Misplaced Pages

• Support Problematic editing/begaviour in evidence. A cooling off period may help. Alexbrn 17:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - given Formerly98's slow but steady whitewashing described at Talk:Pharmaceutical industry#Questionable deletions, I don't think it is appropriate to sanction anyone pointing out similar patterns of behavior arising from the same editor. EllenCT (talk) 21:44, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

EllenCT that is irrelevant. This proposal is about BigBaby's behavior, upon which you didn't comment. Jytdog (talk) 04:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

BigBaby is reacting to Formerly 98's behavior, so it is relevant. EllenCT (talk) 06:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

No. There is no excuse for violating COPYVIO, ever, and there are ways to address concerns about behavior without resorting to personal attacks. You are not dealing with Bigbaby's actual behavior. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Per the comments immediately above, I propose a 1 week block for Doors22 for engaging in retaliatory editing. Formerly 98 (talk) 05:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not retaliating for your recent edits. I saw an incident was raised about you on the noticeboard and since I have a lot of experience with your editing behavior I decided to contribute. I hope you appreciate the irony in that you are trying to get me banned for retaliatory editing, simply because I contributed my opinion about your editing history. Many others have complained about you in the past year and some have even filed formal complaints. Speaking of editing history, 90%+ of your edits are for removing or toning down side effect profiles of a variety of drugs or removing criticisms of multinational corporations. This editing history is suggestive of somebody who is a paid editor. Are you in any way receiving money directly or indirectly for your edits on Misplaced Pages? This is not a strictly prohibited practice per Wiki policy but you would certainly be required to fully disclose this. Doors22 (talk) 05:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Because this is ANI and not an article Talk page, I am going to say this once (and only once). I do not have any COIs with respect to the content of any pharmaceutical product or company, and have never performed paid editing. You've made these accusations repeatedly on article Talk pages, in violation of multiple guidelines, and without any supportive documentation other than that you disagreed with the particular edits. The issue here is not COI on my part, but your retaliatory editing and non-stop violations of WP:TALK and WP:GF. Formerly 98 (talk) 12:16, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Striking - I over reacted. I do work a lot on articles related to drugs, pharma, the FDA, etc. A lot of these articles have what I find to be an anti-pharma POV and I have done a lot of work over the past year to bring more NPOV (as that is defined here) to these articles as well as adding content that makes these articles more complete (well-sourced content on their uses, their impact, and controversies (yes, I add negative information too). Along the way I have come under attack by lots of anti-pharma advocates, or as in the case of Doors, editors who lock in on their perceptions of side effects of drugs and give them UNDUE weight here (you would be surprised... or maybe not when you think about it) how much of that is. And many of them are quick to fling charges of COI. And sometimes the accusations of bad faith get under my skin. I lost my cool there, sorry. Formerly 98 (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

These comments specifically relate to your most recent ANI and even earlier ones since this issue keeps coming up. If you want me to extend the "supportive documentation" I am happy to do so. I can easily locate 50+ incidents of you removing, diminishing, or countering statements of litigation, criticisms, or controversies of various pharmaceutical companies or products. In fact this represents the large majority of your work. The remainder is more of the same for other companies like Coca Cola, Mallinckrodt, Dow Chemical among others. I will go ahead and begin to compile this list if other editors would find this helpful. At the very least, please review WP:BITE because you should be assisting new editors rather than driving them away and trying to penalize them. Doors22 (talk) 13:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I see that you struck your comments as soon as I offer to compile a list of supportive documentation, which would be so long it would take hours if done exhaustively. I honestly have yet to see you offer "negative information" and your editing history at the very least has a very strong POV and possibly suggests you are an editor with undisclosed conflict of interests. You also answered you do not have a WP:COIN with respect to the "content of any pharmaceutical product or company" but I noticed this does not fully answer the question if you have any COIs to disclose relating to any of your edits. Again, this is not a problem so long as the WP:COIN is disclosed to give other editors context. I ask other editors involved in this ANI if it would be helpful for me to begin to compile this list of supportive evidence. Again, this is not an unreasonable discussion and I will be willing to find multiple other recent instances where it was believed Formerly98 had a POV or COI related to his editing.Doors22 (talk) 14:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Please provide your list of supportive documentation. Honestly, Doors, lets have the discussion here on the ANI page where it belongs. It is time to put an end to unsupported allegations on the Talk pages. But simply striking poorly sourced negative information is not evidence of COI, anymore than your singleminded focus on criticizing finasteride, Merck, and baldness gurus who have endorsed finasteride is evidence that you work for tort lawyers engaged in litigation against Merck. If you have credible evidence that I have accepted money in exchange for editing services, or that I work for any of the companies whose pages I have edited, that woiuld be appropriate to include in your list. Otherwise you are just speculating in violation of WP:GF Formerly 98 (talk) 14:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Doors, that is yet more assuming bad faith. Editors who react emotionally and then strike shouldn't get punished for acknowledging a mistake and your connecting the strike, to what you wrote, is yet more bad-faith sloppy conspiracy thinking. Likewise, your continued charge of COI against Formerly is without foundation and if you continue to make that charge, I will take action against you for WP:NPA. COI is a very serious issue in WP and I work a lot on it; but ax-griding editors like you, and like BigBaby, reach for that irresponsibly and use it as a weapon in arguments about content. You ~may~ have a case to bring related to WP:ADVOCACY but without actual evidence of COI (and you have none), you must stop making clams of COI.. I am dead serious about that and I will move to bring action against you if you continue. You are warned. Jytdog (talk) 14:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

And Doors, you have a bad history of making personal attacks on the Finasteride article - this is just some of it:

• Back in 2011, when Jfdwolff, an admin, was working on that article with you, you called him a Nazi and accused him of editing in bad faith and claimed he had a a "very strong bias" among other bad behavior. He warned you even then that your account was a ] and that if you kept being uncivil, you risked a longterm block.
• In Oct 2014 Jfdwolff noted noted: "I'm getting a sense of deja vu. Didn't we agree that we needed to be very selective about sources in this highly disputed area? Doors22 isn't anything if not persistent." and later told you "my comment about "persistence" relates to the fact that you've been editing Misplaced Pages as a single-purpose account since February 2011. During that time we have had repeated discussions about using Misplaced Pages to promote awareness of a phenomenon that has been very poorly studied." Doc James was involved in those discussions as well.
• In Oct 2014 you turned another content dispute in the article into a personal attack, now against Formerly, where you wrote: "I added another meta analysis draws the opposite conclusion. They both look at a similar number of studies, but one journal is of a higher quality than the other. Formerly 98, are you getting paid to edit Misplaced Pages? It seems to be a full time endeavor for you since you are editing at all hours of the day. The majority of your edits involve reversions about side effects or information that is not favorable to pharmaceutical companies" and later you pushed it harder, writing " I also noticed you live in San Diego, where a lot of pharmaceutical/biotech companies are located and you have referred to yourself as an "industry guy". For all I know, you could simply own Merck stock and nothing more. Do you have any conflicts of interest that would affect your edits on this article? "
• You followed up on that, with a post on Formerly's page, again accusing him of COI.
• I warned you then to back off the personal attacks and irresponsible accusations of COI.

So really Doors, you are WP:SPA (per your contribs), dedicated to emphasizing the sexual side of effects of Finasteride in WP. You make personal attacks all the time to further your agenda and seem to believe that editors who uphold Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy and MEDRS guideline must be on the take from Big Pharma. As I did before, I suggest you stop making personal attacks to further your agenda here. Jytdog (talk) 15:33, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

These examples are taken out of context and are very dated, going back to 2011. Some of your comments are factually inaccurate too. I do not see how anything I have posted in this incident is a personal attack, visit WP:NPA and please tell me how my behavior fits any of those categories. I have stuck strictly to Formerly98's editing behavior. I am not a complete newbie in Misplaced Pages but I am also far from a seasoned editor. Will you please provide some guidance on what kind of "proof" is required to demonstrate a COI? I am not as familiar with whatever standard is generally accepted and this can be somewhat arbitrary. What you are suggesting to me seems like it is literally impossible to show evidence that an editor has a conflict of interest if he/she chooses not to disclose any but showing POV or advocacy (which would result from paid editing or some other COI) should be no problem. Doors22 (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

COI and edits by Formerly 98

I specifically request that @Doors22: presents the list of evidence that he feels proves that I have a WP:COI for evaluation as part of this ANI review. I further request that the list be evaluated by the other editors here, and that he be asked to stop making these accusations on article Talk pages in the event that the evidence is not found to be supportive. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I will certainly oblige you but it may take me some time to get to this. I will be away beginning tomorrow evening and may not be able to respond fully until sometime next week. 04:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doors22 (talk • contribs)

User:Formerly98 has received attention off Misplaced Pages regarding alleged COI / POV editing. The website www.rxisk.org features an article specifically about User:Formerly98 It shows a previous version of user page, discusses his deletion nomination of an article on Post-SSRI Sexual Dysfunction, and inquires: “Do we expect Misplaced Pages posts to be more conservative than the label produced by the pharmaceutical company?” which is apparently referring to Formerly98’s work in “toning down” the side effects on the Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin articles.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Formerly explicitly says there, that he has no COI. More bad-faith editors crying COI - and you have now joined the ranks - doesn't any more real. BoboMeowCat, that if you continue making unsubstantiated charges of COI I will seek action against you. You are warned. COI is not something to throw around in a content dispute. And you, like Doors, have POV-pushed on side effects of drugs. (in your case, asthma as an effect of acetaminophen. You are another editor who has tried to violate NPOV and MEDRS and made personal attacks as you pushed your POV. Jytdog (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I request that we just play this out without threats of disciplinary action and have these arguments evaluated by the communityFormerly 98 (talk) 02:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

What is going on here is a witch-hunt by a newbie angry editor (OP), and two well-known POV-pushers. I don't think going down the "throw down" path is good for anybody or WP, but as you will. Jytdog (talk) 02:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

We have 3 editors here making the same accusation in nearly every interaction I have with them, and several others who have not yet posted on this thread. I suggest we ask the community to evaluate, and then we will have a consensus one way or the other. At some point we need a clearly voiced community decision, either that I am allowed to edit in peace and without constant aspersions, or that the overall community believes that I need to change my editing practices. I don't see that as a "throw down". What I don't want is to be back here next month. Formerly 98 (talk) 03:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that. Put that way, this makes a lot of sense. Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

In my experience here, it doesn't seem like warnings get the point across that this behavior in inappropriate to editors that do this (often with an ax to grind). I wouldn't see interaction bans for certain users completely unwarranted depending on how the conversation goes. I'm not seeing anything right now that shows a legitimate COI or even POV concern on your part Formerly, so it's still looking like these accusations against you are aspersions at best. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Bob. The Post-SSRI Sexual Dysfunction Article was nominated by me for deletion, but was deleted by community consensus, so that may not be the best example. But here are the Diffs for Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin before and after I rewrote both, removing about about half of the total content of each and adding new material. I'd request the community to examine these for POV, as I am overwhelmingly responsible for the current state of these articles, though some of the work was performed as an IP editor and some under a previous username.

Ciprofloxacin Diff

Levofloxacin

It really isn't very helpful for you to provide your own examples of how you are a balanced editor. Others would have to independently look through the history of your edits to verify for themselves. They will see the overwhelming majority of your posts involve toning down side effect profiles and criticisms of large corporations.Doors22 (talk) 04:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Those weren't my choices they were BobMeowCat's. Formerly 98 (talk) 04:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Basically we follow WP:MEDRS for medical content. While he and I may occasionally disagree, User:Formerly 98 uses high quality sources nearly all the time and thus I have not significant concerns. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand that he uses what is deemed to be high quality sources for what he adds but this alone does not make a NPOV editor. Removing material that you don't want on an article does not require you provide any sources at all. There is the famous quote, 'there is no such thing as truth, only the presentation of facts'. One can easily finds one reason or another that fits some kind of policy to remove unwanted material and create a desired perspective. All the while avoiding providing any sources if one wishes.Doors22 (talk) 04:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

My 2¢: basing a COI argument relative to a manufacturer's Rx info (the label) is a a bit asinine, as these vary by country due to regulatory/approval processes for the document. E.g., a Therapeutic Goods Administration approved label by Aspen pharmaceuticals lists suicidality, aggression, and homicidal tendencies as potential adverse effects of amphetamine in spite of the fact that it acknowledges elsewhere in the document that these are just isolated aftermarket reports w/ no comparison to placebo (these events could in fact occur less frequently vs people on a placebo). The current USFDA-approved label by Amedra pharmaceuticals is thankfully much less hand-wavy and doesn't list suicidality or homicidal tendencies as "potential adverse effects" and further notes that there is no systematic evidence of any relationship between stimulants and aggressive behaviors (this is a comparison between arbitrary conjecture and evidence-based medicine ).
So, with all that said, it raises the question: which label are we comparing the WP article to, an evidence-based label or one which would better serve as toilet paper than a wikipedia citation? The way we at WP:MED resolve issues like this is to apply WP:MEDRS, which is something I know Formerly does based upon my interactions with him in every article we've both worked on.

v t e Nuts
True, or botanical nuts	Acorn Beech American beech European beech Breadnut Candlenut Chestnut Sweet chestnut Hazelnut American hazel Beaked hazel European hazel Filbert Asian hazel Kola nut Kurrajong Malabar chestnut Palm nut Red bopple nut Yellow walnut
Drupes	Almond Australian cashew nut Betel nut Borneo tallow nut Breadfruit Cashew Chilean hazel Coconut Durian Gabon nut Hickory Mockernut hickory Pecan Shagbark hickory Shellbark hickory Johnstone River almond Irvingia gabonensis Jack nut Karuka Planted karuka Wild karuka Mongongo Panda oleosa Pekea nut Pili nut Pistachio Walnut Black walnut Butternut English walnut Heartnut
Gymnosperms	Cycad Burrawang nut Ginkgo nut Araucaria spp. Bunya nut Monkey-puzzle nut Pine nut Chilgoza pine Colorado pinyon Korean pine Mexican pinyon Single-leaf pinyon Stone pine
Angiosperms	Brazil nut Macadamia Macadamia nut Queensland macadamia nut Paradise nut Peanut Peanut tree Soybean

TLDR: arguing that Formerly has a COI simply by comparing his edits to the adverse effects on an arbitrary label is completely retarded. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 04:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Both Formerly98 diff and Jytdog diff joined in to remove referenced COI statements on the Glaxo Smith Kline article. Formerly98 and removed the claim from the Johnson and Johnson page diff AlbinoFerret 04:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Diffs please Formerly 98 (talk) 04:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It is late so I don't have time to pull up specific diffs but Formerly98 was very active on the e-cigarette page until it was temporarily frozen. I initially thought it was so strange that he was more or less exclusively involved in making pro-drug statements while being anti-e-cigarettes. But then I did some very quick research and saw the pharmaceutical industry was strongly lobbying against e-cigarettes because it threatens their existing products (ie Nicorette). In the example above, Formerly98 removed this mention from the GSK article because it lacked 'notability' which is a very common page from his playbook. At the very least, it is suspicious and certainly indicates a strong point of view.Doors22 (talk) 04:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Diffs please. thanks. Formerly 98 (talk) 04:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff Here is one example from Mallinckrodt where you reverted another user's edit that discussed the company's history of illegal waste dumping and justified this by saying the company had a "complex series of takeovers and spinouts" so that historical actions are no longer associated with the current company.

Thank you, I assume then that you disagree with this edit. How does it establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff2 In another example, you deleted 2 sentences on sleep talking caused by Ambien because you arbitrarily deemed them to be too rare.

I reduced the number of sentences from 6 to 4. I understand that you disagree. What is the basis of your belief that 6 is the correct number? How does this establish COI? Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff3 Here you edit David Healy's article (who is the doctor who independently brought attention to your edits off wikipedia) and you felt the need to replace a neutral tone with a more aggressive tone.

I see that I attibuted a statement made by Healy to Healy instead of stating his conclusionhs in Misplaced Pages's voice. I understand you disagree. How does this establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff4 Another example of a separate editor believing you to have a bias and POV which you correctly decided to strike. Notably this is on the e-cigarette page.

This appears to be a Talk page discussion, so maybe off-topic. Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff5 Here you completely erase discussion of regulatory capture on the pharmaceutical industry page, despite it being a widely accepted topic of controversy that generates substantial discussion in the outside world and academic circles.

I'm not seeing "completely erase", what I see is a reduction from 4 sentences to 2. I assume you believe that 4 was the correct number of sentences? How does this establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff6 This one is quite telling. You deleted well sourced but negative facts about Merck that discussed unethical actions they took during past controversies. You wrote the article should "tell the story and let the readers decide", but really you just erased the negative evidence which was really descriptive and not judgmental.

This was probably not my best edit, but it is one of many that I made to the article, including restoring a section describing the company's products, which one editor had deleted as "unimportant". How does this establish COI? Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff7 Here you completely remove a section from the pharmaceutical industry about "me-too" drugs which is another very commonly discussed issue that obviously belongs on this page in some fashion.

True, but the section was actually pretty balanced and not all that critical of the industry, and as the edit summary notes, it was based on out of date refs. How does this establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is just a very small sample of what look like POV/advocacy editing to me and there are hundreds of more examples. I strongly suggest other users take a look through his contribution history because his contribution history looks like it was written by a PR professional (at least to me). Doors22 (talk) 05:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I second this recommendation. I described what I saw in their editing, specifically with the Depression and Astro Zeneca articles circa May 31 and early June 2014, here. Seeing just a few day's worth of this person's edits (spindoctoring on steroids) was the final straw for me before throwing up my hands and ending my editing here at WP. petrarchan47tc 07:45, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It was the Anti-depressant article that first alerted me to this activity. Here is a talk page section to help navigate, but I am unwilling to spend time digging for diffs. If one were to peruse F98's contribs in early June 2014, they would see what I saw. It doesn't take a sleuth in this case, it's extremely obvious pro-Pharma, SPA editing. petrarchan47tc 21:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So your position is that you are recommending sanctions but "are not willing to put in the time to generate the diffs"? Hmm. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Petrarchan, could you please provide actual article diffs? Thanks. Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think merely providing diff's is the best way to go about this because other users who don't have history discussing matters with Formerly98 will completely miss out from seeing the whole context of his edits which is very important. Do any more experienced editors have any suggestions for how to best proceed with this COI/advocacy issue? I mentioned I will be away for the next few days starting tomorrow and would like to contribute to this conversation so please don't interpret my absence as though I am finished with the discussion.

I do think it is pretty telling that Formerly98's 'spin doctoring' drove away the editor above and when I have more time will be able to point out examples where he proactively drove other editors away. I also think it is telling that he tried to get me banned because I tried to contribute to this discussion and he attempted to backed down when he was concerned the issue might escalate to an investigation of his behavior.Doors22 (talk) 12:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Doors, I think what you need to do here is to establish some criteria for "COI" and "POV editing" that don't measure POV by the distance between the viewpoint expressed and your own opinions.

I think your statement that I "backed down when he was concerned that the issue might escalate into an invesigation of his behavior" is hard to reconcile with the fact that I invited the exact discussion we are having now. And so far, all you have brought to the table are content disputes. Formerly 98 (talk) 13:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Taken as a whole; formely98 contribuion history is that of a duck, his edit/delete arguments are that of a duck, and his tactics even on this ANI are that of a duck. Formelly98 is a duck.

lets not forget, that his initial response here to the fraudulent statement he added to the Ley article "oh it was a different reference i cited, but now its behind a paywall" a.k.a we cant verify his claim now, i easly demonstrated was a total lie ; it was a NY Times archived article that has been behind a paywall for years. He felt comfortable because due to jytdog theatrics, they went after me and let him slide. But the moment i reached some kind of understanding with editor niel, and editor doors was also accusing him, formely98 felt the shift in the tide, paniced and changed his tune, first he erased his attack on doors and then also changed his story about the fraudulent statement he added "im sorry i don't know how that happened". He should be banned just for lying and manipulating the ANI panel.Bigbaby23 (talk) 13:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I obviously disagree with this for reasons cited above. Importantly, I never claimed that the source was in the paywalled article only that I thought it might be but could not check it for myself. Formerly 98 (talk) 13:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I am here because recent edits to an article flagged by my database queries showing heavy editing on economically sensitive topics compelled me to examine Formerly 98's contributions for the first time. I urge administrators and other interested parties to examine the issues raised at Talk:Pharmaceutical industry#Questionable deletions where Formerly 98 has over the past few years been slowly scrubbing the most uncomfortable criticism from that article. EllenCT (talk) 21:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

To be fair Ellen, its not strictly true that you "felt compelled to examine Formerly 98's contributions for the first time" based on a database search. You and I have taken opposing stances on multiple issues over the last year, recently at Pharmaceutical industry, Hydraulic Fracturing, and Electronic cigarette. And your proposals at Pharmaceutical industry failed to gain consensus. Given the support I recieved from other editors there, who as group rejected your suggested changes, how can this be used as evidence of POV editing or COI? Formerly 98 (talk) 00:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

This is completely untrue. The group did not reject her edits by any means. They were discussed constructively and a compromise was reached. I have yet to see you engage in this kind of discussion. Any editor who takes the time to do the research on this investigation will see you are not telling the truth.Doors22 (talk) 04:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

In all of our previous interactions, I had not, nor did I feel it would be a worthwhile use of my time, to look through your specific contributions instead of just individual article histories. That changed when I saw you trying to obscure a pharmaceutical company's corporate inversion in the same manner that a new SPA who had been reverted six times for it had just done. EllenCT (talk) 06:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Formerly 98's response to the comments above

I deliberately opened up this discussion in order to illustrate the level and type of personal attacks that I deal with on a daily basis as an editor here. Above we have over 2000 words of criticism from editors who accuse me of being a POV editor and having undisclosed COIs. Representative evidence includes:

• My removal of WP:COPYVIO from the article Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration (evidence of being a undisclosed paid editor)

his indescriminate removal of negative criticism some were copyvio and some were not, and that was in the Herbert Ley article and if he couldn't think of a reason or pduedo reason that would some how pass to remove material, he would add stuff to tone down the criticism, and when he even didn't have that, he simply fabricated a sentence and added it, to yet again, nalify criticism. In the FDA article he removed a previous head of FDA criticism against big pharma influence in the fda, giving balony reasons.Bigbaby23 (talk) 04:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

you are further discrediting yourself with this ranting, Bigbaby. Jytdog (talk) 04:49, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I have been criticized on the website of a virulently anti-industry activist and author. If fringe websites are criticizing my edits, I'm not sure that should be viewed as a problem, should it?
• One editor noted that I edited Electronic cigarette in a way that was perceived as negative, and noting that some pharmaceutical companies sell competing quit smoking products, concluded that this was evidence that my edits were driven by a desire to increase pharmaceutical company profits. This reasoning seems a little circular to me.
• Several authors present as examples of "POV pushing" changes that I made that were supported by consensus upon challenge. I'm not sure how I can win consensus so consistently if I am a fringe POV pusher.

• Pharmaceutical industry, in which my edits were challenged and supported by editor consensus
• Another example of my "POV/COI editing" is the deletion of the Post-SSRI Sexual Disorder article, which was not deleted by me by by community consensus after I nominated it
• Finally, we have the Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin articles, which I rewrote and which by community consensus, remain in almost exactly the state I left them in when I finished editing them a year ago. How do extreme POV articles that get 1000 hits a day remain almost completely unedited for a year when they are so commonly accessed?

