Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kuban kazak (talk | contribs) at 16:31, 8 August 2006 (→Protected). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Choice of regions and names

I am worried that non-UA speaking readers will have a difficulty navigating through the table. While those looking for Bukovina will always click on Bukovyna, someone looking for Right-bank Ukraine is unlikely to know to click on Pravoberezhna link. Any ideas on how to resolve this for each case? Words like Volhynia and Galicia (again how likely to associate with Halychyna for an en-speaker) exist while they may have multiple meanings. Ideas and proposed solutions are welcome. --Irpen 04:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have purged loads of Russian lands that are not Ukrainian (or never were). I do not see actually much use of the template. For instance one can make Historical areas of the Russian Empire and that will give quite a lot of people ingulfed in edit wars. I propose a TfD. --Kuban Cossack 14:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This is going to be a hot discussion. I suggest for a time being to not add the template to any more articles until Krys and Kazak figure this out. I would have helped too, but, for now, I am not sure what to do as I expressed in my earlier post. I will follow their discussion.

On a side note, KPbIC, seize stalking Kuban kazak. This is bordeline to harassment if not the harassment already. --Irpen 18:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I am not a big fan of such "historical regions" templates. But, such templates do exist, even at the worse scale, as for example Template:Romanian historical regions, which specifically lists Romanian regions which are currently outside of Romania. If so, then presenting similar information for Ukrainians would not bring any additional harm.

Kuban kazak, please note that the listed regions are not "historical regions of Ukraine", but "historical Ukrainian regions", that is the regions historically populated by Ukrainians.

Irpen, I'm following recently changed Ukraine-related articles, and Kuban has happened to be one of the editors. He does as well contribute to other topics (a recent mediation on Moscow metro is one of the examples), which I have no interest in. It is not a personality of Kuban kazak that I'm following, but Ukrainian articles that I'm interested in, and have some knowledge to contribute. --KPbIC 19:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Kuban is not a Ukrainian region, historically or not. At least, care to discuss. I also see no reason to load the En-L reader with unfamiliar words, since the English words exist. If you want to add Ukrainian-based words to EN-lang, be it radhosp or Karpats'ka Rus', do it in the books you write.

And don't lie that you happen to notice Kuban's edits as you were watching the article's anyway. For insance, you came to troll to Maladzechna purely through stalking and nothing else. --Irpen 19:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

See 1897 Russian Empire census data for Kuban':

See Talk:Oleksander Koshetz and Talk:Zaporozhian Host for explanation...btw a census was based on LINGUSTIC principles rather than national ones. That is a big difference. --Kuban Cossack 19:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

And this template is based on LINGUSTIC principles as well. So, what's the problem? --KPbIC 19:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well in that case it would need to include USA and Canada. As for our dialect, not a single authentic 18th century chronicle which we have preserved mentions the word Ukraine. Also I like the fact of having Kursk and Starodub seriously howabout I make a template historical Russian regions and add Novorossiya, Malorossiya, Tavriya, Donbass to it? Or of course that would mean I would have to put all of the areas part of the Russian Empire: Volyn, Podolia, Privisla... I would think that that is rather chauvinistic...yet you certainly see no problem with doing the opposite. Double standards? --Kuban Cossack 20:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, if you have anything new to say about Maładečna, do so on the talk page. How did you find out about a small Belarusian town, Maładečna? --KPbIC 19:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I said everything I have to say about Maldzechna at its discussion page and will say more there. Here, I am talking about stalking other editors and your counter-question implies your admitting to stalking. I can answer your question still as I don't stalk anyone. I saw an anouncement at RU-portal posted on May 14, 2005 shortly before midnight GMT and posted my first entry seven hours after that. You, OTOH, where there less than an hour after Kazak, reverting him at 22:16 before the issue sparked any discussion or announcements. Same applies to your appearance at this newly created page (immediately after it popped up in KK's contributions list).

