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One revert per seven days imposed on this article

Bumping thread. Jytdog (talk) 01:29, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I have imposed a one revert per seven days restriction on this article as an arbitration enforcement action for one month in the hope that it will at least slow down edit wars. I will also note that tag team edit warring is disruptive and may result in the editors involved being further restricted (such as with 0RR or an article ban). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:07, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Callanecc thank you for imposing DS. Since you have been overwatching this article for a while and have now stepped in to impose DS (thank you for that), you may be the most appropriate person to review and close the 3RR case I opened last night, which is here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Atsme_reported_by_User:Jytdog_.28Result:_.29. Jytdog (talk) 14:39, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
I have withdrawn that 3RR case and have posted a link to it at the AE opened by Atsme against Steeletrap here Jytdog (talk) 21:45, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Callanecc: I think some kind of warning is needed for editors who won't see your message here. I don't know how such things are done, but it seems likely that new editors will come to the article and unknowingly violate this restriction. SPECIFICO talk 18:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

There's a large edit notice on the article which is designed so that you need to scroll past it to be able to edit the page. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 21:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I see. My mistake. I've never edited the article, just a spectator here due to the fringe Jeckyll Island stuff. SPECIFICO talk 22:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Lede: conspiracy theories

The lede currently states:

In the 1960s he began a career of producing documentaries and books on conspiracy theories related to cancer, the historicity of Noah's Ark, and the Federal Reserve System, the Supreme Court of the United States,

This is misleading. Aaronovich's Voodoo Histories is a book on conspiracy theories, Griffin's books are not books on conspiracy theories, they are books promoting conspiracy theories. Griffin explicitly rejects the mainstream view that the New World Order is a conspiracy theory, instead asserting that it is a genuine conspiracy.

I propose that this sentence be changed to:

In the 1960s he began producing documentaries and books promulgating conspiracy theories related to a range of subjects including cancer, ...

