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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

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  • RM, Men's rights → Men's rights movement, Not moved, 5 nov 2011, RM
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  • RM, Men's rights movement → Men's rights, Not moved, 13 Sept 2012, RM

A suggestion

Hi, I stumbled here from a certain highly controversial article. I just want to make a suggestion for this article, it'll require some work. What I suggest doing is trawling through news stories try to find a main set of issues and build the article around those, maybe with reference to major news stories and responses. At present the article reads very list like. HalfHat 15:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly what it used to be before the last incarnation of the article was deleted.80.111.44.31 (talk) 11:39, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
This version is better sourced --5.81.52.82 (talk) 21:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree that grouping MRM issues into a few broad categories (perhaps keeping them as distinct subsections) would clarify the article. Adoption, dowry, custody, divorce, paternity fraud, divorce, marriage strike, and reproductive rights are all part of Family law. Circumcision, rape, domestic violence, prison, and conscription are about Violence. Education, government support, social security, and insurance might be a miscellaneous category such as Discrimination. What do you think? AfungusAmongus (talk) 06:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Looking through the article itself, I find it needs more than that. The list of 'Issues' being so long and many of them redirects being directly underneath shows perhaps it actually needs it's own space. It is currently not very readable, but there are a few other issues I'd like to bring up that could be put right with this and a solution driven from both.
I had a rather shocking time reading the opening. The opening seems fairly neutral till the last sentence. It seems to have sources put at the end but the way it's laid out is extremely misleading to the casual reader. It doesn't explicitly say who these scholars are, and only mentions the souther poverty law center. The nebulous 'commentators' and 'scholars' is completely unhelpful and seems merely used to prop up a statement said by a spokesperson at the SPLC(I would also challenge if the SPLC affiliated party was acting as a spokesperson in the citation after a casual glance but this is outside the scope of what I'm suggesting. If they were not acting as an official spokeperson, all mention of being criticized by the institution should be attributed to the affiliated party themselves, but I'll leave that to people with far more time and interest in the topic.). There is a plethora of criticism on the topic where it could have it's own section with proper citations. I would suggest AGAINST using a similar 'reactions' style of section like over at Feminism which seems a little disingenuous in how it labels subsections. There is a LOT of points expressed from many of the editors who seem passionate about the topic(actually this is somewhat unfortunate. This article doesn't seem neutral in a few aspects) and I think these changes would actually also bring a compromise to a few other disputes. A neutral issues for mens rights article and including a neutral 'critique' or other type of section in the main article. FlossumPossum (talk) 09:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Can I ask, since when did we start using incredibly biased blog sites as sources ? Salon ? I hardly call that legitimate... Whats next Jezebel ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Westside12345 (talk • contribs) 22:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Review of sources on three issues

. I made an edit to this article the other day which was intended to clarify two points: first that the MRM is not merely a backlash against feminism, and second that the MRM does not necessarily support traditional gender roles. The edit was reverted, and so I decided to look into the source material. At this point I've reviewed a number of sources and listed relevant snippets below. A third point raised my interest as I went: how writers on this topic distinguish the "Men's rights movement" from other groups or viewpoints. This seems to be central to the way that people discuss the MRM. I've posted some material on this definitional aspect below as well.

I'm "showing my work" here in case others are interested to participate. With a bit more thought, I may make make further attempts to edit the article. Note: I see an editor did something similar: User:Ismarc/MR/Basis. 24.18.98.101 (talk) 23:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Gender roles