Lie. The annoncement on the Russian was posted after your have became involved into Maładečna. --KPbIC 22:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

What lie? Your talk is on my watchlist and there is nothing wrong with that. I commented to the discussion at your talk that was ongoing and I did not get to the article by stalking on anyone's edits. My original statement was that you stalk people here stands and you cannot deny it. Your attempting to turn the table here won't fly. --Irpen

Your statement that "I saw an announcement at RU-portal ... and posted my first entry ... after that" is incorrect. Your first entry on the subject was before the announcement, as the links I provided above indicates. Now, you say that my talk page is on your watch list. And why is that on your watch list? Neither yours nor Kuban's talk pages are on my watch list. Then who should accuse whom of stalking? And before, accusing me of stalking, at least, please read what is stalking and what is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KPbIC (talk • contribs)

The reason why talk pages of many people are in my watchlist is explained clearly on the top of my own talk page. My first entry at your page was prompted by the previous discussion already there that I noticed. My first entry at the article's page and its talk followed the announcement as I said earlier. In both cases, I did not stalk you and your accusations are simply a disgusting attempt to turn tables here.

I don't care about you calling me names, even in the edit summaries, where they will stay forever, but as fas as stalking is conserned, you are welcome to do it after me if this satirfies your curiousity. By stalking others you are expanding on your reputation and creating a bad climate all around. --Irpen 00:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

And now I see you making edits to unrelated articles prompted by my contibutions. Personally, I welcome the scrutiny of my edits, especially by the detractors. So, be my guest. However, there are reasons why stalking is considered harassment and is widely frown upon. --Irpen 21:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, do you have anything to say on "Ukrainian historical regions"? Don't abuse this talk page. "Be my guest", "don't be my guest".. When would you finally realize that this is a voluntary-driven public project? --KPbIC 22:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I say at the talk what I see fit and I reprimanded you for stalking at the page where I encountered it. If Kazak takes it to admin boards and/or RfC it is his business. I only go to those pages when I absolutely have to and, as I don't mind being stalked, I don't care. You asked me how I got to Madzechna in rhetorical form that implied that I stalked you. I simply elaborated on your false asumption.

As for this project being driven by this or that, it is first of all driven by cooperation of editors and your singling out people to stalk and revert them is anything but that. Harrassing other editors this way only earns you more of a reputation. --Irpen 22:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I don't care about reputations and all of such stuff. I care about the project. Espacially recently, you seem to be the one who spend enormous amount of time on all kinds of discussions about personalities of editors. On this talk page you have only written one sentence in relation to "Ukrainian historical regions" moving the discussion away from the topic. And, note that you have brought the issue of stalking here trying to acquire me of such, while in fact people has been pointing out on you that you had been stalking them, and in part following their complains you were given a warning by an admin. You should really stop attacking people, and go back on contributing something, which I know, you are capable to do, and actually, to do well. --KPbIC 23:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I see building a healthy climate no less important than immediate writing. When you attack and stalk people all around WP, including in the edit summaries, I see the need to address that too. It is funny you bringing the "warnings" issue here. I am not really sure what are you talking about, but if you elaborate, you will get a response to whatever you want to know within reason of course. --Irpen 00:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, if you want to contribute toward healthy climate, then start with yourself. Avoid accusing others for reason, and no reason. Just above you made a claim that "I attack and stalk people all around WP". Did you think about contributing toward healthy climate when you wrote it? We may spend a few next days, looking under microscope on my actions of "attacking" and "stacking" and the relativity of "all around WP" remark. But you would not get an elephant out of a dog, or KPbIC. If you want a better climate, then avoid such comments as , and introductions as . First explain your arguments on the talk page, then revert. You were doing that before. Why did you stop showing positive examples? You went down over the last half year. If you want healthy climate, then start with yourself. This is the last comment I'm willing to make on this unrelated to the main discussion issue. -KPbIC 02:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Krys, when I don't explain the reverts at talk, I explain them at the edit summaries which where much more explained than the reverts like these. I would have invited you to study my edits under the microscope but I won't only because you are already doing just that, as evidenced again above. Please continue if this is what you enjoy doing. I see your habit of stalking KK as unhealthy and pointing this out is almost the only thing I can do about that. This discussion started at this page only because the conflict was prompted by your edits and reverts through coming her, as well as to other pages, through stalking KK. If I had anything to say to you in general, I would have used your talk, or policy pages if I saw the disruption severe enough to warrant that.

