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Archived discussions

• Archive 1: December 2002 to August 2005
• Archive 2: August 2005 to January 2006
• Archive 3: January 2006 to March 2006
• Archive 4: March 2006 to April 2006
• Archive 5: April 2006 to May 2006
• Archive 6: May 2006 to July 2006

POV or not POV

Well, I thought I would stay away from the article. I mean it is an encyclopedia afterall, not the end of the world. But if you blame me for it, then I might as well do it.

It was quite interesting to note that the reference to K.P.S. Gill's book was conveniently removed. Well here is why.

Bhindrawale, the self proclaimed 11th Guru of the Sikhs committed perhaps the greatest acts of sacrilege in the Golden Temple and holiest part within the complex: the Akal Takht, seat of the the temporal power of God. Soon, he and his death squads turned the holiest of Sikh shrines into a torture chamber and a place where kidnapped women would be brought and raped repeatedly before being brutally killed. I reproduce few extracts from the book (Chapter IV):

...The killings, the torture, and now, increasingly, rape once more defiled the sacred shrine. A large number of kidnapped women were kept captive in the Temple, to be ‘used’ when and how the ‘warriors of Khalistan’ pleased; and then to be killed in cold blood; almost without exception, these were Sikh women...

...A substantial amount of jewellery and expensive clothes belonging to Jawahar Kaur, were also recovered. If further evidence of the ‘holy warrior’s’ inclinations was needed, video copies of blue movies were also found in the house. Sukhdev Singh owned another bungalow, the Pink House at Rajpura, and a third one in the Model Town area...

...In early 1991, Madha Singh, a "Lt. General" of the Babbar Khalsa, and his associate Inderjit Singh Sakhira, raped Sarabjit Kaur and Paramjit Kaur, the daughters Harbhajan Singh Jat of Sirhali and subsequently abducted and forcibly married them. This was Madha Singh’s third ‘marriage’...

...Jaspal Singh Bhuri, a "Lt. General" of the KCF, abducted an 18 year old girl, Beant Kaur of Manochahal village in December 1990. She was kept in captivity for over four months, and was ‘used’ to satisfy the lust of various gang members. In April 1991 she was released. However, Bhuri followed her to her village and forced her to consume cyanide, because he felt she would damage his group’s reputation....

...Sukhdev Singh ‘Sukha Sipahi’, alias ‘General Labh Singh’, the then KCF Chief, had developed a relationship with a married woman, Surjit Kaur, the wife of Gurdip Singh Thekedar. In July 1988, suspecting her ‘fidelity’, he and his associates gave her a severe beating and set her house on fire. Sukhdev Singh was later killed in a police encounter. His nephew, Paramjit Singh Panjwar, and an associate, Jagjit Singh Billa, believing the woman had acted as a police informer, killed her in October 1989...

and finally...here is why the Blue Star took place:

...Bhindranwale ordered a brutal ‘execution’ within the Temple precincts itself. In April 1983, A.S. Atwal, a Deputy Inspector General of Police, came to pray at the Temple; after receiving prasad at the Harmandir Sahib, he walked out towards the marble steps near the main entrance of the Complex where he was shot dead in broad daylight, with scores of witnesses standing by...

...The killers danced the bhangra around the felled DIG, and then sauntered back into the Temple. Atwal’s body, "riddled with bullets, lay in the main entrance to the Sikhs most sacred shrine for more than two hours before the District Commissioner could persuade the Temple authorities to hand it over."...

Well there is plenty more. And the details of the sacrileges committed by the Sikh terrorists during the Operation Black Thunder are particularly interesting. There is plenty of stuff availabe on the Net.

So why do not we revert to the so called "Neutral version" by Zafarnama and include this stuff as well and plenty more on the gruesome horrors that these warriors of Sikh faith inflicted on the people of Punjab...a majority of whom were Sikhs. There is plenty of evidence. This book is one.

The end of these killers was brought by not the army, nor the police. It was brought by the brave Sikhs of Punjab themselves, who were by then sick and tired of the atrocities committed by the terrorists in the name of faith.