Some of the other remarks simply seem silly. One editor links to an exchange that occurred several months ago that "drove her to stop editing". But her editing history shows she is still active. Another claims to have discovered by POV editing by a database search, but s/he and I have a history of editing disagreements that far predates the reported date of the search that my name putatively appeared in.

I respectfully request closure with a warning to all that WP:GF will be more vigorously enforced in the future, and that I be guaranteed the ability to edit here in peace without being continuously the subject of speculative personal attacks by those who view disagreement with their position as proof positive of paid editing and COI.' As noted here by the Head of the Misplaced Pages Medicine Project and other medical editors, my editing has generally been well sourced and high quality. I deserve to be allowed to go about my business without being abused by those who believe personal attacks are the best argument of first resort. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:53, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I really don't think you get to be the one to determine when closure has been attained for an investigation about your behavior. It also shows you were not acting in good faith when you engaged in this discussion to prove a point. The problem generally is not with what information you add to articles but what you delete. Your justifications are very frequently off base and indicative you are trying to erase negative information. Let me ask you - why are you the only editor that seems to be getting a negative response from many others when you claim your edits are objective and high quality?Doors22 (talk) 03:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is another diff that shows an edit I found particularly repugnant. You erased a reference that a pharmaceutical company produced Zyklon B, the poisonous gas that was used by the Nazis to murder millions of people. Your justification, again, was very weak and you tried to say that Bayer was responsible for manufacturing the poison, the the conglomerate. This makes no sense as it is on the Bayer article that you thought this was irrelevant, but this would certainly warrant more than a passing mention even on a parent level article. I don't always disagree with your edits or points but I almost always disagree with the tactics you use to bury negative information. I am not inviting you to respond to this message but I am including this for other editors to see, evaluate, and comment.Doors22 (talk) 03:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

That reason given was "Bayer <> IG Farben". That diff was a month ago, and there have been about 20 edits by other editors since then, and it has stuck. So hm. And, btw, way to pull the Nazi argument. Lovely. You have reached the Godwin's law stage of desperate argumentation. Jytdog (talk) 04:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions of the historical actions of actual nazis. EllenCT (talk) 06:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm unfamiliar with Godwin's law but after looking at the article it certainly does not apply to this discussion. I never compared him to the Nazis but drew attention to the fact he erased corporate ties to the Nazis on various articles. However, you are wrong that IG Farben <> Bayer as they were the same company during the years of the Holocaust - the company was split up after the war. Formerly98 has also removed instances of corporate link to the Nazis in other articles as well - Coca Cola is another one. This latest justification is also off-point and repugnant. 'It is OK and not notable because everybody had links to the Nazis.' Another two solid examples of his pattern of whitewashing corporate controversy. I request other editors contribute because JYTDog has a long history of collaborating with Formerly98 on many articles and is not being objective about this. When I get the time, I am going to retrieve instances where other editors have directly had similar problems with him but that may need to wait until next week.Doors22 (talk) 05:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Not quite sure what the point is that some are trying to make here, but when an appropriate argument was made, I personally restored to this article the fact that Bayer-IG Farben used slave labor during the same war after it had been removed by others. Not exactly the behavior expected of a good Nazi, is it?

So this provides yet another example of this same group of editors cherry picking data to make their point and accusing me of POV editing for changes that were approved by editor consensus. Once again I respectfully request closure and a warning to all participants in this thread that WP:GF will be rigorously enforced with sanctions moving forward. Formerly 98 (talk) 07:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

On the cotrary. This proves what a manipulative liar you are. You were vigorously against adding the nazi info to the Bayer article, with all sorts of your usual twisted arguments. You decided to re-insert that paragraph only when it was made clear to you, and you checked it yourself, that Bayer's own website history page, also tells this fact in their wwii history chronichalBigbaby23 (talk) 10:56, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Again, do not pretend like I called you a Nazi because that is simply untrue and I have been completely civil during this discussion unlike yourself. After extensive discussion and pushback on the Talk:Bayer page you reluctantly added back a mention that the company used slave labor for a concentration camp to prevent more serious material from coming back. Hypothetically, if my agenda were to make Bayer look good I'd rather mention the use of labor than being accomplice to millions of murders. Moreover, you characterize this as being one instance of many companies that collaborated with the Nazis but completely fail to mention Bayer was the only company to create its own concentration camp, Monowitz, during the war. Request for closure declined until you actually get feedback from independent editors who review your history. Your easily anticipated defense that we are cherry picking data is why I have repeatedly requested editors look through your history holistically.Doors22 (talk) 12:56, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Your note states that I readded the slave camp material after "extensive pushback". Thats not true. Someone else had deleted it and I added it back as soon as I saw a persuasive Talk page post that convinced me it belonged there. Not only did I re-add it, I debated with the person who deleted it and wanted to remove it again, arguing that it should be left in place Formerly 98 (talk) 13:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm starting to get a little dizzy from all your spin. Other editors - check out the actual discussion to see how it evolved from start to finish. I actually think this discussion is not in the proper place which is why we have not seen feedback other than the few other users that had problems with Formerly98. I'll do some research to figure out proper protocol and reset discussion in the proper location when I get the chance. Doors22 (talk) 14:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Viktorengström's SPA campaign on Stalinism?

Viktorengström (talk · contribs) did his first edit on 3 January 2015 to remove a category that Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia were show trials. Curiously his next edits were to an American historian to has been accused of trying to rehabilitate Stalin, which relates to the issue at hand which is very narrow editing area related to Stalinism, communism and a bit to Nazism as well.

He removed category Holodomor perpetrators from Vyacheslav Molotov despite that the article has sources that he was personally related to the origins of the famine. He removed a notorious Nazi judge from the "See also" section of Czech communist judges , only to add the very same judge to a present-day US Republican prosecutor and Joseph McCarthy articles! He likes to remove all mentions of "repression" in the Soviet Union and "Stalinism": , , , , , , , . A part of this campaign included renaming the category Functionaries of the Stalinist regime in Poland in articles despite the fact that his category did not exist, for which Poeticbent notified the user. While "Stalinism" shouldn't be used as an epithet, clearly the user has a problem with it even when it simply refers to Stalin's regime.

Apparently he went even as far to POV-push that the Great Purge didn't include show trials.. Lastly, he removed propaganda category from East German state political journalist but added it to two anti-communist advocacy groups , . Classic.

You can go through all of the users edits, there's not much. They just consist of that kind of small POV tweaks and categories, never using talk pages or edit summaries. Is this WP:SPA or just business as usual? --Pudeo' 15:27, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, in looking, on the first edit, "Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia" he did remove "show trials" with a note explaining that there wasn't any references to back up that claim, and he's right about that.

I saw no discussion on the talk pages about that particular revert, but did see talk about "show trials" with one user claiming "common knowledge" as a reason to add it in, which , even if it is, doesn't square with Misplaced Pages's insistence on reliable sources, so I'd say that revert is correct. The other removals of "show trials" was pretty much the same thing, with the judges, yeah, it was a dumb move to move a judge into a spot that says he's a current judge, that fails reliability, so while his reverts aren't all vandalistic, some are definitely wrong , but not all are, some are helpful. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:08, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

That's true. But what makes it impossible for me to assume good faith are cases of that kind of dualistic "retaliatory" POV-pushing: so there's this notorious Nazi judge in "See also" of communist regime judges, better remove it and moments later add it to articles about right-wing judges in the US.--Pudeo' 18:52, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I quickly checked a few their edits. Some are definitely POV and hardly supported by RS. Others amount to vandalism. For example, this edit links an article to a category that does not exist. My very best wishes (talk) 21:16, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

• Got my attention. Here we go. (1) Arch Getty is an ultra-serious, big boy full professor of history at UCLA specializing in the history of the Soviet 1930s LINK. It is absolutely tendentious bullshit to try and pigeonhole him as a historian who "has been accused of trying to rehabilitate Stalin." The OP has already lost me. (2) There is no easy definition of "show trial." Individual mileage may vary. (3) "Holodomor" (Good translation = "Hunger terror") is a pejorative term which has great favor among Ukrainian nationalists who assert that the 1932-33 famine catastrophe was a conscious act of anti-Ukrainian genocide. This thesis is dubious at best unless a million deaths in Kazakhstan and Russia were also conscious acts of anti-Ukrainian genocide (not to mention the abject lack of archival support of the notion to emerge after the fall of the USSR). The use of the tendentious phrase "Holomodor perpetrator" is a good measure of where the OP is coming from. Get the boomerang out... Carrite (talk) 22:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 22:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

  Category:Holodomor perpetrators is an existing category and I don't have anything to do with it. The European Parliament, UN General Assembly and OECD among others by the way recognize Holodomor as a genocide. Perhaps it's just your orthodox pro-Soviet communist POV that reeks here. --Pudeo' 00:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Now that's a nasty thing to call a Social Democrat, oh Fair-And-Balanced one... Carrite (talk) 02:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Upon further review, the fact that you can't tell my politics after 55,000 edits, many on Communist-related topics, I am gonna take as a compliment... I know YOUR politics though...) Carrite (talk) 02:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure if any action would be necessary, but just would like to notice the following. (1) Arch Getty is indeed s a revisionist (may be even a Stalinist) historian. Giving link (above) to his own web site does not prove anything. Getty is mostly known for claiming that Stalin did not plan Great Terror. See here, for example: "One of Getty’s more significant contributions to revisionism was the shifting of blame for the bloody purges from Stalin to Nikolai Yezhov". He sees "Great Terror as the consequence of the USSR’s newfound social mobility and concludes that in such chaotic political flux inadvertent atrocities were bound to be committed.". (2) There is no any controversy what Soviet "show trial" means. (3) "Holodomor" in Russian and Ukrainian is not a pejorative term. "Death by Hunger" is merely a translation, nothing more. There is a scholarly opinion (e.g. by Robert Conquest) that a million of deaths in Kazakhstan were also an act of genocide; this does not disprove anything about Holodomor. My very best wishes (talk) 04:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you remove your libelous insinuation, for that is exactly what it is. And I know your politics, too. Carrite (talk) 17:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Addenda): The irony of you lauding the poet Robert Conquest as a historian and covering your User Page with poetry is not lost on me. Conquest was a Cold War era polemicist and the "revisionist" movement of the 1970s and 1980s (Stephen Cohen, Roberta Manning, Lynne Viola, Arch Getty, Robert Thurston, ad infinitim) is the mainstream academic history of today, for those of you at home trying to follow the game without a scorecard. Carrite (talk) 17:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean Stephen F. Cohen who has been described as "most prominent intellectual apologist for Putin" ? My very best wishes (talk) 22:25, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• WHOA, was looking at another ANI and saw this! J Arch Getty is a Stalinist and pro-Stalin? LOL! That paragraph from World Affairs is laughable - if I say that Yezhov was a diabolical, manipulative little bastard in his own right who thought he was doing the right thing by committing the horrible atrocities of the Great Purge, does that make the execution-order signing Stalin somehow less responsible? Does that make me a "pro-Stalin Stalinist"? Apparently it does to the right-wingers at World Affairs.

As for Viktorengström, his edits to J Arch Getty were hardly controversial and more anecdotal, including correcting the broken external link to his personal page at UCLA (undone by My very best wishes, thanks!, which btw was corrected by me, coincidentally, the next day! I'm guilty of not reading this article thoroughly as My very best wishes's edits done while claiming Getty is a "well-known revisionist" are WP:UNDUE and will soon by pwned). I think it's extreme of the nominator in this ANI to say Viktorengström "went even as far to POV-push" by removing "show trials" from one sentence about Max Eastman, which to me is not necessarily incorrect, yes, they had the three Moscow Trials, rightly in the Soviet Show Trials category. But the millions of other Great Purge victims never got a trial. (Going back to Getty: By 1937, Yezhov said, "Yo Stalin, let's increase this number and kill a whole bunch of people. It's way more efficient if we don't have to deal with trials." (as seen in and concured with in this review of Getty's book on Yezhov, which Simon Sebag Montefiore calls a "fascinating and essential biography, which tells us more about the Kremlin and Soviet Russia than most history books"—I guess Montefiore failed to pick up that it was revisionist propaganda like the tinfoil-hat wearers at World Affairs). I don't know enough about Eastman to know if his change of view specifically was the Moscow Trials or the Purge in general.

HOWEVER, as far as the non-existent category change... his change from "Category:Functionaries of the Stalinist regime in Poland" to "Category:Functionaries of the People's Republic of Poland" is WAY better! I don't understand why "Category:Functionaries of the Stalinist regime in Poland" first is named in this narrow way from an encyclopedic point of view, while there is no corresponding article for the Polish People's Republic. Really? There were no functionaries in the People's Republic of Poland? (note there are NO other categories or subcategories referring to "The Stalinist regime of Poland" in "Category:Polish People's Republic" and Stalinism in Poland redirects to a section in the country's history article.) I agree Viktorengström doesn't seem to be your average neutral editor as his articles here are all related to the same topics, and adding the "See also" link to the Nazi prosecutor on Jeanine Pirro's page is, while hilarious, definitely inappropriate, overall I don't think this escalates to the level of an ANI or that he is a WP:SPA with a "campaign on Stalinism" but this ANI is helpful as it does shed some light on the non-NPOV of other editors. —Мандичка 😜 02:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

What was a reason for all this excitement? The thread is about a barely active user Viktorengström. I do believe that my edits on this page were reasonable. Beyond reverting an edit by a suspicious red-linked account debated on the ANI (I have a reason to believe this is someone's secondary account), I only made this edit. As one can see, the assertion about Arch Getty in my edit was supported not only by the article from World Affairs, but also by a number of books. I did not check these books, but I trust other editors who used them earlier. If you disagree with my edit(s), please discuss them on article talk page (why you did not do it so far?), prior to bringing them on the ANI in a thread about unrelated user with whom I never interacted.My very best wishes (talk) 03:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

In brief, another RS, which was there before my edit (diff above), tells about the paradox that Getty's work is rehabilitating Stalin's reputation just when Soviet historians were exposing the details of Stalin's crimes against the Soviet people. That does qualify Arch Getty as a revisionist if not outright Stalinist historian.My very best wishes (talk) 04:04, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Request for block - IP disrupting a course with students, no rationale given

Hello. I have a group of students in a course. Some IP has said that our course promotes vandalism by posting on the course page and deleting our course page. They give no further explanation. This is a disruptive harassing stalker. Can these IPs please be blocked?

• User:72.68.239.80
• User:70.121.211.218

I am happy to talk with anyone but this disrupts a group of people and this user obviously knows enough to engage on Misplaced Pages, because they know how to disrupt many people at once. I did not notify this user on their userpage per WP:TROLL. I requested page protection at the protection board. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:10, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The 70.121 IP has no edits, and the 72.68 IP has not been active since 27 February. I don't think a block is in order at this time. However, if the problem recurs, then protection (if not already done) or blocks can be undertaken. —C.Fred (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Is there anyone else that gets their own IP listed on the history page of the course? Known bug? Rettetast (talk) 17:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

• The answer to that question is yes. I have that exact same issue - Bluerasberry, are you thus sure those aren't your own IPs? Very weird bug. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:28, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Yeah. My own IP also shows up as well when I saw the page. Epic Genius (talk) 17:30, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Me too. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 17:37, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Me six. I philed a bug on Phabricator. Keegan (talk) 18:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Note that the proper IP in question is 72.68.239.80 (talk · contribs), as found in the database by a developer at phabricator. Mamyles (talk) 15:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

It also appears that the course pages cannot be protected. OhanaUnited 16:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

2015 CheckUser and Oversight appointments: Invitation to comment on candidates

The Arbitration Committee is seeking to appoint additional users to the CheckUser and Oversight teams, and is now seeking comments from the community regarding the candidates who have volunteered for this role.

Interested parties are invited to review the appointments page containing the nomination statements supplied by the candidates and their answers to a few standard questions. Community members may also pose additional questions and submit comments about the candidates on the individual nomination pages or privately via email to arbcom-en-clists.wikimedia.org.

Following the consultation phase, the committee will take into account the answers provided by the candidates to the questions and the comments offered by the community (both publicly and privately) along with all other relevant factors before making a final decision regarding appointments.

The consultation phase is scheduled to end 23:59, 18 March 2015 (UTC), and the appointments are scheduled to be announced by 31 March 2015.

For the Arbitration Committee, Courcelles (talk) 06:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this

Heather Bresch

This article and a related controversy page have recently been brought to BLPN several times by Collect and myself. In the most recent string I suggested it was more appropriate for ANI at this time.

There seems to be a lot of personal attacks, trolling, assumptions of bad faith, combative editing and WP:NOTBUREAU that have created a toxic and un-productive environment on the article. For example, @Hipocrite: and @Nomoskedasticity: have both been borderline trolling me, by sarcastically saying their edits are for auction, that they can be paid to leave any article alone, and in Hipocrite's case asking if I was paid to defame him. Here the same two editors accuse me of spinning the article by intentionally omitting major controversies, but refuse to provide any sources regarding the alleged omissions and in other cases have accused me of being unethical, spinning the article and so on.

I don't feel this assumption of bad-faith is warranted, especially since I provided sources to verify beyond a doubt that the MBA controversy belongs on the page, pro-actively suggested adding COI concerns with her father and a debate about her tax inversion strategy. Additionally, they have repeatedly reverted well-sourced edits or edits supported by consensus (see @Jimbo:'s comments here), using very bureaucratic, technical rationales, like requiring consensus be established on the Talk page of the article, rather than noticeboards or Talk pages, or saying consensus is not clear enough.

Not doing the whole self-righteous charade of demanding blocks - just think it needs attention from editors experienced in handling this kind of drama.

Disclosure: Please note I have a disclosed COI. CorporateM (Talk) 21:47, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Let's see this ANI post for what it is: a paid editor is trying (at his client's behest) to make this BLP a more promotional piece and then complaining here when other editors don't agree that this is what should happen. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:24, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Hipocrite and Nomoskedasticity have both been warned previously for this type of conduct by User:Jehochman. These are also the type of comments that when an editor seeks help on an ANI board to deal with issues, that cause them to lose faith on Misplaced Pages and eventually quit. The sniping, specifically the comments about others and having been paid by someone to defame another is nearing harassment. Also Corporate, can you link us to where the consensus was at BLPN? I see some discussions but not like a full on consensus of the content. Tutelary (talk) 23:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tutelary:Within this diff are links to the BLPN post, two user Talk pages and an IRC respondent (no link for that last one obviously, but that was @DragonflySixtyseven: who made the edit after picking up on the IRC chat) that all agreed the prior controversy section was UNDUE (it was pretty obvious). Though there wasn't explicit consensus for exactly how to handle it (trim and merge or summary style), but it's this kind of editing that concerns me; where the two editors edit boldly, but then require an impossibly high margin of iron-clad consensus for anyone else to make changes and often find trivial or unsubstantiated reasons to reject edits from others.

It's worth noting that @Jehochman:'s warning was given after these edits, however it appears as though this may be representative of their editing conduct in general or at least in other COI situations and part of a long string of disputes between these two and Collect. CorporateM (Talk) 00:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have very much seen this type of editing before and it's even being stated within this thread that Hipocrite likes to argue while sniping comments at people. The comments about how you're apparently being paid to cast aspersions against him are not convincing and are starting to inhibit the ability to discuss this matter at ANI--which is a frequent problem here I might add. Also particularly because this is a BLP, they are afforded much large protection via the larger WP:BLP policy, the bar might be higher for sourcing. But regarding their editing habits in general, if their comments on ANI are any representation of how they argue on the talk page (without even looking at it), then they need to be barred from this topic. Tutelary (talk) 01:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Again, you have stated that I edited boldly against consensus. Please show me where I did such on the page. Use diffs. I'll be sending Mylan a bill for my time, by the way. Hipocrite (talk) 00:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Hipocrite is correct in that I referred to both of them collectively as if they were a single person, but some very specific comments may refer to just one or the other. CorporateM (Talk) 00:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So really you have no comment about me except that I don't like you whitewashing your clients? Which of what you wrote applies to me, specifically? This comment cost Mylan $50. Hipocrite (talk) 00:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Someone is being paid to take me to ANI? No thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 00:12, 5 March 2015 (UTC) Still further "they have repeatedly reverted well-sourced edits?" Where have I done so? This paid aspersion casting needs to stop. Hipocrite (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Hipocrite, I thought you had better manners than that. Drmies (talk) 01:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Hipocrite, you aren't convincing anybdoy with this sort of argument. Please stop. Companies, like it or not, have an interest in seeing that their articles and their related biographies are accurate. We can't just blow them off when our articles have an impact on their real lives of people who work at these businesses. Please be patient and listen to whatever concerns are presented, and don't be disrespectful or dismissive. Jehochman 15:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Companies do NOT have an interest that their articles are "accurate". They have an interest that content about them shows them in a good light. Nobody gets a bonus or dividend payment because their Misplaced Pages article is "accurate". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• You know what, fuck it. I'll avoid all Mylan related topics from here-on-out. Enjoy Pepsipedia, brought to you by IBM. Hipocrite (talk) 15:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have never attempted to position her government lobbying as director of government relations as a philanthropic effort. On the contrary, I have provided excerpts from the source material to assist in making it more clear how the legislation benefits Mylan. I did mention on @Drmies: Talk page that editing patterns suggest the two editors may be colluding offline, but immediately struck-out the comment as unsubstantiated. Mylan does not know there is a discussion at ANI or that these two editors are giving me a hard time; my edits are my own.

I have not actually requested a ban, but suggested diplomatic intervention was needed. Someone would have to do a deeper dive into their editing to see if a BAN was needed, but off-the-cuff an IBAN with all disclosed COIs paid editors (the behavioral problems seems to be exclusive to paid editing at least for Hipocrite) seems worth considering. Again, someone would have to investigate their behavior in a broader sense than just this one article for that kind of thing. CorporateM (Talk) 16:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

As much as I dislike agreeing with a corporate anything, let alone a minion, I see no need to censure (or bitch at) CorpM here, who I believe has been going about this the proper way. The current version of the article isn't bad--I suppose this material, added by Nomoskedasticity is fine, but I don't rightly see why this material had to be removed. Either way, that's fussing over content, but getting all Pepsipedia over it is exaggerated and shows a tremendous lack of good faith. I mean, I suppose such lack of good faith with a COI editor is understandable, maybe, but it doesn't help us and our article. If Hipocrite stays away from this, that would be a good thing, if only to bring the temperature down. Drmies (talk) 19:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Sigh... I'd hoped this would slide past unnoticed, but now that you're standing on the mine, you're going to have to defuse it. I strongly sympathize with Hipocrite's position, in that I think CorporateM's proposed text, understandably enough, was meant to go just deep enough to make his client look good without really putting a full understanding of the circumstances as a priority - as I explained there, I think it tended to make activities sound altruistic that, though quite possibly of substantial benefit, ultimately served commercial ends. Unfortunately, I also have to recognize CorporateM's complaint about edits for auction. Taken in full, I think any reasonable person can see that Hipocrite is speaking rhetorically in the middle when he says "I think that all goes out the window when you could literally burn $100,000 with no life impact. You should rename this Cokeapedia, brought to you by Apple. So, no, it's not ethical for a billion dollar corporation to do anything more than say "please look at this article" once. Of course, if they were paying me, I'd think differently. I'll leave this topic area for $1,000, and argue whatever the subject wants for $5,000. Contact me via email this user for Bitcoin details! Wait, is that ethical? I'm so confused where the line is drawn. " Yet in cases like with Bill Cosby's alleged daughter, we've seen claims of "extortion" in the U.S. taken to ridiculous extremes, even against people who simply promised to tell the truth to the press. So I think that ANI may be obligated to think this one over very carefully, even put it to wider community/WMF consultation and write up a policy, in order to determine the best way to deal with an offer to be paid not to edit, and possibly take a hard line here that may involve topic-banning him from the article, despite his positive contributions. I don't desire anything bad to happen to Hipocrite, but the point is, now that process has been invoked, Misplaced Pages has to convince the public at large that there is no possible way that anyone can really threaten to slant your Misplaced Pages article against you unless he's paid off and get away with it; otherwise I fear that people in his position might actually be in some kind of legal risk, which would be much worse. Wnt (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining your concerns in a reasonable way @Wnt:. As stated before though, I never intended to imply that her government lobbying as director of government relations was philanthropic. You'll see here that I basically agreed that this would be good information/context to add and provided sources for adding it. I'm not sure why it keeps being said that I'm POV pushing for making it sound purely philanthropic - I don't believe I've ever advocated for any such thing. There's no conspiracy here to subtly imply one thing or another - just a minor editorial thing in a first draft that could be easily fixed. CorporateM (Talk) 01:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks alleged

(Retitled to "Personal attacks alleged" from non-neutral "Personal attacks by QuackGuru". See wp:talknew. --doncram 13:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC))

QuackGuru has engaged in personal attacks. In violation of AGF and misrepresenting me and my edits. Contrary to warning diff he continues to post links to a closed WP:AN/I section that was closed no consensus in an effort to discredit me. The attacks are not on point, but personal, not directed to the topic, but me. This has no place on the talk pages of WP articles.