  • "There is a general agreement among the various strands of the men's movement in Australia (and elsewhere) that traditional masculinity is restricting, damaging and limiting to masculine identity and possibility (Flood 1996). Indeed, it has been argued that dominant representations of masculinity are now more in line with notions of "Sensitive New Age Guys" who are in touch with their own feelings as well as those of their partners and children (Lupton and Barclay 1997). Much of the newer collection of men's self-help books, for example, promote these representations and "interpellate men as maimed or incomplete subjects" (Buchbinder 1998, 46).Sarah Maddison
  • "Both men’s rights and pro-feminist men share a critique of traditional masculinity — that it basically offers a raw deal for men."Salon
  • "Men's realisation of the hollowness and corruption of traditional masculinity is a common path to the men's movement." Michael Flood
  • "George Gilder's Sexual Suicide, published in 1973... expresses a conservative standpoint that reverberates in political discourse today. Any movement that challenges these traditional roles, such as feminism, gay liberation, or sexual liberation, is to be resisted... defense of the traditional family is equated with defense of civilization." Notes early conservative support for patriarchy, and cites Promise Keepers as falling in this tradition. Kenneth Clatterbaugh.
  • "While profeminist men and profeminist writing generally constitute the dominant perspective within men’s studies in the academy, the shelves in the men’s section of most bookstores are filled with books that come from two other perspectives, namely, men’s rights and mythopoetic, which share the basic assumption that what is wrong with men’s lives derives from the traditional masculine gender role of protector, provider, and head of the family." Clatterbaugh
  • "tarting with Herb Goldberg’s The Hazards of Being Male: Surviving the Myth of Masculine Privilege (1976), there has been a steady stream of books that argue that men are not privileged relative to women. The authors of these books claim either that men are just as afflicted by their gender role or that they are more afflicted by it than are women by theirs. In either case, men’s rights defenders find a great lie at the center of feminism, namely, the notion that men are privileged relative to women. Probably no writer has said it better than Goldberg problems of traditional masculinity such as emotional repression, isolation from other men, fear of failure, and a high suicide rate." Clatterbaugh
  • "The theme that was foundational to men's rights, namely, the oppressive nature of traditional masculinity, has been undermined by fathers' rights activists who want to pursue a set of custody rights 'and' traditional masculinity." Clatterbaugh

24.18.98.101 (talk) 23:35, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"Backlash"