The two communities have always lived in peace - in Punjab and elsewhere. They will continue to do so. Sikhs are the brave soldiers of this great nation and Punjab is its inseparable part. Some people however find it very difficult to digest this.

The Khalistan movement is DEAD....thankfully for the people of Punjab, in particular the Sikhs. Khalistan is past tense.

Any thoughts...any one ??? AnwarA 16:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I know Zafarnamah isn't gonna like me saying this, but I tend to agree. Khalistan is *dead*. Bhindranwale was not a martyr - he was overcome by ego and did evil things (or at the very least turned a blind eye to atrocious acts when he had the power to stop them). As I've said many many many times on this page, we're not here to decide what is real or not. If published sources contain details we should cover them - not make opinions about whether they're true or not. As such, both the views of KPS Gill and the views represented by the sources Zafarnamah has given need to be included here. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Amen to that! AnvarA is a bigoted Punjabi Hindu, who removed all references to Operation Blue star and has provides the Indian states (the sarkari) account. People like him would sell their mothers if they had to...that's how they denied Punjabi being their mother tongue. Let's see what's he's to up next. He has already removed much information from legitamite third-party sources.138.49.154.3 17:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

What kind of a language is this person using. I strongly object. Please apologise to Anwar and concentrate on making the article better. -- 203.101.3.184 18:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, comments such as "AnvarA is a bigoted Punjabi Hindu" and "People like him would sell their mothers" are not acceptable here. Even though you're an anonymous IP, you can *STILL* be banned. Remain civil. Thanks. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear friends! Please pay no attention to 138.49.154.3's comments, (which I have no doubt is Zafarnama). I have not taken no offence as the comments are motivated by a sheer frustration and helplessness. My objective is to turn this article into a good article and I would require your support in doing that. I have enough knowlege of this subject simply by virtue of the three decades I have spent in Punjab. AnwarA 16:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

AnvarA, your assumption is incorrect! I disagree with you and Sukh about the nature of the movement, which is weak but NOT dead. Therefore, it must be stated in present-tense This is not a military movement; it is highly political. Dal Khalsa and SAD-Amrtitsar as political entities based in Punjab that support this movement, so how can it be dead? As long as a single person get up and demands Khalistan, the movement according to English grammer must be stated in the present-tense.

Sukh, you are misinformed about Bhindranwale. No need to engage in slander and libel if you have not listened to his speeches. Primary sources take precedence to the propoganda of the Indian state's media, of which you are a victim. If you want to discuss Bhindranwale, I would suggest we debate the content of his speeches, which have been translated in form of a book by Sandhu in case you don't have access to the audio files that are also freely available. Also see for a refutation of your assumptions.

AnvarA presents his communal version of this article supported by criminals like K.P.S Gill (according to Human Rights Watch) and Brar who killed tens of thousands of innocent Sikhs. Originally, we had a more scholarly version with a long list of references from mainstream scholars like Joyce Pettigrew and human rights activists like Ram Narayan Kumar. Why has AnvarA removed most of them? If he is impartial, he should agree that both sides of the story need to be told. We have two sides of the story in front of us--one in the original article represented in the version and second represented by . Why don't we add the second version to the first, so we have a balanced story? Otherwise, a revert war is inevitable. Zafarnamah 20:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't time to read that document just yet, so I will reserve further judgement until I have. However, for the record, KPS Gill's side of the story definately deserves MORE than just a mention on this page. And, Joyce Pettigrew may be a mainstream scholar (whatever that means), but her list of publications doesn't suggest that: .

But I agree with Zafarnamah that *both* sides of the story need to be told, and and such, both sources can (and should) be used. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I would not restrict myself to Pettigrew in any manner. There are dozens of non-Sikh scholars who have been cited in the version that I support. In my version, I even ended the Blue Star account with a quote from Brar, providing a sarkari version of the story. I think if we do NOT remove mainstream scholarly sources and, at the same time, add Indian govenment sources like Brar, the article would appear much more balanced. This is the best alternative if we are to more forward constructively.Zafarnamah 20:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Arvsingh AnvarA is quoting lies and exaggeration to prevent documentation of organized discrimination and genocide of Sikhs in Punjab. I strongly believe that his comments should be removed from here as they are insulting and offensive to the Sikh religious sentiments. He is reusing the old propoganda articles of the Indian Government and the bigot Hindu newspapers from Punjab. It is amazing how people like him have instigated and provoked Sikhs in Punjab and they continue to do so. Even after the massacre of Sikh pilgrims inside the Golden Temple, genocide of thousands of Sikh youths in rural Punjab, massacre of thousands of Sikhs in Delhi and other parts of India, bigots like him have the audacity to blame the Sikhs and quote lies to defame the Sikhs. Please remove his idiotic comments and allow the people to contribute to this section.