• His latest including a link to the closed WP:AN/I section in the edits comments. diff diff
• Previous linking of the section closed WP:AN/I in edit comments. diff
• He even uses a user page to hold the information so he can easily paste it. diff
• He has placed the link in comments on an admin's user page, and the edit is a pure attack.diff
• He has placed the link in the comments and the attack on a request for page protection that I made. diff

This has to stop, There are serious violations of WP:EQ including misrepresenting, AGF, and making the discussion on the other editor and not the topic and WP:HARASS for the persistently trying to discredit me over old and resolved WP:AN/I sections. Asking him to stop has done no good. Smearing another editor should not be done. AlbinoFerret 03:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So the first dif is "User:AlbinoFerret claims "You have not discussed one edit in the 19k characters you inserted." But I did discuss sources User:AlbinoFerret deleted. The response was "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion." That is not a specific objection for excluding relevant information. User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve this page IMO. how is deleting numerous reliable sources improving this page? QuackGuru (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)"

I am not seeing anything ANI worthy there. Sorry Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, thanks for pointing out I had the wrong diff. I have struck out the wrong one and placed the correct one. AlbinoFerret 03:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• This comment "WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless" by User:AlbinoFerret makes me wonder if a topic ban WP:Boomerang would be useful though. See how consensus is that WHO is one of the best medical sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Bringing concerns to a noticeboard is what they are for ? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That discussion already happened in the WP:AN/I QuackGuru keeps linking to and is now 5 months old. It is a content disagreement, and this focus of this section isnt on content, but the persistent personal attacks by QuackGuru. The noticeboard is only one place out of many, and it was the noticeboard for page protection, not a place to level personal attacks or discuss editors. AlbinoFerret 03:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Can someone please point out the personal attack? I do not immediately see the insult being directed. I think we are nearing 150 days of daily edit warring at this article so I recognize the tension. Blue Rasberry (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree BR, I don't see WP:NPA here. I do see unhelpful behaviour, not unidirectionally, including WP:IDHT, WP:Battleground and WP:NOTHERE. I fully understand AF's furstration at QG's massive undiscussed edits on a controversial topic, usually I find with reasonable content in them but lots of dross that doesn't add to the article as well. I also understand QG's frustration with AF undoing what is a large amount of work. But QG is persistently trying to discredit AF over old and resolved ANI threads. I don't know what can be done to reduce the tension at the e-cigarette family of Articles but I think some form of sanctions need to be handed out to those making it harder for productive collaboration to happen. SPACKlick (talk) 08:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think sanctions might be the way to go here since there are multiple problem editors. Many editors left and unwatched the article as it became toxic. Considering how often e-cigs have come up at WP:RSN where decent medical sources always seemed to be challenged by the same group of editors, I'm concerned there may be significant POVs running the discussion. The more problematic POV seems to be being critical specifically of sources that are critical of e-cigs. There are behavior issues tied to how editors are dealing with content, so it doesn't seem like it's easily addressed here at ANI where people will say it's just a content dispute and ignore the behavior problems within it. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bluerasberry While it is not classically defined WP:NPA it is WP:HARASS and the two are very close. AlbinoFerret 14:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• QuackGuru, it would be better to please keep this diff collection on your own computer, not Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Otherwise, I don't see harassment here, and certainly not personal attacks. I agree with Doc James there's nothing for admins to do. Bishonen | talk 16:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC).

Bishonen So, its ok to smear another editor by bringing up old AN/I sections, even those that were closed with no consensus of wrongdoing. Even on article talk pages and others in an attempt to discredit and smear another editor? AlbinoFerret 18:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Bringing up what you have stated before is not a smear. Possibly a topic ban of User:AlbinoFerret would improve things. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I do think you may be right, that at least a temporary (perhaps 3 month) TBAN from electronic cigarette articles would be good for AlbinoFerret's equilibrium. This is an issue where advocates are running well ahead of the evidence, and this is necessarily a source of friction and controversy. The Misplaced Pages articles are a classic case of WP:TRUTH. Guy (Help!) 20:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree with considering a temp TBAN. I had a discussion with AF on my talk page awhile back about them being too locked-in to the topic and not being able to step back. Looking at the current situation I do think it would be helpful to both AF and the topic if they had a break. The previous ANI on AF specifically said there was no consensus at the time on an action, but that is very different from saying there wasn't a behavior problem. I think AF definitely has the potential to approach things more evenly (this conversation did give me some hope), but they really need to step out of their single topic and get experience in less contentious topics since their posting history looks like a WP:SPA right now.Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not a WP:SPA, I edit other pages and have other interests. AlbinoFerret 21:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@Doc James, The whole other section was a smear campaign, started by you. All based on content disputes. Had it resulted in a finding against me, perhaps it could be used here. But it didnt, and talk pages of articles are not the place to try and bring up dirt on another editor. AlbinoFerret 21:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Some of what Albino says is valid, in that this is the proper forum for bringing the list of diffs - not article Talk pages or admin Talk pages. Deploying the list in that way is harassment-y and I think QG should be warned to address behavior issues in appropriate venues going forward. However I don't agree with anything else Albino has written. (particularly his claim that it was not valid to link to the ANI section concerning a topic ban against him; we all know that many ANIs lose focus and become sprawling, uncloseable messes, as that one did. There was plenty of solid feedback on Albino's behavior in that ANI, however, and linking to it is OK.) Jytdog (talk) 21:06, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• it appears that QuackGuru has not taken down the page tracking Albino's behavior yet, despite being advised to do so by an admin, which is not good. QG, it is fine to build such a list but you have to deploy it and then get rid of it. You may have not been ready to use it but your hand is forced now. So - either just delete it, or post it here with a request for admin or community action against Albino, and then delete it. But either way, it should go. Jytdog (talk) 20:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Bishonen, I put a hat on it for now. Is this good enough for now or do you still prefer I blank the page. I'm not done with it. This will go to arbcom if admins don't do anything soon. QuackGuru (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Quackguru see WP:POLEMIC - it is OK to compile a list of behaviors in your userspace but you must use it timely. That is why i said that your hand has been forced, and you have to use it and lose it, or just lose it. It seems like you have enough there to request the community to topic-ban, and this is the place to do that. The last one could have potentially succeeded but it was lost in that totally sprawling ANI. But i will get out of the way and let bish answer. Jytdog (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Quackguru, for you to blank it yourself would be an acceptable compromise, from where I stand, between the hat and putting a speedy tag on it. Blanking isn't a problem, is it? The material would still be at your fingertips via the history. Bishonen | talk 22:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC).

A short time ago I did blank the page. QuackGuru (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Block for QuackGuru

QuackGuru has a long history of blocks and banns log including a past block for personal attacks and harassment. He appears to be a WP:SPA that focuses on controversial medical articles. Past short banns and blocks have done no good. I proposed a indefinite block or alternately a one year block. He has engaged in harassment WP:HARASS again. His actions to remove some of the harassment dont go far enough, the edit summaries are still there as well as the attacks on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 13:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:AlbinoFerret proposed the same thing before and that went nowhere fast. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#Block_or_Ban. A return WP:BOOMERANG will resolve the issue at hand. QuackGuru (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I endorse an immediate block for QuackGuru for this edit. I note that QuackGuru regards me as WP:INVOLVED per this section of his talk page. It lists a collection of dubious statements and untrue allegations against me, and has done since December 2014 in violation of WP:POLEMIC. If QG has issues with me I request that they address them in the proper way. While I do not accept that I am INVOLVED here, I do request that another admin make the block. --John (talk) 19:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru has no right to comment on AlbinoFerret's private life whatsoever, let alone assume he's lying about things QuackGuru can't know anything about. I've warned him. Bishonen | talk 19:41, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

How many warnings will QG get for harassment? AlbinoFerret 13:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the same amount of WP:ROPE you've been given to continue your obvious advocacy. BMK (talk) 15:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Obvious advocacy? You are incorrect. That is a baseless false charge. AlbinoFerret 15:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Really, a "baseless false charge"? If that is so, it is one that is accepted as true by a goodly number of very experienced editors who voted in support of a topic ban for you. Your advocacy isn't in the least covert, it is, as several have commented, easily recognizable. BMK (talk) 21:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't have time to count the total number of past warnings against QuackGuru, so I'll simply list the notices given recently:

• 16 December 2014: A notice by admin Adjwilley was given for ignoring administrative advice and attacking an administrator
• 3 January 2015: A notice by admin Rjanag was given for plagiarism
• 3 February 2015: A warning by admin Shii was issued for edit warring
• 5 February 2015: A warning by admin Kww was issued to QuackGuru for attacking User:Middle 8 in bad faith

I suppose one could give QuackGuru another warning and remind him not to ignore administrative advice or attack editors, as has been done many times in the past, but I don't think such an approach would be helpful to the community (or the administrators). This editor was blocked many years ago for canvassing via email and making misleading accusations, and it appears that with every successive administrative warning, his disruptive behavior continues to worsen and escalate. -A1candidate 16:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

In addition I think that https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:QuackGuru may give light into QuackGuru's activities on electronic cigarette in the recent past. It has not gotten any better. Arguing round in circles trying to get a press release used for medical content, making 20000 character edits in private with no notice or discussion on the talk page. AlbinoFerret 16:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that QuackGuru's ownership of articles is highly detrimental to the consensus building process and I note that he had been previously warned (and blocked) for making edits without first seeking consensus but am not surprised that he continues to ignore all administrative warnings. -A1candidate 16:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

You folks have a nice little circle going on here, a walled garden of mutually supportive comments, mostly between SPAs with the same objective in mind. Only problem is, every comment just makes the groups' general lack of objectivity even more obvious. BMK (talk) 22:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Since I'm just back from a sepsis-enforced break I don't want to step in and make what would be a controversial block, especially in a situation where an uninvolved admin decided to just warn you for it, but Quack, that was unnecessary and under different circumstances (and if I'd beaten Bish here,) I probably would've blocked you. If you do something similar in the future, I probably will. You do a lot of important content work, but there's really no reason to make such a comment. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support immediate block - This recent comment by QuackGuru was clearly targeted against an editor's personal life. The edit summary was highly inappropriate, inexplicably cruel and plain disgusting. Given that the comment was made on the administrators' noticeboard where editors should be particularly mindful of their own behavior, and that QuackGuru had been previously warned and blocked for long-standing patterns of personal harrassment and disruptive editing (see block log and recent warnings), I think a much longer block might be necessary. We are not dealing with a new or inexperienced editor, but a disruptive, long-term editor (account created in 2006) who knows enough about Misplaced Pages's guidelines and policies but continues to ignore them ad infinitum. A1candidate 13:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support per A1candidate. That comment from QG was beyond the pale. Considering his long list of blocks for the same type of behavior, I would hope such a block would be longer than a day or two. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • A1 and WV please pay attention - above an admin has already said they took action for that comment. That incident is done. I understand you both would love to get rid of QG b/c he fights quackery but this attempt to pile on and override an admin is as unseemly as QG's remark. Jytdog (talk) 16:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
    • There's nothing wrong with QG fighting quackery, except that he does it while violating a series of well-established behaviorial guidelines. His attempt to enforce a topic ban on me does not give me much hope that he will ever change his behavior. -A1candidate 22:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support - I completely agree with weeding out quackery, but there are enough people willing to do it without QuackGuru's uncooperative, bullying style of editing. It looks like he's had plenty warnings and chances to improve his behaviour, but he clearly has no intention of doing so.--37.201.58.102 (talk) 02:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for AlbinoFerret

User:AlbinoFerret is making a lot of comments and edits to e-cig related pages. See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/AlbinoFerret&offset=&limit=500&target=AlbinoFerret See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:AlbinoFerret for previous behaviour issues. AlbinoFerret tried to hide Environmental impact section from a reliable source from the page. He eventually tried to delete some of the text. AlbinoFerret deleted a number of reliable sources. AlbinoFerret claims "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion." But AlbinoFerret has not given a specific reason to exclude relevant information about safety. WP:COMPETENCE is not the issue IMO. AlbinoFerret has turned the e-cig pages into a WP:BATTLEGROUND. AlbinoFerret is not the only problematic editor at these pages. Some of the e-cig enthusiasts are not here to improve the e-cig pages. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive867#E-cig_editors for background information on this. Something needs to be done to prevent this from happening over and over again. QuackGuru (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Those were edits in a content dispute. Some of them over 2 months old. This is not about content, but your actions on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is also about you deleting relevant content you find offensive. AlbinoFerret has a repeated pattern of trying to delete pertinent information about safety. AlbinoFerret is unable to formulate a logical reason for excluding the text. QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That is a misstatement. There are valid reasons why the content was removed all covered under talk page sections.Here is a huge one. But this isnt a content dispute, this is a discussion of harassment that happened because you decided to smear me on talk pages. As for WP:BATTLEGROUND, I think you have done enough with building over 19000 character in edits in secret for a month, not discussing any of it on the talk pages, and then adding it, and reverting it back in. On such a contentious article, that should never have happened WP:CAUTIOUS In fact looking at the pages history, you are still planning more because of recient additions, but none of them have been brought to the talk page. AlbinoFerret 22:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Albino you are digging your hole deeper by making spurious complaints. per the userpage guideline WP:UPYES it is totally fine to draft article content in userspace. Jytdog (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Its not spurious, but the basis of WP, Consensus. But there is no consensus in building 19000 character edits in private, and making one 16k edit at once. There was no discussion on the addition, no post on the talk pages directing the other editors to it to look over. This has been done before on the main e-cig page. Granted there is nothing wrong with building edits on a sandbox, but a edit that is 1/3rd the size of the page should have been discussed. WP:CAUTIOUS AlbinoFerret 22:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think an indef topic ban is most appropriate rather than a short-term topic ban. It is clear that User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve the e-cig pages. QuackGuru (talk) 23:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Really, and what evidence exactly do you present in support of that? Other than the fact that you have disagreements with AF over content which is neither here nor there, I can't see that you've stated any whatsoever.Levelledout (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• support indef topic ban AlbinoFerret is not here and is WP:TENDENTIOUS. And this has been going on for a long time. And I see no reason to believe it will improve. Many chances have been given and few have been taken. It's time for this to stop. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support I would support a one year topic ban. Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Doc James. BMK (talk) 00:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support one year topic ban for Albinoferret. There are many issues here and AF is disrupting any genuine attempts to improve the articles, so much that it is bordering on WP:SPA. AF has previously done good work on other articles and I believe AF's and everyone else's time could be spent much better. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 00:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This is nothing more than a content dispute. With diff's gathered over months showing a content dispute. All of which have talk page sections dealing with the content link1 link2 link3. The only thing this will accomplish is silence a active editor from the article that disagrees with some content, that press releases diff should not be used for medical content or problems with the sources. In fact one post above me, Doc James, lists a reason for banning me is that "Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial.". AlbinoFerret 00:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Albino "the evidence" that Doc James is referring to, is medical evidence about risks of e-cigs. I know that a huge focus of yours, has been reducing the amount of what you call "speculation" in the article... but what is, in fact, statements about the unfolding medical consensus on risks. What he meant is that when the science is more solid and the scientific debate settles, there will be less controversy, and that in a year you should have even weaker grounds on which to be disruptive. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is speculation. From the Chang, H. (2014). "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes" source, the topic of the section you linked to "No studies specifically evaluated the environmental impacts of e-cigarette manufacturing; issues related to use of resources, assembly, nicotine source, tobacco cultivation and global production". Unfolding evidence? More like a lot of opinions to me, not based on anything, and the lone "review" of its kind. Because apparently it didnt review any studies as it says none exist. Its given its own section? Huge WP:WEIGHT issue here. Being the only source of its kind, what it reviewed is, basically nothing. This is a perfect example of a content dispute, and diffs 157-161 in QuackGurus post above, which are about three months old. AlbinoFerret13:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say that the fact that you wrote the above, is a perfect example of your persistence in objecting, repeatedly and over a long period of time, to the inclusion of reasonable and well sourced content about health risks being added to the articles, by editors who are very experienced in dealing with health matters in WP. That you bring this up again, even here and now, is exactly why I support the topic ban. You know, I looked and looked, but I couldn't find a diff for this, but didn't you write somewhere that you care about this so much because your wife really needed to quit smoking and tried and tried and couldn't, and it was e-cigs that finally helped her do it? If I have that wrong, I apologize. Jytdog (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say to that, that everyone is entitled to their opinions. But consensus is how WP is edited. Others have reasons to include this in the article, where it has stayed for the last three months or so. That does not mean I dont think its a WP:WEIGHT issue. It means that its included even though I think it has a weight issue. What you dont have is actions pointing to advocacy. You have a difference of opinion on content. AlbinoFerret 18:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I think DocJames can likely speak for himself but anyway Jytdog, the "unfolding medical consensus" is basically that the short term risks are pretty low and that the long term risks should theoretically also be low. The only "speculation" is exactly how low the long-term risks are. If you are saying that in a years time it will be proven that e-cigarettes are more harmful, well that is just basically crystal-ball stuff. We shouldn't really be discussing content here, but since it seems to be being used as evidence so it seems somewhat necessary. Just demonstrates that this is a content dispute really.Levelledout (talk) 14:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

nope you are missing the point; this is about Albino's behavior. i won't belabor this. Jytdog (talk) 15:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support in my view the prior proposal to topic ban AlbinoFerret (which I supported) would have succeeded, except it turned into a sprawling mess and was closed out of hopelessness. This one is squarely focused. AlbinoFerret is a WP:SPA who wages an WP:ADVOCACY campaign favorable to e-cigs, and has been relentless in opposing the addition of well-sourced content about health risks. That pattern is clear from difs above and in the prior ANI. I do not intend this to be cruel, but he has said he is housebound and edits WP to keep himself sane (which I am very sympathetic toward) but still, WP:NOTTHERAPY - and especially not when, combined with advocacy, his editing is disruptive. (I had said this to him directly before.) He is the paradigm of disruptive advocacy on this article. WP is vast - let Albino edit elsewhere and not disrupt this topic any more. Jytdog (talk) 00:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I am far from a SPA, I am a member of WikiProject Citation cleanup and also edit Bitcoin. As for WP:NOTTHERAPY, sane as in keeping active, you can only watch so many daytime talk shows or soap operas. AlbinoFerret 00:53, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per Jytdog. I don't have a strong opinion about the duration, but a year seems about right. Bishonen | talk 00:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

Changed my mind about the duration, per Kevin Gorman below. I support an indefinite ban with the option to appeal after a year. Bishonen | talk 13:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC).

• Oppose The situation has to be understood in the context of the protracted, bitter content dispute that is e-cigarette articles. It has already been said several times that topic-banning AF would help. Yes it would help, it would help those editors that have been in a content dispute with AF for months on end. I think almost everybody who has supported this proposal so far is either moderately or highly involved in the said content dispute. I think that AF has raised some genuine issues here, did in fact originally raise some genuine issues on the article talk page with QG going about things in a covert way and dumping 20k edits into articles without so much as notification. QG attacked AF on the article page which according to WP:PERSONAL is not allowed. For this to be turned back round on AF is very harsh and unjust I think. It also seems to be almost entirely without substance.Levelledout (talk) 00:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Considering that 57% of your edits (257/450 - with 233 to Talk:Electronic cigarette???) are to articles or talk pages about electronic cigarettes, it seems not impossible that you are a SPA as well, perhaps one with a COI. BMK (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Since when is a roughly 50/50 (haven't been bothered to check the exact amount) split between e-cig and other articles considered a single purpose account? What about editors that edit medical articles far more than I actually edit e-cig articles? Or is that perfectly OK I take it? Your COI accusation is spurious, groundless and you have no right to make it. Helps deflect some attention and blame though I suppose.Levelledout (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, you don't think that 57% of your edits going to one very specific subject – electronic cigarettes – and 43% going to a variety of other topics is an pretty good indication that you're here primarily to edit about that one subject? I would beg to differ, I think it's a damn good marker. It's not like your 57% is going to some broad area, like military history, or New York City or films, it's going to electronic cigarettes.

Like Bishonen, whose comment is just below this, I don't believe that any of my edits has been to articles on that subject (but I could be wrong, with over 150,000 edits you do lose track of a few in the course of almost 10 years), but I know advocacy when I see it ... and I've got pretty good radar for SPAs and socks as well. 16:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I've already told you what I think so I'll leave it at that for now. I'm not sure what you having made 150,000 edits and being on Misplaced Pages for 10 years has got to do with anything either.Levelledout (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You "think" almost everyone who has supported the topic ban is involved in the content dispute? Please don't hazard tendentious guesses about things that could be checked with a little research. Here, I'll help you with one item: I for my part have barely heard of e-cigarettes. I'm supporting the topic ban because I can recognize advocacy, at least when it's as obvious as this. Bishonen | talk 12:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

I did not do an in depth analysis before I posted of course, nor can you reasonably expect me to before every post. But I do know that of the posters above QuackGuru (the proposer of the ban) and Doc James are highly involved and Cloudjpk, CFCF and Jytdog have all contributed to e-cig articles and have tended to be on the opposing side of the content dispute to Albino Ferret.Levelledout (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, actually, we can expect you to do some due diligence before you make claims about other editors' motivations. BMK (talk) 16:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As I said clearly enough for you to understand I knew with a reasonable degree of certainty that 5/7 editors were involved all along. I thought it was probably 6/7, hence "almost all" which was an approximation. Nobody was mentioned personally and it turned out to be 5/7. Big deal. Can we move on from this nonsense now please?Levelledout (talk) 21:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If it's "nonsense", it your nonsense, not mine. Are all the supporting editors below also sworn enemies of AlbinoFerret? If not, doesn't that change your !vote, since it was based on the supposed involvement of the supporting editors? And since you're on the other side of the debate as an SPA, should we discount your !vote as you would like us to discount those editors above who you say are involved?

