Talk:Gabor B. Racz - Misplaced Pages

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Gabor B. Racz is currently a Biology and medicine good article nominee. Nominated by Atsme at 17:16, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

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Gabor B. Racz was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 1, 2014	Good article nominee	Listed
August 3, 2015	Good article reassessment	Delisted

A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 25, 2014.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Gabor Racz fled Budapest in 1956 after the Hungarian revolution and went on to hold a million-dollar endowed chair in anesthesiology at Texas Tech?

Current status: Delisted good article

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Racz procedure

Just wanted to say that from a layperson's perspective, the rewrite of that section is clearly an improvement. Good job!! Atsme 20:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Thanks also for tweaking the wording a bit. Apologies for taking so long to get those changes done; I had to learn about the procedure and everything before I could write about it and that takes time. I think there's still more to say about the catheter and its development, use, and reception (including the company he founded to manufacture it). I've seen some reports on problems with the catheter (apparently the tip can sometimes break off) but I think that information would belong in an article on the catheter itself, if one exists. Ca2james (talk) 15:16, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

You are quite welcome. ~~I can't think of anything more satisfying than GF collaboration.~~ GF collaboration can be quite satisfying.

It's all about the syntax. Atsme 15:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

New GA nomination

I see that this article has been re-nominated as a GA. I don't think it's ready for GA as it's still missing info about the regional pain procedures he's involved with as well as info about his company, which means the article incomplete. The prose, sourcing, and structure also need work. I am working on all of this but it's going to take time to improve this article. Thanks. Ca2james (talk) 19:51, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Doc James already said it was ready. The article laid idle until I nominated it for GA today, and now you suddenly show up to destabilize it? Please stand down. Pain procedures belong in a separate medical article about such procedures. We don't need such detail in a biography. As for company information, we've mentioned it enough for this biography. If you want to create a spin-off article about the company go ahead. Furthermore, the additional information needs to be RS, and it can always be added later to expand the article for potential FA promotion. One step at a time - let the GA process proceed without further disruption, and stop eliminating biographical content. Atsme 21:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Doc James said that it is way better than it was, which is not at all the same thing as saying it's ready for GA review. If you want to remove the pain procedures, go ahead; I expanded them because they were already there. There's still nothing in the article about the company he started, and there probably should be, because that's part of his history.

The article still needs a lot of work because I'm still finding problems with it. For example, references didn't support that Ian McWhinney helped him - one said that he received unnamed help and the other was an acknowledgement for unspecified help in a book. Putting them together to state that McWhinney helped Racz is OR. Also, the name of the co-director in the article, Mark Boswell, was not supported by references.

But whatever. I'm going to continue to work on the article to improve it (I hadn't noticed that you'd re-nominated it until I was a few edits in) and we'll let the GA review process go ahead even though I think it's way premature. Ca2james (talk) 22:33, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Adding: I'm wrong about him starting a company, and I apologize for that confusion. According to the company's history, the company was started by Gabor J. Racz, and this is Gabor B. Racz. This is great news because it means the article isn't lacking in this way. Ca2james (talk) 00:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I prefer to not remove anything that is informational and actually hope we can find more to expand the article. As you may already be aware, it's difficult to find MEDRS quality for biographical content, especially for academics, so we use the best we can find including self-published, local newspapers, CVs, etc. The article needs to be rebuilt to where it was before so much of his biographical material was removed. The prose needs to be engaging, not flat as what some have suggested. Flat works with medical articles, not biographies. Fortunately, GAs don't have a minimum prose requirement but if we ever hope to get it promoted to FA, it needs more content. FA reviewers don't like outlines. They want to know the what, why, where, and how. Example, he fled Hungary. Really? Why? With whom did he leave? How did escape? Where did he go? How did he get there? What did he do when he got there? I'm not saying to include trivial info but we do need more biographical content. Once we have it all together, we can start paring it down by tightening the prose. See . Atsme 01:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I see your point. I do think we have to be careful not to turn the article into something dramatic. I think you're very talented at writing stuff for TV to convey a message but here we're trying to be neutral in relating what happened. So we don't want to use the kind of language that TV does - we want to describe what happened without the dramatic context.

