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Misplaced Pages talk Wheel war 1  · 2  · 3  · 4  · * 5 Misplaced Pages talk Wheel war/Proposal 1

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Should one of the expectations of administrators be to have email enabled?

I'd like to see that as a requirement. Doug Weller talk 19:00, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

• I agree. Totally. I suppose it would be OK to temporarily disable one's e-mail during a wikibreak, but otherwise, users should be able to e-mail all admins. Bishonen | talk 19:54, 24 January 2018 (UTC).
• Best practice, yes, required? No. My email is enabled (and I don't think I ever had it disabled when I wasn't an admin), but there may be valid privacy and harassment reasons why an admin does not want email enabled. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:01, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• No, instead of getting the message that the admin's email is disabled, and knowing to move on to another admin / process / etc, you would end up with emails falling off into the void (either switching to a bs email address, or filtering mail from wikipedia most likely). I agree with Tony - it is a best practice. SQL 20:49, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
• I'm an admin. My email is enabled, and that is only for the situation where I forget my password (it has happened). If anybody else emails me, I usually ignore the email, so it does fall off into the void in a sense. My reason is that I believe in openness, so I discuss Misplaced Pages matters on-wiki, the only exception being at organised meetups such as m:Meetup/Oxford/57. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

  I agree with this.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:12, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, this should be a requirement per the general sense of WP:ADMINACCT which requires that admins be contactable. Some issues might be sensitive, such as BLP enforcement, and so open discussion on talk pages might be considered inappropriate. There then needs to be a private communication channel and email seems to be the standard alternative. Andrew D. (talk) 08:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Yes. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:07, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, a requirement. The question of where one replies (per RedRose64 above) is actually distinct to the question asked. All admins should have email enabled in the spirit of making oneself openly communicable, particularly so as not to deter editors from sending private info. Or indeed, editors who just do not want to be seen asking a certain question  :) However, per RedRose— with whom I agree—this does not automatically mean one is entitled to a reply, and the choice to do so, or to otherwise reply publicly, is very much still reserved to the admin. >SerialNumber54129 09:48, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  Actually, administrators are not really authorised to deal with private info, and I was always uncomfortable when I was sent pieces of private information. I would say if issues can not be discussed onwiki, they should be sent to WP:OTRS or even WP:OVERSIGHT if needed.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  But there is not a single quality called privacy, and a thing that is not oversightable may still be private. I'd like to think that admins were willing to save editors' good faith embarrassment if they had the ability to. >SerialNumber54129 11:03, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• I wonder whether it's plausible to assume that everyone can have a secure email address. I also think that since the community has no effective means to monitor email usage (all what we can do is to ask a checkuser if user X sent an email at date Y, or take Z's word at face value without firm proof), there is more potential for abuse there than with an user talk page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Best practice, yes - requirement, no. If admins don't want to be bothered by users outside the time they have allotted to working here, they should be able to choose so. There is no requirement at RFA that says admins have to be available outside Misplaced Pages. What's next, requiring admins to be active on IRC? As Ymblanter points out, there are already processes to handle certain matters, like OTRS and OS and we should encourage people to send privacy-relevant requests there instead of some random admin who might not even be active at that time. Regards SoWhy 10:35, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  Just to clarify, that's nothing in the proposal that says anything about doing unpaid overtime, or out of hours work. If an admin is daft enough, though, to use a main email a/c, rather than a single use, generic <username-enwp@client.tld> than that is, absolutely and irreparably, their lookout. >SerialNumber54129 11:03, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  It's all unpaid overtime... ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  No, if an admin doesn't want to deal with wikimatters off wikipedia they should be able to have this separation. There are plenty of admins who are fine with this and very few matters can't be dealt with on talk pages. For cases where users are prevented from sending emails or blocked from their talk, there is usually a reason and UTRS exists. (my email is on but I ignore most emails or reply on wiki) Spartaz 12:40, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• No. Recommended best practice perhaps, but not a requirement. If an admin only wants to be contacted on-wiki, that should be their right. Users shouldn't be contacting admins about urgent or private matters anyway, we have official emails for those things. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 12:46, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• No, administrators should not be required to have email enabled. To some extent, it would go against Wikimedia's privacy policy ("If you do create an account, you do not need to give us your name or email address"). It's a voluntary service; and to add to this, for those administrators who, of their own choice, have emails enabled, there is no (and there should be no) further requirement that they need to answer via emails to received emails. Lourdes 12:48, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• What SoWhy said. Best practice, and to be encouraged, but not required. We should encourage as much to be on-Wiki as possible, and email certainly encourages the spreading of personal information. There's no guarantee that email would be more responsive anyway — plenty of folks have non-personal emails for privacy reasons, and as someone recently more active, it's easy to miss emails for months/years. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Of course not, best practice maybe, but certainly not required. I have mine enabled but as someone above mentioned, that is mostly for password reasons. There is pretty much nothing as an individual admin that I would deal with through email that cannot be done on a talk page. Anything that needs privacy can go to OTRS etc. -DJSasso (talk) 13:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• As Tony says above, best practice, yes, requirement, no. There are privacy-respecting venues that can be used for material that can't go on talk. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:56, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• No. All the good arguments have been taken already, so I'll just throw my weight behind Lourdes, SoWhy, Tony and others. Best practice, but not a requirement. We are volunteers, after all... *goes off to check Misplaced Pages email inbox for the eighth time today... 14:01, 25 January 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yunshui (talk • contribs)
  • Just because all the good arguments are already gone that's no reason to hide your name from us as well Regards SoWhy 14:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• No. Echoing most of the others, it's a good idea, especially for password recovery - but requiring it "to be enabled", no. I would not expect them to be 'required' to actually read it even if it were enabled. Should this conversation result in a "yes", I think it should be "required" that anyone wanting to email an admin under a communications expectation also be required to contact them publicly (by leaving a talk page message such as {{ygm}}) as email delivery (and echo notifications) can be unreliable. — xaosflux 14:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Interestingly enough, I note that, unless I am missing something WP:ADMIN mentions communication, only in "failure to communicate" (are we uncommunicative about communication?). So perhaps all these ways of communicating about admin-type things should be added in a section, 'Communication with Admins'. Perhaps I am reading more into this but given Doug started this, is this prompted by an admin-to-admin communication issue? If so the communication section I suggest should address that, too. (I also, think, that if an admin is the type that regularly ignores e-mails, as many people are, it's really better if it's shut off, or they make that rather clear, somehow). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:52, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Agree with it as a best practice but not a hard requirement. If private information that can’t be shared on-wiki is involved, users should be contacting the Functionaries, not individual admins. We should make that clear instead. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• It should not be a requirement. No admin needs to be "on call" when off-wiki. There's nothing I can do that one of the admins on WP:ANI or WP:AN couldn't handle. I personally have it enabled, but if anyone has been sending me e-mails I have definitely missed them.--Aervanath (talk) 14:12, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I just noticed the standard AE block template in Twinkle (which I'm thinking most admins use) has this text: "You may also appeal directly to me (by email), before or instead of appealing on your talk page." The template itself has an option to turn that wording off but that's not the default nor can it be adjusted through Twinkle. There's no time limit on when an appeal can be initiated so admins using this specific block template should be aware that there is an expectation they'll be reachable by email. --NeilN 05:26, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
• Some things are best handled by email, most things are best handled on wiki. My email is enabled, I get a trickle of email, almost all perfectly OK. But I'm a bloke. I can understand some of our female admins not enabling email. More generally are we addressing a problem here or being bureaucratic for the sake of it? Do we have regular backlogs anywhere that involves emailing admins? ϢereSpielChequers 18:12, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
• I have email enabled, and I've gotten exactly zero of them since I became an admin last September. Don't know if there's a pressing need for email to be enabled. ansh666 18:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
• Not sure I would force admin to enable email, but would strongly request it. There are plenty of times when an editor or another admin need to contact an admin privately (WP:BEANS, WP:HARASS, etc) and best practice is for it to be enabled. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:19, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