No, what was nonsense was your initial comment, which appears to me to have been disingenuous. BMK (talk) 23:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Despite the fact that you obviously do not accept this, I am entitled to my original opinion. I stand by it and with all due respect, do not care what you think.Levelledout (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The editors who want AF banned mostly seem to be involved in a content dispute with him, and some of them look to be pushing their own point of view pretty hard. I had a look at everyone's block logs and QuackGuru seems to be a serious problem editor. Instead of being turned into a witch hunt against AF I think this should return to the question of what needs to be done about QuackGuru and those who support him.--InfiniteBratwurst (talk) 02:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @InfiniteBratwurst: So, you took your 56 edits and your vast 9 weeks of Misplaced Pages experience and went looking into other editor's block logs in order to come here, !vote oppose, and poison some wells with the dirty little secrets you uncovered there? (How does an editor with 56 edits find out about block logs, anyway? I was here for quite a while before I heard about them.) You complain that the editors supporting the topic ban are involved in a content dispute with AF, but you don't mention that the article you have edited the most. with more than double the edits of the next-most article, is Safety of electronic cigarettes, that its talk page is the one you've edited the most, the seoncd-most being Talk:Electronic cigarette -- but I assume you'll tell us that, unlike the other editors commenting here, you are uninvolved, you are totally neutral, and your vote is in no way influenced by your personal views. Everyone else's is, of course, but not yours. BMK (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
    • @BMK: WP:DBAD — Preceding unsigned comment added by InfiniteBratwurst (talk • contribs) 11:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Wow!!!! 9 weeks here, less than 60 edits, and you cite an obscure essay from Meta. The closing admin should note with pride what an extremely knowledgeable newbie InfiniteBratwurst is!!!! BMK (talk) 12:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
        • I didn't cite anything. I idly wondered if there was a WP:DICK, because you're being one, and guess what I found? Now maybe you could stop with the childish sneering and personal attacks, and try saying something constructive.--InfiniteBratwurst (talk) 12:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
          • Oh, I think pointing out your very interesting, if short, history is quite constructive indeed. BMK (talk) 16:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
            • User:Beyond My Ken, InfiniteBratwurst is actually CheesyAppleFlake. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:CheesyAppleFlake. QuackGuru (talk) 17:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
              • I can't wait to see you prove that.--InfiniteBratwurst (talk) 19:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
                • QuackGuru if there is a case to be made, please make it at WP:SPI and post here. Otherwise please don't add distraction. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
                  • • Yup once you have SPI confirmation you can discuss. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Whatever good AlbinoFerret does tending the electronic cigarette articles is outweighed by the persistent puffing-up of e-cigs as safer than apple pie. Since September 2014, AF has made 2000 talk page comments at the three e-cig articles, and 250 comments here at ANI—it's time to look for other topics. Johnuniq (talk) 07:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Please provide the diffs where I said they are safe as apple pie or any place where I said they were completely safe. As for edit counts, anyone who looks at the logs knows I rarely make complete edits, I always correct them or add to them, on average taking 4 edits to make a comment. I have tried to preview more, but total edits show nothing. AlbinoFerret 15:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - Send to ArbCom - This has been going on from time to time for months. This is the sort of content dispute compounded by conduct issues (tendentious editing) for which a full evidentiary hearing by ArbCom works better than letting the loudest editors at a noticeboard establish consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon i hear you that this may end up at Arbcom but that is a step of last resort. The way this place is set up we are meant to handle what we can at lower levels. I think there is a reasonable case for a topic ban for Albino - this is not about "loudest" but rather based on a clear focus on the behavior of one user. Focus (hard to maintain here, I know) is essential. Please reconsider. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support (Disclosure: AF has supported sanctions against me in another ongoing RFc. But I have supported a topic ban for AF on this topic on several previous occassions). The problem here is that many of the editors on this article are here to advocate for electronic cigarettes rather than being here to build an encyclopedia. I think AF is basically a good guy, but it is not healthy for the encyclopedia to have editors who spend 8 or more hours a day focused on making sure that a single article projects a specific POV. I'll add that I would support a similar topic ban for any editor for whom edits to electronic cigarette articles comprise more than 60% of their total edits over the last 3 months. Its not personal, its just that this article has attracted too many editors who are there to promote a specific POV. Formerly 98 (talk) 15:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per the reasons stated by Levelledout. This is part content dispute and part piling on by those with a particular POV. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Not involved in the articles themselves or the content dispute aside from commenting on a few posts brought to WP:RSN. I wouldn't suggest any longer than a year for a ban though as it's generally better to give people a chance. The idea that this is just a content dispute so the behavior issues should be ignored is extremely disingenuous. There are also involved editors here who oppose the ban on grounds of it being a "content dispute", but behavior problems are behavior problems whether there is a content dispute or not. It's apparent there is a problem here with AF considering how much they focus on the topic. One could argue whether they fit the criteria of an WP:SPA or not with brief edits in a couple other articles, but there is definitely advocacy apparent here. Uninvolved editors here are seeing that problem, so I'd highly suggest weighing that when determining community consensus. I do agree with Robert McClenon that the topic will probably need to be considered at ArbCom at some point, but this is one user that keeps coming up and seems like it could be handled here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Very weak support There are probably enough behavioral problems amongst many editors that an arbitration case would be the best way to settle this. Otherwise, I think a topic ban is an acceptable bandaid, though I'd argue for a shorter duration, like 6 months, and revisit a more long term solution if the behavior resumes. AniMate 20:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban of one year for Albino Ferret from discussing the subject of Electronic cigarettes on any page in the English Misplaced Pages. The reason is largely the one given by Bishonen (overly intense advocacy). Possibly one or more other users will need a topic ban too. Cardamon (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of 3 months (preferred) or 1 year from articles on electronic cigarettes, broadly construed, but not indefinite. AF shows some signs of wanting to edit other articles, let's see some evidence of constructive contributions outside this topic area. Guy (Help!) 23:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is clearly a content dispute with both sides unwilling to reach a compromise. The "evidence" presented by QuackGuru isn't very strong. One could also take Bishonen's argument of WP:ADVOCACY and apply it to QuackGuru, since his recent contributions suggest that he has been engaging in a campaign unfavorable to e-cigarettes. As far as I can tell, none of the diffs violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies. I do see a strong case for banning QuackGuru though: This comment by QG is clearly targeted against AF's personal life, and the edit summary is not just inappropriate, but also inexplicably cruel and disgusting. -A1candidate 11:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

!vote above doesn't deal with Albino's behavior but rather attempts to focus on QG's- classic rhetorical move. This is a proposal about Albino's long term disruptive behavior as evidenced in the prior ANI (which lost focus) and additional diffs above. Jytdog (talk) 12:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

None of the diffs presented violate any of WP's policies, as far as I can tell. -A1candidate 13:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

No, this is not clearly a content dispute as A1candidate suggests. A1candidate is repeatedly making blanket reverts of reputable organizations and reviews. This disruption of blanket reverts by A1candidate should not be allowed to continue. A1candidate, I recommend you take a voluntary short-term topic ban from the page. A1candidate, are you going to continue make blanket reverts? QuackGuru (talk) 17:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

One might want to look at the size of the edits (18,711 characters) trying to edit in sources that were the topic of a (still ongoing) RFC. That at the time was almost 1/2 the size of the existing page. The comments on the edits were directing people to the talk pages. This wasnt blanket removal, this was a few editors (QuackGuru, CFCF, and Cloudjpk) trying to force a mammoth edit on the page during a discussion of the sources used. Looking at the history makes it all the more clear. This is purely a content dispute. Where one side wants to discuss things, and others just want to get it in. AlbinoFerret 18:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Remember the talk page discussion? I wrote "User:AlbinoFerret, you were asked "Are there issues with the sources or the summary of said sources?" So far you have not specifically explained which new sources are a concern to justify your blanket revert and there is a clear consensus for the the positions of the organisations." You repeatedly deleted a number of sources including reviews without any logical reason. User:AlbinoFerret, do you agree you are going to stop making blanket reverts? QuackGuru (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, please stop making these baseless accusations against me. I'm surprised that you would want to enforce a "voluntary short-term topic ban" on me, given that I have made minimal contributions to this the article so I am not sure what that would achieve. -A1candidate 18:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• @QuackGuru, This is a constant problem, WP:IDHT. I answered you why I thought a press release was not usable. link and that sources that are WP:Tertiary should not be used for medical content. These sources (the subject of your second set of diffs) were already on a sister page, Positions of medical organizations regarding electronic cigarettes. Where they are appropriate, this isnt removing content and blocking, but a discussion on the location WP:ONUS. This is a fine point of WP, and I dont think you get. Your link to a blanket revert is part of the mammoth edit I posted on a reply ago, You made an almost 20000 character edit to a controversial page with no discussion, after planning it for almost a month in a sandbox without discussing it at any time. Again taking WP:Tertiary sources from the sister page, Positions of medical organizations regarding electronic cigarettes. Where they have never been removed. If you look in the edit comments, you will see I quoted WP:CAUTIOUS and noted that no discussions have happened. There is even a talk page section started by me on the topic. AlbinoFerret 19:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban having reviewed this whole mess over the last half hour. My only 'involvement' with e-cigarettes was thinking someone's looked hilarious at Wikimedia DC's GLAM bootcamp. As is generally the case with tbans, Albino would still be able to raise the situation before arbcom if desired. I don't think a time limit has a purpose since plenty of people just take an editing vacation until their tban expires and come back just as problematic as they were before, but AF could appeal it in the future after spending time productively contributing elsewhere on WP. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Good point. I agree, indef with the option to appeal is better. Bishonen | talk 13:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC).

• Could you show me a single diff (as presented by QuackGuru) that actually violated an established guideline? -A1candidate 13:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• See WP:BATTLE for a start. My own view is that both editors should be topic banned. You, yourself, could stand to read and reflect upon WP:IDHT. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose witchhunts and general attempts to silence opponenets. Someone needs to stand up to this nonsense.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 16:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

distraction; not focused on Albino's behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban of at least a year. I am uninvolved with the topic. To the best of my recollection, I have never edited anything to do with electronic cigarettes, but I can recognize disruptive behavior in support of a POV when I see it. Cullen Let's discuss it 18:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm not convinced there have been any policy violations, or BF editing, or PAs that would constitute firm measures for behavioral issues. I see disagreement, and certainly hope disagreement or an opposing view doesn't warrant a block or ban these days. Atsme☯ 23:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

the difs for long term behavioral issues are clear. I do understand, Atsme, why you be sympathetic to someone opposing the application of MEDRS, since you would support having positive content on the cancer-fighting powers of amygdalin in WP, using sources like naturalnews, per this. You, at least have been doing that only on Talk, and have not been editing warring over it for months now, as Albino has. Jytdog (talk) 02:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support for the same reasons as the last forty-'leven times this topic-ban proposal has come up. Closing admin should pay careful attention to whether some of these !votes are from SPAs or near-SPAs and are possibly voting on subject matter as opposed to behavior. Zad68 03:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Editor routinely reverting contributions from IP address editors.

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering based artcles that he routinely watches. This is behaviour that was previously addressed by a Request for comment in 2012.

Since that time, Wtshymanski has continued to systematically revert any and all edits made by IP address editors. Many are vandalism (no problem), but many are good faith edits. There are far too many examples to document here, so I have restricted examples to just those from the past three weeks.

17th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

This was a good faith and basically correct edit. It was reverted on the tenuous grounds of being 'ungrammatical and out of place'. It could easily have been made gramatical and was exactly where it needed to be.

18th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

This was a good faith edit and technically correct. It was reverted on the tenuous grounds that the output is not light despite infra-red often being described as "infra-red light" as indeed it is throughout the rest of the article. Further: infra-red light emitting diodes are described as precisely that - "light emitting diodes". The revert actually made the article worse because it no longer told the reader what the 900 nm output is (could be an electrical signal for example).

25th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

The article was PRODed by Wtshymnski. The IP editor challenged the PROD by deleting it as he is perfectly entitled to do. WTS simply reverted the deletion doubtless because he believes that IP address editors should not be allowed to challenge PRODs even though they are. (The WP:PROD procedure clearly states that a PROD is aborted if the tag is deleted and it must not be rePRODed.)

25th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

The IP editor's edit must be assumed by the WP:AGF policy to be a good faith edit, there being no evidence to the contrary. Nevertheless, WTS has, characteristically not assumed the required good faith by reverting the edit as 'vandalism', and has done so by copy-pasting back an old version of the article (intermediate edits preventing a stright 'undo'). In his haste to revert yet another IP address editor, WTS also pasted back a spelling mistake and a 'coauthors' parameter to a CS1 template which is deprecated. Thus WTS corrected one error but reintroduced two.

2nd Mar

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

Again a potentially good faith edit from an IP address editor . Once again, WTS makes no pretence at assuming that the edit is good faith and it is dismissed as vandalism. Another editor, Andy Dingley independently made the same point on Wtshymanski's talk page. Nothing can be inferred from the editing history as the IP address resolves to a college in India so it is anybody's guess how many real users are behind it.

It is known that Misplaced Pages is always wanting to recruit productive editors for the project. Inevitably, many potential editors will start as IP address editors before creating an account - provided they find the environment welcoming. Wtshymanski has long held the view that IP address editors should not be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages and has said so (see RfC referenced above for more). This may be Wtshymanski's view but it is known that it is not the view of the project and Wtshymanski has no right to impose his view in the face of the project's

IP address editors can be productive and offer quality editing to the project. Deliberate wholesale reverting such edits does not provide the welcoming environment, that such editors need if they are to be encouraged to staty.

As evidence: a quick scan produces this IP address's contributions . This editor has made good quality contributions on UK parliamentary procedure; seems to understand the subject and the contributions have been well referenced. I suspect this may be an experienced editor, but if it is, I have not been able to link the address with any other or an account. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 16:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Totally agree with DieSwartzPunkt The diffs shown, show the removals called vandalism and they're not, further when he's challenged by a non-ip user, he's been letting the edits stand. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

18 Feb IP edit was absolutely correct and Wtshymanski revert is an error, because what it emits is light (everything that involves photon is light). Some part of the entire light band is visible, but other invisible parts are also called.

I agree with DieSwartzPunkt's observation for all other instances too. – nafSadh did say 17:44, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• What's the point in this ANI post? Is this an "incident"? Maybe. What administrator action is desired here though?

Once upon a time we had WP:WQA and WP:RFC/U. Neither of them were likely to be effective (WP:Requests_for_comment/Wtshymanski wasn't), but at least they were an attempt by WP to have a means of resolving such issues. Admins won't act over such issues - it would involve making value judgements about other editors and that never happens. Even when it's not a popular editor who can rally their clique of supporters.

WP needs to restore WQA, RFC/U or something else in that line. This ANI post won't achieve that much though. Wtshymanski will, as always, back off for just long enough to dodge the bullet (see the RFCU closing comments) and then will be back, just the same as before. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Not proven The accusation is:

"Wtshymanski is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering-based articles that he routinely watches." (typo and punctuation corrected)

and, doubling down, just in case we might have thought the meaning was open to interpretation:

"Wtshymanski has continued to systematically revert any and all edits made by IP address editors." (emphasis was in the original)

But a quick perusal of the history of each of the pages diff'd above will show many edits by IPs that were not reverted by Wtshymanski. Therefore the claim of "any" is specious. Some were let stand, some were reverted by others, "others" not excepting Andy Dingly and DieSwartzPunkt. There are also many edits by IPs that were reverted by W. with completely defensible reasons and edit summaries.

Perhaps W. is too quick to assume that IPs' edits are wrong. (From my own experience, given the number of IPs' edits I've corrected that were wrong, this would not be an unreasonable bias on W.'s part.) I believe AD and DSP are similarly too eager to find fault with W.'s edits, and this patently absurd accusation of "any and all" is a result. Jeh (talk) 20:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

"many edits by IPs that were not reverted by Wtshymanski."

So because he didn't get all of them, his behaviour over the ones that he did revert should be discounted?

This isn't about Wtshymanski reverting anon edits. It's about his assumption that for any anon edit he reverts (frequently a justified revert) he assumes that it's deliberate vandalism, and he assumes this because of who made it, not the quality of the edit. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

"This isn't about Wtshymanski reverting anon edits." That's odd, because that's exactly what you DSP said it was about. If it's really about his over-use of the vandalism charge, then you DSP should have said that from the beginning. And then every one of your DSP's your diffs needs to show an edit summary by W. with a demonstrably unjust accusation of vandalism, or they don't support your position. If it turns out that a clear majority of W's edits to IPs' edits do not include an unjust accusation of vandalism, your case gets rather weak. Jeh (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Jeh, I know that you're just about the only friend Wtshymanski has round here, so it's not surprising that you've rushed to defend him. However please actually read this post first. I didn't raise this. I haven't posted any diffs, so I don't know which diffs you're complaining about. Mind, it would have to be very blinkered to not see the problem with what he's doing. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Correct you are. I missed the correct attribution among all the rest of the periodic Wtshymanski pile-on. I have edited my above accordingly. But as for your "I don't know which diffs" claim, there is only one set associated with the complaint. So I think that if you were to hazard a guess as to which diffs in this talk page section I'm referring to, you'd either be correct, or you'd have to pretend to be a complete idiot. And we all know you are not that, so please drop the "I don't know what you're referring to" act. You're smarter than that, and I'd thank you to assume that I'm smart enough to not buy it. Jeh (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You claimed that Wtshymanski had allowed some IP edits to stand, but failed to provide any diffs. In the short discussion that I had on this at Wtshymanski's talk page, he made the same claim. He then obliged with a single diff that supported that position. But he had to go all the way back to 2007 to find it. There are examples of IP edits being allowed to stand, but as they are obvious corrections of errors, reverting them would be vandalism in itself (though as in case four above, that is not always an obstacle). DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, please. You took that "2007" bit seriously?

So. "There are examples of IP edits being allowed to stand." Your words. Doesn't that rather contradict your accusation? Do I have to quote it yet again, to remind you of what it was? Do you understand what it takes to disprove a universal claim? It takes one counterexample. One.

The first diff above is from DC motor. From the first page of 50 edits, working from the bottom (I am not counting IP edits that were clearly vandalism, either reverted by W. or otherwise):

IP made stylistic wording changes to picture caption. W. did not revert.

vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

IP wikilinked Hybrid car. W. did not revert.

IP made minor grammar correction. W. did not revert.

vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

minor word correction by IP. Nobody reverted.

vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

vandalism by IP. Rv by Wtshymanski.

IP added redlinks. Rv by Andy Dingley.

vandalism by IP (added blank lines). Rv by someone else.

vandalism by IP. Rv by ClueBot.

vandalism by same IP as above. Rv by ClueBot.

vandalism by IP. rv by someone else.

vandalism by IP. rv by ClueBot.

vandalism by same IP as above. Rv by someone else.

IP removed a blank line (non-rendering edit). Not reverted that I could find.

Wtshymanski edit. Unrelated to previous IP edits.

vandalism by IP (blanking). Fixed by ClueBot.

IP added an ungrammatic sentence: "It has very high starting resistance so that it would use in that kind of equipments which needs a very high starting torque." Wtshymanski reverted with comment "out of place unclear and ungrammatical" (this is the rv DSP complained about).

minor grammatical correction by IP. Wording improved by me.

Counts:

19 edits by IPs total (I am counting successive edits by the same IP, with none intervening, as just one).

11 of these were vandalism. Of those, ONE was reverted by Wtshymanski.

6 were good edits. Of those, W. reverted NONE. Two of them were significant changes to content.

1 was a good faith but erroneous edit, reverted by Andy Dingley.

1 was what I would call "legitimately problematic". Wtshymanski reverted it. Yes, it could have been improved.

It seems clear to me that W., far from reverting "any and all" edits by IPs as you accused, was far more selective. He in fact reverted only one of 11 IPs' vandalism edits, one problematic edit, and none of six good edits. I would say that the evidence from this article, one of those you complained about, refutes your accusation rather soundly. The evidence does not even support a claim of "W. erroneously reverts most IP edits", with or without an accusation of vandalism. (I would also say that it shows there is ample reason to view IP edits with a particularly skeptical eye.)

But you are the one making the claim, so you are the one who should be providing complete summaries of recent diffs. Not just a few cherry-picked examples. Jeh (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The above is non-evidence. 12 edits were reverted by others. That proves nothing except that someone beat Wtshymanski to the punch in each case. Even Wtshymanski presumably sleeps and works from time to time. As already stated, Wtshymanski usually does not revert an edit, if it leaves the article wrong (6 edits). And the last 'legitimately problematic' one, is similar to case 1 of this complaint. 'It could have been improved'. Yes, and Wtshymanski is as capable of improving it as anyone else, but if the edit had been left, someone would have improved it.

I have not 'cherry-picked' evidence as you claim. I have listed every IP address revert since 17th Feb. If I had provided a 'complete' list of sumaries as you suggest, this ANI would still be being compiled. But this was stated in the original complaint. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, I provided the diffs you asked for, and you moved the goalposts. But then you want to stick by the original complaint? The original complaint was:

"Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering based artcles that he routinely watches. "

That has been disproven (with great ease, just as most generalizations can be). You listed "every IP address revert since 17 Feb"? And you found a grand total of five? W. has made 'prox 700 edits since 17 Feb. So less than 1% of W's edits in the last three weeks were reverts of IP edits that you think were unjustly described as vandalism? You're going to have to find much more compelling evidence than that.

"If I had provided a 'complete' list of sumaries as you suggest, this ANI would still be being compiled." So you can find a few examples out of several hundred edits, not mention that they're picked out of seven hundred edits, and you think that makes your case? This has all the earmarks of a witch-hunt. Makes me wonder if the evidence in W.'s other ANI, etc., cases, at least the ones brought by DSP, AD, and GM was as tenuous? Jeh (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the "problematic edit" by the IP (severe grammar problem) was the one you listed. Yes, it could have been improved. The fact remains that W.'s revert of the IP's edit left the article better than it had been after the IP. So we have a justified edit by W., and your complaint is that he should have done more. Got it. Jeh (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Andy, above you asked (?) what the point is. I think you or someone should ask for something specific. I looked at W's block log and this seems to be an annual affair (that somehow skipped last spring). The first block for this in 2012 was a day; the block for this in 2013 was a week. There is a clear pattern of the same behavior continuing, which is a violation of AGF and is DISRUPTIVE. So you should propose a longer time-limited block (say 2 months?) or perhaps an indef. It would probably take community consensus for either, and this is indeed the place to propose that and get consensus for it. But in the block proposal you should make a good, concise, ANI-ready statement of the case, if you want it to succeed. That is my advice anyway. Jytdog (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have better things to do than to read and memorise Wtshymanski's block log. If he has been formally warned not to behave just like he's doing here, and he's been blocked for doing it previously, then I'd agree that it might be useful for an admin to follow that precedent and act accordingly. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

You questioned whether this was an incident. With the demise of the RfC/U system, the only avenue now available to address user's behavioural issues is here at ANI (and the defunct RfC/U procedure says so). If nothing happens as a result of this, then I can only assume that the admins are granting open season on reverting other editors' posts. That may not be there intent, but it will certainly be the message. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would only ask that the admins look at the pattern of behavior here:

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Wtshymanski hammering his personal knowledge into articles again
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#User Wtshymanski refusing to follow the merge procedure when merging articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Unilateral redirects without merging as stated in edit summaries - User:Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive683#Request for admin attention re: proposed deletion of multiple electronics components articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive690#Wtshymanski failing to work collaboratively
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive138#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Floydian .28Result: Stale.29
• Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36#Power factor
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive257#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:85.255.233.193 (Result: Protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive172#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: declined, semi-protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive149#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:24.177.120.74 (Result: page protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance/archive103#Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 7#Talk:PSR_B1919.2B21.23Merge

Please note that some incidents that would no doubt have ended up as blocks ended up instead as page protection because Wtshymanski's latest opponent (typically a new user) behaved worse, so the block log does not tell the whole story.