Anwar has not personally attacked anyone and as far as I am aware is only expressing his view. Misplaced Pages is not censored and his view has as much right to be here as yours. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 10:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Bhindranwale

(There was too much indentation so I decided to start a new thread)

Well, I guess when Zafarnama talks of Bhindrawale's "inspiring" speaches, I doubt if he is referring to one of those speaches when he encouraged every Sikh boy to keep 200 grenades with him, or when he directed each village to raise a team of three youth with one revolver each and a motorcycle. I also doubt whether he is referring to a speach delivered to his "devotees" in which he said "those who want to become extremists should raise their hands and others should hang their heads like goats. Perhaps he is referring to one of those speaches in which he said that a mere 35 Hindus fell to the portion of each Sikh and encouraged his followers to procure a motorcycle, a gun, and to set about their task (of eliminating Hindus and Nirankaris) in earnest.

Bhindrawale's speaches are no secret. These are extracts from Bhindrawale's speaches published by the Damdami Taksal and have been mocked by eminent writers such as Khushwant Singh. Khushwant Singh writes: "...Did the Sikhs deserve to be taught a lesson? I pondered over the matter for many days and many hours and reluctantly admitted that Hindus had some justification for their anger against Sikhs. The starting point was the emergence of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale as a leader.He (Bhindrawale) used vituperative language against the Hindus. He exhorted every Sikh to kill 32 Hindus to solve the Hindu-Sikh problem. Anyone who opposed him was put on his hit list and some eliminated. His hoodlums murdered Lala Jagat Narain, founder of the Hind Samachar group of papers. They killed hawkers who sold their papers.

The list of Bhindranwale's victims, which included both Hindus and Sikhs, was a long one. More depressing to me was that no one spoke out openly against him. He had a wily patron in Giani Zail Singh who had him released when he was charged as an accomplice in the murder of Jagat Narain. Akali leaders supported him..."

The Very same article critizes in the harshest words the anti-sikh riots and the subsequent government inaction in bringing the culprits to justice. I guess he is also a criminal, eh Zafar? ;-)

Yet, worst still was the fact that Bhindrawale had the audacity to carry at all times an arrow imitating the Tenth Guru, Shri Guru Gobind Singh.

To quote Khushwant Singh yet again: "The dark months of alienation are over; the new dawn promises blue skies and sunshine for the minorities with only one black cloud remaining to be blown away-a fair deal to families of victims of the anti-Sikh violence of 1984..."

The two communities are brothers again. The Sikh is once again the venerable "Sardar Ji" for the entire nation. AnwarA 05:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I have extensive familiarity with Jarnail Singh's speeches. I have never heard of him advocating hate against "Hindus". His target was the government which openly favors the Hindus--Bhindranwale was intelligent enough to make this important distinction. Khushwant Singh is cooking up facts based on his reading of the Indian media and not Bhindranwale's speeches. I challenge you to find me a mention of "200 grenades" that you mention--if you can not, then you are also guilty of cooking up facts like Khushwanta. I am yet to find a speech in which Bhindranwale spread hate against any community; his target was the oppressive state which has one set of rules for Hindus and another set for Sikhs and Muslims. Tell me why are Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler, Kamal Nath roaming free and why did Satwant Singh and Beant Singh receive "justice" immediately? Why is Narendra Modi, a Hindu militant roaming free, when Muslims are punished with utmost swiftness? Anwar Lal, the issue of Khalistan is alive because Sikhs have not seen justice--not a single issue has been resolved. Sikhs have a very long memory if you have read your history books and await justice and this lack of justice is the main causes of the movement for Khalistan.Zafarnamah 20:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, K.P.S. Gill cannot be quoted because he is a criminal. Khushwant Singh cannot be quoted because he cooking facts. Interesting! So anyone who does not subsribe to your views is either a criminal or a liar or a bigoted Hindu ???? AnwarA 03:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

