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Rogue state

None of the sources in article rogue state claim that the United States has classified Rhodesia and South Africa as a rogue state. The sources refer sanctions that these countries experienced during the Cold War. The User:Gregorius deretius, who added such information, had already been rolled back several times in the past: 1, 2, 3. I ask that the page go back to the previous version of the editions of Gregorius deretius because it is a case of WP: SYNTHESIS.--201.1.43.76 (talk) 17:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Due to the number of sanctions that these countries recieved and some facts like the development of south africa's nuclear program, South africa and Rhodesia's gross human rights violations and their poor relationship with the United States,Both countries fit in the category of rogue states . ([[User talk:Gregorius Deretius|talk)16:00, 08 January 2018 (UTC)

@Gregorius Deretius: your opinion that these facts about the two countries means they are or were "rogue states" is, I'm afraid, not useful. It is, as the IP user has stated above, a clear violation of Misplaced Pages policies on original research. In order to justify inclusion of these countries, you can't just give us reasons why you think they qualify. You need to provide a reliable, secondary source which uses that term and cite that usage. Please read, understand, and follow the no original research policy before adding any rogue state examples. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:44, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

None of the sources cited in the text mention that South Africa and Rhodesia have ever been classified as "rogue states". This information is only a personal conclusion of the user, not being supported by the sources.--201.1.43.76 (talk) 20:37, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

We cannot say that the U.S. considered a state to be a rogue state unless we have sources that say exactly that. Besides, how could the U.S. consider Rhodesia to be a rogue state when it did not recognize the state of Rhodesia? TFD (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

I do think we can say Rhodesia was regarded as a rogue state (US designation aside) - in fact, I think it pretty much is the defining example in the modern era.... See - Beck, Martin, and Johannes Gerschewski. "On the Fringes of the International Community: The Making and Survival of" Rogue States"." Sicherheit und Frieden (S+ F)/Security and Peace (2009): 84-90., , .Icewhiz (talk) 07:48, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

The format of the article is to say who used the term, when, and why. That should be the precondition for inclusion. Pincrete (talk) 21:28, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Extremely clear: If no reliable source said it, it cannot be added. Manelolo (talk) 08:18, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Really new new religious movements

This discussion tangentially relates to a current existing discussion at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Concerns about Church of Satan POV and messy RfC at Talk:The Satanic Temple. One of the issues involved in that discussion is whether a group which originated in about 2012, which is more recent than any of the reference books I checked on in gathering the data for List of new religious movements, can be counted as a new religious movement in its own right. Right now, we have one source which counts Satanism as an NRM, and this group is in a sense a Satanist group, but most of the other entries in the reference works I used in generating the list are for specific denominations. This question may not be particularly important in this particular instance, but there may well be others which arise in the future. Anyway, thoughts on whether a religious group too new to be included in available reference works on new religious movements can be counted as one? John Carter (talk) 20:29, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