The template is rather controversial by itself. Than you came here and altered the names to the versions totally incomprehensible and useless for the English reader (as you've done before in another article). We will have enough trouble discussing which regions the template should include and WP:Point with UA names is a mere disruption, and unwarranted one too. --Irpen 03:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Reformat

I think we need to reformat the table to be able to accomodate several names for entries. Some of the words have no meaning for an English reader and some have little meaning and even that one is ambiguous. There is a complete clarity regarding lands like Galicia, Volhynia and Bukovina widely found in EN-lang historic books. It is also entirely clear that Left- and Right- bank Ukraine as well as the Black See have clear meanings, both in English and historically. Similarly transparent are Subcarpathia and Transcarpathia.

Some regions can be covered in full by two names according to their usage. Examples are Novorossiya (New Russia), Sloboda Ukraine (Slobozhanshchina), Dnieper Ukraine (Naddnipryanschyna), etc. However, I don't have a clear picture on what to do with some of the other names, how many we should give and how to format the table. Perhaps Krys wants to think of the table format in his spare time.

Also, the table should include the territorries inhabited by Ukrainians of the time when such consept (of a nation) existed in some form. Example: that Uliches and Tiverians lived at Danube and Dniester hardly qualifies.

More thoughts are welcome. --Irpen 23:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

DDima borrowed the template from the Ukrainian wikipedia, and I understand it lists the regions which are similar by culture and ethnicity to the regions within Ukraine. I'm satisfied with the list as it was initially. But someone wants it to be Bukovina, not Bukovyna. The second is the historical Ukrainian name of the region. There is some logic for both spellings, but then should not the same logic be applied to Hertza/Hertsa region? Similarly, defending recent census results in Ukraine, and Moldova (which is the action I actively support), should not the results of 1897 census be also recognize as they are, whether someone likes the results or nor. --KPbIC 00:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I don't know the answers to all questions here. Certainly the familiar names should be used for the English reader. What other names to use is not so easy to decide and what "regions" to include (Manitoba anyone?) is not so easy to decide. --Irpen 00:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a bad feeling that this template is not a very good idea, and the edit wars that may arise from it will far outweigh any benefits it provides in organising the information. In general, I am against any templates of the form "Historical regions of country X".

Having said that, I am puzzled by regions San River and Chełm. One is a river and the other is a city, so they are clearly not regions. Please change these names to something more reasonable. Balcer 00:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Balcer, I see your point too. I suggest to, at least, not add the template to any more articles for now until we get at least some progress with its format and inclusivity. Category:Ukrainian historical regions and Regions of Ukraine article are places where it might be easier to resolve this. --Irpen 00:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The template from Ukrainian wiki that has just been linked would translate as Template:Ethnocultural Regions of Ukraine or Template:Ukrainian Ethnocultural Regions. Why are we not using this title here? It seems a much more reasonable option, though it still would not avoid all potential problems.