  • "Put in its crudest form, men within these organisations argue that the gender equity pendulum has swung too far and, as a result, men are now disadvantaged and discriminated against." Sarah Maddison
  • "Some of the men’s liberationists actually supported feminism, said that feminism actually enables men to get in touch with their feelings, to be good fathers, to not simply be loved for their wallets, et cetera. And some men’s liberationists went the anti-feminist route, and say men get a bad deal because women are actually winning. That’s the basic split." Salon
  • "Most if not all contemporary societies are characterized by men's institutional privilege (Messner, 1997, p.5).... The danger, therefore, is that by mobilizing men collectively as men and thus drawing on their shared interests, activists inadvertently will entrench gender privilege (Connell, 1995, pp. 234-238). This potential has been realized among men's rights and fathers' rights groups, which are energetically engaged in an antiwomen and antifeminist backlash (Flood, 1997, 1998).... However, men can be and are motivated by interests other than those associated with gender privilege...." Michael Flood
  • "A few short minutes spent touring the cyber-world of men's rights Web pages will unveil, for both the converted and unwary, a truly remarkable gallery of anti-feminist content." Robert Menzies
  • "Paralleling the experiences of feminisms and other 'new social movements' (Laclau and Mouffe 2001; Mouffe 1992), the "men's project" has, since its inception, encompassed a stupefyingly pluralistic and heterodox array of political and substantive approaches to the advancement of men's consciousness, well-being, and emancipation. Strands... range from the contributions of socialist, pro-feminist, gay liberationist, and anti-racist organizations... to the overtly regressive, fundamentalist, "moral majoritarian," and feminist-aversive initiatives of main concern to this current study (on the men's movement generally, see . In canvasing the outpourings of men's discourse and activism in these latter, more atavistic forms, it is important to remember that the right-wing orthodoxy is neither exclusive nor fully representative.... Pro-feminist, anti-(hetero)sexist, and other rights-promoting men's groups have been key and constant allies of contemporary feminism since the 1970s.... Robert Menzies
  • "Indeed, the collected sites were far from being uniformly antagonistic to feminism. Three... actively advanced women's causes. Others were relatively indifferent on the subject of feminism or ignored women entirely while campaigning for men's rights.... But also notable is the numerical and ideological dominance of an avowedly anti-feminist, and habitually misogynistic, impetus." Robert Menzies
  • "Men's rights is widely understood as being the 'backlash' strand of the men's movement. That is to say there is a widespread belief amongst men's rights activists that the women's movement has 'gone too far' and has harmed men in profound and fundamental ways. Men's rights men 'deny any idea of men's power and argue that men are now the real victims' (Flood 1996, 22)..." Sarah Maddison
  • "Although a variety of men's issues organizations with a variety of orientations exists (Menzies 2007), this book focuses on antifeminist men's rights and fathers' rights groups because they have been the ones mounting legal attacks against protections for abused women in Booth v. Hvass and other cases." Molly Dragiewicz
  • "The essential belief that underlies the men's rights perspective is that the women's movement has wrongly identified men as a privileged class and women as lacking power relative to men. A consequence of this perspective is a view that is unrelentingly hostile to feminist and profeminist ideologies." Men and Masculinities
  • "The literature of the men's rights movement frequently cites statistics that show that men suffer shorter lives, higher successful suicide rates, and a higher incidence of most stress related diseases than do women."Men and Masculinities
  • "However, profeminist men soon encountered another political conflict with an emerging movement that called itself the men's rights movement. This movement, like the profeminist men's movement, enjoyed the support of some prominent feminist writers and activists. The men's rights movement was premised on an agreement with the profeminists, namely that men were severely damaged by having to play the traditional male gender role. But they departed from the profeminists by arguing that this damage was so extensive that it was a mistake to view men as the privileged sex. They attacked feminists and pro-feminists from this vantage point and accused them of overlooking the oppression of men. ... Profeminist groups after a brief attempt to create a dialogue with men's rights activists banned presentations from a men's rights perspective from their national and international conferences. Of course, a counter exclusion came from the men's rights coalitions." Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities
  • "Carrigan et al. (1985:580), in a review of 'books about men' found that much of the 'men's movement' literature of the 1970s believed that men stood to gain from women's liberation through opportunities to overcome over-rigid sex role requirements from which oppression, both women's and men's derived....Networks of men’s consciousness-raising groups were formed in the UK, USA and to a lesser extent Australia, and were comprised largely of heterosexual white middle-class professional men responding to the emotional fallout from confronting feminist critiques (often from close friends, wives and lovers) of men and masculinity. From these groups germinated the perspectives of pro-feminst, men’s rights and masculinity therapy, and despite their subsequent divergence towards the late 1970s as major differences in approaches emerged, all have continued to advocate the benefits from men learning to relate more closely to one another and (to varying degrees) of overcoming rigid and restrictive masculine norms." Lingard and Douglas
  • "While conservative elements of the men’s rights position overtly describe themselves as a ‘backlash’ to feminism, their more liberal counterpart’s self-proclaimed commitment to ‘the true equality of both sexes and to the liberation of both sexes from their traditional roles’ (Clatterbaugh 1997: 89) make it problematic to describe the men’s rights position in general as nothing more than a backlash against feminism." Lingard and Douglas, pg. 36

Strands

  • Four strands (also discussed by Maddison): "The men's movement can be understood in terms of four overlapping strands: (1) anti-sexist and pro-feminist, (2) men's liberation (the most widespread one), (3) spiritual or mythopoetic, and (4) men's rights and fathers' rights." .... The men's liberation strand argues that men are hurt by the male "sex role" and that men's lives are alienating, unhealthy and impoverished.... Men are overworked, trained to kill or be killed, brutalised and subjected to blame and shame.... mens' liberation is roughly equivalent to the 'liberal profeminism' which Clatterbaugh places alongside 'radical profeminism'.... Men's rights men share with men's liberationists the idea that men's roles are harmful, damaging and in fact lethal for men. But they blame women or feminism for the harm done to men, deny any idea of men's power and argue that men are now the real victims.... Men's rights is generally an anti-feminist perspective, and described by many commentators as representing a 'backlash'...." Michael Flood
  • "This review essay... explores both academic and men's movement writings.... The reason these two are linked is that the men's movement, which is actually several distinct movements, is responsible for the creation and maintenance o much of what is called men's studies. Even today most academic writing owes its inspiration tot one or mroe of the men's movements that began outside of academia." Kenneth Clatterbaugh
  • "Mythopoetic writing is a specialized area that falls within neo-Jungian New Age literature." Clatterbaugh
  • "...the Promise Keepers, the fourth major men's movement...." Clatterbaugh