With respect to the positions be held at SUNY, my principle objection is with the phrasing "duties included" because that reads like a resume or cv. I admit that I jumped the gun in removing that sentence as it can be reworked, and I apologise for that. Going forward, I'll try to rework something before outright removal. Please know that when I've removed text that isn't supported by its refs I have looked for a new ref.

I agree that there aren't alot of great sources for articles like this so we'll work with what we have. Ca2james (talk) 03:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Your response is so uplifting, I'm at a loss for words. Thank you!! It represents everything I'm accustomed to in GF collaboration. You made my day, Ca2james! Atsme 23:42, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The two paragraphs on medical procedures are inappropriate. WP is not a surgical textbook. Nor are the references for them acceptable.MedRS applies to medical content: Refs 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 20, 21, and 22 should not be used here for any purpose. Ref 16, is OK; it illustrates some of the exceptions: it documents the original report on new technique that is shown by secondary sources to be notable.

Additionally,all the book references need some context, as usual with printed book. It is necessary to show that they are more than mere mentions. Thisis especially the case when the ref is to a single page or a pair of adjacent pages.

I am not sure there is sufficient usable material here to ever be GA; in any case I am quite sure that at present there is not. "there aren't alot of great sources for articles like this so we'll work with what we have." is unacceptable for medical topics, and unacceptable for GA. GAs have good sources. DGG ( talk ) 23:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, DGG. I'm not so familiar with MEDRS and I didn't realize that those sources were inappropriate so I appreciate your input. When I said that there aren't a lot of great sources I was referring to his life and career, not the medical techniques. Not that poor sourcing for his life is much better! There just isn't much of anything out there on this doctor. Aside from the bios written in journals and the books he's published (and I don't know whether those are considered RS) there are a few articles in the Texas Tech paper and the local Lubbock paper but that's it. He did develop the Racz catheter and the Racz procedure but those facts don't seem to be written up anywhere. He's also one of the founders of WIP, but again that's not written up in independent sources. I'm at a loss as to what to do with this article; based on your comments I think most of it should be gutted. Is that right? I'd appreciate any advice or help you can give. Thanks. Ca2james (talk) 23:39, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree with DGG. See the following for my reasons:

Gabor B. Racz is a world-renowned physician and academic. It would be an absolute shame to slight any medical practitioner who has accomplished the milestones in pain medicine that he has accomplished. Atsme 23:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

One of the differences between those GAs and this article is that there are quite a few independent sources describing those people's notability. In this case, most of the sources describing Racz' accomplishments don't appear to be independent but are instead bios in journals and books. He might well be the greatest physician since sliced bread but we need independent sources telling us that.. and although I've looked for them I haven't seen them. Ca2james (talk) 00:18, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

As usual, I consider using really notable people to prove the notability of less important ones in the same profession an absurd line of argument. I'm going to give some advice--trying to bring this to GA was an error of judgment, for it merely called attention to its inadequacies. DGG ( talk ) 00:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the excess surgical descriptions and the refs listed above as unsuitable. Because the reference numbering has now changed, I've copied the old refs here so that we know which ref is paired with which original number. Ca2james (talk) 15:36, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