I think making that distinction here falls into OR and we should hold off until the researchers and academics of the subject weigh in. In my understanding a group would need to consider themselves a religion in order to be a NRM, and I remain unconvinced that this group thinks they are a new religion. Yes there are some quotes saying effectively "we are a real religion" but I think those statements were made in the context of discussing Satanism, not claiming to be a new and distinct religion. Additionally it's problematic because many statements made by this group can be contradicted by other statements also made by the group so it's unclear where they actually stand on things today, and how that will impact their position tomorrow. They claimed to be literal devil worshipers in 2013 for example, only changing the position to be atheistic in 2014. Add to that the fact that the primary spokesperson for the group has a long history prior to this group's existence with other Satanist groups, I suspect if he was attempting to start a new religion all together rather than just riff on established Satanism there would be no question about it. I'm clear that other editors disagree with me on some of this but everything I've referenced in the ongoing discussion is well documented. Anyway, as Misplaced Pages is currently the only non-press source claiming they are a religion, and all academics who have discussed them do so in the context of them being an organization, classifying them as a NRM seems premature. Seanbonner (talk) 12:11, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I think it is kind of obvious that you've never actually looked at the List of new religious movements or at much of the literature involved. One of the most obvious exceptions to your understanding is Freemasonry and at least a few of the other groups included like Opus Dei and at least some of the groups in the Charismatic movement are also groups which exist specifically and exclusively within individual denominations. John Carter (talk) 18:22, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I think it's poor judgement to make accusations about what someone may or may not be familiar with. I use my real name here, it's not hard to easily learn that I've been involved in public discussions around Satanism for decades and New Religious Moments as they relate to Satanism for the last several years. I'm not claiming to be an expert in NRMs, as I said "In my understanding" which could be incorrect and I'd welcome the chance to learn something. I don't pretend to be the end all be all knowledgeable source, however I do want the math to add up and I know what I'm talking about in relation to Satanism and can point to citations to support every position I've taken. I'm in no way versed on the exhaustive reach of Christian denominations, however, again from what I understand they all share the same source material, if there's a Christian denomination that doesn't reference The Holy Bible I'm unaware of it and happy to be corrected. As Faxneld notes on page 74 of Contemporary Esotericism "An enduring tradition of Satanism was initiated in 1966 when Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan" so when someone who for at least a decade was very publicly associated with the Church of Satan announces a new organization of Satanists who don't recognize LaVey or his writings and claim to be multi-generational theists that's curious to me, and even more so when a year later they switch lanes, convert to atheism (like LaVey's Satanism) and say the theism thing was just a joke. I want to understand how that fits into the bigger picture and discuss it correctly. The recent proposal that this group is it's own religion outside of existing Satanism (that I vocally disagreed with at the time but have come around on) seems to be to be the least conflicted route and worth exploring, but in order to do that we need to have the correct language, I don't think it's fair or appropriate that my observation that calling two different religions who have different source material the exact same thing might be confusing is somehow biased or out of line. I want the article to be the most accurate it can be, dumping everything that anyone called "satanic" into one muddy bucket is not accurate and was exactly the situation prior to 1966 which LaVey sought to rectify by creating a defined religion around the term. Seanbonner (talk) 22:49, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

You seem to be saying in the above that possibly to your eyes LaVey's definition should somehow be binding on others. That would be rather similar to saying that the Catholic Church's definition of what is and is not acceptable as defining aspects of Christianity must be accepted by all other purportedly Christian groups. I doubt very many people here would support such thinking. John Carter (talk) 00:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

That's not what I said at all, please reread. Seanbonner (talk) 02:14, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

To any editors coming to this discussion who aren't familiar with the controversy regarding what is or is not an NRM, we basically agreed some time before I assembled the list of NRMs that Misplaced Pages would describe something as an NRM if one or more of the reference works in the field, including those used to assemble and reference that list in it's current format, described it as such. The term itself is apparently a politically correct alternative for "cult". It includes several groups like Erhard Seminars Training which do not remotely call themselves religious. The specific group in question is newer than the reference works consulted, but has a great deal of significant factors which it has in common with those groups listed. John Carter (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

How to rectify what "age of consent" means re:Texas?

@Fabrickator: Defining what age of consent for Texas is tricky because there is a law prohibiting sexual activity with those under 17 but there is also a law against inducement of sexual conduct from someone under 18 (one does not need to be doing this for a performance). Effectively that makes the 18 the minimum age in which the person's partner won't be prosecuted for a felony; the question is whether that should be interpreted as the "age of consent" using Misplaced Pages's definition of age of consent in that article (and stating directly that it is 18), or whether doing so is Original Research and therefore the article can't clearly define an age of consent for Texas.

• The Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS), the statewide law enforcement agency, considers the age of consent to be 18
• The court case Ex parte Fujisaka, 472 S.W.3d 792, 800, 801 (Tex. Ct. App. 2015), which considered both laws stated above, ruled that the age of consent was 17

Articles in the popular media usually state the age of consent in Texas is 17.