Also note that when Wtshymanski faces the possibility of sanctions, he typically does not defend himself but instead stops editing for a while. The old "he hasn't edited since X, so nothing to do here" trick works every time -- his RFC/U was closed with "Considering that Wtshymanski has not edited since 16 May 2012, no immediate administrative action appears required". Please don't fall for it again. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Guy's post above underlines a very major problem. The administrators are (unwittingly) exacerbating the problem. A running feature in the long history of these behavioral disputes and complaints is that whenever the administrators decline to take any action, Wtshymanski regards it as an endorsement of his attitude and behavior towards other Misplaced Pages users. I have lost count of the number of times, that some editor has criticised Wtshymanski on his talk page only for Wtshymanski to respond that his attitude has already been taken to ANI (or wherever) with no action and therefore it is acceptable . This was covered as long ago as the 2012 RfC/U. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah. Found it!

"... and yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest." - Wtshymanski

• again, DieSwartzPunkt and Andy Dingley you have presented a bunch of evidence, which is great. But just coming here and making a complaint about a pattern of behavior generally leads no where here; the discussion will just go on and on and will eventually peter out as everyone gets exhausted. If you want something done you should make a concrete proposal for action Jytdog (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It's DieSwartzPunkt who posted this, not me. I have no expectations of ANI ever acting usefully, so wouldn't have wasted the ink. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

well there is self-fulfilling prophecy if i ever saw one. OK I will do it, just so I don't have to watch this follow the sad pattern. Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As for what action is required? Wtshymanski's battleground attitude to other editors (both registered and anonymous) has been going on for several years. Guy Macon's very comprehensive listing above is testament to that. What is required is some action to force Wtshymanski to co-operate with other editors in the manner that Misplaced Pages intend. This means either a series of escallating blocks until he falls into line (though this has not worked so far). Alternatively, I would suggest the proposal that was made at the 2012 RfC/U, where a set of rigourously enforced sanctions be applied against Wtshymanski. There was a good list discussed here which would be a good starting point. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal 1: 3 month block on Wtshymanski

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Support - as proposer. W has a well documented, long term pattern of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing by indiscriminately reverting IP edits. Demonstrated by block log and diffs above. Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support - as complainant. Previous block for this behaviour was one week and achieved nothing. A longer block is needed to try and get the message across. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Heres a better idea: block or interaction ban Dingley from bringing Wtshymanski to ANI again. Hes the one who has the problem. There are just three editors here who keep complaining about Wtshymanski: DieSwarzPunkt, GuyMacon and Dingley. Theyre the ones who are causing this. Wtshymanski reverts bad edits - whats even wrong with that? To find things to complain about they dragged up a RFCU case from three years ago. No one else has trouble with Wtshymanski so leave the guy alone. 82.132.234.182 (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Re: "DieSwarzPunkt, GuyMacon and Dingley": ...and Binksternet, and Bratland, and Deucharman, and Dicklyon, and EdJohnston, and Floydian, and Hasteur, and Jytdog, and N5iln, and NellieBly, and North8000, and Northamerica1000, and P-Tronics, and Rdengler, and RichardOSmith, and too many IP editors to count... --Guy Macon (talk) 16:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support. As Wtshymanski himself said, "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest." --Guy Macon (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC) The new proposal 2 is better. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Sadly. The evidence speaks for itself. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The complaint states that "W has a well documented, long term pattern of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing by indiscriminately reverting IP edits." But the "evidence" posted by DSP shows only five such incidents "in the last three weeks". That's five edits out of over 700 made by Wtshymanski in that time. That's quite a standard W. is being held to. Regarding the list of previous incidents so painstakingly compiled by GuyMacon, many of those were closed without action. Since the current proposal is unsupported by sufficient evidence, this turns into "let's punish him more for the past 'pattern of behavior', even though we've provided no evidence that it's continuing." That's not how AN/I works. Jeh (talk) 18:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Interesting that you are prepared to cite 700 more or less mechanical edits adding a "no" to the "living=" parameter on biographical talk pages (that do not actually seem to change anything), as justification that Wtshymanski can revert IP address editors, contributions. Unless, the is, that you yourself do not approve of IP address editors editing. Guy answered the conclusions in his missive. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I won't comment on past history, but those 5 diffs at the beginning of this section are problematic as evidence. For example, the Feb 25 edit does not refer to the IP edit just before it, but to an earlier IP edit. The Mar 2 edit was clearly subtle vandalism from an IP whose only edits have been vandalism. --I am One of Many (talk) 19:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

This point was addressed. The IP resolves to a whole college in India. These have been problematic for a long time. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Per difs provided by Jeh which refute the accusation. Edison (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

And have been shown to be non- evidence. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I see the case as clearly proven. I see Jeh's posting of diffs of other peoples' edits as not proving anything about Wtshymanski's behaviour at all (How was that even supposed to work?).

However I don't want to see Wtshymanski long-term blocked (or Alan Liefting, where something similar and equally counter-productive happened). We have several clear policies, one of which is AGF, others are about crediting merges, discussion with others etc. and Wtshymanski has a long, long history of ignoring any of them he feels like. However what I want to see happen instead is for him to just start bloody well behaving himself, same as the rest of us have to. I don't want this to be at the cost of excluding him altogether (if at all possible). Maybe over-optimistic, but I hope something is possible.

As an imposed action today, I'd be much more keen on some narrowly worded restriction. "Not describing non-vandalism as vandalism" would be a start. Simply not reverting IPs at all, if that's the smallest that can stick. I can't support a three month block on an editor though, even Wtshymanski. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Andy above. Just because Wtshymanski does not assume good faith doesn't mean that we should not give him a chance to correct himself. A temporary ban from reverting any IP edits may even be better than this. Epic Genius (talk) 22:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oddly, I proposed this as an alternative to the 3 month block, but got shouted down. (See edit history for more). DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Not reasonable. I advised you to withdraw a competing recommendation; you freely agreed without protest and suggested I delete the whole 2nd proposal; which I did. You just lost all credibility with me. Jytdog (talk) 01:23, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Since I neither reproposed the option 2 nor added a vote of support for it, what exactly is your problem? DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposal 2: revert restriction

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is indefinitely prohibited from reverting an edit without a content based edit summary. In addition, they are prohibited from referencing the original editors lack of registration status in the summary.

• Support addresses the specific concern without unduly interfering with editing of the encyclopedia. NE Ent 23:10, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Support. As I indicated with the examples I gave in User talk:Wtshymanski#rv V ?, it can be very difficult to figure out who was reverted and why from Wtshymanski's edit summaries. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment That's a completely valid concern, and goes with the "content-based edit summary" requirement, but I don't see how it's related to "can't refer to anon status". Will the WP default edit summary for reverting an IP edit be changed for Wtshymanski? Or will he be required to remove it? That would seem to me to make it even harder to figure out who was reverted. Jeh (talk) 02:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. First, this proposal is not matched by a specific complaint that the proposal will address. (Which btw is why the following lengthy screed is here under my vote, instead of in the "discussion after complaint" section where it belongs.) DSP's original complaint was that W. reverts "any and all" IP edits; that is obviously false. Subsequent discussion was all over the place, but I don't see any specific complaints that are complementary to this proposal.

I suppose we can infer that the goalposts have now been moved the complaint has been changed to "W. frequently does not provide content-based edit summaries, and refers to IP edits disparagingly in edit summaries." But no evidence has been presented to support those complaints. A report of an "incident" here is supposed to be supported by diffs that are clear illustrations of the problem behavior. The only clear evidence here is DieSwartzPunkt (talk · contribs)'s five diffs, but those were originally compiled to support the "W. reverts any and all IP edits" complaint, not this. But those are all we have. So, taking them in order:

• 17 Feb: Edit summary of W.'s revert was content-based ("out of place unclear and ungrammatical") and did not mention "lack of registration status" outside of WP's default summary for a revert of an IP edit. (Re the quality of the revert, though that does not seem to be anything being addressed by this proposal: I would note that "high starting resistance" does not sound like a positive attribute for any electric motor under any circumstances. Granted that W. could have reworded instead of reverting, W's revert nevertheless left the article better than the IP's edit did.) Score: Zero support for the supposed complaint.
• 18 Feb: This is the "not visible so it's not light" revert. I agree that W.'s revert was a mistake, but the edit summary was content-based ("IR not visible") and only used the WP default wording for a revert of an IP edit. Score: Zero support for the supposed complaint.
• 25 Feb: This is the "restored deleted PROD" case. In this case W. did write "rv anon". But the WP default summary text was also present, and it also shows that the edit being reverted was by an IP. Score: one for "edit summary not content-based" but I cannot see that this unduly refers to an "anon" editor, not when WP's default message does the same.
• 25 Feb: This is the "unijunction transistor" case. W.'s edit summary is "rv anon v". Granted that this is not "content-based", but how much do we have to "content-base" a summary to defend a rv v?

DSP writes "The IP editor's edit must be assumed by the WP:AGF policy to be a good faith edit, there being no evidence to the contrary. Nevertheless, WTS has, characteristically not assumed the required good faith by reverting the edit as 'vandalism'".

But the "no evidence to the contrary" part of that assertion is absurd. Changing "unijunction" to "junction" in one place in an article titled "Unijunction transistor", and which has the word "unijunction" all over it, is pretty tough to assume to be an honest mistake. It is, rather, sadly typical of IP drive-by petty vandalism. If the IP thought the correct word was "junction" then ie should have made the change everywhere. Hence "rv v" is justified, and no further "content-based summary" is required. Score: No support for either supposed complaint. You may not agree with my conclusion, but I don't think you can say that I have no case at all. At worst, it's arguable.

n.b.: I have adopted the pronoun "ie" as a parallel to "he" or "she", to be used to refer to IPs of unknown gender.

• 02 Mar: This is the "two phase electric power" edit. Edit summary: rv v with WP standard rv of IP text. The IP changed "90" to "180". On first glance this too could be seen to be an honest mistake, since the very common split phase power used in the US has a 180 degree phase difference. But this edit was in the "this article about" section of a SeeAlso, contrasting the 90-degree "two phase electric power" with split phase power. Moreover, there's a nice diagram in the lede, which clearly shows a 90 degree phase shift; and 90 degrees is also mentioned in the lede text. The IP didn't change any of that. Further, the IP's edit history shows a clear pattern of petty changes, nearly all of which were reverted. DSP says that the IP locates to a college in India, so there might be several different people using it and no conclusion can be drawn. I would agree if there was a pattern of mostly good edits. But not here. If the IP is being used by a group of people, then it's a group of people who collectively are vandals. I would also argue that expecting an editor to do a geolocate on an IP is an unreasonable length to expect anyone to go to. It looks more to me like a desperate quest for a reason to AGF, despite evidence to the contrary. No, "rv v" is appropriate and sufficient. Score: No support for supposed complaint.

So in my opinion, only one of those diffs clearly supports the complaint that I'm assuming this proposal addresses, with one or at most two more arguable.

But even if all of them supported the complaint, do not, by themselves, demonstrate a general pattern of problem edit summaries by W. They show five edits, for which DSP apparently had to scour W.'s edit history for the last three weeks, a period during which W. made over 700 edits. Proposers need to provide evidence showing that these are more than isolated cases.

Furthermore, I really wonder how many other editors' history would stand up to this level of nitpicking? I also wonder how many of W's past AN/I and other cases were made on equally flimsy grounds?

Lastly, regarding "prohibited from referencing the original editors lack of registration status" part: When you revert an IP edit, WP automatically supplies a default summary of "Undid revision (number) by (IP address)". Are we going to require that W. change that? If not, how does the word "anon" call any undue or disparaging attention to the anonymous nature of the edit being reverted? If you do, do you really want to require W.'s reverts to not reflect the IP of the edit being reverted? That would only make it more difficult to figure out who was reverted and why, a result Guy Macon (talk · contribs) could be expected to object to, based on his statements above. Jeh (talk) 12:01, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have to agree that the proposal above is too broad given the context. I am about to support the proposal, but with a scope restriction. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@Jeh - so your thesis here is that Wtshymanski's categorisation of these reverted edits as "vandalism" was correct?

Both of these edits (unijunction transistor and two phase power) were (to agree with Wtshymanski) ignorant and careless. They were obviously contradicted by the articles themselves, so any "careful" editor, not even a subject expert, should have had cause to question them. However a vast number of our IP editors on electrical topics are Indian college students with the confident ignorance of undergrads worldwide and an oddly (but obvious) Indian fixation on somewhat obsolescent electrical topics (I don't know what their biomedical students are learning, but their electrical engineers are taught about what the West tends to regard as museum pieces). I would lay money that these edits came from either an Indian technical college, or a bulk ISP such as BSNL. Look at synchronous motor and the perennial factor-of-two numerical errors introduced over "poles" and "pole pairs". We are waist-deep in this garbage and as someone who reverts far more poor edits to electrical topics than even Wtshymanski, I'm sick of it.

However ignorance and piss-poor teaching still isn't vandalism. Per AGF, none of us are allowed to treat it as such. As WP editors we are required to display infinite patience with clueless edits against basic common sense. Wtshymanski is no longer doing this. To be honest, I can't blame him for it. We should forgive it. However we shouldn't (as you're doing here) construct convoluted excuses for why it's "correct" to do so. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"so your thesis here is that Wtshymanski's categorisation of these reverted edits as "vandalism" was correct?" Yes. I said so. I don't think I was at all unclear. Personally I am often a little more hesitant to use the "v" in an edit summary for an IP's first edit and first mistake (e.g. the "unijunction" edit). But with the pattern seen in the history of the IP of the "two phase electric power" edit? That seems very clear to me.

Your thesis is that I'm supposed to AGF even when an edit is of a pattern very commonly used by petty vandals, even when it's from an IP with multiple previous similar edits. I think that, and your requirement of "infinite patience", is absurd. That is an absolute, a universal, and I see no support for such in WP:AGF. Please note that WP:AGF begins with a disclaimer: "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." A requirement of "infinite patience" is not at all "common sense", particularly not when the encyclopedia is being damaged repeatedly from the same IP.

I don't think I used "convoluted excuses" either. I think that was done by the apologist who noted that the IP locates to a school and therefore the IP's history of other erroneous edits is irrelevant. How is that idea consistent with WP's use of schoolblocks? Hey, in our effort to bend over backwards while touching our toes to AGF, why don't we just always assume that even if an IP goes to a private home, different family members might be using it, therefore an IP's history is always irrelevant? r-i-g-h-t.

Assuming I agree with your position here (I don't, particularly the "infinite patience" part): How do you reconcile "I can't blame him for it - we should forgive it" with your support for DSP's "reworded" proposal below?

Even if we accept that both of those edits were not v., there still is no evidence for a pattern of problematic edits. DSP says he went back three weeks in W's history and found two AGF failures. Oh my ghod, the sky will fall. Again, I ask: How many other editors' histories would stand up against this level of nitpicking? I think DSP is just a little too eager to bring ANI cases against W. Jeh (talk) 00:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

"with the pattern seen in the history of the IP"

What "pattern"? They've made a dozen edits in total. This year they've made the two phase edit and a self-reverted. Neither of these are vandalism and there is no pattern of vandalism from them. Even Checkuser regards IP data as stale after three months, but you're seeing a pattern of confirmed vandalism from it.

Do you believe in some form of demonic possession? Do you think this router has become inherently evil, and so any editor connecting via it is now forced to turn into some sort of vandal?!

Your failure to accept AGF as applying to IPs is as bad as Wtshymanski's. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:28, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah? Feel free to bring an ANI case if you think you can make it stick. Jeh (talk) 01:41, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

More constructively: If incorrect use of the "vandalism" charge by W. is what you're really concerned about, why not make a Proposal 3: "Wtshymanski is forbidden from using 'v.', 'vand.', 'vandalism', or other similar accusations of vandalism in edit summaries"? Now, as I said, even if I accept those two IP edits as not-vandalism, there is still a failure to make a case that these are anything but isolated incidents. And I think that, although a few incidents of of AGFFailure could be worthy of a warning from an admin, any long-term restriction on editing behavior needs far more proof. But at least this is a nice clean proposal with clear boundaries for what is and isn't being proposed. If you do this, be sure to make the new proposal separate from the others, unlike what DSP did. Jeh (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support with reword : The scope is too broad as it apparently attempting to address issues not raised here as Jeh observes. My support would be for a sanction worded, "A prohibition on reverting any edit from an IP address editor. This includes any that are vandalism". The latter because Wtshymanski labels good faith edits as vandalism. Any genuine vandalism will get swept up by others in the usual way. To be enforced by escallating blocks if breached. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment : One, I call a procedure violation. This is not a "support with reword"; in particular, this is not a "reword". It is a different proposal completely. You need to make a new proposal for this. (Should the closing admin assume that the previous "support"s apply to your new proposal? Why? They're for a different proposal, one that still allows W. to revert IP edits, among other differences.)

Two, I guess now the "problem" has morphed into "Wtshymanski's reverts of IPs' edits are bad, and Wtshymanski labels good faith edits as vandalism". Let's see: Out of the five diffs you posted, only two showed W. accusing of "vandalism". Re the article content, those were completely justified reverts. And in each case there is completely sufficient reason to not AGF.

That leaves two actual problem reverts by W.: One was a revert against policy (restore PROD after IP deleted it). In talk page discussion W. made clear that he was surprised that IPs were allowed to block PRODs. The first time I ran into that, I was surprised too. The other was the "IR not visible so it isn't 'light'" revert, which is a factual error on W's part, not related to reverting of an IP nor to any accusations of vandalism.

But even if we accept those, that is still only two problem edits in three weeks. You haven't shown that such problems only occur when W. reverts IPs, you haven't shown any unjustifiable charges of vandalism, and you haven't shown that any problems that are demonstrated by these edits are anything but isolated incidents.

And your attempt to cast it as a "reword", attempting to roll "support"s for the original proposal 2 into "support"s for this, is particularly egregious. Jeh (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support - but don't these "restrictions" apply to every editor anyway? Andy Dingley (talk) 20:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question What are you supporting? The original Proposal 2, or DSP's so-called "reword"? Jeh (talk) 00:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Something Awful

I am concerned about the recent addition of a section on Aatrek to the Something Awful article. I thought about putting this on the BLP noticeboard, but I'm not sure if it quite qualifies.

Background: He joined SomethingAwful.com back in the mid-00s. He was made a moderator of the TV forum some time after that. Well, a year or so ago, it came to light that he had been convicted in 2007 of child molestation from the 1990s. When that came out, he was demodded and banned. Now, someone is trying to add a passage to this effect on the article for Something Awful.

I rejected it on three grounds.

1. Inadequate sourcing: there is a source saying he was a forum mod, and there is a source saying he was a sex offender, but there is no source from a third party indicating any notability to this outside of the SA community. So as it is, it comes across as forum drama. The other incidents on the page - the murderers and Slenderman - have their relationship with SA explicitly sourced.
2. BLP Coatracking: there seems to be no reason to add this to the article other than to widen knowledge of Aatrek and/or to smear SA.
3. The person who introduced it is named User:NotAAtrek, which stinks of WP:NOTHERE. But since then it's been defended by at least one other editor.

I suspect sockpuppetry, I've hit my three revert limit, and I've already received off-wiki harassment for this, so I yield and offer it to the wider community. I might be wrong, but I'd like to have more eyes on this please. --Golbez (talk) 22:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Golbez, I am sorry you have received "harassment" over this. However, your bias is obvious. You have admitted that you are a member of the Something Awful website. In addition, there are many issues with the article and points that you have raised can be applied to other sections. As you admitted on the Talk page, there are other issues which could be removed. However, you only choose to act on sections that you feel "smear" the club that you paid money to join. You refuse to act in helping clean up the citations, and instead delete the work of others while admitting obvious bias and refusing to step back. I think that is very unprofessional and goes against the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. Please hold yourself to higher standards, you're an administrator and should be above this. Editted this comment as I made it (and the edit to the Something Awful Page removing the uncited information with Sean Smith) with my logged in username. James "J.J." Evans, Jr. (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, was I supposed to keep reading after you put harassment in quotes? Interesting, you had so many words after that too. --Golbez (talk) 02:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Inadequately sourced, certainly. And of almost zero relevance to the subject of the article, as indicated by the complete lack of WP:RS actually discussing the conviction in relation to the forum. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked NotAAtrek for clearly being not here, and any unblock would be contingent on both a username change and an agreement not to edit anything related to Something Awful. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

There's also a BLP concern here, which is laid out by WP:NPF. We should not be including that information on an individual that is not notable from our perspective. That the supposed incident(s) had little to no impact on the website itself is of course the other problem. It should be kept out. §FreeRangeFrog 23:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, I didn't know it was there. That helps. --Golbez (talk) 23:12, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

James "J.J." Evans, Jr. has been blocked for BLP violations and assumptions of bad faith relating to the SA article, but he insists that he did nothing to warrant the block. However, the case is getting stranger in that an IP, 46.208.117.56 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), is claiming to be the "little sister" of the aforementioned editor and made the edits under Evans's account. Time to revoke talk page access and semi-protect the talk page along with it? —Farix (t | c) 18:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Copyvio - removal of tags by Spearmind

• Patrick Awuah, Jr. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Rocky Dawuni (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Spearmind (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

67.131.235.220 has placed speedy delete notices on Patrick Awuah, Jr. and Rocky Dawuni (which should have been copyvio notices) which have been getting edit-warred off. MyNameIsVlad followed by placing a copyvio notice on the Rocky article in this dif, which Spearmind (ouch) reverted.

Efforts by the IP and Vlad to resolve with Spear on Spear's Talk page were met with aggression (that made no sense) - see discussion here.

I have restored the tags and logged the copyvio reports, but I doubt they will stick.

In general, as you can see from his contribs Spear is a newish editor and is editing very aggressively and on bad grounds.

Please restore copyvio tags and protect articles and give Spearmind a block for COPYVIO and edit warring.