List of references removed with the reference numbers used above
ref 9: Anderson, Susan R.; Racz, Gabor B.; Heavner, James (July 2000). "Evolution of Epidural Lysis of Adhesions" (PDF). Pain Physician Journal. 3 (3): 262–270. PMID 16906184. ref 11: Lenchig, Sergio; Lindley, David (2012). "Chapter 4.2 Caudal Adhesiolysis". In Gupta, Anita (ed.). Interventional Pain Medicine. Oxford University Press. pp. 629–639. ISBN 9780199740604. ref 13: Lee, Frank; Jamison, David E.; Hurley, Robert W.; Cohen, Stephen P. (January 2014). "Epidural Lysis of Adhesions". Korean Journal of Pain. 27 (1): 3–15. doi:10.3344/kjp.2014.27.1.3. PMID 24478895. ref 15: Manchikanti, Laxmaiah; Singh, Vijay (January 2003). "Interventional Pain Management: Evolving Issues For 2003" (PDF). Pain Physician Journal. 6 (1): 125–137. ISSN 1533-3159. PMID 16878168. ref 17: "Gabor B. Racz, MD". Spine Universe. Retrieved July 9, 2015. ref 20: Kalpana R. Kulkarni, Anita I. Kadam, Ismile J. Namazi (November 2010). "Efficacy of Stellate Ganglion Block with an Adjuvant Ketamine for Peripheral Vascular Disease of the Upper Limbs" (PDF). Indian Journal of Anesthesia. 54 (6): 546–551. doi:10.4103/0019-5049.72645. PMID 21224973.`{{cite journal}}`: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link) ref 21: Ola T. Abdel Dayem, Mostafa M. Saeid, Olfat M. Ismail, Adel M. El Badrawy, and Nevert A. Abdel Ghaffar (2014). "Ultrasound Guided Stellate Ganglion Block in Postmastectomy Pain Syndrome: A Comparison of Ketamine versus Morphine as Adjuvant to Bupivacaine". Journal of Anesthesiology. 2014: 6. doi:10.1155/2014/792569.`{{cite journal}}`: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link) ref 22: John Davis (November 10, 2005). "Procedure uses phenol, Botox to help restore normalcy to patients - Putting a stop to pain". Lubbock Avalanche-Journal. Retrieved April 5, 2014.

List of references removed with the reference numbers used above

ref 9: Anderson, Susan R.; Racz, Gabor B.; Heavner, James (July 2000). "Evolution of Epidural Lysis of Adhesions" (PDF). Pain Physician Journal. 3 (3): 262–270. PMID 16906184.
ref 11: Lenchig, Sergio; Lindley, David (2012). "Chapter 4.2 Caudal Adhesiolysis". In Gupta, Anita (ed.). Interventional Pain Medicine. Oxford University Press. pp. 629–639. ISBN 9780199740604.
ref 13: Lee, Frank; Jamison, David E.; Hurley, Robert W.; Cohen, Stephen P. (January 2014). "Epidural Lysis of Adhesions". Korean Journal of Pain. 27 (1): 3–15. doi:10.3344/kjp.2014.27.1.3. PMID 24478895.
ref 15: Manchikanti, Laxmaiah; Singh, Vijay (January 2003). "Interventional Pain Management: Evolving Issues For 2003" (PDF). Pain Physician Journal. 6 (1): 125–137. ISSN 1533-3159. PMID 16878168.
ref 17: "Gabor B. Racz, MD". Spine Universe. Retrieved July 9, 2015.
ref 20: Kalpana R. Kulkarni, Anita I. Kadam, Ismile J. Namazi (November 2010). "Efficacy of Stellate Ganglion Block with an Adjuvant Ketamine for Peripheral Vascular Disease of the Upper Limbs" (PDF). Indian Journal of Anesthesia. 54 (6): 546–551. doi:10.4103/0019-5049.72645. PMID 21224973.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
ref 21: Ola T. Abdel Dayem, Mostafa M. Saeid, Olfat M. Ismail, Adel M. El Badrawy, and Nevert A. Abdel Ghaffar (2014). "Ultrasound Guided Stellate Ganglion Block in Postmastectomy Pain Syndrome: A Comparison of Ketamine versus Morphine as Adjuvant to Bupivacaine". Journal of Anesthesiology. 2014: 6. doi:10.1155/2014/792569.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
ref 22: John Davis (November 10, 2005). "Procedure uses phenol, Botox to help restore normalcy to patients - Putting a stop to pain". Lubbock Avalanche-Journal. Retrieved April 5, 2014.

McWhinney helping Racz

The references provided do not support the fact that Ian and Betty McWhinney helped Racz. The Acknowledgements page says I wish to dedicate this book to Ian McWhinney, M. D. and his wife Betty ... all of who helped and made my professional life possible at those times when help was most needed. There's no indication there that this help was to get him into medical school. Therefore, we cannot conclude that McWhinney and his wife did help hget into medical school. The other ref says that an unnamed someone helped him get into medical school. To conclude that it was McWhinney based on those two sources is OR.

Since the refs don't support this fact, I've removed that text again. If there is a source that specifically says McWhinney helped him get into medical school then the text could be re-added with that source. I couldn't find one, though. Ca2james (talk) 03:34, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it was OR and you fixed it; so have gone back to your text. Alexbrn (talk) 03:52, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

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