My philosophy is that anyone too close to the situation has the potential to be biased, so let's judge the situation using non-Sikh and non-Hindu sources. Bigoted Hindus or Sikhs should be called to service only to present a communitarian perspective, so that ALL views are represented and nothing is left out. Comprende? That's why your insidious efforts to remove all references of Western scholars and provide only the govenment-endorsed accounts are inexcusable. KPS Gill has killed innocent Sikhs for the Indian state and Khushwant Singh is a Keshadhari Hindu in my book. Zafarnamah 18:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

AnvarA, this would be illuminating for you: it concerns the myth of justice and peace returning to Punjab. Amarjit Singh is addressing Kuldip Nayar, a Panjabi Hindu who served as the Indian High Commissioner in the U.K. He came to the Chicago Palentine Gurdwara making claims of peace returning to Punjab. After this rejoinder by Amarjit Singh to his speech, he ran away with his face hanging in shame. Zafarnamah 03:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Arvsingh Another attempt by AnvarA to dispute the facts on discrimination and genocide of Sikhs in India. Please remove his comments as they are hurtful to many who suffered under the persecution by the Indian Government. People like him have only one agenda - to provoke others. Advice for AnvarA "Find something else to do and do not spread false lies about Sikhs. One day you have to answer to a supreme authority for your actions. How will you explain these lies?"

Anwar has not personally attacked anyone and as far as I am aware is only expressing his view. Misplaced Pages is not censored and his view has as much right to be here as yours. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 10:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

When did Jarnail Singh declare himself the 11th Guru of the Sikhs? - This statement is false and he never declared himself as such.

Protected

This page has been protected because there has been too much reverting without any discussion. What's more the reverts are identical which shows a complete lack of any attempt to debate or compromise.Blnguyen | rant-line 07:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.. It was really disturbing to see only reverts on this page... Now that its protected, I am willing to participate in the discussions on this page on what should be included and what not. Regards -- Lost 08:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Lost, I look forward to working with you and others. It has been frustrating to see too much pro-India reverts by three individuals here without any desire to discuss the legitimacy of third-party sources that diverge significantly from the Indian account. 138.49.98.58 09:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Should we begin by deciding that we will use only neutral/third party sources and link to/cite pro India/ pro Khalistan sources only if the third party sources are absent? -- Lost 10:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I am in complete agreement with this view. Some tactical suggestions on how to proceed are below. Zafarnamah 19:32, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to say I completely disagree with this approach. Not only do I feel it is subjective to decide what is neutral, but it goes against Misplaced Pages policy. I think a better approach would be to strip out all citations from unpublished work. Essentially, that means anything that isn't in a book or newspaper. If any sources conflict, we should offer *all* sources and opinions in equal measure with equal footing. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have absolutely no issues with Sukh's approach, as long as we also adhere to WP:NPOV. To borrow a line from Newton: Every action must have had a reaction (not necessarily equal and opposite though). It is important to document both the action and the reaction. But seriously speaking, I do view the current external links and citations as biased in both versions -- Lost 20:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts, Sukh, I think it is not subjective to decide whats neutral. Otherwise how would we ever adhere to WP:NPOV. I also dont understand how we are violating WP:V if we are going to cite published sources -- Lost 20:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think generally the three of us are in agreement that we need to provide a balanced perspective. I like Lost's suggestion that we first use "neurtal" third-party sources that are established scholars on the Punjab conflict and human rights. This ought to be supplemented by additional perspectives available only when completely necessary. Zafarnamah 20:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I should probably clarify what I meant. I don't think it's suitable for us to discount sources (on either side) merely because they appear biased to us. For example, KPS Gill's accounts of events are evidentally going to be biased - but that's not for us to judge. As he was so deeply involved in crushing the separtist movement, his opinion deserves more than a mention here. In addition, we should find sources that may conteract what KPS Gill claims.