24.18.98.101 (talk) 22:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

The men's movement in all its forms (or strands) is certainly a countermovement to the advances made by feminism. A countermovement is a backlash. I don't see any reason why we would try to whitewash the men's movement or misrepresent it as arising spontaneously. Binksternet (talk) 03:14, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for responding. For my part I see a distinction between someone who wants to get back to the "good old days," versus someone who says that men and women each have legitimate gripes as groups on specific issues, versus someone who declares men to be under-privileged on whole. I might characterize the first and third of these to be a backlash, but not the second. Of course, the ideas overlap in actual people. Here's one source: "t might come as a bit of surprise to know that the seeds of the contemporary Men's Rights movement were initially planted in the same soil from which feminism sprouted." Another, quoted above: "The men's rights movement was premised on an agreement with the profeminists, namely that men were severely damaged by having to play the traditional male gender role." The word "countermovement" is not so familiar to me, and could be interpreted to mean, in effect, "Hey, we want that too!" If so, I'd be inclined to say that basically covers the spectrum. However, countermovement suggests it means only the same as "backlash," as you say, and I'm seeing disagreement on that point in the sources which deserves more careful review. 24.18.98.101 (talk) 04:59, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
You point to a Coston/Kimmel paper where they say the "same soil" sprouted both the feminist movement and the men's rights movement. What they don't tell the reader is that first-wave feminism was first. Nobody gave a fig for men's liberation until the pioneers among women were beginning to get ahead of the lesser men. So the men's rights movement was indeed a countermovement. Sharing the same "soil" (wanting the same life improvements) doesn't change that. Binksternet (talk) 07:07, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Was, is or always will be a countermovement? Feminism was the original fount of gender-awareness, perhaps. I'm sure you see the distinction, in any case, between a movement to reverse the gains of feminism, and a movement to copy the achievements of feminism. Some writers suggest that to copy is impossible, because at the heart of feminism is the concept that males are privileged, a notion antithetical to the MRM. However, that isn't the only view. I'd be surprised if you suggest that no significant strands of the broader men's movement want to copy feminism's achievements, rather than to reverse them, and perhaps even see themselves in conflict only with radical elements of feminist thinking, if any, rather than with "feminism." We all have our ways of framing conflicts, after all, and my own is to say that we've yet to find a clear one between the two of us. I appreciate your counters, nonetheless, as I am interested to learn more about this topic. 24.18.98.101 (talk) 07:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I think 24.18.98.101 provides good reasoning and source material Binksternet (talk · contribs), to back up the distinction between describing this movement as one that is striving to reverse the gains of feminism, versus one that is trying to copy its achievements. I suspect this difference in perception over the movement's aims, and how other source material has been used in this article to describe the movement as a countermovement or a backlash within the article, is the cause of much disagreement. Part of the difficulty of describing the men's rights movement accurately is that some components of the men's movement involve challenging recent societal claims made by feminists, while other components involved men pursuing or fighting for rights in areas of gender roles in a manner complementing the advances women received from feminism. Categorically describing the movement as a "backlash" washes over the complexity of the topic's dimensions, and more dangerously, induces unwarranted WP:UNDUE weight to one perspective of how to describe the topic.Spudst3r (talk) 02:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I hope to keep adding material above as I find it. My sense is that rather than quibbling over details, or jumping into controversial parts of the article, it will be more fruitful for me to look for additional material on difficult points to add clarity. I just googled one of our sources and found an editor has gone through a similar effort: User:Ismarc/MR/Basis. If anyone has thoughts, I'm interested to hear. 24.18.98.101 (talk) 23:08, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for these efforts, your work has been the best repository for sourced material so far for describing the various dimensions of the movement, and might allow us to reach a better consensus on fixing NPOV issues existing within the article.

NPOV dispute

"Sectors of the men's rights movement have been critiqued for exhibiting misogynistic tendencies." This sentence not only describes, but also subtly endorses the criticism. A less opinionated and more concise sentence such as "have been characterized as misogynistic." would better uphold Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.

