Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nscheffey (talk | contribs) at 21:34, 22 July 2006 (→Response to User:JzG: ste4ks continued behavior). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

General Comments

This user is unimaginably annoying and frustrating to even think about. I really don't want to post here. They are combative, unable to fathom that other entities have their own minds and viewpoints, and highly emotionally unstable. Misplaced Pages is WP:NOT a place to get therapy for oppositional defiant disorder. --mboverload@ 00:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I would very much like to see a radical change in her behavior. I wish the best for everyone. I do have considerable doubt if this is even possible, however. A small part of my doubt comes from her response itself (the rest comes from her editing of articles). In her response she completely fails to see that she has a problem. Instead, she places the blame on everyone else. She seems to be in complete denial. This may simply be her personality. I cannot recall seeing anyone act like her before. This is not an attack or a diagnosis but I have wondered if she has some underlying personality disorder such as OCPD ]. If this is the case then she may be able to alter her behavior for a short period of time now but then revert back after this process is over. I do not think this action should be decided by positive behavior changes either during this process or since she first learned that it was being prepared. If this is her core personality, then WP may not be the best place for her talents.--Who123 18:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The summary of Ste4k's actions, while generally quite fair, does omit the fact that certain users have been rather provocative towards Ste4k as well. Like I said earlier , for example, Andrew Parodi seemed to have a knack for knowing how to irritate Ste4k. But that being said, there are two rules for functioning smoothly in civilization: do not offend, and do not be easily offended. Unfortunately, Ste4k seems to be extremely quick to take offense, and seems to take the worst interpretation of any ambiguities in others' statements, rather than asking for clarification or assuming good faith. Kickaha Ota 01:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not think her behavior should be excused because of other's behavior. Her behavior is too widespread with too many different people. I have seen two types of behavior. One is described in the article. The other is to use flattery to manipulate people.--Who123 18:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me also say that I strongly object to the reference to WP:DICK in "Applicable policies and guidelines". First of all, it's neither a policy nor a guideline, as it very clearly says. Second, it implies that Ste4k's being intentionally provocative, and I'm not convinced that that's the case -- I think it may just be in Ste4k's nature to read the worst possible motive into people's written words and respond accordingly. Kickaha Ota 01:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good points about the policy and guideline thing. However see the below section. Instead of just reverting and explaining why her talk page had to be unreadable to other editors (this was never referenced or explained), she went on a drama-rampage instead of just reverting it. It had an easy solution, but she had to be a WP:DICK --mboverload@ 01:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• "Don't be a dick" is the fundamental rule of all social spaces.

In some respects, WP:DICK is the most important rule we have. -Will Beback 03:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It may not be official policy and may not be PC but it certainly applies here, IMHO--Who123 18:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Like most of you, I have no personal problem with Ste4k, although I endorse the basis here. The best outcome for Ste4k would be for her to not take any of this as a personal attack. It is not, but she certainly won't move beyond this RfC so long as she thinks it is (and she seems to). I think right editing at Misplaced Pages is using common sense before applying policy. "Will the content I'm adding help Misplaced Pages's readers?", "Will the content I'm removing help Misplaced Pages's readers?", "Why?", "What for?". Don't stop at Policy. Question. Policy means nothing without asking these questions. More accurately, Policy means nothing but furthering an alienating POV without asking these questions, which then means nothing. —Antireconciler ◊ talk 04:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I do have a question. Why does Ste4k act the way she does? Where does and where has Ste4k lived (in general)? The reason I ask this is that I do not understand her behaviour. Is she from a country, a city, or a society where her behaviour is the norm?--Who123 18:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments on Ste4k's Response

Ste4k doesn't have any claim about "distruptive edits to the talk page". She could have easily reverted and explained why instead of making it into a drama-thon. --mboverload@ 01:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Note on authorship

In her response Ste4k repeatedly addresses me directly as the author of this RfC. However four other editors also contributed. The edit history may be found at User:Will Beback/Sandbox. To some extent it is the expression of everyone who has signed on as a certifier. It would be wrong to view this as the perspective of only one person. -Will Beback 01:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Definitely. Her comments on the "Description" section, for example, reference several statements added by me. I agree that this RfC represents the views of all who've endorsed it. --Nscheffey 02:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. Although Will Beback should be thanked for putting much hard work into this, it should be considered to come from all those who endorsed it.--Who123 20:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this RfC formatted appropriately?

