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Old Discussion

I don't think that Abstinence should itself be a top-level topic just to discuss abstaining from intercourse in order to avoid conceiving a child. Abstinence can mean abstaining from about anything: from meat if you're a vegetarian, from alcohol if you're a teetotaler, etc. If we don't want these to be subpages of contraception, perhaps that should be something like 'Abstinence as contraception'... although some opponents to contraception may see abstinence as an alternative to contraception, rather than a form of it.

Abstinence can mean the avoidance of many different things , but in ordinary use, I think it almost always means abstinence from sex, with abstinence from alcohol a distant second; see . "Abstinence from alcohol" has other descriptive terms ("sobriety," "teetotalism"), and "sexual abstinence" has one very important synonym: "chastity." But the latter has many religious connotations that the former doesn't have.

So, I'd propose the following article titles:

• abstinence a pointer page, pointing to sexual abstinence, chastity, and either sobriety or teetotalism
• sexual abstinence for a discussion of the sociology of sexual abstinence
• chastity for a discussion of religious and moral aspects of sexual abstinence
• either sobriety or teetotalism for a discussion of anti-alcoholism

--

Thanks for putting my abstinence comment up on the main page. I also like the article titles you proposed. In my experience, chastity is used to refer to 'sexual purity,' which would be sexual abstinence for those unmarried, and sexual faithfulness to one's spouse for those married. I think that was the second entry for chastity at dictionary.com. But it still seems very appropriate to link to the topic from the Abstinence page.

A related topic might be fasting, as in temporary abstinence from food, or just from certain types of food, for a limited period of time, whether for religious or medical reasons.

--Wesley

Can I suggest the first sentence of the intro be changed to read "Birth control is the practice of reducing probability of pregnancy or ending an unwanted pregnancy." Birth control is not a method, technique, device or drug. Moriori 03:08, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I like the synopsis of the Catholic Church's position that is given, but I think other religions should be covered as well, particularly the other major ones (Islam, Hinduism, etc).

I did not include specific references in my explanation of the history of birth control but plan to put them in later. I've seen reference to the things I wrote in several written sources, but it probably isn't authoritative. The history of the condom is a particular favorite for manipulation. Jeeves 01:48, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Some numbers...

Consider the addition of a natural method.

Temporary Sterilization

Sterilization is commonly associated with Surgical sterilization, and yet, other methods of sterilization exist which should be listed.

Temporary male sterilization by radiant heat. (ie. Hot Tub, Iron Radiator, etc.)

Additional research with regard to ideological inversion of medical/traditional fertility advice.

lin:

don't you think every indivudual should have a fair chance of living their life just how they want it? in china a family can only concider one child, in africa aids and hiv are very big concernings, so why aren't the contraceptions for free? I think it should be, that you can choose if you want children yes or no and that it isn't based on your money or government.

Appellations of Birth Control

I am refining the reference to family planning; birth control designates a subset of the activities of constituent of those termed family planning. Specifically, family planning often involves efforts to effect a pregnancy, not avoid one.

Furthermore, the statement that abortion is not birth control may be POV. Humanae Vitae, the Catholic encyclical which state's the Churches' position on birth control, applicable today to 1.3 billion persons, lumps abortion right in there with everything else under the heading Unlawful Birth Control Methods. The Church would seem to differentiate then between contraception and birth control, and this would be a POV which demands to be addressed.

It is not "POV" to say that abortion is not birth control, depending on what definition of birth control were working with. As mentioned in a comment below, the words contraception and birth control have been muddied, and further so by the implantatio/fertilization argument. It is made quite clear in the FIRST paragraph of the article, however, that this article uses the definition of preventing preganancy (thus equating contraception and birth control together). Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy that is already implanted and has begun gestation. No "birth control" option can terminate a pregnancy that is already in gestation, though they can possibly cause problems or induce a miscarriage, albeit rarely. But they are neither effective enough nor primarily used for that purpose, so they are labelled as birth control methods. Abortion (and chemical abortion) are terminations of pregnancies, and in no way "prevents" them in the medical sense of the word.SiberioS 17:51, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Major Ban on Use of Contraceptives

On 27 July 2005, the Wisconsin legislature — in a midnight session — banned all contraceptives and their uses from all state universities with bill . I seriously believe this totally unconstitutional attack should be noted prominently on the main page, but leave that discretion to others. — HopeSeekr of xMule (Talk) 15:46, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

One does not want Misplaced Pages to be too USA/UK/English-centric, but this is a clear example of the continuing controversy mentioned by the article's opening paragraphs and, if others agree, I suggest the addition of the following:

----

A recent example is the USA Wisconsin legislature in a midnight session on 27 July 2005, banning contraceptives and their uses from all state universities with bill ; this is being challanged.

