Talk:Views of Lyndon LaRouche and the LaRouche movement

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Views on Homosexuality and Homophobia

I would like to start expanding this section. It is abundantly clear from a number of LaRouche's comments and articles that he views homosexuals as evil. I am wondering if it would be appropriate to cite this website http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.AreHomosexualsASecurityRisk since it does contain an original copy of the article in which the comments were made. The site is highly critical of the movement and the man himself, and I just want to make sure that it would not be considered biased to cite from an article which is hosted on a site which clearly has an ideological position against the group? Thesassypenguin (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Blogs or websites that are run anonymously are not suitable sources. Also, Misplaced Pages should not make statements characterizing living persons or their views as such-and-such -- instead, under Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, it should quote reliable sources and let them make such claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.188.150.23 (talk) 05:13, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The site doesn't so much make the claim that LaRouche is anti-gay, rather hosts an article he wrote in which he openly states that Homosexuals are morally defective, untrustworthy, and proud of their "sexual deviation" that part is definitely not anonymous nor is it a statement characterizing LaRouche but his actual words on the subject. I think it may be best to see if I can locate a version of the article hosted elsewhere or a scholarly article outlining his views. Also its interesting that you would respond anonymously to this post and claim that LaRouche Planet is run anonymously when it is actually run by former members of the LaRouche movement who have left and chosen to speak out about the subject using their real names. http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.Honorrollofsanity Cheers.

Thesassypenguin (talk) 15:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

An anonymous website/blog with a COI. "Real names" don't add anything to its credibility. This is no reliable source for a BLP. Waalkes (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that this page can be properly considered a biography of a living person. However in light of the conflict of interest POV wise, I'll be looking for a copy of the aforementioned article which is simply hosted on the website, elsewhere, either a journal or another site and using that as a source instead. Keep in mind that I am not trying to cite the views of an anonymous commentator speaking on behalf of the LaRouche Planet website but rather the views that Lyndon LaRouche himself has published concerning gays and lesbians. Thesassypenguin (talk) 21:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd also like to get a few other opinions about this matter from users who aren't editing anonymously, or potentially using a sock account due to being banned permanently (Waalkes, Suspected Sock), before feeling that a consensus has been reached on the subject. Thesassypenguin (talk) 21:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Found a copy of the aforementioned article here http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1987/eirv14n19-19870508/eirv14n19-19870508_038-british_press_asks_are_homosexua-lar.pdf please note that it is the exact same text as used by the LaRouche Planet website. The site is LaRouche's own publication Executive Intelligence Review. Hope this satisfies anyone concerned about POV, COI, or wishing to bring up other objections to mentioning LaRouche's own Anti-LGBT homophobic statements and views. I'll get to expanding the Homosexuality subsection of Minority Politics later on this week. I would be interested to hear people's take on the article prior to then. Thesassypenguin (talk) 23:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree that the sources you linked to can be used to add information with BLP implications to this article. Also, please don't accuse other editors of being socks. That is not helpful to a productive discussion. Cla68 (talk) 00:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Sassy, it may be that this topic (LGBT) is of particular interest to you, but I see no evidence that it plays a major role in LaRouche's belief structure or that it deserves more space in this article than it already gets. To be persuaded, I would need to see some reliable sources that say so (See WP:RS for clarification.) Also, when complaining about editors who are editing anonymously, you would do well to remember that you are also editing anonymously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.126.46.157 (talk) 01:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Would this ample selection of sources be appropriate?Thesassypenguin (talk) 14:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, I suggest expanding the one sentence which discusses LaRouche views on Homosexuality to a short paragraph. Stances on LGBT issues are often discussed when they relate to political figures or ideological movements. Cla68 can you please explain why citing someone's own writing is an inappropriate way of outlining their views? I did not make an original accusation about puppetry, I pointed out a concern raised by other editors surrounding this article, and editor. I agree with Waalkes sock or not that the LaRouche Planet website is not a neutral POV source, the article is LaRouche's writing published by EIR and available on his publication's website. The complaint about anonymity arose around the wiki style website LaRouche Planet where I originally found the article. I was not meaning to complain about anonymity by pointing out that its hypocritical to do so anonymously, and was hoping to hear feedback from verifiable members of the Misplaced Pages community when I mentioned it a second time.Thesassypenguin (talk) 03:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It is not up to Misplaced Pages to show that a person is "evil" - it is up to us to present material relevant to his biography without reaching undue weight on any given issue. That noted, "no wiki is ever a reliable source" for any claims at all in any article - BLP or not. See WP:RS if you would like to read more about whuy a wiki is never usable. Collect (talk) 13:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree a wiki is not a reliable primary source of information, published articles and journals however are would you not agree? The list of sources that has previously been compiled about this issue, and the numerous publications in which the comments LaRouche has made can be found are not wiki content they are published material. Executive Intelligence Review is not a wiki style site, nor are the other sources mentioned on the list, which while organized on a Misplaced Pages page are from primary and secondary sources NOT FROM A WIKI, they are published work or transcripts of proceedings. It is not my intent to show that LaRouche or the movement is "evil" (your word not mine), I would simply like to expand the single sentence relating to Homosexuality to a brief paragraph outlining how and why LaRouche has been perceived as Homophobic in his positions the single sentence is vague, and poorly sourced in my opinion, and there are a large number of sources which demonstrate far more clearly what is being vaguely implied in the current article.Thesassypenguin (talk) 20:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Most of the secondary sources on your list are actually about AIDS, not gays, and there is already another section about AIDS in the article which is fairly extensive. The reason primary sources should be avoided is that Misplaced Pages doesn't want you, as an editor, to decide which of LaRouche's statements ought to be included in the article. He has opinions on thousands of topics. In order to decide which ones are significant enough to go into the article, Misplaced Pages relies on secondary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.188.151.70 (talk) 01:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