To quote User:John M Baker:

• " The standard legal dictionary in the United States is Black's Law Dictionary (10th ed. 2014). Here's its definition of "age of consent": "The age, usu. defined by statute as 16 years, at which a person is legally capable of agreeing to marriage (without parental consent) or to sexual intercourse. • If a person over the age of consent has sexual intercourse with a person under the age of consent, the older person may be prosecuted for statutory rape regardless of whether the younger person consented to the act. See statutory rape under RAPE (2); JAILBAIT." In other words, "age of consent" traditionally is closely associated with statutory rape (or ability to contract marriage, but that is not what is being discussed here).

   The problem is that people don't really care all that much whether engaging in sex with someone under a certain age will result in prosecution for statutory rape, as opposed to prosecution for some other felony; if it's a serious crime, it's a serious crime. Our articles probably should clarify this in some standardized way, although that seems like it would be a substantial job. John M Baker"

In Talk:Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#Please_fix_Texas_on_the_map there is a question. Do we:

• definitely state that the age of consent is 18, like in this edit
• state the two laws with different ages and state the different interpretations of age of consent from Texas government organs (both DPS and Ex parte Fujisaka) without definitively giving an age of consent for Texas in this edit?

How do you convey useful information while avoiding original research? WhisperToMe (talk) 10:47, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

I suggest addressing (and resolving) the question about how "age of consent" is to be defined prior to addressing the other questions. Until the issue of what is to be meant by "age of consent" is settled, it will just make for a confusing discussion as to what should be specified as the "age of consent" in a particular state. Fabrickator (talk) 02:22, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

In that case I'm partial to using Black's Law Dictionary (10th ed. 2014), at least in relation to the US, but I would like to also find a written published RS that states, in John Baker's words, "people don't really care all that much whether engaging in sex with someone under a certain age will result in prosecution for statutory rape, as opposed to prosecution for some other felony; if it's a serious crime, it's a serious crime." ( I would like to add that being put on a sex offender list versus being absent from one would differentiate felonies) WhisperToMe (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Black's Law Dictionary? I don't know if we need such a reference, as these words have a "plain language" meaning: In any given state, the age of sexual consent is the youngest age at which the law provides for a distinction between consensual and non-consensual sex. Otherwise, you would have a definition in which the state would be in the position of recognizing, by law, that a person under the age of consent is nevertheless able to give consent. Fabrickator (talk) 06:24, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

As an FYI for all editors I want to supply the Merriam Webster's definitions which match "man on the street" ones.

• https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/age%20of%20consent - "the age at which one is legally competent to give consent especially to marriage or to sexual intercourse " the law dictionary states "see also statutory rape — compare emancipation, legal age"
• https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statutory%20rape - "sexual intercourse with a person who is below the statutory age of consent"

WhisperToMe (talk) 14:06, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

I think this issue needs to be framed better. The question is really whether the page in question (and presumably, other "age of consent" pages) should be about something which the phrase "age of consent" means according to some third-party source, or whether it should be about something else. Does it matter what a judge calls out as the "age of consent" in a particular statute, when that actually isn't the criteria for how to determine guilt, is it helpful to have a "common law" definition that explains the general concept, when that's not actually consistent with modern statutory constructs, would a survey of the general public understanding of the "age of consent" resolve this issue for us, or should the focus be on what the needs are in order for this page to provide the information that's actually going to address the questions people who come to this page are most likely to have?

The issue that you are raising is the notion that there is some kind of problem with using a specialized definition if we do not have a reliable source for that definition, as you believe that otherwise, it would require "original research" to use some unsourced definition, therfore being in conflict with Misplaced Pages policy.