• (note - just this morning I had a bad experience with Spearmind at Conspiracy theory that led to that article getting protected)
• (note - Spearmind opened a thread on (what he thinks is incorrect) efforts to tag the articles in AN, here - whoever acts on this should close that)Jytdog (talk) 01:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Small correction: I originally converted the speedy deletion request on Rocky Dawuni to a copyvio notice (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rocky_Dawuni&diff=prev&oldid=650070007). 67.131.235.220 (talk) 01:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks Jytdog, and thanks EdJohnston for protecting the one. Both are now deleted as blatant copyright violations. If anyone wants to deny that, or has denied that and edit warred over it, perhaps they should have the rest of their contributions investigated for NOTTHEREness. Drmies (talk) 02:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Cheers, Peace Hyde (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) probably would also fall into this group, Spearmind seems to have reverted the copyvio there too. MyNameIsVlad 02:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As said Im astonished how fast articles become deleted if just a part is copied from somewhere else. It does not mean everything is copied most is real editors work. It should be fixed in an more appropriate manner giving time to have the lines in question removed not the whole article. All these people were notable.Spearmind (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I reviewed the Patrick Awuah, Jr. history, and it should be noted that it doesn't look at all like the OP makes it out. Spearmind was the THIRD person to remove the speedy deletion notice, one of whom was an admin who declined the speedy deletion request. This doesn't look like someone acting in bad faith; any editor (except an article creator of a recently created article) is allowed to remove a speedy deletion notice and attempt to fix an article instead in good faith. If there were some copyvio issues, we can excise those without deleting the article, and I'm more worried that this is being characterized as Spearmind acting unilaterally; as I note he wasn't the first to remove the speedy notice, he was the third, and an admin declined the speedy, before someone came by immediately undoing this admin action and re-tagging the article. THAT'S more disruptive than someone who is making a good-faith request for temperance. Lay off the speedy requests for a while. --Jayron32 02:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for this voice I couldnt just believe what is going on here. Thanks for reviewing. Jytdog asked for the second time within 2 days or so to block me he is absolutely not constructive in such matters. Please restore the articles! Ummm yes I came in peace.Spearmind (talk) 02:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

  I'm not going to undo the actions of other admins here, but what we need is a rational discussion of what happened, how to best fix it, and how to move forward amicably. What we don't need is people shouting at each other and demanding blocks. I'll ping the admins involved in the deletions, decline, protections, and other issues with these articles to get some more input. @Ged UK: @Drmies: @EdJohnston:. Lets try to find a way to talk this out and arrive at a solution that is best for the Encyclopedia, and try to get out of the revenge & punishment mindset here. We all want what is best, we just need to look at the material objectively, and figure out how to make this work. It may be this stuff needs to stay deleted, it may need to be restored, it may need to be started over from scratch. I don't know. But I do know that the way this is headed isn't good for anyone, and we need a new way to look at this problem. Let's look at it as a thorny content issue we need to work together with each other to make Misplaced Pages better, rather than a conflict where we need to punish people. --Jayron32 02:59, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, the IP user was told by the admin who declined his original speedy deletion request to resubmit it since the decline was due to not being able to access the original content. So his new request was simply following the directions of the admin by resubmitting and including a web archive of the page in case it goes down again. Granted, he did not wait "a day or two" but still, he was definitely acting in good faith by reapplying the tag with more information. I do agree that we should move forward from this, though. Big portions of several of those pages dinged on the copyvio report, so at the very least, that content should be removed. Since the copyright violations seem pretty extensive, we may also want to run samples of the rest of the text through Google to see if bits and bobs were not copied from other places. MyNameIsVlad 03:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Let's do that. Let's do anything except demand blocks. --Jayron32 03:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I probably erred in declining the speedy when I couldn't access the page, I should have left it for someone else as it may have been an issue on my end accessing it, for some reason. FWIW, the guy is clearly notable, and it seems he needs an article writing. There was enough in the original version to construct something that doesn't copyvio. GedUK  09:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Jayron, I don't see the thorns: it was copied to begin with. Drmies (talk) 03:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It should not be that easy shooting articles that way. Someone might play lottery with the admin in charge getting rid of articles he doesnt like. There must be strong barriers. When copyright content is challenged there is a procedure of fixing it needed. Im sure there were many good articles lost unjustified.Spearmind (talk) 03:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

There is a procedure in place, though. Both of the notices have instructions on what to do if you disagree/have further information, in the case of the speedy deletion, it's to discuss it on the article's talk page (with a big button that takes you there and has some prefilled text), and in the case of a copyvio, it's in the actual request's page (which is linked from the notice as well). The notices involved only serve as that, a notice of a requested action. It's ultimately up to the admin to look at the content and people's responses, and then make a decision. MyNameIsVlad 03:25, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Jayron32, I acknowledge that I didn't take as much time as I should have to provide all the diffs. I did check that there was copyvio (there was), and I trusted that any admin acting here would do the same. Drmies said she did. So.. done. And Spear was way out of line in removing the tags, in my view. No blocking action there again... so be it! Spear will learn to not edit so aggressively eventually, one way or another. Jytdog (talk) 03:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Spearmind should not have been removing {{copyviocore}} notices. There is a procedure for addressing these, which he did not follow. A copyvio notice is not a speedy deletion tag. The violation was already entered in the right place, Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems/2015 March 5#Rocky Dawuni. The actual violation looked fixable to me. But if Spearmind wants to make a habit of removing the copyvio tags without making any attempt at a fix, it's not likely to end well. EdJohnston (talk) 04:38, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I definitely made the mistake of using the speedy deletion banner when not 100% of the current article was copied. My analysis was that the articles started with copyrighted content and therefore it would just be better to restart with a clean slate. I won't make this assumption in the future. Spearmind saw me concentrate on Ghana articles (as said that's because I was reviewing article creations by Nkansahrexford who concentrates on Ghana) and assumed that I was on a mission to delete articles about Ghana. What I deplore is Spearmind's attitude on his talk page. I tried to establish a dialog and asked him to use the talk pages instead of just removing banners but he would not listen and became aggressively defensive.

Tonight I finished reviewing article creations by Nkansahrexford and applied one additional copyviocore banner to Thomas Mensah. A few other articles have copyvio issues but at a much smaller scale and I decided to let it go. There were also a few copyvio issues from the same user on Commons (see his talk page there).

Thanks to everybody who helped with this situation. 24.130.172.5 (talk) 06:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Wait a minute. "in the case of the speedy deletion, it's to discuss it on the article's talk page " What I saw my removing of speedy deletion boxes was immediately followed by insertion of copyvio templates. Its that the way it should work? Giving no chance of discussing the matter. Seems to copyvio template is to get rid of Rocky Dawuni, Peace Hyde and Patrick Awuah and alikes which were notable people with lots of links in the outside world. Is it so hard to understand that copyright issues need a solution far away from deleting the whole article, which was not a complete copy at all but work of many editors. Yes and I see absolutely no need to discuss removing speedy delete boxes on personal talk pages. Thats just not the right place. It must be on articles talk page but all are gone now. I deleted one copyviocore because it was an immediate reaction to my removing of speedy delete boxes. And I noticed later it should only be removed by admins. Just exchanging the template to delete an whole article not just the violation. This procedure is absolutely wrong.Spearmind (talk) 07:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You have said here that you believe that the {{Copyviocore}} procedure is wrong, and in deleting speedy tags you have said (on a number of occasions) that you disapprove of the speedy deletion process. If you disapprove of procedures, please go to the relevant talk pages and suggest improvements rather than blindly ignoring those processes which have been developed by consensus. --David Biddulph (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The pages of 3 Ghanaian are gone. Its shocking in which speed notable character articles are removed here which only to some part identified as copy. It was a question of less than 1 hour to remove the 3 articles completely giving no chance for discussion. The current extensive use of copyvio templates is unfair to all the editors worked on it. I think the board here is a good way to address that.Spearmind (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

See below. The copyvios are gone. If these persons merit articles at Misplaced Pages because they are notable, then just make new articles. No one will stop you. Just be sure that you don't make new copyvios when making the article. But if you want to start a new article properly, and write it in your own words without copying other text or "close paraphrasing" or anything else which is suspect, but start good articles on people who merit them, do that. No one here has yet told you that you cannot, and no one ever will. --Jayron32 18:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I cannot understand what the initial complaint by user: Jytdog is. Why was it filed here if the complaint is about edit warring? — it should be filed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring according to the instructions on top of the page. Why do we care that jytdog believes that user: Spearmind is aggressive? Those of us who are not wp:admins have no access to the material that has been deleted almost instantly after the notice appeared here, so there is not much point in discussing this, or is there? I would hate to think this is how decisions about blocking editors are carried out. Just my $.02. Ottawahitech (talk) 18:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ottawahitech The #1 issue, which was correctly identified by the admin Drmies, was COPYVIO on 2 articles linked at the top of this thread. Drmies deleted the articles, which is why the links above are now red. The #2 issue was the behavior of Spearmind (who was edit warring to keep the COPYVIO tags off (doubly bad)), which was given a pass. So.. all done. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You must understand only him would like to see me blocked for whatever reason. I removed Daniel Pipes working for the CIA and publishing in orbis magazin on behalf of a thinktank pronounces to serve national interests. as as his source for strange claims at the Conspiracy Theory article. Maybe he was kind of angry about that. (no offense) His behavior asking to block me actually became an issue. I dont understand the way he chooses noticeboards but you must ask that for him.Spearmind (talk) 20:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

that's not accurate, and boring.Jytdog (talk) 20:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

For you its boring, you started the subject here. Daniel Pipes as source for dubious claims on Conspiracy Theory article. Its not acceptable using terms like conspiracy theorist against real people, its a label no chance to argue. Then he kind of followed my activities. I was removing one copyvio tag when it came as immediate response to my removal of speedy deletion boxes. Later I did read that only admins SHOULD remove copyvio tags. I wanted to defend the articles at this point and let them go through discussion, but then immediately they were gone after less than an hour and while being busy here.Spearmind (talk) 20:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

even more inaccurate, and still boring. Jytdog (talk) 20:19, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

related issues at Thomas Mensah now

Currently there is edit warring going on over copyvio tags at the subject article, which the IP editor mentioned above. Spear is trying to keep the tag on (good on you this time, Spear) and the creator is blanking the page. Jytdog (talk) 14:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Well another notable person which we lose because some amount of text was copied? Someone seems to copy this stuff from ghanaweb again and again.Spearmind (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no problem with restarting the deleted article from scratch, without any copyright violations. We lose nothing if you start the article properly. Indeed, where a person is notable, and where the article needs to be deleted because the first, and all subsequent, edits in the edit history contain copyvios, the proper procedure is to delete it and start from scratch. Just to put it bluntly, Spearmind, no one is telling you that you cannot create these articles again. When deleted for being copyvios, it's because we have to expunge the copyvio from the history. If you're so concerned with having the article at Misplaced Pages, if the person merits an article, go ahead and create it yourself! No one is trying to stop you! --Jayron32 18:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Well I can "play" this game too. So "the wikipedia" wants in every case a restart no re-editing. Can I assume that? I dont think the speedy deletion templates should exist here. Anyone can take them out.Spearmind (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

No, not in every case. In cases where the article has existed essentially as mostly copyvios for their whole history, there's nothing worth preserving and they need to start from scratch. In cases where small copyvios have been added to otherwise fine articles, we clean those up. Each situation is judged individually on its own merits, and the best plan to move forward for each situation is decided based on the merits. There's no "every case". --Jayron32 01:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hoplophobia article: Recurrent IP vandalism of valid references

User 72.56.9.232/208.54.38.247 repeatedly vandalizes a legitimate reference to a valid archive of "Jeff Cooper's Diaries." Claims the reference is "link spam," which it certainly is not. This may be a legitimate understanding or it may be a ruse for POV pushing — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Diffs? Erpert 04:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The two IPs that the original poster (99.242.102.111) is referring to are 172.56.9.232 and 208.54.38.247. This is an example of one of 172.56.9.232's edits, which does considerably more than remove a reference. It introduces/restores a considerably POV commentary. However, 99.242.102.111, you are engaged in an editwar to restore the references. The place to discuss the appropriateness of this reference (and from Talk:Hoplophobia#Gunsite Gossip source, it may not be appropriate) is at the article's talk page. Incidentally, the article is now being discussed for deletion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hoplophobia (2nd nomination). Voceditenore (talk) 11:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Never heard that term until today. It's nice to know that NRA types are editing Misplaced Pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Because such people cannot be trusted to edit Misplaced Pages. Pax 20:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yep, we're all Nazis. Dick. --NE2 20:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You don't understand: the purpose of that link was to remind the trolls that not everyone interested in owning weaponry is a southern redneck or a gung-ho jarhead (i.e., the stereotyped NRA member, by snide implication to only persons desiring to keep that article). Pax 20:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

And simultaneously to remind the trolls (I'm reclaiming this term) that some of them may be Nazis who want to kill Jews without them fighting back. --NE2 21:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, are gun owners evil, or not? Or is it those who don't like guns who are evil? I'm getting confused now. ScrapIronIV (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If you're a 'roided LA SWAT unit enforcing CA gun-control at Glock-point, you're OK. Otherwise, you're ebil. Pax 22:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

NOW I understand! Thank you! Guns in the hands of government agents is good. Guns in the hands of private citizens is bad. No "What if?" questions allowed, right? It is a good thing that all governments are good, kind respectful entities that always desire the best for their citizens. ScrapIronIV (talk) 22:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Fuck the police and the wannabes posting above. --NE2 01:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Account sharing and block evasion by confirmed troll

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Icemerang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See here. User:Icemerang claims to be a shared account, one of those accounts (User:Ronaldlheureux) being a blocked refdesk troll. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

 Done Guy (Help!) 23:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Bad-faith accusation of forum-shopping

John Carter (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly accusing me of forum-shopping a DRN thread onto ANI. THE DRN thread in question had nothing to do with me and I didn't even know about it until he brought it up. (Though the user whose conduct I was complaining about was involved, though.) I initially assumed a good-faith mistake and explained (first angrily, then politely with an apology for my earlier snark) that he was mistaken. His recent activity indicates he was well-read in the DRN thread, and almost certainly knew I had nothing to do with it.

I asked for a retraction several times and he just repeated the accusation, and even after the ANI thread closed and I again asked for a retraction he posted this on my talk page.

Could someone tell him it is inappropriate to repeatedly make incorrect forum-shopping accusations against other editors after being corrected? If not, could I get an IBAN?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'll admit that what John posted on your talk page wasn't exactly the warmest sentiment, but...don't you remember when I said that you can't make someone retract their comments just because you disagree with them? And it was clear in that very long thread (btw, it was ironic that you brought up WP:TLDR at one point but then you made longer and longer comments yourself) that John wasn't the only person who thought you—and the user you reported—were forum-shopping; in fact, I brought that up first, not John. I have no opinion on an IBAN, although I do agree with him that you need to drop the stick. Erpert 04:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:Erpert: You posted your own opinion that there was forum-shopping (based on Catflap08's behaviour more than mine) on the article talk page. You later speculated that my ANI thread on Catflap08 was also forum-shopping. This was your interpretation of the facts that before you. The facts that were before you. You never lied and claimed the specific topic Catflap08 snd I were conflicting over was the subject of an open DRN thread. John Carter did this, without making any reference to you. You and I had a "disagreement", and I never asked you to retract your posts because you were neither posting based on a gross misunderstanding nor lying. I initially assumed that once I clarified for John Carter that his understanding of events was wrong he would be so embarrassed by the mistake that he would retract all his comments and apologize. Then I realized that what he had done was not make a mistake but deliberately lie about my activities. What John Carter and I have is not a "disagreement": he is lying about me and I want him to stop. As for WP:STICK: If I was still actively requesting a TBAN or block for Catflap08, maybe that would apply, but I withdrew that request two days ago. Now I'm asking for someone to tell a different user to quit his persistent and unjustified attacks against me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

John's completely inexcusable insinuation is a clear violation of NPA and can be seen as a continuation of efforts to insult and degrade individuals. I make no secret of the fact that I have been involved in the Soka Gakkai material for some time now. Also, if you bothered to actually look, you will note that the topics merit being covered, see how much material can be found on them, and then try to determine weight. Honestly, that is to my eyes probably the most reasonable way to proceed.

Please make some sort of visible attempt to act in accord with conduct guidelines in the future. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoltAsResearch (talk • contribs) 06:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:JoltAsResearch: was this meant for John Carter's talk page? Your use of the second person implies you are talking to me, but I don't think I've ever interacted with you. Apart from the fact that JC randomly brought up Soka Gakkai in an unrelated ANI thread, and the above post randomly brought up Soka Gakkai in an unrelated ANI thread, I don't see how any of the above is related in any way to my complaint of false accusations or anything Erpert said. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC) (edited 10:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC) )

Yes, what is all that about? Erpert 09:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• JoltAsResearch is now blocked by User:HJ Mitchell for being an "obvious bad hand account". Thanks Harry--but you only just beat me to it, and to the $10 check from the WMF. Drmies (talk) 15:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

First I think it worth noting that Jolt shows the same simplistic understanding and virtual obsession with NPA in the above comment that Tgeairn has rather regularly demonstrated, and that on that basis the comment provides additional support for the conclusion that this is, in fact, a sockpuppet of Tgeairn.

Regarding Hijiri's statements, it seems to me that even in his response to Erpert above there seems to be a rather obvious insistence that Hijiri can, basically, do no wrong. And, frankly, considering that Hijiri himself has demonstrated a remarkable tendency to using obvious, frankly obnoxious, and completely unsupportable personal attacks such as "jackass" and "jerk," I find his sudden aversion to anyone questioning his sometimes dubiously rational and wildly emotional responses amusing. John Carter (talk) 18:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I suppose it's possible that Tgeairn has a sock drawer, but only in the sense that it's possibly for anyone to have it. I doubt it very much. Hijiri, one cannot make an editor retract something; the best thing you can do is say "dude you're wrong", remove it from your talk page, and consider banning him from your talk page. I agree with Erpert that "what John posted on your talk page wasn't exactly the warmest sentiment", and I could phrase that a bit more strongly, but it's not really actionable. If, however, the action you're looking for is an admin saying "John don't do that anymore", I can give you that much: John, please don't do that anymore. I can't and won't block for such a comment, but it's really unhelpful. At the same time, though, Hijiri, ANI may not be the best place for such a request. Drmies (talk) 18:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: I specifically asked for an IBAN. This user showed up randomly on an ANI thread and posted lies about me in order to derail a discussion of his friend Catflap08's indisputably bad behaviour. He accused me of doing the exact same thing Catflap08 had done, and he was completely silent on it when his friend did it. If Catflap08 comes back and continues the same disruptive behaviour, I need to be sure he can't count on his friend John Carter to always bail him out no matter what happens. Entirely aside from that, it bothers me when people post lies about me. I'm pretty sure ANI is the place to ask for an IBAN with a user who has been harassing me like this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry; I missed the last words of your opening statement. I am not in favor of iBans, and I wagged my finger, so I'm out. Drmies (talk) 00:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• I rather think the odds of his having a sockpuppet are rather better than you do, obviously. The sometimes superficial nature of many of the comments and, possibly, thinking seen in both is to my eyes indicative of a linkage. And, frankly, I am unaware of any policies or guidelines which indicate that one cannot or should not question the actions of others if they believe those actions are in violation of policies or guidelines. There does seem to my eyes to be some basis in thinking that the hypersensitivity that I have regularly seen, and sometimes comment on, in Tgeairn, as well as the apparent view that policies and guidelines seem to only apply to individuals other than themselves, may not be limited to him. And, FWIW, considering I have been working to finish the content from one source relevant to the Bibliography of encyclopedias: general biographies as a primary action for the past several days, I acknowledge having given a cursory overview of my own talk page and just today saw Hijiri's comments there. I actually am not used to getting many messages there on the same day, and, in this case, I acknowledge I didn't check the page entirely. John Carter (talk) 19:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Remind me again, what part of forum shopping it here was a good idea? Guy (Help!) 23:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you talking to me or the sockpuppet? If me, it's because ANI is the best place (as far as I know) to ask for sanctions against a user who has been lying about me in order to deliberately derail legitimate discussion of his friend's inappropriate conduct. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:John Carter

John, including the above you have directly and indirectly accused me of sock puppetry at least six times in the past 24 hours. Additionally, you have made all manner of statements about my ability to edit, read, follow policy, etc. You are a former admin here and you know damned well exactly how to report sockpuppets, POV issues, behavioural issues, etc. It is not by going to multiple talk pages and slinging mud.

I request an immediate block for John Carter for these personal attacks and unfounded accusations, as well as his behaviour in general with editors that he disagrees with. He has been warned repeatedly and in many venues, and has not slowed even a bit. At his request, I am not notifying John of this thread. I am pinging him though. Thank you. Tgeairn (talk) 23:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

First, I thank you for explicitly stating your obvious contempt for policies and guidelines by having the gall to state that you have pointedly refused to abide by the standards at the top of the page. Also, it would be worth noting that, so far as I can tell, being a former administrator does not necessarily mean that one knows "exactly" every variant rule, and that very few people knowing much about the rules would even think to say such a thing. An SPI case has in fact been filed regarding the above editor, and I personally think that the timing of this might well have been to prevent such in what may well be a desperate attempt to avoid the possible sockpuppetry being investigated. It is also worth noting that, unlike some others, I have been active on other sites today, including wikisource, and it was only in the last few minutes, actually, since I started the SPI page, that I got the ping regarding this message. It is also worth noting, as has been done before, including the recent AE regarding him, that the above editor has a seemingly deeply flawed and obsessive regard for what he mistakenly calls "personal attacks" as per NPA. John Carter (talk) 23:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused; why is this block request a subsection of an ANI thread that someone else started? Erpert 07:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Why is it that every time I post something on ANI the thread almost immediately gets hijacked by someone with a bone to pick that has nothing whatsoever to do with the concern I raised and who apparently didn't even read my OP.

Move to close (the whole discussion, including mine) with no result. This thread too became a fustercluck that's unlikely to have any positive outcome. To the best of my knowledge the only time John Carter and I have ever interacted other than indirectly (I'm pretty sure JC might have also commented on that historicity of Jesus fustercluck a few months back) was earlier this week over the Catflap08 debacle. I asked for an IBAN because that would have prevented John Carter from again rushing to post bullshit about me in order to defend his friend Catflap08, but that's not really necessary anymore. Enough users have figured out that the latter's constant misrepresentation of sources is either severe incompetence or maliciousness that he'll get a TBAN or block soon enough, and I don't need to worry about JC getting in the way of that.

As an aside, in the future I'll try to be more careful when posting ANI threads about users to do thorough background checks on them first, to make sure that no one can wrongly accuse me of being involved in a DRN discussion with them at the time, and that no obvious sockpuppets are harassing the subject and will likely hijack my ANI thread with even more bullshit.

And yes, User:Erpert, I am aware of the irony of saying the thread has become TLDR in the middle of my own TLDR comment. My point was never to accuse specific other users of posting comments that were too long: I meant that posting bullshit off-topic comments, no matter how short each one is, can build up and make the thread unreadable. My own individually TLDR comments have all been posted in threads that were already irredeemably TLDR, so one more long comment couldn't hurt. As an aside, why, when I posted apologies to you, JC, and Doncrum earlier, did only Doncrum accept, while you and JC responded like I had just attacked you? I got the very distinct impression that you hadn't actually read the comment.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

User page used for canvassing

Hello,

Could an admin please take a look at this user page, being used to canvass editors inappropriately to a Commons deletion request, to judge whether it is appropriate and what action is appropriate if not. Note that the editor in question is a recent (and acknowledged) return of User:Ecemaml (see meta:User:Discasto), i.e. is not as new as his contribution list would make it appear. Thanks, Kahastok talk 07:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Deletion request closed as speedy keep. —Soap— 13:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

How can I have canvassed anyone? The very same WP:CANVASS policy describes it very well when talking about notifications. Have I notified anyone? --Discasto (talk) 17:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC) PS: as former commons administrator I do know what's the name for the spurious deletion attempt in commons (fortunately, Commons is not censored)

I believe that to be Wikilawyering. It was clearly campaigning to get people to support you in the deletion request. This isn't about the question of the deletion so I shan't comment on it.