David Ruben 18:45, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

But ... this is apparently the largest successful attack against "choice" in decades! In fact, the Pro-Life group who promoted it so vociferously finally fessed up: It's leadership came out this week proclaiming that they weren't concerned so much with the killing of fetuses as in limiting a woman's ability to get out of pregnancy in any instance (whether defensively or actively). It came down to them wanting to — and this is sickeningly scary ... in the Taliban sense! — reduce prolifency!!! They were more concerned with stopping sexual expression of women than saving what they claimed were the lives of fetuses. (this is very hard to semantically discuss in a NPOV :-//). Basically it all comes back to the Puritanical (and patriarchal religions in general) desire to keep women totally underdeveloped servants of men, something a heathilly expressed sexuality thoroughly thrashes. — HopeSeekr of xMule (Talk) 20:51, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a case of misrepresentation by a few leaders, it certainly doesnt not represent the view at the grass roots. Certainly the catholic position sees the anticontraception movement as re-establishing the dignity of women. See the writings of George Weigel for a decent overview.

How is an abortificient birth control?

Doesn't a pregnancy occur? --Rakista 16:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I suppose that technically, anything that prevents a birth is, etymologically speaking, birth control. The confusion is because "birth control" and "contraception" are often used interchangeably. Any effect that takes place after conception is not contraception. (This is further complicated by both the existence of methods that can work either before or after fertilization, and the fertilization vs. implantation debate, which I'm not even going to get into here!) --Icarus 06:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Should we merge it with the real abortifacient page, which is lacking this information? I am pretty sure anything that causes an abortion is not medically considered birth control. --Rakista 16:51, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

That's true. Abortion is not birth control at all. That is just as wrong as saying if you have an irritated cut on your hand, you should chop off your arm so an infection doesn't spread to the rest of your body.

Actually, people DO cut off their arms so the infection doesn't go to the whole body. Or are you unawareof gangrene, cancer, or other forms diseases that require either amputation or biopsys to remove the possibility of infection.SiberioS 17:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Percentages for different contraception methods

Could we have some percentages of failure for the different contraception methods? Peter S. 01:33, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Because I felt this, in a summarized form, along with an accessible list for various contraception methods would be useful, I made this article: Comparison of birth control methods. Of course, feel free to add on more information or improve it as necessary. :-) The percentages came from the publication listed under the article's "references" header. -- Northgrove 00:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Great job on the table - I corrected the values for IUS and renamed some of terms used to reflect common usage and how terms used in wikipedia (hence 'Perfect-use' rather than "Lowest possible" rates, progesterone rather than progestin (old arguement - yes I'll accept that synthetic progesterones are used called progestins, but that is not term used in clinical textbooks or (UK) drug formularies - so used term 'synthetic progesterone'). Also I converted the mathematical notation for range of values into prose (ie 'X<1%' to 'under 1%' and '1% < X < 5%' to 'under 5%').

More importantly, I wonder (having added a link to Pearl index) whether this tabe should not be merged to the incomplete table at Pearl index - that said, the Pearl index article discusses what the index is and only needs examples of index values, Comparison of birth control methods then lists a large number of methods, some of which did not even exist when the Pearl index was formulated. David Ruben 02:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Birth control in the Bible?