The RfC instructions seem to say that the people who certify an RfC must have tried to resolve the same dispute, not multiple disputes involving the same user. This RfC involves a number of distinct grievances, and it's not clear which dispute(s) each certifier is claiming involvement with. Kickaha Ota 02:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It's more about the patern of behaviour and attitude, with multiple large examples of evidence. I think that's what it is anyway. --mboverload@ 02:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Should I annotate my endorsement with reference to my specific interaction? --MichaelZimmer (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that since this is about her overall behavior it is appropriate to cite multiple examples of same. --Nscheffey 02:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the RfC is over Ste4k's behavior across the project. -Will Beback 03:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Gender

I finally got a chance to read this. The RfC says that Ste4k is a male, Rross, on the basis of the two names sharing an IP address, Rross's pattern of edits on Usenet, the reverts on Curse and other unspecified evidence. Ste4k claims this is her husband or teenage son. This would seem a reasonable explanation. Is there any evidence to contradict her explanation? If so, it should be provided. The RfC implies that Ste4k's identity as a male is well-established. JChap (talk • contribs) 02:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't say that Ste4k is a male. It states that Rrock is referred to as a male and has a masculine first name, and that Ste4k identifies as female. I don't think the point here is whether Ste4k is being forthright about her gender, but rather her reaction when other editors use a universal male pronoun. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 02:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I take that back. The RFC does make a claim as to Ste4k's gender:"To assume a different gender and then complain when mistaken for the actual gender is drama-queen behavior" Well, IMO the issue still should only be an editor's reaction to a good-faith usage of a universal pronoun. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 03:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

But the statement is still an accusation: either Ste4k is transgendered or is trying to perpetuate a hoax. (Or in the words of the RfC, "it seems unlikely that this is a good faith gender re-assignment. Combined with the edit warring over fraudulent material, it calls the user's good faith into question and appears to be another case of trolling.") This should either be proven or withdrawn. JChap (talk • contribs) 03:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Rrock" has a male name and uses 72.128.30.205. Ste4k identifies as a female and uses 72.128.30.205. Ste4k claims that Rrock is her husband. Even if that is all true, Ste4k has still perpetrated a fraud on Misplaced Pages, by edit warring over inappropriate material created by someone using her computer. The time difference between the Ste4k posting the info and Rrock announcing the material was 6 minutes.

As for the identity of Rrock/Ste4k, both people claim to have had 30-year careers in systems administration, both specializing in VMS. All of this adds up to a set of coincidences which exceed my credulity. On the other side, all we have is Ste4k's assertion, with no evidence. If there is any evidence to the contrary I'd be happy to review the situation. -Will Beback 03:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you about the insertion of material. As to identity, you are right that this is quite a string of coincidences (and let me emphasize that I have no way of knowing what happened) but to be fair to Ste4k, each of these is explainable. The diff on the first edit listed the IP address as the editor, not Ste4k, so it is possible that it was Rrock who made that edit. (This of course doesn't excuse/explain her subsequent edit-warring over the fraudulent material.) As for she and Rrock having 30-year careers in the same field: it is common for husband and wife to be about the same age and to work in the same field (although not necessarily in the same subspeciality). She did send me an e-mail a few days ago; her signature and her Road Runner e-mail address each contain the same female name. JChap (talk • contribs) 04:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Normally a user's real life identity would not be a concern, but Ste4k has discussed her gender, her profession, and her ailments, and antagonized other users over them. But the insertion of fraud, whether the source is herself or himself, is the most important issue, and one which she hasn't addressed. -Will Beback 05:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this could be streamlined. I agree that her over-reaction to people referring to her as "he" is evidence of trollish behavior, and that her edit war over Curse was unacceptable. Maybe we should move the over-reaction diffs to "Takes offense easily" under General problems, leave the Curse issue to the Curse section, and remove the gender section. Would this make things more straightforward? --Nscheffey 06:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I've gone ahead and made those changes. The issue is not so much the gender of either Rrock or Ste4k, but whether they are the same person. The bigger issue is still why they would add the self-sourced material to Curse, regardless of whether they are one person or two. -Will Beback 09:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The change does a good job of focussing the RfC on the hoaxing issue without unnecessarily invoking an irrelevant and potentially embarrassing matter. JChap (talk • contribs) 15:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Broken wikilinks