There seems to be a secondary issue as to how such a specialized definition would be presented. I don't think there's much to object to in putting this definition in words, but I would argue that "everybody else" really doesn't seem to have a problem, as they are able to figure this out from the context that the subject of the page is really about whether one may run afoul of the law by having consensual sex with persons under a particular age . Fabrickator (talk) 17:12, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

In hopes of salvaging something from this NOR discussion, would any "third parties" care to address the issue of whether providing a specialized definition requires a source? In other words, if a definition is provided indicating how a term is used within a Misplaced Pages article, is it sufficient to provide the definintion of the term, or must the definition that is used within the article come from a reliable source? Fabrickator (talk) 02:12, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Artist's impressions

I've just come across File:Brontoscorpio.png in Brontoscorpio. While it's a great image, I'm unsure whether it is appropriate for us to include, as the only specimen of this species is one 10cm piece. The original description estimated it's size from that, but the illustration is not based on anything previously published, which in my opinion makes it OR. What do you think? SmartSE (talk) 10:55, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, I find little, in the literature, about being a marine species, as the illustration seems to suggest. This seems to discuss it in the context of terrestrial species. I will boldy remove.--cyclopia 14:50, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Black-eyed children and supposed Iroquois legends: pure speculation

An IP has twice tried to add a supposed race of evil black-eyed children in their tribe's mythology to this article, speculating that the person who made this up out of whole cloth in Texas must have heard of this New York State tribe's similarly-labeled beings. I don't want to edit war, but WP:OR is clearly relevant here, as is WP:RS. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:28, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Calculation of vote share in an election

An editor has complained about this sentence in Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly election, 1987:

However, the official vote count does establish that the MUF polled 31% of the votes cast in the Valley.

[note 1}: The Muslim United Front polled 470,580 votes by the official count, out of 1,477,250 votes cast in the Valley, making it roughly 31%.

References

1. Hussain, Masood (23 March 2016), "MUFfed", Kashmir Life, retrieved 17 February 2018
2. Statistical Report on the General Election, 1987, Election Commission of India, New Delhi.

The complaint was:

It gets worse in that there is added WP:SYNTHESIS between (even worse) WP:SECONDARY and WP:PRIMARY sources. See this edit where you have synthesized content between a secondary source and an official election commission paper.

What is your view? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Besides the lack of reliability (this was a rigged election after all) of the electoral commission report, it is a WP:PRIMARY source. Challenging peer reviewed secondary sources such as the scholar Bose with primary material constitutes WP:OR.

There are also too many contradictions between the two sources given to do an accurate calculation. An example is that the first source Kautilya3 used said the NC got 713232 votes but the second source Kautilya3 used shows that the NC got 857830 votes. So with such a contradiction between both its not possible to do an accurate mathematical calculation using both materials. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 00:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Contradicting "scholar Bose" is not the issue being raised here. What is raised is your claim that calculating vote share constitutes WP:SYNTHESIS. I have referred you to WP:CALC and WP:SYNTHNOT, but you have apparently ignored them. The first source (a journalist) did not go and count the votes himself. He is obviously using the election commission data and summarising it as relevant to the issues discussed. The supposed contradiction between the two sources is your misunderstanding. The first source is summarising the data for the Kashmir Valley. The Election Commission is summarising it for the whole State. The two numbers will be obviously different. But, once again, this has no impact on your claim, which is basically an attempt to defeat WP:CALC and WP:SYNTHNOT.

The "scholar Bose" made a statement of fact. Whether that statement is correct or not is independently verifiable. Facts do not change according to scholars. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

By the way, the 31% figure is given in the first source itself. It is written as "30.96 percent of the popular vote". But the journalist is not being careful with the wording. It should be explicated that it is the "30.96 percent of the popular vote in the Valley". For that purpose, we are cross-checking with the Election Commission report. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Appeasement, fascism, economics

We could use some new voices in the debate at Talk:Appeasement. Specifically I've proposed a section on economic appeasement in the 1930s, and we are voting on whether it is OR or not:

Numerous scholars have explored the trade aspects of appeasement. Britain's commercial relationship with Germany was steady throughout the 1930s, extending even beyond the invasion of Prague. Germany was, after India, Britain’s largest exporter. "In consequence," The Economist notes, "the German war machine continued to be fueled with oil and armed with metals from British sources" up until the declaration of war in September 1939. It has been argued that trade in strategic materials with the Nazis was necessary for Britain's rearmament.