Anyway, the biggest source of conflicts that I can see is the inclusion in this template of regions that today lie outside the borders of Ukraine. Obviously, such an inclusion would open an endless can of worms. Any thoughts on this? Balcer 01:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think that this template is informative, just as Russian historical regions or Polish historical regions would be. I can accept the idea of Vistulan Country being a historical Russian region, or Suwałki Lithuanian - but I am afraid some others may not, or from the other perspective, would not accept defining Wilno, Minsk or Kiev as historical Polish regions. If this is the case, then this template would be premature, I am afraid.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Well see that is the big difference, there is nothing wrong with a template say Guberniyas of Russian Empire, which would include not the modern Polish areas, but articles that are specifically deal with the historic Russian subdivisions of say Poland or Filand or whatever. E.g Vistualan Country, Sedletsk Guberniya, Kholm Guberniya and so on. However here it is a case of neo-chauvinism when people simply group as many regions as possible to show how massive historically the land is. Ukraine never owned Kursk or Kuban. --Kuban Cossack 11:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Renaming it would be a good idea. I think that we should just not add this template to lands currently not in Ukraine, but still keep those place names in the template, so as to not create any more conflicts. —dima 01:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the concept of having such a template, as well as having it somewhat closer to the original version. The "purging" was absolutely unnecessary as we already acknowledge Ukrainian historical regions in WP. I liked that the original version listed the Ukrainian names for the region, because that is something that is worth knowing as well as the "english versions". However, I agree with Irpen that some sort of middle ground should be met for those with no familiarity with Ukraine. Bukovyna is no problem. How about something like ]?

As for crossing over current national boundaries, this is something that already is done in both Romanian and Polish articles, and so long as we are clear that creating articles on WP are not a declaration of war, everyone should just relax a little. Kuban' has been included on countless Ukrainian maps (I just received an old UPA book from eBay yesterday, and wouldn't you know it, Kuban' is included in the "ethnographic boundary"). It along with other areas that cross current national borders do not in any way represent a change in national borders. But to exclude them is not giving a complete description of the historic regions of Ukraine.--tufkaa 16:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Kuban kazak, I don't know what has got into you lately (uncivility), but please remain civil at all times. I DO NOT consider that Kuban' is Ukrainian territory. But pls see these two maps: One is published in UKRAINE and the other, a world history atlas published in USA. —dima 23:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Raw sources like original early 19th century chronicles that I can scan in next time I go to Krasnodar. Also an atlas means nothing to me, seeing The Times historical atlas (which has an identical map) which has Kievan Rus maps with rivers that have reservoirs formed from Soviet time Dams...Here is a raw source: . --Kuban Cossack 23:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Also a little side note on the maps, have a look on the uk wiki talk page and the articles that Yakudza gave, if sources like these are used, they discredit wikipedia English and Ukrainian. Moreover however have a look on the map given there ... I could not help but notice the similarities, and that is a worrying thought of just how far are people prepared to step against WP:POINT. --Kuban Cossack 01:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Kuban

AFAIK, Kuban, etc. were never territory of the Ukraine, nor Kuban Cossacks consider themself Ukrainian, nor they were considered Ukrainian by any official census or any official classification. If you agree with this, then please stop adding this regions into the template, it might be consider vandalism. If you disagree, please provide Reliable sources confirming Kuban etc to be a Historical Ukrainian Region. abakharev 23:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Alex, would you classify the results of 1897 Russian Empire census as a reliable source? While it's only one of arguments, but it's commonly a single most significant argument (as the census results are). If you agree with that, could you withdraw the statement, that the population of Kuban "was never considered Ukrainian by any official census". If not, why do you think the census results are not reliable? --KPbIC 00:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

How about the 2002 census? Is that not reliable that the people who listed themselves as Cossacks are exclussively under Russian, or the article which states Интересно, что на заключительном этапе исследования они решили добавить в список Южного региона фамилии жителей Краснодарского края, ожидая, что преобладание украинских фамилий потомков запорожских казаков, выселенных сюда Екатериной II, ощутимо сократит общерусский список. Но это дополнительное ограничение сократило список общерусских фамилий всего на 7 единиц - до 250. Из чего вытекал очевидный и не для всех приятный вывод, что Кубань населена в основном русскими людьми. А куда делись и были ли вообще здесь украинцы - большой вопрос. Ie. Ivanov, Petrov, and Sidorov are still the most common surnames in Kuban, rural and urban alike (and all of the data was collected from rural areas). Moreover the abundancy of -enkos and -chuks (or -enkovs for that matter) is not greater than say in Vladimir Oblast.--Kuban Cossack 00:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about historical Ukrainian regions.