On the subject of Chrisitan attitudes towards birth control, I would like to know: Where in the Bible does it say that contraceptives are bad? Can anyone give some quotes to support this? (It might be relevant to have these in the article.) SpectrumDT 17:23, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Story of Onan and spilling of the seed. -- Jbamb 05:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not the sin of onan, onan is struck down because he is dishonouring his brother by refusing to father children who will bear his brothers name. At least that is what i was always taught. You could check out the catholic commentaries, they tend to have a more coherent interpretation of these passages that are so heavily Tradition dependant.... Birth Control is seen to be implicity wrong on the genisis quote "be fruitful and multiply" wherever it amounts to limiting the family for reasons of he convience of the parents, without reference to he well being of the potential child, ie if you will be unable to care for it in an absolute sense, and i doubt that that applies very often in the west..... For further reasoning check out John Paul II's Theology of the body. Also Anticontraception teaching is not new, and is mentioned in the writings of many of the early fathers.....I wish i could remember the references...... In fact it was always seen to be wrong, and is part of the living tradition of morality, it was just never wide spread enough to get enough attention for lots of formal teaching/theology until this century.

Nuva Ring

Id like to see some info added about NuvaRing, a birth control method which consists of inserting a ring into the vagina which releases hormones directly. It uses combination horomones (etonogestrel and ethinyl estradiol). Information regarding it can be found at nuvaring.com and plannedparenthood.org.

Abstinence and AIDs

"Recent research shows that abstinence-only strategies may deter contraceptive use among sexually active teenagers, increasing their risk of unintended pregnancy and STDs." www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_sex_ed02.html

If youth receive abstinence-only sex-ed, they will be less likely to use condoms if they have sex.

It's a moot point, considering there's no research indicating that abstinence-only sex-ed prevents AIDs transmission.

I'm sorry, using someone who has a vested interested in selling contraception and abortion is hardly considered a viable source. People are making unsupported claims, it should be stated as such. And quite frankly, when people have sex responsibly, AIDS well go away. Provide another source, or I'll put the perfectly fair NPOV statement back. -- Jbamb 05:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

First off, The Guttmacher Institute doesn't manufacture or sell contraceptives. It's a non-profit organization. Secondly, WikiPedia doesn't exist to judge peoples' viewpoints. Since there's no research that I can find indicating that abstinence-only sex-ed prevents HIV, if we're going to accuse one side making unsupported claims, we have to accuse the other of the same, if we're to remain unbiased.

First off, The Guttmacher Institute is the research arm of Planned Parenthood. There is no judgement needed here, you wouldn't ask Howard Dean to write an article on the GOP, would you? It's NPOV, not APOV (antagonistic). Find an unbiased source or it goes back up. -- Jbamb 06:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Check out wikipedia's entry on sex-ed, en.wikipedia.org/Sex_education#Scientific_study_of_sex_education. It links to and summarizes the results of a study printed in the British Medical Journal, which states that abstinence-only sex-ed fails to reduce teen pregnancy, and may in fact contribute to it.

Which is an entirely different issue all together. We aren't talking about teen pregnancy, and the study was flawed regardless. -- Jbamb 15:33, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Abstinence is the only strategy that has ever been shown to work, cf uganda and the ABC program, vs everywhere else and more condoms and more aids. Also aids transmission stats are often misleading, as they should be cumulative. so if they say 90% protection, that normally means over one year, which would mean 81% over two years etc...... phil_20686 Stats on std prevention can be found here:http://www.premaritalsex.info/docs/condomreport.pdf this is a USA fed gov report. Summary here:Summary of the 2001 NIH Reporton Condom Effectiveness

STD Incidence(est. number of new cases every year) Prevalence(est. number of people currently infected) Condom Effectiveness

HIV/AIDS 63,900** 900,000** 85% risk reduction*

Gonorrhea 650,000*** 359,000*** Women: No clinical proof of effectivenessMen: Some risk reduction*

Chlamydia 3 million*** 2 million*** No clinical proof of effectiveness*

Trichomoniasis 5 million*** Not Available No clinical proof of effectiveness*

Chancroid 1,000*** Not Available No clinical proof of effectiveness*

Syphilis 70,000*** 6,000**** No clinical proof of effectiveness*

Genital Herpes 1 million*** 45 million*** No clinical proof of effectiveness*

Human Papillomavirus (HPV) 5.5 million*** 20 million*** No clinical proof of effectiveness*

Phil 20686 20:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The only way to get "clinical proof of effectiveness" is to do a randomized trial with couples where one had a known STI and the other was known to be uninfected. Half the participants are told to use condoms when having sex with their infected partners, and the other half is told to have unprotected sex with infected partners. The circumstantial proof of condom's effectiveness (nothing like 100%, mind, but still a significant reduction in risk) against STIs is so overwhelming that it is considered unethical to even suggest such clinical proof trials be conducted.