"Some if not many men's rights issues stem from double standards and gender roles, and a few can also be linked to patriarchy. Furthermore, some issues may also be linked to issues that affect other genders." The single, hostile source here suggests that the links to patriarchy and women's issues should be moved to Reactions/criticism. Double standards and gender roles have a neutral tone, while patriarchy is a contested issue. AfungusAmongus (talk) 16:38, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

How about for the first sentence "Sectors of the men's rights movement have been critiqued as having misogynistic tendencies." I haven't read the sources in a while, so I'm not sure how well this represents them though. For the second issue, we should probably qualify the statement. As in "According to Author some if not many men's rights issues stem from double standards and gender roles, and a few can also be linked to patriarchy." And the second sentence can probably be dropped unless we get a reliable source for it. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:04, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Have no preference regarding the first issue as they strike me as more or less the same. However, didnt a previous rev contain the exact phrasing "have been characterized as misogynistic" or am I just misremembering things? PearlSt82 (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I edited the article to this effect yesterday but it was reverted, so I came here. AfungusAmongus (talk) 17:37, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I was referring to a few months back. If you're the ip editor from yesterday, there were more to those edits than the above sentence, which is likely why they got reverted immediately. Even with non-controversial changes (which I would consider the first issue to be), its still a good idea to raise on the talk page before acting on the article space due to the article probation. PearlSt82 (talk) 18:03, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
So where do you think the connection between patriarchy and men's rights issues belongs? If the link comes from sources critical of the MRM then I think it should go in the criticism section. AfungusAmongus (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Linking the MRM with patriarchy isn't criticism though. I agree with Kyohyi's above. PearlSt82 (talk) 19:26, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I disagree - speculation that some (which?) MRM issues are caused by society "being male dominated, male identified, and male centered" (definition of patriarchy from ) is a criticism of the MRM's focus on specific areas of male disadvantage. It is out of place in a section introducing and categorizing men's rights issues. AfungusAmongus (talk) 21:29, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
That might be stretching it a little too far per WP:SYNTH but its hard to say for certain without the original source in front of me as the whole thing isn't on Google Books. Maybe whoever added the text can chime in? PearlSt82 (talk) 01:38, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
"It may help to heal some of the damage patriarchy does to men's lives. But it is not a movement aimed at the system and the gender dynamics that actually cause that damage." The Gender Knot - already linked on the article - unambiguously argues that patriarchy causes MRM issues in order to criticize the MRM's focus. AfungusAmongus (talk) 03:33, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I find this sentence oddly ambiguous: "Some if not many men's rights issues stem from double standards, gender roles, and patriarchy." Is this accusing the MRM of these things, or saying that the MRM alleges these things? If it is somehow both, the article should presumably say so. 73.221.66.170 (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
This sentence lists three (possible) causes of MRM issues in an apparent attempt to provide context. One of them (patriarchy) was, as I showed above, specifically intended as criticism of the MRM. It should be moved to the criticism section. AfungusAmongus (talk) 23:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

"men's rights activists have viewed the women's movement as a plot to conceal discrimination against men" This sentence expresses a radical position as if it were typical. I will add the qualifier "some" in order to avoid overgeneralization.AfungusAmongus (talk) 14:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

"The men's rights movement is made up of a variety of groups and individuals who commonly focus on what they consider to be issues of male disadvantage, discrimination and oppression." Excessive bracketing of perspectives is redundant and dismissive towards those perspectives. "Group X focuses on issues Y,Z" is agnostic on those issues, while "Group X focuses on what they consider to be issues Y,Z" invites the reader to doubt the legitimacy of these issues. Does "concerned with issues Y,Z" strike a neutral tone, or does it now subtly endorse a controversial position?AfungusAmongus (talk) 04:39, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