Nonetheless, as you citation indicates, even in 2002 the inclusion of Краснодарского края into список Южного региона has affected the list by decreasing the number of общерусских фамилий by 7 surnames. That is, even nowadays, Краснодарский край is distinguised from the rest of Южный регион. --KPbIC 00:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

by 7 surnames So instead of whatever Kozlov we have a typical Ciracssian name of Magomedov, from intertribe and interhost marriages. ;) --Kuban Cossack 11:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the dilemma here does exist. There are certainly works by Ukrainian authors where Kuban is mentioned in the context of Ukrainian etnography. There are also works that deny the Ukrainianness of Kuban (without even denying the historical connection between the territory and the Cossacks from Ukraine that settled it), so such inclusion while not entirely out of whack may indeed be disputable. We really have to come up with accepted criteria. Under which ones is Manitoba excluded? This seems very complicated to me and the answers should crystallize from normal and civil discussions. --Irpen 00:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussed at length: Talk:Zaporozhian Host#NPOV and User talk:KKonstantin. --Kuban Cossack 23:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I also said earlier that we need to set some time frames here. Populating of the regions by our ancestors from how long ago should qualify? It is generally accepted that the modern concept of the nation appeared only in the 19th century. Not by coinsidence, the concept of the modern Ukrainian nation also appeared only at that time. However, the clear and straightforward connection between the Ukrainian nation and the the Cossacks of the 18th century is obvious. Gumilyov considers Cossackdom as the foundation of the modern Ukrainian nation. I think this makes sense. Mainstream scholars view Khmelnytsky and his cossacks as unquestionably Ukrainian people, while calling Ostrozhskiy (1526 - 1608) as well as his father, Ukrainians, while occasionally done by some Ukrainian scholars, is at least questionable. --Irpen 00:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

However one can also say that even though Khmelnitsky was cosidered Ukrainian, yet that happened in mid-19th century. Here is another article: which deals with that aspect: В Украине же особенно в 19 веке сложился своеобразный "Запорожский миф" существующий до сего дня и канонизированный учебниками истории, по которому в 1775 году "клятые москали по врожденной ненависти к украинцам разрушили последний светлый луч в темном царстве- Запорожскую Сечь." И все и точка. И ни слова про возрождение казачества, через несколько лет. Про его славную историю. Про то что современные кубанцы и есть те самые запорожцы. Ясно, что правда разрушает миф про "клятых москалив". Умалчивание связи между запорожцами и кубанцами позволяло, всевозможным демократам 19 века, как правило шляхтичам, сидя в теплых усадьбах рассуждать про то "что нема козакив, нема воли". Хотя стоило лишь только съездить на Кубань, и там увидеть и запорожцев и волю сколько хочешь, но для этого нужно было бросить теплую усадьбу, а этого не хотелось, тому паны демократы продолжали как в ничем небывало "нема козакив, нема воли". Сейчас о кубанцах помалкивают потому что в последнее время у нас своих "потомков запорожцев" развелось видимо невидимо которые монополизируют историческую память про Сечь и зачем им еще какие-то конкуренты. Кроме того многие современные кубанцы стоят на русских патриотических позициях, вспомнить хотя бы краснодарского губернатора Кондратенко, и говорят о необходимости восточнославянского единства. Что невероятно нервирует наших слишком "свидомых украинцев", многие из которых любят пощеголять в неких псевдоказачьих мунирах, позвякивая неизвестно за что полученными медальками. Тому и создают украинские историки мифы про окончательный разгон запорожской Сечи в 1775 году. Так спокойнее. --Kuban Cossack 00:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