This is well established by the existing sources and is a much more accurate statement. Guy (Help!) 07:02, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Given Callenecc's post just above, I think this is a desirable change. The timing here is excellent, for other reasons as well. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Any specific text to propose? Guy (Help!) 16:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
that's a reasonable change. a similar change should be made to the last sentence of "early career"Jytdog (talk) 09:25, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree with this change. jps (talk) 14:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Disagree - it is violative of consensus and unsourced. Some of his books dissect evidence of a conspiracy, some don't even mention conspiracy, so you can't lump sum his entire career and all of his literary works using the same contentious label. Atsme☯ 23:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
We have already disposed of your false claim that any mention of conspiracy theories violates consensus. Drmies' review of the RfC contradicts you unambiguously. I have asked several times for examples of works of his that are not conspiracist. You've failed to identify any. All I find when I go looking is more and wilder conspiracy theories, most especially on his website. Guy (Help!) 23:10, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I didn't say "any mention" so yours is actually the false claim, not mine. My concern is over it being used in Wiki voice and unsourced or poorly sourced, like citing 35 year old OR. Callan still supports consensus and a few other qualifications for using it. Don't forget, the term is still a contentious label in a BLP, so unless you plan to rewrite policy, please adhere to it. PS: I struck through Disagree and made it Oppose. Atsme☯ 03:53, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
thanks for weighing in Atsme. Guy, we don't have to argue with each other. And we don't need unanimity. We just need consensus; so far everybody who has commented here but one, has been in favor of this. let is stand it a bit longer, and if there is no more opposition we can add it. Jytdog (talk) 23:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
You are right that we do not have to argue with each other. I would argue, however, that stating a claim that is agreed by everyone else to be refuted, is arguing, and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT to boot. To be clear, I have no problem at all with someone saying "in my opinion X" even if X is wrong (I will challenge it if wrong, of course), but stating X as fact when it is not, in fact, fact, is problematic. Guy (Help!) 13:38, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
OK, i hear you. i don't think you and atsme are going to convince each other of anything... my wish is that we all untangle ours horns - we are all getting "locked-into-wikipedia-conflict syndrome". we can just simply acknowledge that we disagree on a given point, and move on to the next point. when there is a lack of consensus (substantial disagreement, not just one or two editors) that cannot be resolved by concretely-proposed tweaks to proposals, we can resolve that through RfCs.
I am hoping that we can decide if the article is good enough, or start proposing content to add or remove, and stop debating general points. Proposed content changes will either get consensus, or they won't. We may be able to have some discussion around how to improve proposed content that might be productive... but this kind of butting heads over general points goes no where (no one is convincing anyone) and is kind of forum-y. Jytdog (talk) 13:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
and so far, on your proposed content change, consensus so far is with it. like i said, maybe give it a day more, then you can implement it on solid ground. Jytdog (talk) 13:49, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • No surprise -- I agree with the proposed change as well. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:52, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose as "promulgating" has a distinct meaning not quite warranted here. He is not the person who made the theories "publicly known" - "supporting" is, in fact, accurate here. Noah's Ark stuff should be separated from the others as not actually involving a "conspiracy theory" as such but a Creationist Weltanschauung. OK? Collect (talk) 14:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Promulgate: "promote or make widely known" (as per Google result searching on the word). This is exactly what he has done. "Support" is ambiguous and vague in this context. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Collect, et al, would you accept the verb "promote" instead of "promulgate" and the more vague "support"? thx. Jytdog (talk) 14:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Changed to "promote" in may proposal. Collect (talk) 15:09, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
In my view, A1's opposition is based on not having read the sources provided and is not valid; you cannot continue to demand sources after you have been provided citations (and even provided citations yourself); not having access to them is not an excuse to demand more. Jytdog (talk) 14:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC) striking Jytdog (talk) 02:27, 25 February 2015 (UTC))
It doesn't say that his main ideas are conspiracy theories, it says that his books promote conspiracy theories, which is unarguably true. World Without Cancer, for example, posits a conspiracy of doctors and pharmaceutical companies suppressing the "truth" that cancer is caused by a deficiency of vitamin B17, when in reality there is no such thing as vitamin B17 and no evidence that cancer is caused by a deficiency of amygdalin. Krebs only called it a vitamin to get around the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, by all accounts. His books may also promote being kind to your mother, for all I know, but that's not what they are known for.
This is not a "may contain traces of nuts", the nuts are a key ingredient. You will be aware of the well-known problem of anaphylaxis and the fact that it is the most widely identified allergen; the label "may contain nuts" is placed on products that very often will contain no trace at all, simply as a hedge against lawsuits. With Griffin's writing conspiracy theories are not a nuance that may inadvertently creep in, as he argues is the case for the allegations of antisemitism, but a core premise.
Please do not fixate on the alternative meaning of nuts, it is emphatically not intended in this case, the point is the difference between a precautionary flag warning and an intended component. Guy (Help!) 10:50, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. I think "promulgating" might be my fault; I thought it more precise than "promoting", but it appears I may not have been using the primary definition of "promulgating", although some of the theories really are his. We might need some more sources in the body, though. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Actually the statement that he writes books on conspiracy theories is an opinion stated in Misplaced Pages voice. The sources divide into those who believe him and portray him as writing books on conspiracies, and those who accept the mainstream view of these things and describe him as advocating conspiracy theories. Guy (Help!) 10:50, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Guy two questions. I assume you are OK with using "promotes" instead of "promulgates", yes? Also, would you please present the full sentence, with sources? (reach for the best ones you can...since this is clearly contested.) thx Jytdog (talk) 04:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
(a) yes and (b) the sources are in the body already. Guy (Help!) 06:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I probably shouldn't bother posting here seeing that Atsme is here, but why not. There's a whole lot of emphasis that there is a conspiracy theory in this case as related to the Federal Reserve but there's little on the conspiracy theory. The question of weight should probably be asked. I'd call it lopsided myself, but that could be fixed by clearly describing the conspiracy theory. I think it probably be easier fixing some of the body problems in relation to the lede before fixing the lede. Side suggestion, I'd also ask if the subtitle "Pseudoscience promotion and conspiracy theories" could simply be changed to "Fringe views".-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
it's the New World Order conspiracy theory. Guy (Help!) 06:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
That's great, however again the article really does little in the way of making that clear.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 09:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

proposal

First proposal:

G. Edward Griffin (born November 7, 1931) is an American author, lecturer, and filmmaker. His works supportpromote some conspiracy theories and a Creationist view of history.
He started as a child actor in radio. He then became an announcer and assistant station director. In the 1960s he began writing books and films on a range of topics including a Creationist view of Noah's Ark, conspiracy theories about the banking system and government in general, and a fringe view on cancer treatment.
He has said that the original Noah's Ark is located in the Durupınar site.
He is well-known as the author of The Creature from Jekyll Island (1994), which promotes his views about the Federal Reserve System. He opposes the Federal Reserve, as constituting a banking cartel and an instrument of war and totalitarianism.
He has supported an empirically unsupported view that cancer is a nutritional deficiency. He also believes that scientists and politicians are covering up this cure. Since the 1970s, Griffin has promoted laetrile as a treatment. It is considered a form of quackery.