What are you proposing as an actionable change based on reliable sources? PearlSt82 (talk) 00:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I removed "what they consider to be" per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Expressions_of_doubt. I also removed "oppression" because it's a stronger claim than anything in the cited sources. AfungusAmongus (talk) 01:46, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
You removed much more than the "what they consider to be" part which was discussed several times (e.g., and ) and is supported by consensus and all the cited sources discussion, for example. You changed the lead section without consensus. I will restore the previous wording. Do not restore your changes without consensus. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 16:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Also please do not add unreliable sources as you did here. A speech at the conference is not a reliable source. Please self-revert or wait for some experienced editor to undo your addition. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 16:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Self-reverted (removed link to speech at IMCI 2014). Will try to find a reliable secondary source. Thanks for pointing that out! AfungusAmongus (talk) 03:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
You restored the word "oppression" - a word absent from the cited sources - without giving a reason. Can you find a reliable source for this? AfungusAmongus (talk) 02:24, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
That men's rights activists think that men are oppressed? This is already sourced to six academic references in the "movement" section and to three additional refs in the "education" and "health" sections.
Ah ok, so why are some claims in the header given footnotes and others not? AfungusAmongus (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
It's interesting to examine the quotes. Clatterbaugh comments: "The theme that was foundational to men's rights, namely the oppressive nature of traditional masculinity, has been undermined by fathers' rights activists who want to pursue a set of custody rights 'and' traditional masculinity.'" Here, the type of "oppression" is not what one would generally expect (oppression by others). The first quote listed above, from Madison, also refers to oppression "by systems." The second, by Newton, places the term "oppression" in scare quotes, seemingly to note the irony of such a claim. I don't deny that many sources refer to oppression, although I believe most are openly derisive in doing so. 73.221.66.170 (talk) 07:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Also I don't see any consensus on the "what they consider to be" phrasing in any of the talk page archives. We may need arbitration?AfungusAmongus (talk) 22:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
1) We can't use Misplaced Pages's voice because it's highly questionable as to whether the issues that MRAs are concerned about truly constitute discrimination against men and oppression of men. 2) The current wording and previous versions (e.g., "perceived issues of discrimination") accurately summarize reliable sources. 3) "Consider" or "perceive" is perfectly neutral; all it does is attribute the view to men's rights activists, rather than stating it as an undisputed fact. 4) This was discussed several times. I linked two archived discussions, here they are again: perceived?, and again, "Perceived". You can replace "what they consider to be" with "perceived" or "what they perceive to be", but if you want to remove the attribution altogether, you'll need to gain consensus first. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 15:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the wording concerning "what they consider to be," because it most accurately attributes the views to their source. However, this also means that you cannot put an accurate representation of reality in this section (no matter how you see it). You must use a representation of reality that is as they see it. There is no support that they consider themselves to be oppressed that I can find. I suspect there is support for this view somewhere, but it may be a minority view among the movement. If you wish to put this view here, you will need to clarify that there is disagreement about the oppression or that it is a minority view. Xoviat (talk) 16:12, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I just quoted six academic sources which state that men's rights activists regard men as oppressed. Hence, your claim that you see "no support that they consider themselves oppressed" makes absolutely no sense. Especially because it's about their view of men, not themselves. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 13:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

"The men's rights movement denies the existence of male privilege"

It is inaccurate to state that the MRM denies the existence of male privilege. MRAs believe that men are privileged in certain situations and women are privileged in others. Both male privilege and female privilege exist.

There are some MRAs who object to the word "privilege" due to its use (or abuse) as a silencing tactic... for instance a man who tries to enter a discussion on gender issues, and is silenced or excluded due to his gender as he is told that people with male privilege are not wanted in the discussion. He may feel disprivileged in the area of gender discussions because he faces this problem while others don't, and may even wrongly claim that male privilege doesn't exist.

But to claim that MRAs in general do not believe that "social, economic, and political advantages or rights that are made available to men solely on the basis of their sex" is a thing that even exists... that is not accurate. A better line might be "The men's rights movement believes that both male privilege and female privilege exist, and that both are harmful to society."