Either way, we're all in agreement as to what this page needs to become. I'll continue this conversation further down in the suggested sources section. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Potential Compromise and Resolution Suggestions

Lost, thank you for your initiative to begin these discussions afresh! There are two popular versions that demand our scrutiny as a group:

1. An abridged version (see ) based largely on Western scholars and human rights groups as far as the post-1984 account is concerned. This version has been abridged from a much more comprehensive version that is reflective of the complete history but was deemed to be too long for an encyclopedia entry.

2. A highly pro-India version (that is current on the main article page ) removes most of the credible third-party sources by Western scholars and inserts the accounts of Indian govenment operatives such as ex-Major General K.S. Brar and the former Director General of Punjab Police and a convicted sex-criminal K.P.S. Gill (see recent news about him at and ).

(((hahaha, just thought the convicted sex-criminal in bold was funny, hahaha))) 219.91.203.71 23:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

...and Bhindrawale was a non convicted one. I heard he screwed a lot of Sikh women inside the Golden Temple. That may explain where Zafarnama came from and that also explains his affection for Bhindrawale. Therefore no improvement to this article is possible as long as this bastard (Zafarnama) continues pushing his POV. I heard they still have fragments of his skull buried under the Akal Takht...may be a DNA test will help :-)

To satisfy all parties, I would like to propose that select pro-India sources from # 2 above be added to #1. A good example of this proposal is reflected in the Operation Bluestar section of #1, which ends the section by also quoting K.S. Brar who led the attack on behalf of the Indian state. Thus, both sides of the story are narrated. The scholarly sources (such as Joyce Pettigrew, Cynthia Mahmood, Ram Narayan Kumar, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty Internation, Christian Science Monitor, The New York Times, etc.) that are cited in #1 are important to include since they provide the most credible evidence based on research and factual accounts by recognized authorities in the field. Furthermore, the comprehensive reading list at the end of #1 demands our attention.

The suggestions of others are welcome so we may make progress on this article.Zafarnamah 19:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Zafarnamah, I agree with you that the scholarly sources mentioned by you above must be cited as much as possible. Especially those sources that have done some good research on the subject.

In fact I think we should exclusively cite only the reliable neutral sources. But we really really need to make sure that we tell the truth from a neutral point of view. That is one of the core policies of Misplaced Pages.

Most of the current list of external links and citations in both versions of the current article seem biased one way or the other to me.

Quoting a journalist sometimes carries a risk as those remarks are made against a current backdrop and do not take the comprehensive situation into view.

I found the following two links quite neutral and comprehensive. Please feel free to add any neutral source to the below list. Then lets start modifying the article with the help of an admin till it reflects the accurate and neutral point of view. -- Lost 19:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer if we stuck to Human Rights groups and established scholars with specilization on Punjab. The Yale article is by someone who has zero expetise on any region of South Asia, let alone Punjab. Zafarnamah 20:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Possible sources for a neutral article

SOURCES AVAILABLE ONLINE

• Comprehensive list of independent Human Rights sources on Punjab -- Amensty International, Human Rights Watch, Physicians for Human Rights.
• HRW detailing Punjab problem from both sides
• Ram Narayan Kumar et al. Reduced to Ashes: The Insurgency and Human Rights in Punjab. South Asia Forum for Human Rights, 2003.
• Jaskaran Kaur, Barbara Crossette. Twenty Years of Impunity: The November 1984 Pogroms of Sikhs in India. London: Nectar, 2004.
• Jaskaran Kaur. "A Judicial Blackout: Judicial Impunity for Disappearances in Punjab, India," Harvard Human Rights Journal / Vol. 15, Spring 2002
• Amnesty International, “India: Break the cycle of impunity and torture in Punjab”, January 2003.
• Cynthia Keppley Mahmood, “Writing the Bones,” Human Rights Review, October-December, 1999.
• R.S. Sandhu. Struggle for Justice: Speeches and Conversations of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. Ohio: SERF, 1999. (Excerpts at )
• Mark Tully. "After Blue Star", BBC Television Programme. Transcript available: .
• Gendercide.com -- Case study on gendercide in India in the context of Sikhs/Punjab

• Google Books . Some of the books below are available to search here. Excellent resource.