second proposal (trying to make changes clearer)

G. Edward Griffin (born November 7, 1931) is an American author, lecturer, and filmmaker. His works supportpromote somecertain conspiracy theories and a Creationist view of historyyoung Earth creationism.
He started as a child actor in radio. He then became an announcer and assistant station director. In the 1960s he began writing books and films on a range of topics including a Creationist view of Noah's Ark, conspiracy theories about the banking system and government in general, and an ineffective and dangerous fringe view on cancer treatment promoted by Ernst T. Krebs.
He has said that the original Noah's Ark is located in the Durupınar site.
He is well-known as the author of The Creature from Jekyll Island (1994), which promotes his views about the Federal Reserve System. He opposes the Federal Reserve, as constituting a banking cartel and an instrument of war and totalitarianism.
He has supported an empirically unsupported view that cancer is a nutritional deficiency. He also believes that scientists and politicians are covering up this cure. Since the 1970s, Griffin has promoted laetrile as a treatment. It is considered a form of quackery.

References

  1. ^ "Laetrile". American Cancer Society. Retrieved February 24, 2015.

This is what I rather think would fit all the concerns, and how would others tweak it? (all the government stuff is covered in the body of the BLP - the aim here is to be in summary style for the lead). Collect (talk) 14:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Word change as suggested above. Collect (talk) 15:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Your efforts are much appreciated but the lead is too short and mostly negative with a splattering of POV. Sorry, but I object to "Creationist view of history" because that is labeling with an opinion. He and others see it as historic which makes it noncompliant with NPOV. Also, without trying to mince words, he actually doesn't promote conspiracy theories, the latter of which is considered to be a contentious label, therefore it requires high quality sources with inline text attribution. Leaving POV at the login, we are writing a biography. His books actually dissect factual information which he disseminates from a conspiratorial view with the perception that such conspiracies are a threat to personal freedom. We can disagree with his perception, but it is not our place to hang labels on him. In his words (after all, we are writing his biography): There is nothing about my work that merits being classified as a conspiracy theory. In modern context, it is customary to associate the phrase “conspiracy theory” with those who are intellectually handicapped or ill informed. He also further explains that conspiracies are common throughout history. Very few major events of the past have occurred in the absence of conspiracies. To think that our modern age must be an exception is not rational. Facts are either true or false. If we disagree with a fact, our job is to explain why, not to use emotionally-loaded labels to discredit those who disagree with us. I also strongly object to citing Popular Paranoia as a RS. It is neither reliable nor acceptable for hanging a contentious label on anyone, especially with its Mad Magazine style compilation disguised as a book authored by self-proclaimed conspiracy theorist, Kenn Thomas. Also, Griffin's book Creature is a presentation of factual information regarding the structure of the Fed, it is highly regarded as such, and I don't think we should hang a conspiracy theory label on it. Controversial topic is much better suited. I have no problem at all with the classification of fringe cancer treatment and how the amygdalin references are written. I have provided a plethora of RS for the lead with good information, not all of which is derogatory or negative as the lead appears now. Atsme☯ 16:27, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
The aim is to present a short summary of the most important parts of the BLP. Searches for Noah's Ark pretty much ices it ... I suggest ascribing to the Creationism (where it frankly belongs) is a lot better and more accurate than the category of that article as a "religious hoax". I know of and could find no group which believes in the Ark which is not Creationist. I removed "Popular Paranoia" as being a poor source - but leads do not need sources where the needed sourcing must be in the body in any event.