Wording changes like this need to be sourced. PearlSt82 (talk) 20:42, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
It looks like the above suggestion was made without a specific edit by "Chocoboat." I see the sentence appears in the article here: Men's_rights_movement#Female_privilege. It starts: "The men's rights movement denies the existence of male privilege." Chocoboat suggests a change: "The men's rights movement believes that both male privilege and female privilege exist, and that both are harmful to society." I don't agree entirely, because I don't think the MRM is monolithic on these points. However, the current sentence suffers the same problem, and is also written in a way that sounds satirical. (If you're curious, google the phrase "denies the existence of.) The sentence cites Clatterbaugh. I quoted a relevant passage of his above: "tarting with Herb Goldberg’s The Hazards of Being Male: Surviving the Myth of Masculine Privilege (1976), there has been a steady stream of books that argue that men are not privileged relative to women. The authors of these books claim either that men are just as afflicted by their gender role or that they are more afflicted by it than are women by theirs. In either case, men’s rights defenders find a great lie at the center of feminism, namely, the notion that men are privileged relative to women. Probably no writer has said it better than Goldberg problems of traditional masculinity such as emotional repression, isolation from other men, fear of failure, and a high suicide rate."" Similarly, The Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities states: "The men's rights movement was premised on an agreement with the profeminists, namely that men were severely damaged by having to play the traditional male gender role. But they departed from the profeminists by arguing that this damage was so extensive that it was a mistake to view men as the privileged sex. They attacked feminists and pro-feminists from this vantage point and accused them of overlooking the oppression of men."
Setting aside the tone of the current sentence, the real problem in my view is that we have just two sentences in this section. In order to improve the passage, someone should probably expand it a bit so that it isn't just a competition over sound-bytes. Unfortunately, I'm short on time to make a real effort at the moment.73.221.66.170 (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

IP editors and recent reverts

Been seeing a lot of IP editors making the same reverts repeatedly. Think we need to use RPP? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:27, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Might be a good idea. PearlSt82 (talk) 01:19, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I would support this and a mandate for usernames by all editors on this article. It's just too hard keeping track of all the different IP addies. I don't think this unreasonable here. Nodekeeper (talk) 14:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Main article appears to be pushing a POV .... are there one or two editors dominating here?

The main entry makes a critical error of characterizing the MRM as a singular entity branching off the feminist-inspired ‘Men’s Liberation Movement’ in the 1970s, when it is more accurately a plurality of movements spanning more than a century - just like feminism. The article narrative problematizes the MRM by evaluating it through feminist concepts like ‘patriarchal power and privilege,’ and places undue emphasis in the lede on the MRM as an antifeminist, misogynist reflex while underemphasizing its mission of reducing real cultural and legal discrimination against men. Reducing the men’s rights movement to an antifeminist backlash makes about as much sense as reducing the black civil rights movement to being anti-white, or the gay rights movement being to being anti-heterosexuality. 124.150.108.172 (talk) 10:50, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I noted why I reverted you here. Well, if that was you. As for your movement comparisons, that's like comparing apples and oranges. Flyer22 (talk) 10:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I'd be interested to know, Flyer22, the reason why the movement comparisons are like comparing apples and oranges.
T 88.89.217.109 (talk) 15:30, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Please sign up for a Misplaced Pages account and then sign your posts here with four tildes. It's quick and easy and would help other editors. Nodekeeper (talk) 14:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Is that required? I think the truth is that people need to make specific suggestions if they want to improve the article. People may or may not like the idea of signing up for an account, and it doesn't seem to be required, or please let me know otherwise. 73.221.66.170 (talk) 21:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
It's required to edit this article and other articles that have been protected. It has been protected because of repeated vandalism. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I think you're saying it's required to edit the article itself while it is protected. I see the recurrent scribbling on the article, so that makes sense. However, I don't believe we need to have accounts to comment on the talk page or to edit the article when it's unprotected, right? It may be helpful in terms of keeping track of people. OTOH, this happens to be a controversial topic, where people may not want to have any formal level of involvement (after all, one strongly voiced perspective is that there's something wrong with you if you even think about this sort of thing too much), and yet might have useful suggestions if they understood what type of comments are useful. $.02. 64.134.124.36 (talk) 00:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

MGTOW?

There is a (what I would describe as) radical portion of the MRM that identifies itself as "MGTOW." I think this page could be more informative if information was included on this portion. What are the opinions of others? Xoviat (talk) 16:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

  • As far as I know, there is no significant coverage in reliable sources of MGTOW. Until such coverage exists, we can't include information about MGTOW in the article. (If I'm wrong and there is coverage in RSes of MGTOW, then this doesn't apply, and the submovement could be appropriately written about subject to NOR/DUE, etc.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:30, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Relation to Feminism -- Warren Farrell's perspective