But the user page remains, now accusing anyone who disagreed with Discasto in the DR of "politically motivated censorship", which would seem to be a clear violation of WP:AGF and WP:POLEMIC. Do we feel that this is appropriate on Misplaced Pages? Kahastok talk 18:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

BLP violation, edit warring and sockpuppet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• IllyrianDodona (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps insisting on false, unreferenced information at BLPs Mirnes Pepić (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (diff 2), and earlier on Marko Baša (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (diff). I have asked him for sources, given none, and warned him after his editwarring. He in turn gave me a customized warning (here); Interestingly, Bato Lumbardhaj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who signs as "Bato the Illyrian" also gave me a customized warning (here) from nowhere. I believe these accounts are used by one person. Zoupan 08:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I have reverted them for the BLP violation and will warn. I can't judge the possibly socking right now; perhaps starting an SPI is the way to go. Drmies (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Urgent admin oversight needed over an IP account

See the revision history at Ottoman empire. The IP's have been personally attacking users with very insulting remarks. Étienne Dolet (talk) 09:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected by Fut.Perf.. Stickee (talk) 09:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Sticker Although I genuinely appreciate Future Perfect at Sunrise's good faith effort, I think semi-protection solves only part of the problem. The IP accounts called other users cockroaches and many other unspeakable personal insults. Do these IP account not merit a block? Or else, were at risk of getting insulted elsewhere. Étienne Dolet (talk) 09:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, they certainly "merit" blocks, but since they are IP-hopping anyway, a block would have no concrete effect at all (unless it was a very large rangeblock). Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll just gently throw into the mix that some of the other comments have not been particularly civil either, so it looks like the IP has just responded in kind. Dr.K. should not be calling other editors bigots, IP or not. Ritchie333 11:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

When they express clearly bigoted views, that's hardly unwarranted. The IP was not "just responding" to unprovoked uncivil comments. Paul B (talk) 15:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying the IP wasn't at fault, and I think semi-protecting the article was the right call ... but when faced with these sort of abusive comments, the best thing to do is keep a cool head and not retaliate. Ritchie333 15:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Different meaning of "just", Paul. Drmies (talk) 17:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Really? How? Just about the only justifiable meaning of 'just' I can derive from Ritchie333's statement is 'merely', which is how I used it. Paul B (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

"Just" as in "just now". Drmies (talk) 02:23, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"Stupid personal attack" is possibly unnecessary but mild in comparison to the IP's language (I'm about to remove one edit summary); Dr.K., thanks. Drmies (talk) 17:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• This is very important, so make sure when you answer you can provide evidence: has there been any change at all to any instances of "ottoman empire" or "turkish empire"? Ping me when you reply please, and I'll check any evidence you have for a comparison. TomStar81 (Talk) 07:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Violation of Troubles Restrictions 1RR

The following IP Special:Contributions/86.188.201.211 has violated the 1RR that is imposed on articles and issues that are to do with or related to the Troubles Restrictions. In this instance their insistence on using Derry for the county when per WP:IMOS it is Londonderry, and their insistence of Ireland as the country over the actual country, which is Northern Ireland. The article of violation if Slaughtneill GAC, edits having taken place today.

I had informed the IP of this restriction only a few hours before they decided to do go ahead and revert again. Only two days ago after making a change at Kilrea GAC which was reverted by User:John of Reading who also left the IP a message notifying of the issue, the IP reverted within the space of half an hour. Whether this constitutes two violations of the 1RR (one which occurred after being notified of the Troubles Restrictions) or just one I leave up to admins.

All 21 or whatever of their edits across various GAA articles this month have all revolved around changing this information.

I also gave the IP a NPOV caution, to which User:Murry1975 has since given them a formal warning for disruptive editing.

The IP had been notified about WP:DERRY, WP:IMOS and WP:IRE-IRL by three different editors at his talk page prior to their 1RR violation so they know what manual of style must be used on this issue.

Mabuska 16:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on NI politics (I prefer to just drive up the Antrim Coast Road and look out of the window) but I believe in the case of Slaughtneill GAC, the Gaelic Athletic Association uses different county names to the Northern Irish government, so "County Derry" can be considered correct. Therefore, I would strongly advise against anyone reverting with a summary of "rvv" and highly recommend using the talk page. As you've also breached 1RR (, ), so take care! Ritchie333 16:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If I may. The other team articles use 'County Londonderry' in their content :) GoodDay (talk) 16:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It's highly likely (I won't go the SPI route) that the IP is a ban/block evading editor, as we've seen an IP:86.xxx around these Ireland/Northern Ireland related articles before. Anyways, there's an agreement that Derry is used for the city & County Londonderry is used for the county. BTW, both are within Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ritchie333 there is an agreed WP:IMOS in regards to this situation. Also we are stating "County Londonderry, Northern Ireland" for the actual geopoliical location of the club and that is not dictated by the GAA. The second sentence of all these club articles does make reference to the clubs belonging "Derry GAA" which satisfies what the GAA call it. If we followed your suggestion then the whole Misplaced Pages Ireland project would be a mess with editors using "so and so use it so use that" as a reason for mass edits and resulting edit-wars. It is why we have the WP:IMOS and things like the Troubles Restrictions.

Also I have reverted an IP that is being disruptive and is now vandalising as they have been told of the IMOS so my reverts of them in my view do not constitute breaching 1RR. Mabuska 16:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Understand that, but sports (certainly Rugby union which is incredibly popular all over Ireland) originate from a time when the entire Island of Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, and hence the nomenclature used is something of a grandfather clause (note how teams play for the province of Ulster, which includes both Northern Ireland and the Republic). If consensus is to use "County Londonderry" full stop, everywhere, no if no buts, that's okay (and indeed it's what I use), but it does mean I'm twitchy about it being "obvious vandalism". Ritchie333 16:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism or not it violates the 1RR Troubles Restrictions. And yes the consensus is to use County Londonderry full stop regardless, just like consensus is to use Derry for the city full stop regardless. That is what WP:DERRY makes very clear. Mabuska 16:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I just get the heebie-geebies about the word "vandalism".... Ritchie333 16:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough but after being warned and notified of the manual of styles and 1RR Troubles Restriction it can easily be construed as vandalism. Mabuska 16:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If the IP is who I think it is, the IP will need to be blocked as it likely won't stop reinserting what it prefers. GoodDay (talk) 16:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP editor three days for the 1RR violation and alerted them about the discretionary sanctions under the WP:TROUBLES case. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Ritchie333, consensus is to use Londonderry for the county and Derry for the city, if an editor is to was ] when refering to the county GAA team that would be fine too. This "new" editor seems to be making a point. An unfortunate amount of time is spent on these reverts and there is a certain perception that making many such edits may be vandalism, my own view is it is POV and against consensus for the first few times, after that just purely disruptive. Thanks EdJohnston for the intervention, but it hasn't had the lasting effect Special:Contributions/80.4.175.165. Murry1975 (talk) 19:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's more or less the conclusion I've come to. I think the main difference is I would revert, block, ignore - wouldn't bother reverting without a block first; an obvious POV pusher (which this was) would just revert again and again and again. And calling it "vandalism" runs the risk of a long and tedious or abuse explanation of why it isn't. Anyway, IP blocked, article stabilised, I guess we're all done here. Ritchie333 21:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately User talk:Ritchie333 the article hadn't stabilised with the block and the issue done with. As User:Murry1975 pointed out, a new IP (geolocated to the same county) suddenly appeared since the block to do the exact same edit on that specific article. This is obviously now a case of sockpuppetry and thus block evasion. Though User:EdJohnston has since semi-protected the article thankfully to prevent IP edits which should now stabilise the article. Whether the IP will now play ball and adapt to Misplaced Pages policies is up to them. Mabuska 23:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Haffy881 and copyright issues

Haffy881 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

(Retitled to "User:Haffy881 and copyright issues" from non-neutral "Haffy881 and massive amounts of copyright infringements" per wp:TALKNEW. --doncram 21:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC))

I stumbled on this editor adding massive amounts of text to articles. A quick google search found they they are cutting and pasting text from other websites into wikipedia. I reverted them with links to the original sources (Examples: one, two, and three) but this goes way back before today. This is copied from last month. Every time I revert an edit and give them a warning, they wait a few hours and do it again. Helpsome (talk) 18:40, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I hold no brief for this editor, Haffy881, who seems not to read his own talk page, but I believe the Edit summary should be written in plain English, which these three examples are not. GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I linked to the policy and provided the source URL where the content was taken from. I can't exactly type a paragraph in there. Helpsome (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I've gone through Haffy881's contribs and cleaned up one other article. I have placed a final warning on the user's talk page and will monitor their contributions. Any further copyright violations will result in an indef block. Thank you for reporting this problem, Helpsome. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Twitter link ban?

There is a User, Ronz, who has been quite prolific in their removal of the Twitter (along with Instagram, IMDB, and similar sites) from seemingly any article that they come across. Misplaced Pages:External_links/Perennial_websites#Twitter notwithstanding which states that Twitter is generally not acceptable as an External Link except "for official links when the subject of the article has no other Web presence." Is it now "open season" on Twitter links? The existence of the Twitter template {{twitter|"subject"|subject title}} seems almost bizarre if this is sufficient justification for the wholesale removal of links to Twitter site wide. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:41, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The existence of a template does not change Misplaced Pages's guideline, WP:ELNO, which is pretty clear on the matter. No Twitter links. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

There are some exceptions that are allowed, especially the one listed in WP:Twitter. --Ronz (talk) 19:49, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, so then which of these entries did not meet the criteria for exceptions since most have "no other web presence". You deleted every single External Link from the page including those for IMDB which are allowed per WP:EL/P. Here too . --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 20:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, your inquiry leads one to believe you have not approached Ronz with your concerns before raising the issue here. I apologize if my impression is wrong. Tiderolls 20:59, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Tide rolls, yep, wrong impression. Apology accepted, but not necessary, thanks. I try to have more respect for ANI than to run to it as a default. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, if you look on the articles' talk pages you'll see that I linked past ELN discussions (of which this is most relevant). You'll see there (and elsewhere in the relevant discussions) that ELOFFICIAL doesn't apply to individual entries in a list. --Ronz (talk) 21:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Just my 2¢ - As far as I know - If the BLP has an official website - We remove per WP:ELNO, If they don't have an official website then we should list them. –Davey2010 21:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• That is my understanding also. We try to provide information. Even on a list. DGG ( talk ) 00:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'm with Ronz here. No article, no links--Twitter or otherwise. Drmies (talk) 00:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hey Drmies, as for the article vs. list aspect, if that is the mitigating factor, sobeit, but DGG makes a good basic point. The subjects in the example above do not have official websites, so that is why their Twitter links were included, a stated exception. You're saying that because its a list article, it should not have Twitter (or any other social networking) External links at all? --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Mispelling in robots.txt

Consider http://en.wikipedia.org/robots.txt - probably one of the most important robots.txts in the whole world.

But it has a mispelling in a comment!

The correct spelling of "machine" is not "maschine"".

Please fix this at once. 217.43.5.204 (talk) 01:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

If you didn't fix it yourself, it's your own fault. Misplaced Pages only exists because people who care make it better. Since you care, it is your responsibility (and no one elses) to make it better. --Jayron32 01:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Site config's editable by ips now? News to me. —Cryptic 01:32, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

This isn't editable on the en.wiki project, it'll need to be added at Phabricator. Nakon 01:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

It's a comment, so who cares, but it was a great way to bring out kneejerk SOFIXIT comments. --NE2 01:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

My bad. Thought it was an article he was complaining about. I've been rightfully admonished. --Jayron32 02:00, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

To be fair to Jayron32, the IP is the one who linked to robots.txt in the section title . They did link to the correct location in their comments, and their comments also sort of imply they were talking about a real robots.txt rather than an article on it, but it's fairly confusing to link to 2 differnet things. Nil Einne (talk) 13:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

WOT Services

Please take a look at the activity over at WOT Services. The article has a history of manipulation by those involved with the company. For a few years now user Weatherfug has been obstructing critical edits. When the article is edited for balance or when the unbalanced tag is applied, the user claims vandalism. Recently, the admin JZG has become involved. He uses his administrative powers to push his editorial agenda. Readers will note that neither Weatherfug or JZG/GUY are willing to engage on the talk page. Instead they revert without discussion.

JZG has offered the explanation "Nobody cares" in his edit summary. I suggest that if the user does not care about article quality, that he refrain from editing it. Many users have voiced their dissatisfaction on the talk page. Many have tried to edit the article over the years, only to be discouraged by obstructionist reversions.

Weatherfug's last comments on the page are "The discussion is over" In lieu of discussing the issue the users posts on JZW's talk page. Previously Weatherfug had been posting on multiple notice boards in an attempt to exclude IPs from editing. Respondents at these noticeboards noted that "The IP editor has a point" and the NPOV board found that the article was unbalanced. During this time I did not attempt to edit the article due to the apparent futility of the process. I had been simply tagging the article as unbalanced.

After a 3rd opinion which established that the article was unbalanced, I found a source at The Nation which was previously unused in the article. After I had posted the source on the talk page, Weatherfug did decide to include it. However, his wording misconstrued the critical information provided by the source in an apologetic tone. As I was advised by a 3rd opinion editor that I must edit the article myself, I attempted to clarify what was written at The Nation. Unfortunately, the predictable pattern of obstruction has continued.

I do not expect that users will always agree 100% on article content. However the techniques used to exclude and discourage others at WOT Services seem contrary to Misplaced Pages's goals. Apologies in advance if this is not the right place to bring this issue.36.252.1.178 (talk) 03:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• I read the talk page going back to December. You seem to have been trying to add this material for a long time, this poorly verified and trite material verified only here in an FAQ, not an article written by a journalist and vetted by an editorial board, about an incredibly minor thing--minor in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure that at the time it was a considerable nuisance to The Nation, though what time that was, no one knows, since the FAQ isn't even dated. I assume your NPOV tag is based on the exclusion of the Nation material, and is thus also invalid.

  What we have here is stonewalling, wikilawyering of the worst kind, in a passive-aggressive way that no doubt greatly irritates other editors. Whether JzG is involved in some article content or not is irrelevant: any admin who looks into this would have semi-protected it, and if the IP keeps this up then maybe the talk page ought to be protected as well. As far as I'm concerned, this IP should be topic-banned from this article. Drmies (talk) 04:47, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The source was perfectly acceptable for Weatherfug & JZG when it was being misconstrued. Why is it suddenly unacceptable when it is clarified? The reason given in the edit summary was that it is a blog. If JZG had stated that it were unacceptable because it is a FAQ page, we would not be here. Is The Nation a blog? The other reason given was a section heading issue, which was addressed. I am no wikilawyer, if anything I am less familiar with how things work here than others. I have repeatedly asked other's opinions. In fact, I asked before inserting the passage, but no one had anything to say. Others who are concerned with the balance of the article have already been driven off.36.252.1.178 (talk) 06:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

For a period of at least two years, a series of IPs all, I am told, geolocating to Nepal (I haven't checked because it is pretty obviously all one person or a small group of people) have been relentlessly adding poorly sourced negative material to this article and tagging is as biased, any time the material is removed or toned down. The specific text being edit-warred in by the IP at the moment is a section headed Inaccurate ratings, based on the story of an apparent false positive affecting The Nation and supported only by an FAQ page on The Nation's own website. The only thing that can be said for this version is that it is better than Inaccurate and Biased Ratings which was the IP's original preferred title (and also edit-warred when someone tried to tone it down).

All the IP has ever had to do is to bring reliable independent secondary sources to substantiate the veracity and significance of these errors. I can't trace any attempt to do so, or any evidence of understanding of our sourcing guidelines. In short, then, this is almost certainly a single user with a bee in their bonnet. Only one thing surprises me: that the complaints concern a political magazine. The major source of claims of bias against WOT is the subculture of quacks and conspiracy kooks. Guy (Help!) 09:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I am tangentially involved in this dispute, having offered a 3O last December (after which I unwatched it). Looking at what has happened since, it seems to me that the case belongs on the Dispute resolution noticeboard rather than here. Since it is here, however, I would like to note a couple of things that disturb me:

1. WeatherFug has consistently addressed the IP with the patronizing "Dear user with the ever-changing Nepalese IP". On JzG's talk page this has become "Troll with the ever changing Nepalese IP". This is uncivil and he should be asked to stop.
2. JzG, very much a party to the dispute, has protected the page twice, on 30 January and yesterday. This looks to me like an abuse of admin privileges.

I would be happy to offer an opinion on the content issue if it was raised in the proper forum. Scolaire (talk) 09:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm a party to enforcing WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:RS. That is pretty much the entirety of my involvement with that article. If people want to add properly sourced critique then they can go right ahead. Anonymous hatchet jobs? Not so much. I do think a review of Weatherfug's contributions is probably worth doing. I haven't looked precisely because I don't want to get drawn in. As I stated above, all the anon has to do to get his preferred content into the article is to bring some half-decent sources to the talk page. I am an occasional user of WOT, I have no connection to it and don't give a damn beyond what is said in Misplaced Pages's voice based on self-evidently inadequate sourcing. As an aside, the IP should register an account, that would make it much easier for the other editors of the article to interact with him.

If I thought WP:DR would help, I'd have sent them there. I don't think the IP is interested resolving the dispute and I don't suppose Weatherfug is either. The immediate question of whether we should include a section calling into question the reliability of a service based on a single incident documented only on the website of the other party to the dispute, answers itself. Poorly sourced negative material comes out until it has been discussed. The IP believes the opposite, hence I semi-protected the article. The parties can work it out on Talk, during which time we do not say, with Misplaced Pages's voice, that WOT is biased based on the say-so of a political website without the benefit of any independent review or coverage. Because, you know, this is kind of obvious.

Standard terms apply: any admin who thinks the action should be undone, is free to do so. I personally don't see any other way of controlling this relentless addition of poorly sourced material, but if someone else wants to take a shot then be my guest. I am off to spend the day singing Poulenc's mass in G and a requiem by Pizzetti so can't respond quickly in the mean time. If an IP address geolocating to Goring-on-Thames adds a section to the article on Francis Poulenc to the effect that he hated basses, sourced to a scan of the closing bars of the Gloria, you'll know who it was. Guy (Help!) 09:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Whatever your motives, you were reverting the IP's and ScrapIronIV's edits – with tendentious edit summaries – and you were involved in discussion on the talk page. Therefore you were a party to the dispute. As an admin you know there is a page for requesting protection. You should have gone there if you wanted the page protected. Scolaire (talk) 09:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Have a look at the talk page and the edits I have made. Decide for yourself if JzG is presenting the issue fairly in his telling of the story. (and also edit-warred when someone tried to tone it down). I repeatedly tried to engage on the talk page. I did modify what I reinserted to respect the concerns of others. I am interested in resolving this dispute. I have asked for compromise. I do ask for good faith. Where I could have been more polite, I apologize and recognize that I can improve. The passage was being misconstrued in a way that implied the mistake was on the part of The Nation, when the source clearly stated that the user responsible for the negative rating admitted fault. Look at the contributions of others who have also spoken to the unbalanced nature of the write-up. Even the NPOV board said as much. Anonymous hatchet jobs Is it appropriate to pressure IPs into registering? all the anon has to do to get his preferred content into the article is to bring some half-decent sources to the talk page You removed it stating that it was a blog. I agreed that the word bias was not appropriate because I can not reference the disclaimer used by WOT, as that is primary sourcing. Because The Nation is not a blog I put the passage back, without the word bias. Before inserting this passage I asked for your comment. You say all I need to do is find an appropriate source, but when I do find a source, it is misconstrued. When I clarify, the source is no longer acceptable for you. This seems duplicitous to me. Naturally, I can continue to find more sources, but it seems a bit futile if I am going to be obstructed at every step. The name calling etc. is not important to me. We are all adults here, you may use whatever language you feel is most suitable. I am not here to complain about those things. However, I do expect a logically consistent discussion that focuses on the content of my actions, not my identity, where I reside, or how I connect to the Internet via dynamic IP addresses. I can only take responsibility for my actions. I am not responsible for the lack of competent ISPs in my area.36.252.1.189 (talk) 12:20, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"For a period of at least two years, a series of IPs all, I am told, geolocating to Nepal (I haven't checked because it is pretty obviously all one person or a small group of people) have been relentlessly adding poorly sourced negative material" I had only tagged the article until after the 3rd opinion, when I was advised to edit the article. Check for yourself. Why does JzG seek to misrepresent this? 36.252.1.189 (talk) 12:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

A more pertinent question is, why are you so determined to insert poorly sourced negative material? I have no problem with properly sourced criticism in that article, the issue has always been that the content of the (usually tendentiously titled) WP:CRITICISM section has never had anything approaching proper sourcing. The solution is, just as it always has been for over two years, bring better sources. Or give up. Either works, in a way that constantly adding poorly sourced critical material does not. Per policy. WP:RS has strong support, WP:NPOV requires reliable sources for critical commentary, whereas WP:LETMEADDTHISPRIMARYSOURCEDCRITICISM ORTHEARTICLEISAWHITEWASH is not widely accepted. Your edits were disruptive. You can fix that by sourcing them properly or stopping. End of. Guy (Help!) 23:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Weatherfug added the source after I posted it on the talk page. You reverted to Weatherfug's version of the passage when you were edit warring with ScrapIronIV. If the source is unacceptable, why did you not remove it at that time? The source was acceptable when it was being misconstrued. When it was clarified, you objected. The edit history and talk page covers it all. Readers should check there and decide for themselves.36.252.1.189 (talk) 01:49, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Scolaire: YOu say tendentious edit summaries. The text I removed was:

Political magazine ] received a negative rating from WOT Services for their outgoing emails. The Nation inquired with the user responsible for the rating, who admitted that he had erroneously rated the domain. The magazine called upon readers who felt compelled, to help to improve the rating.<ref>{{cite web|title=FAQ: Web of Trust|url=http://www.thenation.com/web-trust|date=|accessdate=17 January 2015|publisher=]}}</ref> On March 31, 2014 a WOT power user (who's ratings carry greater weight than others) had negatively rated the domain, accusing it of distributing ].