Wording emended Collect (talk) 17:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Could you produce a "paste-up" of all the changes you would love to see and we can check readability and Misplaced Pages lead guidelines to see where we might end up? No reason to Wikilink in paste-ups as far as I am concerned. Aim is accuracy, and readability, while compromising to meet any major objections. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: I prefer readable and short leads. Collect (talk) 18:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I tried to modify your paste up. Revert if you don't like that. jps (talk) 19:04, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Collect, thank you for your consideration. I think the issue can readily be resolved by eliminating POV and PS, and replacing it with the historic significance of the topic. Fossilized remains, Egyptian mummies, the pyramids, Machu Pichu, ancient architecture, etc. are not PS, but I suppose we could attach that designation if needed, the latter of which demonstrates why we need to get control of this runaway train. PS has become censorship. We are supposed to be looking at historic values, not religious or scientific for that matter. It appears the far reaching tentacles of POV have assumed a choke hold on PS, and it flies in the face of NPOV. Perhaps as a quick refresher course we should read Britannica's entry on Noah's Ark to remind ourselves what "encyclopedic" looks like. I'm concerned WP is turning into a platform for advocacy groups which have obfuscated NPOV, and that presents a problem that should concern all of us. Atsme☯ 19:19, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


(discussing second version by I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc) Unfortunately, belief in Noah's ark is not strictly only from young earth creationists, making that link quite problematic unless you can find a source where Griffin says he is one. Nor do I find him making comments about other YEC issues. I do not see "certain" as a real improvement over "some". We already comment on Laetrile in the body of the article, making long and winding additions to that sentence do not appear to improve it as far as I can tell. Readers of the lead do not care who Krebs is. Thanks for the first paste-up though. Collect (talk) 19:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

