas also tend to have relatively greater flexibility of topic (not unlimited, of course, but in this case the intent seems to be that the discussion be about Misplaced Pages, so that calling it off-topic would be a bit of a stretch). Oh, and since you ask it, ping:Chess. --Pi zero (talk) 04:28, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• Keep. I don't see any harm in this, nor any actual pointer to what policy it violates. The fact that people think the problem of "but it's exclusionary" is a bigger deal than the problem of Misplaced Pages's discussion venues being, at the very very most good-faith, implicitly biased towards a discussion style men are sociologically conditioned for, is a really good argument for its existence. Ironholds (talk) 04:47, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
• Delete. I really can't see any reason why this should exist, and there are other places that can handle any discussion that could take place in the kaffeeklatsch better than in the kaffeeklatsch. Content dispute? Talk page of the articles. Behavior dispute? ANI, AN, civility noticeboard, user talk of the offending editor. Advice? Help desk, teahouse, #wikipedia-en-help, the {{help me}} template, even! Off topic discussion? Take it to an off topic forum. Discussion about Misplaced Pages? Village pump. There is literally nothing in the kaffeeklatsch that could not be better handled by another place already in existence on Misplaced Pages. It's like buying a swiss army knife when you already have a kit of full sized tools that you use often. The swiss army knife has a bunch of worse versions of the tools you already have, so there's no practical reason to use it, unless you don't use the full sized tools enough to justify maintaining them. And also, the hypothetical swiss army knife only works on around 10% of objects. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 05:13, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
• Keep, for now. I wouldn't object to a deletion request if the page were dormant or clearly being used for non-encyclopedic purposes, but it seems a little hasty considering that it's just getting off the ground. Let's come back to this in 6 months or so and see if the discussion has proven meaningful for supporting and retaining editors. Shii (tock) 06:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)