Secondly, the widely touted Uganda ABC program has turned out only to be effective in reducing number of AIDs-infected people NOT because of A, B, or C but rather because of D. Death. So many people are dying of AIDs in Uganda that even though sexual behavoirs have not changed (there has been no measurable increase in abstinence, faithfullness, and condom usage has go up only slightly) the number of AIDs-infected people is going down.Study Lyrl 00:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, noone said that they do not provided risk reduction, but the question is and has always been, how much. Condoms are commonly touted as providing (near) total safetly from HIV, but 85% (presuabley over 1 year?) is a long way from totally safe. that would be 72% over two years etc..... With this level of 'safety' encourageing 'safe sex' will likely lead to more promiscuity and more infections. Besides, I do not think Death can be usd to explain it, as the population has not declined, and as 30% were infected in the 90's there must be a reason why rates have declines soo much more than in other african countries, and the only difference in approach is the ABC program. Thirdly, the link one refers to new data, it does not reference the study itself, and thus is of doubtful use. Phil 20686 23:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The study was presented at the 12th Annual Retrovirus Conference in Boston by Maria Wawer. More details of the study are here. The NPR clip I linked to first also has commentary by Ted Green of Harvard who believes abstinence and faithfullness did increase when the ABC program first started, but the Rachai study began after those two components had stopped changing (though the study actually documents a significant increase in promiscuous behavoir over the past decade).Lyrl 00:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Ancient IUDs

There are references in Arabic history to traders inserting a small stone into the uterus of a camel in order to prevent it from conceiving, a concept very similar to the modern IUD, but it seems unlikely that this was used as a contraceptive method for humans since knowledge of the female reproductive tract was very limited until the 20th century, and surgical techniques were poor.

Could someone point me to a cite for what follows "it seems unlikely"? Who says it seems unlikely? And what's the relevance of surgical techniques? Does the author of this sentence believe, perhaps, that surgery is involved in either human or camel birth control? What's more, I somewhat doubt that knowledge of the female reproductive tract -- at least, those parts of it into which something could be inserted and extracted -- was in any way limited prior to the 20th century. I suspect people have been inserting and extracting objects thusly for a very long time. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 07:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Inserting something into the vaginal canal is one thing. Forcing the cervical os open in order to insert something into the uterus is another thing entirely, and is considered surgery. Trans-vaginal surgery is less invasive than abdominal surgery, but it is surgery nonetheless. There is no written record of inserting birth control devices into the human uterus prior to about 1900. The early devices all had very high rates of infection. Seeing someone die of sepsis from a birth control method is likely to discourage use of that method, so I agree with the statement "it seems unlikely".

Actually, it appears the camel story itself is a myth

Legend has it that Arab camel drivers inspired the modern IUD. According to the story, tiny stones were inserted into the uterus of each female camel to prevent pregnancy during long caravan journeys across the desert (Bullough & Bullough, 1990). The story was a tall tale told to entertain delegates at a scientific conference on family planning, but it was repeated so many times that many people have assumed it is true (Thomsen, 1988). Lyrl 22:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Perhaps, then, the article might be edited by someone knowledgeable to make this clear. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Women's rights

After a quick look on this article, there's nothing about social issues, women's rights or feminism... Ericd 21:09, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

RISUG

Imagine a 100% effective, 100% reversible, minimally invasive method of male contraception. Well, it seems it exists: http://www.malecontraceptives.org/methods/risug.htm DalkeyArchivist 22:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

RISUG — Omegatron 22:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Blacksmith's water

From the "History of birth control" paragraph: The Greek gynaecologist Soranus in the second century AD suggested that women drink water that blacksmiths had used to cool metal.

Is this sentence supposed to be refering to a kind of folk abortifacient or rather a contraceptive? Does anyone have a source to verify this? I've only managed to find two references to such a practice (one a remedy for anemia/spleenic disorders?):

• The Proceedings of the 11th Annual History of Medicine Days: page 149, "Drinking blacksmith’s water to prevent pregnancy persisted from Ancient Greece (Himes 1963)."
• Descriptions of Blood and Blood Disorders Before the Advent of Laboratory Studies: "Celsus (tr. 1960) made one reference to a rural method of reducing splenomegaly which was the taking of water in which the blacksmith from time to time had dipped his red hot iron (? treatment of the splenomegaly that may on occasion accompany iron deficiency)."