His position on LGBT issues may not be central to the article or LaRouche's belief structure, but I agree that the current paragraph is needlessly vague (seen by whom? what comments?) and should be expanded. It's not informative to say certain comments were seen as anti-gay with no way for the reader to determine the validity or severity of that assertion. As it stands, one cannot ascertain whether these statements could be charitably understood as misinterpretations. A little bit more context would be useful, specially as the sources cited are both in print (and so less readily available). I understand the issue with primary sources, but if that's the case then better secondary sources should be found. --140.247.187.150 (talk) 07:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. However, I did some internet searches and had trouble finding good material. There are a lot of articles by critics in not-so-good sources that simply say "he's homophobic" and let it go at that. In the better sources, books and established newspapers, they say that the LaRouche AIDS initiative was considered homophobic. I think that is problematic, because the group puts forward a rationale for the initiative that is not couched in homophobic language. I don't think we should speculate about motives. Now, I did find an online version of the LA Times article which includes a use of homophobic language, so I'll add that to the article. Joe Bodacious (talk) 21:28, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources?

Footnote #164 cites the following sources: "Chronology of Labor Committee Attacks, issued by New York Committee to Stop Terrorist Attacks, 1973; contemporary articles and photographs in the Daily World, the Militant, Workers Power, the Fifth Estate, the Boston Phoenix, and the Drummer; "An Introduction to NCLC: "The Word is Beware", Liberation New Service, #599, March 23, 1974; Charles M. Young, "Mind Control, Political Violence & Sexual Warfare: Inside the NCLC", Crawdaddy, June 1976, p. 48–56; TIP, 1976, NCLC: Brownshirts of the Seventies, Arlington, VA: Terrorist Information Project (TIP). For many of these I can find no information at all online. I doubt that any of them would meet the standards of WP:RS. Does anyone have information on these sources that they would care to add? Joe Bodacious (talk) 00:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Fursov translation

Since there continues to be quarreling over the Fursov translation, I'll provide a link to the discussion at RefDesk. People should resist the temptation to "spin" what was said there: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2014_January_10#Russian_translation Joe Bodacious (talk) 04:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Note that Reference Desk editor Lüboslóv Yęzýkin said "I'm not sure that literal translation will do better." Binksternet (talk) 18:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Let us accept that it is RS as you insisted before. The correct translation is 180 degrees away from your initial translation. If it was RS before, it is still RS with the actual correct translation. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:37, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

It was you who introduced the 180 degree mixup of "not the quality but the quantity" versus "not the quantity, but the quality." Also, I have never questioned whether Fursov is a reliable source. You were confused then and you are still confused now. Binksternet (talk) 18:57, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

No -- the claim about LaRouche specifically being "insignificant" per edits , , etc. and etc. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

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