The statement that "nobody cares" is not tendentious. If anybody cared. there would, by now, be a reliable secondary source for this repeatedly added text. I do not care about the text (or indeed the article subject), I do care about the relentless addition of critical material of this nature based solely on the self-published content of an involved party. Excluding such content is not even remotely controversial. I have no idea where I first heard fo the article, most likely it was OTRS, all I know is that when I see junk content like that in an article, I remove it, as any Wikipedian should. If supported by reliable sources, I would have done nothing. It never has been. Over a looooooong time. Sooner or later, the obvious has to be done. Guy (Help!) 23:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

self-published content of an involved party. Can you please explain how this is relevant to the discussion? Where did you remove self-published material from the article?36.252.1.189 (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that JzG should not have used his admin priviledges to settle a content dispute in which he is a participant. Whether this constitutes an "abuse" of privileges is up for debate, although I note that JzG was recently warned not to invoke his admin status during a content dispute, so he should have been a little more careful in this aspect. As for his usage of tendentious language, I think there is a fine line between being direct and being abusive, but JzG has clearly crossed this line when he began to use words like "fucking ridiculous" and "I have been an admin since a long time before your first edit". As far as don't bite the newcomers is concerned, this recent attempt to invoke one's admin status during a content dispute is completely uncalled for. It is an inexcusable action because this administrator had already been warned not to do that. -A1candidate 23:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

reoccuring disruptive behavior

I don`t know how to go about this..there is an editor who seems to be borderline disruptive http://en.wikipedia.org/User:SaintAviator 66.177.244.25 (talk) 03:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I see an equal (and equally pointless, from both sides) argument over inconsequential things between yourself and that editor. Instead of "reporting" someone because they argued with you, you could, you know, walk away from the argument, find something else at Misplaced Pages to do, and do nothing about it. That'd work too. --Jayron32 03:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

You`re probably right..however this person seems to be unable to not have the last word..I`ve about had enough of trying to express an opinion here or anywhere else on the internet for that matter..my guess is you havn`t heard the last of him. 66.177.244.25 (talk) 20:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted that this is a admited sock of User:Lonepilgrim007 who has a long history of being warned on disrupting talk pages. He abdoned his account and started editing from an IP after he was given a last warning on both his talk page and on the Arthur Phelps talk page . He continues to totally ignore all policy and attack others when they disagree with him. Nice little WP:BOOMERANG here. 72.188.95.203 (talk) 20:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

As a perfect example this editor is now approaching me on my talk page claiming they were told to discuss things further with me. You can see on the Lost colony talk page where this user despite being warned for years at this point simply continues to use talk pages as forums. Here he admits he is a sock of Lonepilgrim and admits he just wants to chat and not work on the article. It's like an annoying gnat that wont stop flying into your face. 72.188.95.203 (talk) 21:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Repeated violations of BLP, WP:AVOIDVICTIM at Hector Camacho

There have been half a dozen or more almost identical edits such as the one deleted here adding that a private person was the fiancee of the deceased. The editors all appear to be the same person. They have all been invited to provide documentation and participate in talk. They have all been warned that they are violating the supposed fiancee's BLP and Notavictim rights on their talk pages, as well as in the article's discussion page. I suggest Deerborn be blocked indefinitely, and the IP's be blocked per discretion of the admins here. Thanks.

Last revereted delete of edits by Deerborn

of edits by IP1

Warning to IP1 (User talk:2602:306:BC7F:A5A0:E086:A266:76CB:F7EC) Note, there are several other IP editors in the same range doing the same thing.

of edits by IP2

warning to IP2 (User talk:50.253.237.158)

See also reversions by other editors such as Epicgenius who has removed the offending material, and

User talk:2602:306:BC7F:A5A0:406:E12:1FFC:7BCA who added it and was also warned on his talk page.

μηδείς (talk) 04:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• I've semi-protected the article, as this is a pretty slow-moving but insidious revert war; the person behind it (it clearly looks like one person) is using a variety of random accounts and hard-to-block IPs. semi-protection seems the only viable option for now. I'll leave the blocking/banning discussion to happen by others. But this should stop the problem. A single block would do little good in stopping this, as the person seems to be fine with jumping around. --Jayron32 04:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you can safely indef Deerborn, Jayron32 or others, since he has two whole edits, both to add information to this article, and was warned explicitly early yesterday before he decided to restore the problematic information now. μηδείς (talk) 05:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Commenting here per a notice from Medeis. I'd only reverted their edits since that was a violation of BLP, but as AVOIDVICTIM can also be applied here, I endorse a block of indefinite duration. Epic Genius (talk) 13:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sources on Denver rail articles

Hi. 174.16.208.234, who has also edited as 147.153.168.23, (they geolocate as home and university respectively) has repeatedly inserted material into articles relating to FasTracks that the Northwest Rail Line, a component of this plan, has been cancelled (, , ). If you look at the sources they cited (, , ), this is untrue: the line has simply been put on the back burner compared to a rapid bus service in the same corridor. They also reverted my edits with under the guise of reverting vandalism (, , ), which is patently false even if I'm wrong on the content aspect, then kindly gave me a warning ()—I don't think I've ever got one before. Conifer (talk) 06:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Getting an occasional warning from an IP or brand new editor is usually just a sign that you're doing interesting things, I wouldn't worry about it. Since they titled the section on your page 'accidental vandalism' (which isn't a thing,) it's a pretty good sign that instead of intending any malice they just think their representation is more accurate and don't realize that a content dispute isn't vandalism. Nothing really sanction-worthy that I can see, I'll drop a note on their home IP address (since many uni IPs are shared and notes to them are often read by unintended parties without ever reaching the right party. Kevin Gorman (talk) 06:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't mean it in a bad way. No matter the context, it's still amusing to be on the other end of a UW notice, since I've given out so many. Thanks for the semi-protection; hopefully we can work this out on the talkpage. Conifer (talk) 06:35, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Always makes me laugh too, I just figured I'd make sure :). One of my funnier on-wiki moments was a rather interesting user getting annoyed I AfD'ed their article opening an SPI on me, heh. Feel free to poke me if the problem persists and I don't notice it. Kevin Gorman (talk) 06:39, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Multiple promotion attempts

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

While new page patrolling, I came across Raihanul shezan, a page created by Raihanul shezan a future (talk · contribs). A review of the user's contributions and talk page shows multiple attempts of probable self-promotion since the beginning of the year. Raihanul shezan a future was deleted once and Raihanul shezan was deleted thrice. Raihanul shezan a future also contributed an Articles for Creation draft at Draft:Raihanul Shezan and uploaded an image of the same person. It is evident that the editor is only here to promote this person and has ignored several requests to stop. MJ94 (talk) 08:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Uherský Brod shooting

Hello,

I have recently added "background section" to article on Uherský Brod shooting. User talk:Rms125a@hotmail.com felt that it is speculation and synthesis and deleted much of the added content, without even first contacting me or bringing it to the talk page.

In my opinion, particularly the following was deleted for not good reason:

In the Czech Republic, pentagenarian and sextagenarian men are the group with the highest suicide rate, as well as the one that commits the largest murderous acts. Many of these men became economically unsuccessful after the Velvet revolution: both murderers in Frenštát and Brod were long-term unemployed, blamed society for their failures and had frequent conflicts with their neighbors.

Media further pointed out that in the atheist Czech society, pubs and restaurants play a very important societal function. Targeting a restaurant in the Czech Republic thus has the same symbolism as does targeting a church in other countries.

Both information are relevant to the article (most mass murders in US are committed by teenagers, in Western Europe by 30-40 yo males), they also point to the motive (without expressly speculating about it), the symbolism is also clear. No speculation in either. In addition, all information was taken from the linked source - a weekly that deals with the shooting in articles taking over 8 pages - no synthesis was made by me.

I have some understanding for deletion of the Charlie Hebdo and Copenhagen mention, even though those were also directly taken from the linked source.

I would appreciate Administrator's intervention before this disrespectful edit of User talk:Rms125a@hotmail.com turns into edit war.

Thank you, regards Cimmerian praetor (talk) 12:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Cite error: The named reference blazek was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Motýl, Ivan (2 March 2015), "Útok na hospodu ", Týden, vol. 22, no. 10, Praha, p. 20

• This looks like a content dispute to me, and admins can't rule on those. I'd say what you need to do is discuss it on the article talk page and seek consensus, and don't re-add your desired content until you have a consensus for it. And to prevent an edit war, just don't edit war. Squinge (talk) 12:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Fine, I am willing to discuss it on the talk page and hopefully arrive at a consensus with Cimmerian praetor. Quis separabit? 13:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

69G3O

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can someone please block 69G3O (talk · contribs) asap? There's a report at AIV, but it's getting old reverting their edits in the meantime. APK whisper in my ear 14:27, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

 Done by JodyB. APK whisper in my ear 14:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

User:WaldirBot is removing all subsection headings from Portal:Current events

User:WaldirBot is removing all subsection headings from Portal:Current events

example http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Portal:Current_events/2001_January_1&diff=650100129&oldid=639019324

and here http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Portal:Current_events/2002_October_23&diff=650105285&oldid=639149010

has this been agreed to??? looks more like a vandal bot run amuck to me--70.190.111.213 (talk) 15:01, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I realize having these edits performed by bot may raise concerns. The run isn't fully automated, however. I'm reviewing every edit manually, and the section heading removals are only performed if I consider them (in good faith and to the best of my judgment) unnecessary overhead — for example, if each section has a single entry.

I'm happy to stop doing that simplification if there's consensus that such changes are not welcome. Btw, thanks for warning me on my talk page. --Waldir 16:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

IMO, the section headers in those should stay. --IJBall (talk) 19:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Repeated inappropriate removal of user-talk-page post

I have attempted to communicate with User:Atsme on his talk page. A third editor, A1candidate (talk · contribs), is trying to inhibit this, first by twice removing my post there & , then by hatting it, , and then removing it a 3rd time . To top it off, a 3RR warning on my talk page, . I fail to see why another editor should be interfering in my attempt to communicate with someone else, and I feel the situation merits a block for A1candidate. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:19, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The way you phrased your comment was highly inflammatory, unlikely to resolve the conflict and certainly viewed by the other party as a form of harassment. You're of course free to communicate with Astme, but you should do so in a civil manner. -A1candidate 19:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the comments that Nomoskedasticity left on Atsme's talk page. While you may view the comment as unhelpful, that is not justification for removing it. —Farix (t | c) 19:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

See WP:REMOVEUNCIVIL. Derogatory comments about another contributor may be removed by any editor. -A1candidate 19:47, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The comments are hardly derogatory. Confrontational, maybe, but they are definitely not derogatory. —Farix (t | c) 19:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

They are neither uncivil nor derogatory, in fact that sort of user talk post is fairly routine. The removals are in no way supported by policy. How about an apology for an honest misunderstanding of policy, and we can get on with it. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd also suggest that A1candidate must restore the post... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:TPO, A1candidate is in violation of this by removing others' comments without just cause. It's also somewhat worse that they decide to attempt to WP:GAME you into being blocked for WP:3RR when they shouldn't have even removed said comments in the first place. Tutelary (talk) 19:27, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

A1candidate is not in violation for removing Nomo's post on my TP. It is quite the opposite. This isn't the first time Nomoskedasticity has posted unhelpful comments on my TP. I have asked him before to please stop his disruptive behavior and to stay off my TP. I respectfully request that this issue be dismissed. I apologize for any inconvenience it may have caused. Atsme☯ 19:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

That diff does not contain a request that I not post on your talk page... I don't recall that you have requested this. If it's true, then a simple reminder from you would suffice. We still can't have third editors removing posts from talk pages not their own. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, now you know, as since A1candidate apparently knew, it's time to let it go. Besides, it's pointless to edit war on another user's talk page because with the orange bar it's not like they won't know someone posted. NE Ent 20:23, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Nomoskedasticity, don't post to User talk:Atsme. A1, let Atsme remove the posts themselves. Are we done now? — Ched :  ?  20:24, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Ched. Atsme☯ 21:47, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

IP using sexual images for vandalism on own talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See . I reverted his edit, please revoke talk page access (and extend block if necessary). --ToonLucas22 (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I've revoked talk page access. Nakon 20:22, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

If it was any use, I wouldn't have let that character out after a mere three days. But never mind, they're probably already elsewhere. Bishonen | talk 20:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC).

Yeah, it's a wireless IP, so all they'll have a new address in no time. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 21:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Kannada123 not heeding warnings

Please see User talk:Kannada123. This user seems to have a longstanding pattern of problematic edits (as evidenced by roughly 50 warnings on their User talk page), seldom provides edit summaries, seldom participates in Talk page discussions, and never responds to warnings posted on their Talk page. I think perhaps something should be done to get their attention. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there have been problems with my 'edits' with most being "Disambiguation link notification", non-addition of "Non-free rationales" for album covers, posters etc. just like anybody else who has been contributing for over a period of 1.5 years. But, every single issue has been rectified by me. I provide edit summaries whenever it's required. — Kannada123 (talk) 04:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Closed merge discussion

After one month, and 1,887 page views in the past 30 days, I closed the proposed merger discussion on Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago User:Veggies and I disagree on whether or not my closing the discussion was proper. I based my decision on Misplaced Pages:Merge, which states that discussion can be closed after a week. I gave it a month. The result of the discussion was a "draw", with only two !votes. Please advise me on whether or not I followed policy, and please let User:Veggies know what your determination is. Thanks!Juneau Mike (talk) 01:06, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Canvassing and hounding with allegations of bad faith on GMO

David Tornheim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

short story

OK, I have a stalker, userlinks above, who is accusing me of bad faith actions and COI across multiple Talk pages, so the issues are WP:HOUND, and WP:AGF/WP:NPA. He is also WP:CANVASSING about the "biased POV of the GMO articles". On his userpage he makes it clear he is a community activist, and it appears to me he is using such tactics here in WP and is violating WP:SOAPBOX via WP:ADVOCACY.

At this point I am seeking a 24 block for canvassing, and a strong warning for this inexperienced editor to stop these behaviors and to focus on content, not contributors. If David persists after a formal warning, I will seek a topic ban. I believe he is well-intentioned but does not understand WP. He appears to be WP:NOTHERE but I am not bringing that case, at this time.

longer story

WP:Canvassing

David entered the GMO topic by canvassing 4 editors on their Talk pages.

• 08:51, 13 February 2015 dif
• 08:54, 13 February 2015 dif
• 09:02, 13 February 2015 dif
• 09:08, 13 February 2015 dif

These messages are identical, are on pages of dissenters from the consensus on the GMO articles, and are decidedly not neutral, citing a "a pattern of corporate manipulation" and other bad behavior by "small group of watcher with a particular slant on the subject" and discussing the "bogus" and "blatant falsehood" of the scientific consensus statement. (Note: the scientific consensus is that currently marketed food from GM crops is as safe to eat, as food from conventional organisms. That was subject to an RfC that upheld the content with the consensus statement and its sourcing. That statement in the GMO articles really bothers anti-GMO activists. Continual problem with drive by editors, and some editors who are active here.)

I provided David formal warning of canvassing here. I also made a note on the Genetically modified food controversies Talk page and added a recruiting template to the article.

• After the canvassing warning, in this discussion on another user's Talk page, David used his concerns about my removing a personal attack (see below) to again vent his general concerns with the POV/COI going on at the GMO suite and my behavior. (again, with an editor he thought would be sympathetic)

David's canvassing led directly to a posting on Jimbo's talk page by one of the canvassers. Thread is here, which grew directly out of David's canvassing of the OP, one of those already linked above.

• David contributed this to the discussion there, discussing "COI problems that are happening with pharmaceuticals, and are now an equally big problem with GMO articles which lack of NPOV." This is just a continuation of the community activist campaigning and canvassing.

• And then, David left a message on another editor's Talk page tonight that I consider to be canvassing, that started with said "Anyone who tries to balance any of the GMO articles is immediately reverted and is often threatened like this." and discussed more below), and is what prompts me to call for a 24 block for canvassing.

• WP:NPA / WP:TPG

• David has now twice added content to article Talk pages, to "introduce" new users, with POV and attacking messages about contributors, not content:

first with this beauty, which i removed per NPA and provided David with a warning on this Talk page

and just now, this, which was also removed per NPA by another editor.

• Most recently, a new editor came to the articles wanting to add UNDUE content with messed up referencing to the Genetically modified organism article, which i reverted. I provided that user with a Welcome template, and I added another note informing the editor in a neutral way, about how the suite of articles is set up and explained how to add a reference. That editor used what I taught him to edit war the content back in (with proper reference formatting), without talking back at all, so I provided an edit war warning. (am not going to do all the editing diffs in this part. they are here if anybody wants to see them)

Today, David followed my note and warning with two messages on that editor's page. This first started with "Don't let these threats scare you off. Anyone who tries to balance any of the GMO articles is immediately reverted and is often threatened like this." Which is a continuation of WP:CANVASSING and violates NPA... and is also bad advice, because the editor was edit warring. David then wrote a message to me on that editor's page, critiquing my introductory note. This is just hounding, and this, along with the canvassing, is what prompted this posting.

• In the two or three weeks since all this started, David has engaged in only two real discussions about content.

• one about "substantial equivalence" which is here: Talk:Genetically_modified_food_controversies#Substantial_Equivalence
• the other, trying to add content about a 14 year old primary source discussing cellular engineering (not genetic engineering) to the genetic engineering article. Discussion is here.

In both cases, he was wrong about the topic (law/regulation in one and science in the other), and after he actually read the sources or had them explained to him, he acknowledged he was wrong. All this agita appears to be based on a very strongly held position that "GMOs are bad". He does not appear to be WP:COMPETENT in the subject matter.

• The behavior is all, classic WP:ADVOCACY. I deal with a lot of editors like this in the GMO suite and do not bring them here or create drama.

I am bringing this case, because David is different. With him, there is a new stalking element and really wrong focus on motivations and on contributors (namely me) not content, that is, to me, really icky, and a set of "community organizing" activities that is very unwikipedian.

• I ask that, if this turns into an examination of my behavior, that this be done in a separate thread. This thread is focused on David's behavior demonstrated above, which is out of line.

• Anyway, as I mentioned above, I am seeking a 24 block for canvassing and a warning for David to stop these behaviors. I would like the warning to include instruction to discuss content, not contributors.

Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC) (added a bit per note below Jytdog (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC))

Have you first tried to engage with David in a meaningful discussion? If so, why did initial attempts to solve the issue fail? I'm asking this only because I can't make any clear inferences about that from your long post, so it may be a good idea for you to state that clearly. -A1candidate 01:46, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

yes, as i did describe above. added some Jytdog (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I see lots of accusations thrown against David Tornheim for allegedly stalking you, and that may indeed be occurring, but if you don't want him to come to your talkpage, you may wish to tell him to stay away from your talkpage (in clear language) and see if that works. You said that you apologized to him, but I don't consider that a good way to deal with unwanted attention. -A1candidate 02:14, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

thanks for your advice but you are distracting from the point. I have not disinvited him from my Talk page, as that is the first place for him to concerns about my behavior. Per WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE, this board is next, as I have told him.

But this is about david's behavior. I believe the canvassing is sanctionable and the discussions of content, not contributor, need a warning. Jytdog (talk) 02:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:Harassment by Bfpage

I first addressed Bfpage about WP:Harassment at Bfpage's talk page. Bfpage then moved my additional comments to User talk:Bfpage/Following me around, and replied there each time I made a new reply at Bfpage's talk page. Eventually, I took the matter to Jytdog for advice, and Jytdog also saw WP:Harassment on Bfpage's part. Like I stated on Jytdog's talk page (User talk:Jytdog/Archive 10#Advice on potential WP:Hounding behavior) regarding my concerns about Bfpage, particularly stalking: "To me, was making sure that there is potential for us to interact when that I would rather that we do not interact. I can and do collaborate on Misplaced Pages, but got off to a rocky start and it can take time before I am willing to work with an editor that I feel very irritated by and/or had significant disputes with. I therefore wished to remove myself from ...other than occasionally editing the Sexism article. And seemed to want to directly in my orbit. I don't seek to work with editors that are causing me annoyance. And instead of occasionally interacting with , pretty much declared that I would likely be interacting with on a daily or weekly basis." After that, Bfpage seemed to back off, but, like I noted in a section on my talk page, Bfpage is still keeping tabs on me and awarded a barnstar to an editor (Lucentcalendar) who made ill-advised comments about me, ill-advised comments that caused NinjaRobotPirate, who is aware of the WP:Harassment I often receive, to attempt to see me in a better mood. A day after Bfpage's barnstar award, I warned Bfpage about stalking me again, on March 2. Bfpage's response was to "self-ban in good faith." I never asked for a self-ban; I asserted that the obvious stalking should stop. Bfpage continues to stalk me, and the excuse for that stalking now is to mark down "where not to edit." Any time an editor, such as this harassing IP, has something negative to state about me, Bfpage shows up to award that editor a barnstar; besides awarding Lucentcalendar a barnstar, Bfpage awarded the harassing IP a barnstar and DangerousJXD (one of my other harassers) a barnstar, seen here, after laughing at DangerousJXD's user page commentary about hating me.

Normally, I ignore my harassers unless I "have to" interact with them. And if DangerousJXD wants to state that he hates me on his user page, or any of the other things he's stated about me on his user page, then I don't think he should be forced to remove it. But seeing users obsess over me, as these users do, is often where I draw the line, as I did in a different notable WP:Hounding case focusing on me. I ask that one or more WP:Administrators advise Bfpage to stop tracking my edits, or to at least stop publicly tracking my edits, to perhaps un-watch my user page/talk page, and to stop speaking of me and/or ambiguously referring to me on Misplaced Pages unless necessary. If DangerousJXD keeps obsessing over me, I will start a WP:ANI thread in that case as well. Other than their obsessions with me, and any poor editing that they may engage in, I am not interested in these editors. Their obsessions regarding me, and any poor editing that they may engage in, is the only reason that I have their user pages/talk pages on my WP:Watchlist. I have enough issues to worry about at this site, and in my personal life, than constant badgering and/or belittlement from these editors. Flyer22 (talk) 04:00, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Please leave me alone. –DangerousJXD (talk) 04:31, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

DangerousJXD, that goes the other way around, which is the exact reason for this thread. Should I point out all of your silly edits regarding me, the way that I pointed to them near the end of this section? If not, then do stop obsessing over me. And do stop acting like I am the one who has been bothering you. Never do I mention you, except for when it is to point out your obsession with me. I barely even think of you, yet your user page is laced with edits showing just how much you think of me. Get a clue: I am not interested in you. Flyer22 (talk) 04:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Just stop. I never did anything to you. I was done with you with my closing notes note. Leave me alone. I have left you alone, can you please do the same? I put you in the past yet you keep coming back. Can you please just be happy or something? Come to an agreement? (That last part sounded stupid) —DangerousJXD (talk) 04:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Anyone interested in the truth about who "keeps coming back," and who keeps referring to the other, as far you and I are concerned can look at the diff-link I provided in my "04:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)" post above. They can also look at this Editor Interaction Analyzer tool. And while you removing mention of me from your user page is a start, what I seek is that you completely stop focusing on me, including awarding anyone a barnstar because you like how they supposedly told me off. Flyer22 (talk) 05:22, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Playing the victim does not suit you in light of evidence to the contrary. Flyer22 (talk) 05:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Recently, there's been some talk about how to retain female editors. If I took all the abuse and harassment that Flyer22 does, I'd probably have left a long time ago. I occasionally edit feminist, gender, and sexuality articles, and nobody has ever – not even once – called me an activist, a crusader, or identified me as part of some feminist cabal. And yet Flyer22, who has been vocal about not self-identifying as a feminist, receives constant abuse directed toward her. I don't know. I think this is exactly the situation that admins should be focusing on if they want to retain female editors. Maybe if I called myself NinjaFairyPrincess people would start "I hate NinjaFairyPrincess" threads, follow me around, fix my edits, and rewrite my articles to be more neutral. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:05, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Requesting an intervention

A frequent editor of Louisiana articles, Futurewiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), seems to struggle endlessly. The user has been cautioned again and again, and was taken to ANI twice under their previous username Dragonrap2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (see sockpuppet investigation). There doesn't seem to be any learning curve, and editors spend a lot of time cleaning up after this editor.

Difs:

• - no edit summary, reason or source, and has been cautioned to stop adding "Hamlet" to infobox names.
• - added a photo gallery to an infobox.
• - added "hamlet" to its official name after being cautioned to stop doing this.
• - random unsourced content.
• - added a small table. While editing as User:Dragonrap2, there were many cautions against this and it went to ANI.
• - changed genre of a musician without adding a source or edit summary. Another editor reverted and cautioned them on their talk page to stop doing this. No matter, Futurewiki just kept on doing it.

Editor after editor has tried to assist, or warned this user about unconstructive edits. Thank you for any assistance you may offer. Magnolia677 (talk) 05:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)