SOURCES NOT AVAILABLE ONLINE

• Cynthia Keppley Mahmood. Fighting for Faith and Nation: Dialogues With Sikh Militants. University of Pennsylvania Press.
• Cynthia Keppley Mahmood. A Sea Of Orange: Writings on the Sikhs and India. Xlibris Corporation.
• Cynthia Keppley Mahmood. “Dynamics of Terror in Punjab and Kashmir,” Jeffrey A. Sluka, ed., Death Squad: The Anthropology of State Terror, Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2000.
• Joyce Pettigrew. The Sikhs of the Punjab: Unheard Voices of State and Guerrilla Violence. Zed Books Ltd., 1995.
• Joyce Pettigrew. “Parents and Their Children in Situations of Terror: Disappearances and Special Police Activity in Punjab.” Jeffrey A. Sluka, ed., Death Squad: The Anthropology of State Terror, Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2000.
• Harnik Deol. Religion and Nationalism in India: The Case of the Punjab. London: Routledge, 2000
• Iqbal Singh. Punjab Under Siege: A Critical Analysis. New York: Allen, McMillan and Enderson, 1986.
• Paul Brass. Language, Religion and Politics in North India. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1974.
• Mark Tully, Satish Jacob. "Amritsar - Mrs Gandhi's Last Battle". Jonathan Capte Ltd, 1985 (reprinted 1986).

These are good for looking at other possible sources, but they're not good enough to be referenced directly for an article as controversial as this. Please see my post above and give your views. Thanks! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Zafarnamah, I do not have access to the offline books etc. so will not be able to comment on them. However, the external links that you added are all for Pro Khalistan websites. This is exactly what I am trying to caution against when I speak of WP:NPOV. Can we look at websites/ references that dont tell just one side of the story. Also please see the conversation with Sukh -- Lost 20:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Lost, that' a huge generalization. Can you be specific on each source. Please don't look at the webpage but the actual source. For example, a PDF file by Amensty International on a so-called "Khalistani website" is still Amenesty's work. Would you not agree? If you find a particual source that is indeed Khalistani I would support its removal. Zafarnamah 20:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, let me put it this way. I would be much more comfortable if we linked to Amnesty's report on Amnesty's website instead of a third site. -- Lost 20:41, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no issues with that. We have the title and we should be able to find it directly on Amenesty's site as well. And the same goes for other sources. I am glad that we agree in philosophy that we need to look at the author/content and not the site on which the work is distributed. Zafarnamah 20:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely no issues. But as I said above, it will be our duty to view it from a neutral editor's perspective. So if Amnesty talks about an issue, we should put a perspective to the issue as seen from both sides using reliable sources. -- Lost 20:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, please see my clarification above. I think we can all agree to the following basic principles of what we can reference:

• Published books and reports
• Peer-reviewed papers/reports
• Published newspapers and their online editions

In addition, we should refrain from quoting unless absolutely necessary. We're not writing a thesis here, merely a *short* yet concise encyclopedia article. The current article is poor in respect to the fact that it quotes a lot. We can use the notes section to expand on snippets from books, but they should not be in the body of the article.

I propose that we start a new article at /Temp and add only information that fulfils the above criteria. We can start by considering a layout and basic topics to be covered. We should also write the introduction last (for obvious reasons). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we should begin with a set of issues that have divided us before and reach a consensus on them. Once we nail them down, we would make much better progress. Zafarnamah 22:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, lets list the controversial ones on this page and have a debate around them. The basic facts that are not controversial (are there any?) can be put on the temp article. I will not be able to be regular for the next few days, but now that we have a discussion on, I am sure we can carry it on. I will keep butting in and out as time permits. Also I hope more people join in, so that we can take everyone forward on this -- Lost 12:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I heard Bhindrawale screwed a lot of Sikh women inside the Golden Temple. That may explain where Zafarnama came from and that also explains his affection for Bhindrawale. Therefore no improvement to this article is possible as long as this bastard (Zafarnama) continues pushing his POV.

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