It appears that a lot of the wikilinks in the "Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute" (and maybe in other sections) that currently start with "http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Ste4k/Prepolicy_Discussion" need to be changed to start with "http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Ste4k/Archives_of_first_three_weeks" to reflect the moving/renaming/archiving of Ste4k's user talk page. I've fixed a few links that had to do with my own comments, but won't have time today to fix the others. Kickaha Ota 16:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing that. I think I've fixed the rest. -Will Beback 18:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Commenting in Article

I do not understand where we can and where we cannot place comments. For example, can we comment on Ste4k's response or outside views in the article itself or just here?--Who123 18:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I've seen, the norm is to avoid back-and-forth commentary on the RfC page. That sort of discussion should be kept on this page or on user talk pages. -Will Beback 19:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Is the "Response" section here for comments on Ste4k's response? If so, could it be retitled to something like: "Comments on Ste4k's Response"?--Who123 20:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that'd be fine. -Will Beback 20:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Response to User:JzG

User:JzG wrote:

• The "Curse" thing is, in my opinion, flogging a dead horse. If we're going to beat up every Wikipedian for silly things they did before they got properly involved in the project then we are going to lose some good editors. Even long-established editors have done some things they rather wish they hadn't in hindsight.

I disagree. A single addition of hoax material is a silly thing. Edit warring over it for three days, attacking other editors for removing it, and filing a mediation request to seeks its inclusion goes way beyond a little prank. Nor is it the distant past. Even so, Ste4k could put it behind her if she'd acknowledge it as a mistake. Instead, she has refused to comment on it here, and just last week complained about how poorly she was treated while trying to push the material intended to further another online dispute. She apparently does not recognize any problem with her behavior in that matter. -Will Beback 20:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

User:JzG wrote:

• The "Course in Miracles" business was an example of acting in good faith with a relatively low level of experience.

To me, exhibiting good faith requires being open and honest. After first trying to speady delete every ACIM-related article, and then nominating every one for AfD she said:

• My interest is not to delete all ACIM related articles.

If deleting the articles was not her intent, then why did she try to get them deleted twice? It is hard to see the good faith in someone who does one thing, then claims not to have done it. -Will Beback 21:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I still wonder if she had/has some hidden agenda or motive for wanting to delete the ACIM articles? Why would a user who supposedly knew nothing about the subject want to do that?--Who123 21:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit worried about this "it looks likes she's changed" argument, primarily because there is no evidence of it. Furthermore, her discussions in regards to this RfC display many of the original problems. For example, in the discussion on her talk page with Will Beback regarding her edit war to add a hoax to Misplaced Pages she repeatedly skirts the question, flat out refusing to provide any justification or explanation for her actions. Towards the end she makes a vague threat that due to his "actions today" she will be contacting an "intermediary" and that he will "be advised." This is similar to comments made about me in the Response section of the RfC, namely "because there are other actions pending about that user, I will say no more about it at this time." I have no idea to what she could be referring. She has never explained her refusal to discuss the Greek Statue merge with me, nor her numerous allegations that I "stalked" her. In fact, in her recent conversation with Martinp23 she again asserts that I'm a "stalker", claiming that I had "been advised" to stop stalking her, and even suggests that by calling for a third opinion I was using Martin to "game the system"! This all shows no remorse or even comprehension that this type of behavior is hostile and not conducive to progress. Clearly, she is making no effort to change the disputed behavior. --Nscheffey 21:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)