• OK. I see, both versions are not vandalism. Should we try to see a compromise first or directly go to some sort of polling? I could lock the template for the time of the discussion? abakharev 00:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  In light of contemprory evidence is there a need to go through the polling, in fact I know where all of the maps originate from, the 1897 census, but remember back then all of the Kuban Cossacks would have listed their ethnicity as Russian (although not Great Russian, as even now the 2002 census recognises that Cossacks are Ruthenian people but are neither Great nor Small Russians). The census takers would have most likely compared the dialect spoken to determine (as back then there existed no separate headings for Ruthenian ethnicities, only for dialects). As our balachka does have traces of 18th century Malorussian then that would have served as the guide for the census takers. Fact is we are not Malorussians, neither were Zaporozhian Cossacks for that matter. Malorussia is Podolia, Volhynia, Galicia, Sloboda the steppes were not even settled then. Read Gogol's Bulba if anyone has doubts. And Zaporozhian Cossacks consisted of everybody, Belarusians Malorusians, even some Poles and Tatars that took up the Orthodox faith. As for 19th century, hell there is every possible roots from war-brides, interhost marriages and so on. I mean take our Cherkesska dress, or the Lezginka dance, and you will think that you are on the Caucasus mountain aul than in anything resembling Ukraine... Last but not least, map of Russian dialects .

  Here is another point about 1897 census take the northern Volhynian/west Polessian border region of Ukraine and Belarus. The maps composed of 1897 census put the area as Ukrainian, however keeping the note about dialects take the image, which shows the language spoken in the area as a dialect of ...Belarusian NOT Ukrainian.

  File:Belarusian dialect map.jpg

  .

  I think I can conclude that the 1897 census, that remains the sole piece of evidence for Ukrainian Kuban has enough irregularities to seriously question its accuracy and CREDIBILITY for ethnic determination. However the new evidence like 2002 census and the Russian gene pool investigation article that I gave paints a much clearer picture and further weakens the 1897 census, and certainly old UPA books that Tufkaa brought up...well I will remain civil on what I have to think about that. --Kuban Cossack 00:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

More background on the the population of areas outside Ukraine current national borders consisting of Ukrainian enclaves, from The Second Soviet Republic: The Ukraine After World War II (Rutgers University Press, 1964) by Yaroslav Bilinsky, p.328n81:

See Kubiyovych for a concise discussion of where Ukrainians live in the USSR. In his earlier article in Entsyclopediya ukrayinoznavstva (Encyclopedia of Ukrainian Studies, Munich: Molode Zhyttya, 1949), Vol. I, p. 164, Professor Kubiyovych gave detailed estimates on the distribution of Ukrainians in the Soviet Union as of 1930. He found, for example, that 3.4 million Ukrainians were living in a compact mass in contiguous areas of the Russisan Republic (that is, areas incorporated into the Russian SFSR that were contiguous to the Ukraine). In those areas the Ukrainians constituted about two-thirds of the total population (or, 66.0 per cent). In order of magnitude, those areas were: the Kursk and Voronezh provinces (incidentally, the area in which Krushchev had been born) contained 1.4 million Ukrainians (64.2 per cent of total population); the western part of the North Caucasus region (known as the Kuban region) with 1.3 million Ukrainians (63.8 per cent of the total); the Don region, with about 600,000 Ukrainians (76.8 per cent). Given appropriate conditions those contiguous areas may be claimed by the Ukraine as Ukrainian ethnic territories.

As Kuban Cossack pointed out, these areas did not register Ukrainian pluralities in the latest census. However, historically it seems Ukrainians did populate those areas. There is no territorial claim being made here, just an acknowledgement of what was.--tufkaa 04:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a correction to avoid a common error. Khrushchev was not a Ukrainian. For proof, see the first paragraph of this chapter of his memoirs. --Irpen 06:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that sums up the accuracy of the reference. --Kuban Cossack 11:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how the parenthetical mention of Krushchev negates the statistics mentioned. (Thank you for pointing out the common misconception, Irpen. For the sake of transparency, I didn't want to selectively edit the paragraph. I guess I could have added it afterwards.)
What happened to the million+ in Kuban'? I will quote from The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation (Yale University Press, 2002), by Andrew Wilson. First on page 152:

There was a real fear amongst Ukrainian dissidents in the 1960s and 1970s that they were losing the battle. Just as Ukrainian culture had been eradicated from territories beyind the Ukrainian SSR in the 1930s (such as the Kuban, the refuge of many Zaporozhian Cossacks in the 1790s) and eastern Poland in the late 1940s, they feared it would soon disappear in Soviet Ukraine itself.