Even as appeasement seemed to collapse in the aftermath of Kristalnacht, economic appeasement escalated. In January 1939, London and Berlin representatives helped negotiate an Anglo-German coal cartel. A major trade conference commenced in Dusseldorf that March, although government participation was disrupted by the Prague crisis. The Federation of British Industries and other trade groups proceeded with the meetings nonetheless. By the eve of the war, the two countries had 133 trade agreements in effect.

The American policy of neutrality at this time could sometimes lapse into appeasement. This was particularly true economically; with no serious sanctions on the rising Axis powers until 1941, top US firms like IBM and General Motors were extremely active in Nazi Germany for years, and exchange controls ensured that most of their profits were cycled back into the country, thereby strengthening Hitler's regime. This also meant that Nazi-associated businesses like IG Farben and Thyssen industries did extensive dealings with elite US banks like Brown Brothers Harriman and Union Banking Corporation up through the outbreak of the war. With the knowledge of the US government, the American film industry catered consciously to Germany. Most major Hollywood studios worked directly with the German Consul Georg Gyssling up until 1940 to censor films for anti-Nazi or pro-Jewish sentiment, even for versions distributed outside of Germany.

It's been argued by some there that the theory of economic appeasement isn't widely accepted, however, it's actually well established:

The question of economic appeasement, first broached by Gilbert and Gott, has also re-emerged as a focus for study. Scott Newton attempted “to relate appeasement to the domestic politico-economic background from which it was developed,” ...(74. Scott Newton, Profits of Peace: The Political Economy of Anglo-German Appeasement (Oxford, 1996), pp. 3–6.)

In a somewhat similar vein, Neil Forbes explored Anglo–German economic and financial relations in the 1930s. The morality of conducting peacetime trade with dictatorships was set aside as was the argument that British business abetted, or was sympathetic to, Nazism. I... 75 (75. Neil Forbes, Doing Business with Nazi Germany: Britain's Economic and Financial Relations with Germany, 1931–1939 (London, 2000), pp. 225–226.) Economic appeasement on a broader canvas but with similar conclusions is examined in Paul N. Hehn, A Low Dishonest Decade: The Great Powers, Eastern Europe, and the Economic Origins of World War II, 1930–1941 (London, 2002).

- "Appeasement: Before and After Revisionism" Sidney Aster," Diplomacy & Statecraft Vol. 19, Iss. 3, 2008

-GPRamirez5 (talk) 14:25, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

1. Staff (15 March 2001) "Trading with evil" (book reviews) The Economist
2. C A MacDonaldm United States Britain And Appeasement 1936–1939 (Springer, 1981), pp, 130–37
3. Frank McDonough, Neville Chamberlain, Appeasement, and the British Road to War, pp. 145–48
4. William E. Leuchtenburg, "Franklin D. Roosevelt: Foreign Affairs" The Miller Center, University of Virginia
5. Geoffrey Jones, "Firms and Global Capitalism" in The Cambridge History of Capitalism Volume 2, Larry Neal et al, eds. (Cambridge University Press, 2014), pp. 180–86
6. Adam LeBor, Tower of Basel: The Shadowy History of the Secret Bank that Runs the World (Public Affairs, 2014), Chapter Nine
7. The Oxford History of World Cinema edited by Geoffrey Nowell-Smith (Oxford University Press, 1997), p.245
8. Anthony Quinn, "The Collaboration: Hollywood's Pact with Hitler by Ben Urwand – review", The Guardian, October 16, 2013

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