-Severa (!!!) 10:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The way the article was written when I first saw it, I assumed that information was from the John Riddle book in the references. Before modern understanding of reproduction, people had no way of distinguishing between contraceptives and early-acting abortifacients - they were all just methods of birth control.Lyrl 14:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. -Severa (!!!) 11:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Pre-ejaculate fluid and pregnancy

While the citations and recent changes are helpful, I believe it is not telling the whole story. Please see the first few hits here and also the article on Pre-ejaculate. We should at least state that the effectiveness of coitus interruptus is not as high as other methods.--Andrew c 23:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The method effectiveness of withdrawal is comparable to barrier methods such as the condom (male and female) and diaphragm. The typical effectiveness of withdrawal is comparable to the female condom and to spermicide.

I do agree the current edit doesn't "tell the whole story" as it doesn't have warnings about disease transmission or picking up sperm from a previous ejaculation. I'm not sure how in detail a general article on birth control should go on a specific method, or even that my edit is appropriate. I was just tired of reverting edits saying that pre-e was always full of viable sperm. Lyrl 01:15, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I see now, looking through the page history, you were just correcting a fairly poor addition. Perhaps this article would be best without the sentence in question (all this information and more can already be found at the coitus interruptus page). (also, in regards to effectiveness, there is the matter of perfect use vs. typical use)--Andrew c 01:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

See also edits on 9-May-2006, 15-April-2006, and 22-February-2006. This is a common problem. I agree the article is better without that sentence - I actually removed a paragraph going into the effectiveness of withdrawal on 15-February-2006. There has to be some way to avoid all the inaccurate edits without having a mini-article on withdrawal, right?Lyrl 02:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Effectiveness of birth control section

The section has been edited in such a way that it is biased against fertility awareness and withdrawal. I suspect such edits will be common if that section is left. I do not want to leave such biased edits there, but I also do not want to be continually "guarding" that section. I would like to simply delete that section from this article, and leave effectiveness discussions to the individual articles. What do others think of this proposal? Lyrl 00:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I suspect you will end up "guarding" against edits to effectiveness values on multiple pages.
• Also whilst each method's article can discuss details and benefits/risks/special points, this article would be the ideal method to compare and contrast some of the more important features, of which effectiveness is one aspect (so poorer levels with condoms may be suitable for separating further pregnancies as further children are not unwanted, IUCDs/hormonal perhaps higher levels). Also:
  • if permanent/reversible
  • time for return to fertility after use (e.g. 0-4 weeks for combined pill, 6-9 months for Depo-provera)
  • "hassle factors" (for pills the COCP 12hr window to take, POP 3hrs, IUD to check thread can be felt needs be done after each period)
  • frequency of review visits to doctor or nurse (in UK generally 6monthly for pills, annually for IUDs)
  • whether they provide any protection against STDs (we need not argue over minutiae, but generally abstinence, condoms & femidom yes and everything else no)
  • possibility of weight gain (no for IUD, possible but mild not uncommon for pills)
  • effect on heaviness of periods (pills & IUS generally lighter, IUD generally slightly heavier)
  • risks - e.g. DVT for combined pills, PID for IUDs. Combined pills small incr. risk breast cancer, but probably greater reduction in endometrial cancer.
  • secondary benefits - e.g. most combined pills help to some extent for acne (some more than others), IUS best of options for heavy periods as also used for menorrhagia. IUS/IUD best option for those on enzyme inducing drugs (anticonvulsants) when hormonal methods less effective
• Currently much of this article is to do with religious & cultural aspects rather than discussing/comparing methods, which is really good, but a comparative table it might make the article rather too long. So:
  • ? split all such comparative specifics (including the effectiveness rates) to a new page such as Birth control comparison, comparison of birth control, Comparison of contraceptives, Contraception methods ?
• Looks like I may have thought of too many options to fit into a table on a screen (allowing for those with monitors set at 800x600 resolution), so perhaps:
  1. A standard-format bullet-point list - i.e. each method forms a section with a set sequence of bullet-point items OR
  2. A standardising template box that can be completed on each method's article page - e.g. see how the Drugbox template gives a consistant look and organisation of data on say Amoxicillin & Diazepam - If this has wide support, I'm happy to create such a basis for such a template where discussion can be held on which parameters we wish to include.