In defence to why I added Warren Farrell's call for a "gender transition movement" to the "relationship with feminism" section:

a. Warren Farrell's book (The Myth of Male Power) is widely considered one of the most influential books ever released within the 'MRA movement'. He easily meets the definition of Notability for the purposes of this article. e.g. from a January 2015 article:

"Farrell is widely considered to be the father of the men's rights movement. ... Many of today's men's rights activists view Farrell's 1993 book, The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex, as their touchstone, and the online forums where they congregate are steeped in Farrell's ideas."

b. Right now this section only suggests that the MRM is a direct "backlash" to feminism. Warren's more conciliatory MRA sentiment towards feminism is not acknowledged once within Relation to feminism section of this article, despite evidence that Warren's beliefs are widely held by many MRA's. To be NPOV this article needs to accurately give light to various perspectives within the MRA movement as to how they (think) they relate to feminism.

The content I added to the Relationship with feminism section was written carefully to explain in a NPOV manner the complex interplay of how ideas within the MRM are perceived to interplay with feminism. If you have a problem with these viewpoints, or believe they do not accurately reflect the movement as a whole, then please refine or add to this section -- do not revert. Further analytical responses to Farrell's assertion that the men's rights movement is a "gender transition movement" could be appropriate to fully flesh out this section. Spudst3r (talk) 05:31, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

You need citations that explicitly state that Farrell (1) sees MRM as complement to feminism and (2) both focus on the roles of genders of specific genders. The quote you gave simply said that there are gender roles and that they are not historically static. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:10, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree the wording "complement" could be improved. A more directly attributable quote from him may be needed to more appropriately echo his sentiment on how the movement relates to feminism, though I think the current sources show that the word "complement" is quite an accurate description of what Farrell was advocating within the source I cited.Spudst3r (talk) 01:00, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Many MRAs view Farrell's writings as important resources to draw on, however Farrell is not explicitly writing about the men's rights movement in the passages you cite. To apply Farrell's quoted writings directly to the MRM is to assume a thought that Farrell at no time actually states. To ascribe an opinion to Farrell supported nowhere in his book is original research. Evergreen's edit is an appropriate interim cut, but if no citation can be found (and, unless he's written something about it in the last few months, no citation will be found - none exists) the material will necessarily be removed. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:27, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm sure I could find more recent sources, but I question the need to do so because it doesn't matter whether Farrell's call for a "gender transition movement" within his book is not a direct reference to the present day "male rights movement." It's clear his class for this movement, which has been established via sources above as extremely influential for the creation of the movement itself, as its "touchstone" book, represents a description of how the movement can/should/will relate to feminism. I feel like there is an implicit effort here to address the topic of the "male's rights movement" as a concept that hasn't existed over a period of time. Currently I would disagree and think treatments of its "relationship to feminism" should be treated similar to how a women's rights article would describe a "relationship to men" -- as an evolving relationship that may be best described in chronological terms (with Farrell's quotes here as its opening, perhaps.) This chronological approach could resolve your issues that this definition is not a referene to the current movement as you see it, while preserving this quote from a book that is widely considered by sources to be seminal to the movement's existence, and thus, an apt resource for citation in regards to discussing the movement's relationship to feminism.Spudst3r (talk) 01:00, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, it appears that 'Wiki:Feminism' believes it has ownership of every single article on Misplaced Pages. It's about time that project is restrained to an appropriate domain limit. A task force should be set up to articulate mens gender issues clearly and fairly. 77.97.17.147 (talk) 14:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Discuss the article, not your perceived cabals. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
  • @Spudst3r: Warren Farrell doesn't mention the men's rights movement in The Myth of Male Power, let alone discuss it in relation to feminism or anything else. Thus, you added original research with this edit and then edit-warred over your addition. This article and related pages are under article probation, as you very well know. I suggest that you self-revert and remove your original research as soon as possible. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 13:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Notice: Article submitted to NPOV NoticeBoard

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3ANeutral_point_of_view%2FNoticeboard&diff=646556028&oldid=646162832 BrentNewland (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry

Just as a heads up: There has been some serious off-site coordination on Reddit and MRA sites to influence this article and discussions. Thus the recent influx of new editors and activity by dormant accounts. If it gets worse, someone should take this to AN/I. For now, I'll ping the patrolling admin Bbb23. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 14:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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