He's clearly a creationist () and but you are correct in that I can't find evidence that he is a flood geology supporter. Ron Wyatt, his comrade-in-arms clearly is. How do we describe this fairly? He's essentially a supporter of a biblical literalist viewpoint when it comes to Noah's Ark. It's not a view of history but rather a religious presumption.
As far as laetrile-promotion, I think that we just need to describe it as a dangerous alternative cancer treatment. How about that? jps (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
The danger of any substance (drug or otherwise) depends on the dose. The acetaminophen toxicity results in damage to the liver, aspirin poisoning in high dosed damages the ears, and sometimes death. The tragic damage that results from laetrile treatment is the lost opportunity that people suffer by forgoing science based medical treatments, not from laetrile treatment itself. In other words, we cannot just say laetrile is dangerous – S. Rich (talk) 22:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)22:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Um-- isn't "quackery" then both accurate and sufficient? Collect (talk) 22:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
S. Rich, I think cyanide poisoning is a real danger. I don't know that "quackery" really captures what the issue is when describing the "alternative cancer beliefs". It's one part refusing to accept what the experts say, one part claiming something else entirely is true, and one part selling the story. jps (talk) 22:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
jps, I'm not sure where you're getting your stats, but please share them with us. We need RS and actual numbers, please. Atsme☯ 22:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what stats did you think were relevant for this BLP? jps (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I found one paper A case of cyanide poisoning from laetrile ingestion is presented as an illustration of the recognition and treatment of cyanide intoxication from 1983. Australia reports: They also noted that one patient had typical symptoms of cyanide poisoning when she ate large amounts of raw almonds, and four others experienced toxic blood cyanide levels, demonstrating that Amygdalin is a toxic drug. The number of deaths appears small (three studies referring to a death). More alarming was the horrible quality control on drugs from Mexico. Death from the cyanide is possible, but unlikely absent excessive doses or uneven quality of the drugs. Collect (talk) 23:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Collect. I was wondering, but knock on wood (hope that doesn't cause this TP to be governed by PS-Fringe), there hasn't been any cancer in my lineage. I might consider selling plasma at discounted rates. I also found the following information and was about to give up eating apples because the darn seeds contain amygdalin - . Perhaps article about apples should be reevaluated as PS based on the belief that "An apple a day keeps the doctor away." Anyone know where that adage came from? Atsme☯ 23:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Amygdalin is typically taken from apricot kernels. See , , . There is no informed dissent fomr the view that cyanide toxicity is a known side effect of laetrile / amygdalin. Seriously, you absolutely need to drop this angle if you are to retain any credibility. It is dangerous quackery. Guy (Help!) 23:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Collect. I think we read the same source and come to different conclusions. You focus on small numbers and I focus on the point where the study is "demonstrating that Amygdalin is a toxic drug." That's the danger. If you prefer we could call it a "toxic alternative cancer treatment". The toxicity here is important because as far as the evidence goes, it is the sum and only effect of the treatment unlike, say, chemotherapy or radiation treatment which are also toxic but have demonstrated anti-cancer effects. jps (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Um. I think we should certainly describe laetrile as dangerous and ineffective in the body, but it is sufficient in the lede to say it is a quack treatment and his beliefs in both the treatment and the conspiracy are unsupported by credible evidence. Certainly we should not describe spades as non-agricultural manual earth-turning implements, but we should not overstep the mark. On the continuum of nutjobbery from Dr. Oz at one extreme to Immanuel Velikovsky at the other, he is Griffin's ideas lie clarified, see below somewhere between Joe Mercola and Alex Jones. He is part of the glorious tradition of classical American cranks described in Idiot America. His ideas are wrong and his website full of hilarious nonsense, but I simply cannot see him as evil or deranged, merely credulous and blinded by self-belief. Guy (Help!) 23:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Guy, I would say that your positioning him on the spectrum of nutjobbery is a BLP violation. (As an aside, why are all the (US) kooks that we have articles on conservatives? Is there an actual correlation between being a notable kook and being a conservative, or is it just that the liberal kooks get better press?) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps it's because in the current political circumstances, mainstream liberals reject left-wing kooks, while mainstream conservatives embrace their right-wing kooks, because they wouldn't get elected without the votes of the right wing fringe. BMK (talk) 03:51, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Arthur, my point is that there is a continuum of mad ideas from Dr. Oz's exploitative but largely harmless quack diets at one end to Velikovsky's fantastical nonsense at the other; along the continuum lie various conspiracy theories, being closer to or further from the axis of sanity. Chemtrails and AIDS denialism are well into the lunatic fringe, suspicion of the acts of government not so much. Big companies spend fortunes trying to manipulate government. As just one example, legislators with vested interests in the supplement industry piloted through, with the aid of costly industry lobbying, laws which effectively exempt the industry form scrutiny. We know about this because it's virtually impossible to keep any conspiracy secret. That's why the secret conspiracies revealed only by pioneering "researchers" with no relevant academic qualifications, tend to be placed on the continuum of nutjobbery.
Maybe you can think of an example of a conspiracy theory (i.e. an accusation of a conspiracy supported only by inference and innnuendo) that became established as fact after running in secret for decades? I can't.
The ideas for which Griffin is cited as an advocate include New World Order conspiracy theories, Big Pharma conspiracy theories, 9/11 conspiracy theories, AIDS conspiracy theories, chemtrail conspiracy theories. If Griffin is not a crank then he is extraordinarily credulous and has a seriously defective mechanism for separating truth from fiction. We don't know because virtually no mainstream sources even look at him, and why would they? He's a largely self-published author of conspiracy books, they are ten a penny.
As to why there are no articles on liberal kooks, I think BMK might be onto something. I can't imagine a liberal version of Rush Limbaugh, and most of the things that liberals assert are evil - things like industry funded astroturfing on climate change and creationist astroturfing on evolution - actually are evil conspiracies. There's a mountain of evidence that a shadowy cabal of oil industry figures is systematically working to undermine the understanding of climate change, whereas there is no credible evidence whatsoever that the Federal Reserve is part of some sinister plot to take away your sovereign citizenship. There's also the fact that the liberal approach to nutjobbery tends to be intelligent satire that makes it into press, whereas the conservative approach to nutjobbery is either apoplectic rage or (if it's ideologically consonant) enthusiastic praise. I can't imagine a right wing version of Private Eye any more than I can imagine a left wing Rush Limbaugh.
The more I look at the issues of sourcing any mainstream commentary on Griffin, the less persuaded I am that he is notable at all. This looks more and more like a side note on Glenn Beck's not-so-illustrious career. The Keep !votes at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/G. Edward Griffin (2nd nomination) are classic of their kind: "brand new" users shouting "keep!" because they like what he says. Liking what he says is not notability, and neither is finding what he says risible. Guy (Help!) 10:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't think JzG is arguing that we say that the person is a nutjob in the article text. However, it is important to keep a straightforward perspective on these matters and we don't want to bend over backwards trying to make the ideas Griffin promotes seem less WP:FRINGE than they are. jps (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


archiving

there are lots of discussions here that i think are done and is getting hard (for me at least) to find stuff. i'm archiving everything above the imposition of the 1RR, and quite a few sections below that where nobody has commented for a while OR where there was either no discussion of actual content going on, or no real disagreement.

I've left sections where actual content proposals are being discussed, and some of the other key sections (1RR imposition, etc).

  • The RfC is at the very top of archive 7, here.
  • The link to the section discussing the AN review of the close is here (the actual link to the AN close is here).

if anybody objects please feel free to revert me...

I am really hoping we can use the Talk page to discuss proposals to add or remove content.

Jytdog (talk) 01:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

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