David Ruben 01:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to code either a table or template for this, or help out in that regard, once we can decide on the right course of action. I feel like a basic comparison table could work for the main article, and perhaps have a more detailed template for the individual articles. And to address Lyrl's concerns, I think users would be less likely to edit war over the numbers in a table, especially if each and every figure is backed up with reliable sources. --Andrew c 01:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The actual articles fertility awareness and coitus interruptus only rarely get those edits, whether because of the more extensive information provided there, or because of their lower visibility I do not know. I do not believe they are any better sourced. It concerned me to see the current POV edit happen just three days after creation of the new section. Anything others could do to reduce the frequency of such occurences I would be happy to see. Lyrl 23:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Lyrl - I have not really peviously watched this article, and it is not immediately apparant from the history, but whom do you feel you have been "guarding" against - anons or registered users. If the former and this has been systemtic, then I believe articles can be made 'restricted status' by admins (allows only registered users to edit) - but I'm not sure what the criteria are for this to be felt an appropriate restriction on wikipedia's "the 💕". David Ruben 01:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Infobox for individual birth control method articles

Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Misplaced Pages Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Quick call for final viewing of infobox before I turn it live with active coding (for the optional parameters). Also please confirm suggested name of BirthControl infobox . Thanks David Ruben 02:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Opposition to Catholic teaching on birth control

This section was expanded, I moved the information to the main article Christian views on contraception. But then the information was re-added to this article. Is the expansion necessary for the summary on this page? There is an entire article dedicated to the subject of Christianity and contraception that readers could go to if they wanted to read more. Lyrl 01:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say keep it on the subpage, as long as there is a tag directing to it. But let's give anon a chance to defend the position.--Andrew c 02:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Content removed from Sexual intercourse

An editor removed the following from Sexual intercourse with the statement that it would belong better here. Opinions on how to integrate the material would be welcome.

A ] such as a ] is among the most effective methods of birth control short of sterilization or abstinence, with the ] stating that with "typical" condom use (in which condoms were sometimes incorrectly or inconsistently used), they have a failure rate of only 10-14% (with "ideal" use, they are 97% effective).<ref>World Health Organization, "Effectiveness of male latex condoms in protecting against pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections" Fact Sheet #243 (June 2000), online at http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs243/en/.</ref> ] (] for women or ] for men) is considered permanent birth control, though it can sometimes ], or, rarely, the body can repair itself. ], and other sexual contact (such as ] or ]), in which there is sexual activity without penis insertion, can be performed without resulting in pregnancy provided that semen does not come in contact with the ].

Cheers, Kasreyn 02:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Modern folklore clarification

The Modern folklore section refers to "the myth that a woman cannot get pregnant if she has sex during her period" This has a kernal of truth to it, though. Studies have shown that the intercourse on the first 5-6 days of a menstrual cycle has a less-than-1% per-year chance of pregnancy (Weshler says five days, Kippley says six). Exceptions are annovulatory bleeding (which someone not tracking fertility signs would be unable to recognize) and women who tend to unusually early ovulations (common during perimenopause). And many women have periods that last longer than five or six days.

Sex during menstruation is certainly not effective birth control (absent other fertility awareness practices/knowledge). However, I'm reluctant to leave in that sentence that dismisses the entire idea of the first few days of a cycle being infertile. I'm not sure how to modify it to both be more accurate and still discourage uneducated attempts at unprotected intercourse. Any suggestions? Lyrl _Contribs 01:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

How about something like "While women are commonly significantly less fertile during the first few days of a menstrual cycle, it is still false to say that a woman can never get pregnant if she has sex during her period...." Sound ok? something along those line..--Andrew c 01:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

External links to NFP sites

These links have been deleted several times, with no explanation in the edit summary. Do other editors have opinions on whether they should be included? Lyrl _Contribs 13:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The editor who removed them had been posting an affiliate link site to several articles, and I removed them all since I deemed the URL to be of no benefit. I assume the removal of the other sites, which seem to be correctly placed in this article is a reaction to the revert of his previous postings. If you agree with my analysis, then IMO, that would be considered deliberate removal of content. --Brat32 15:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Quiverfull Movement

Unlike Catholic Opposition to the Church's teaching on contraception, which includes a majority of Catholics in Western countries, the Quiverfull movement is a tiny movement within Protestantism and is not notable. It shouldn't be in a general article on contraception.