He goes on to quote some samizdat documents about national genocide, however to further understand what he is talking about, one could look at his description of Ukrainian migration within the Russian Empire/USSR on page 117:

There was also considerable out-migration from the Ukrainian territories in the Russian Empire, but it was of a very different character. First, because it was in the opposite direction - eastwards to agricultural territories in the Kuban and North Caucasus (which Ukrainians call Malynovi Klyn or "The Painted Wedge"), to Southern Siberia (Siryi Klyn, "Grey Wedge") and even the Far East (Zelenyi Klyn, "Green Wedge"), given the popularity of the sea route from Odesa; then to the melting-pot cities in the Soviet Period. Numerically this was a larger movement than that to the New World, at its peak between the abolition of serfdom in 1861 and Krushchev's "Virgin Lands" campaign in the 1950s (which encouraged Slavic settlement in the "virgin" Kazakh steppe). The last Soviet census in 1989 recorded 6.8 million Ukrainians resident in the USSR outside Ukraine, though Ukrainian sources go as high as 12 or even 20 million.

Wilson elaborates on this eastern migration further, with his wonderfully WP-friendly objectivity, which qualifies the "type" of Ukrainians who immigrated to Kuban' and other areas:

Those leaving were not yet Ukrainians, however, but first Orthodox peasants and then Soviet settlers. The communities they helped to create were as much east Slavic or Soviet-Russian as they were Ukrainian. Those who left Ukraine brought with them dialect and folk memory, but they lacked the resources to create truly national communities. Things could have been different in the 1920s. Ukrainian Communist leaders like Mykola Skrypnyk patronised the eastern diaspora and sposored the creation of Ukrainian schools and cultural institutions in neighbouring Russian territory (the eastern parts of Slobidska Ukraine that ended up in Voronezh, Kursk, and Belgorod oblasts), in the Kuban and even in the far east. The experiment came to an end in 1932, because a successful Ukrainianisation was incompatible with the new Stalinist nationalism. Thereafter Ukrainians were extremely vulnerable to assimilation to the new Soviet-Russian culture, especially in third-party environments such as Central Asia or the Baltic Republics.

It is the schools and cultural institutions which are note-worthy to me. The purging of these organizations is the proof of their existence, and their existence served a population. From The Black Deeds of the Kremlin: A White Book, Vol. 1 "Book of Testimonies" (Basilian Press, 1953), Chapter IV "The Struggle for the Independence of Ukraine and Liquidation of Ukrainian Intellectuals", p.337:

Before his arrest Yuriy Samborsky represented the Ukrainian Soviet Government in Moscow in matters touching upon the cultural and national needs of the Ukrainian minority in the Russian SSR. Ukrainians could and did turn to him in Moscow with their problems. When the Central Executive of the All-Union Communist (Bolshevik) Party decided, on December 14, 1932, to liquidate all Ukrainian institutions in the Russian and other Soviet republics and to send Potyshev to Ukraine, Samborsky was arrested.

There was a wave of arrests at that time. All professors and their assistants at the Ukrainian University in Blahovischensk in the Far East ("Zeleny Klyn"), institute in Krasnodar, at the teacher training college in the Potawska settlement in the Kuban region and at the normal school in Bilhorod in Kursk region, were arrested. At the same time many persons connected with Ukrainian high schools and universities, publishing houses, museums and so on, founded by Mykola Skypnuk in territories settled by Ukrainians or separated from Ukraine and included in the Russian Soviet Republic, suffered the same fate.