-Alexeditor.

There are different definitions of "notable" used on Misplaced Pages. One I've seen is that something that results in 50-100 Google hits might be considered notable. A Google search of "quiverfull" generates 49,500 hits. Browsing through the first several pages, they all seem to be about the religious movement, and in the first five pages, only one Misplaced Pages article. By that measure, the movement would seem to be notable.

I also like the flow of the article better when it has two examples of religious people disagreeing with their leader's teachings on birth control. That makes the subject of Christian teachings on birth control a little less Catholic-centric. While the magnitude of opposition is completely different within the Catholic and Protestant communities, just the fact that the type of opposition goes both ways seems interesting enough to include in the article. Lyrl _Contribs 20:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a good enough argument for the Quiverfull movement having it's own page, but not it's own mention on a page like this one. This article would be endless if you were to include the views of every group imaginable on something such as Birth Control. Note that everything else in this section refers to the major religious views on Birth Control, even large groups such as the Mormons and the Orthodox Christians receive no mention as to their religious views on Birth Control. It's not appropriate to give space only to the most well known religions, and then a specific mention to a small group such as the Quiverfull movement. The mention of Catholic opposition to Birth Control is notable only because it is so widespread that a discussion on Catholic views regarding contraception would be incomplete without it.

-Alexeditor

The Mormons and Orthodox Christians are certain notable as groups. But is their position on birth control notable? I was under the impression they had the same views as Protestant Christians.

Quiverfull as a religious movement is small, and as a group it may not be notable. But its position on birth control is odd enough to merit mention when discussing "religious and cultural views" about fertility regulation. It seems incomplete to discuss Christian views on family planning without any mention at all that some Christian groups believe all family planning is wrong.

There are other Christian groups opposed to family planning (such as the Amish). Would Alexeditor (or other editors) be opposed to a sentence such as "some Christian groups oppose all forms of family planning, including NFP"? So that the viewpoint is mentioned, but specific sects are not? Lyrl _Contribs 00:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The Mormons do allow Contracpetion; the various Orthodox Churches of the world are divided on the matter as to the acceptability of contraception. Some teach that any contraceptive method that doesn't hurt an already concieved foetus is acceptable, other believe that contraception is unacceptable. Orthodoxy is a major world faith which is not even receiving a mention.

You raise a good point regarding the amish, and I could see some mention there under Protestantism. However, I wouldn't put it as it was in the old version where it was described as opposition to the movement's official teaching; as there is no one official "Protestant Teaching" on this issue as there is in the Catholic Church.

The main issue I had with the previous version was the mention of Catholic and Protestant disagreement side by side without any mention of scale, as you have on one hand near uniformity(as with Protestantism), whereas on the Catholic side you likely have a majority disagreeging with the official position. An equivalent thing would be if it were written in an article on the Israeli-Arab conflict: "Some Arabs believe Israel should give up control of East Jerusalem. Some Jews also believe this". That would be technically true, but without any mention of scale it would also be horribly misleading....

- Alexeditor

Sex education and birth control

Thanks, Lyrl. That's a much better revision, and my complaints are put to rest.

As an aside, is anyone else having trouble saving revisions? I've lost two saves--including this one--in two days. May just be a Mac thing or something else specific to me, but I'm asking anyway. --BCSWowbagger 03:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Ease of using NFP

I moved this section here from the article:Many Catholic couples praise the ease, convenience, and low cost of NFP, noting that the woman's period of fertilization is never more than five days a month at the very worst. Such couples often note further that even during those five days of fertilization, couples are free (even by church teaching) to enjoy each other's bodies without sexual intercourse.

I am a practitioner of fertility awareness (NFP for non-Catholics, basically), and while I love the method, that "five days a month at the very worst" is absolutely false. Normal is eight to ten days fertile days per cycle. Stress, premenopause, breastfeeding, and certain hormonal disorders can greatly increase that number. If a woman practicing NFP is only identifying five fertile days a cycle, she is at high risk of unplanned pregnancy. This is further discussed (with references) in the fertility awareness and natural family planning articles.

Secondly, for observant Catholics, orgasmic acts outside of intercourse are considered sins. That last sentence of the quoted section is completely and totally misleading. This is discussed (with reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church) in the Christian views on contraception article. Lyrl _Contribs 13:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

As a practicing Catholic, I can say that you are absolutely correct. I tagged it with {fact} in case anyone wanted to contest my eventual deletion. So I agree with your removal. --BCSWowbagger 19:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Religious discussion in main article

As the main article size was 36K and growing, I have created a new article titled Religious views on birth control. As suggested in , I have created a summary in this article of what the section held. Lengthy religious viewpoints are not appropriate for this page; this article exists primarily to provide descriptions of different types of birth control. Please discuss. Joie de Vivre 16:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Lyrl has not responded to my above comment, but has now reinstated the long-winded discussion of religious (mainly Christian) views on birth control (article size now 36K), has removed the mention of US officials blocking access to birth control on the grounds of their religious beliefs, and has reinstated the inclusion of Natural Family Planning as a distinct birth control method (when in fact it can better be described as a Catholic stamp of approval on methods that were already mentioned in the article). These revisions are NPOV. Please discuss. Joie de Vivre 21:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I feel the discussion on NFP is important, but I admit where to include it is problematic. It isn't a specific method of birth control, but a collection of methods. But FA isn't one specific method either, but a class of methods. Maybe we can find a better way to include the info, but reducing the content to one sentence is not helpful at all. I'm not sure how I feel about all this content forking. It was proposed that the Christian views on contraception page be split up (even though there is no size warning), and now we are forking off the religious views into its own article. I just don't think we are at the point where we need a dozen different articles covering the same topic from different POVs. Maybe having one article on the religious views can work, and possibly also keeping the Christian views article, but I'd strongly suggest working on those two before creating any more forks (and to address the relevent concern, a summary needs to take the place of the longer content that has been forked out, per policy, if we decide to keep the forks).--Andrew c 21:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The article size guideline is only for readability, not for precise size, and should be considered on a case by case basis. The guideline also only applies to the main body of the text, not references, external links, infoboxes, etc. - excluding those things brings this article below the old technical limit of 32K. Size alone is not a reason to move content from this article. See the condom article, for example, at 56K - and no one there is suggesting content needs to be forked.

I also feel NFP needs to be discussed on this page. The current single sentence misrepresents the use of the term, by implying anyone who uses FA is also an NFP user - when in fact the abstinence requirement of NFP is very important. The single sentence also fails to let readers know that LAM is also included in the NFP umbrella. And it implies that the Rhythm Method is considered a type of FA - a classification that is highly controversial, as teachers of highly effective observational FA methods want nothing to do with the notorious Rhythm.

The topic of this article is not limited to descriptions of methods - it also includes history of the concept of birth regulation, for example. I view religious attitudes toward birth control as a valid topic. As Andrew pointed out, there needs to be a summary of any content that is forked. Shortening the summary is fine, but removing it altogether does not help the article.

The section on US government officials is highly POV - it implies that a majority of pro-life politicians oppose birth control and all forms of sex education. Opposition to all birth control is actually a tiny minority in the pro-life movement. The sex ed debate is also much more complex than a yes/no question as presented in this paragraph, and besides, should be addressed in the main article and the specific "Birth control education" subsection, not in a section on government officials. The paragraph also fails to mention that pro-choice activists work not only against government regulation, but also for government support, in the form of paying for abortions for destitute women, for example. Lyrl _Contribs 22:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd hardly say that Mr. de Vivre's waiting a mere five hours for a response--after deleting a large section without a consensus in a relatively controversial article--is fair to Lyrl. I motion that the previous content be reinstated until a positive consensus is established against the NFP passage. Further comment from me will come later... not on Mr. de Vivre's tight timetable. --BCSWowbagger 01:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I second BCSWowbagger's motion. CyberAnth 02:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

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