RFC: Slight tweak to lengthy inactivity policy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In the case of admins who have not actively used their tools for a prolonged period, should they still be granted two years to simply ask for them back if they are removed for inactivity? Beeblebrox (talk) 22:59, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

• No This occured to me when looking over Misplaced Pages:Inactive administrators/2017. There are numerous admins there who went totally inactive in 2016 after not taking any administrative action for a prolonged period prior to that: In nine cases, there was no tool use for between five and ten years, five cases where the user had not used their tools in over ten years, and one very extreme case of an admin who got the tools in 2004, never used them even one time, and hadn’t actually spoken to another user on any sort of talk page in 12 years.

And yet, in all of these cases current policy grants them two additional years in which all they need do is ask, and they will get their tools back. Re-granting the tools is the purview of the bureaucrats, who aren’t given much leeway to bend the rules, so if one or more of these admins were to ask for their tools back anytime in the next two years, they would be compelled to do so. This just can’t be the right way of doing this.

I would therefore propose that any admin who has not used their tools in five years and is subsequently desysopped for total inactivity would no longer be able to simply ask for them back, and would need to pass a new RFA to regain the tools and that wording to this effect be added to the administrative policy at Misplaced Pages:Administrators#Lengthy inactivity.

The point of granting advanced permissions is not to reward users, but to give them what they need to help maintain the encyclopedia. If they aren’t doing that, they aren’t actually admins, and adminship in not a trophy. This would probably only involve a few admins each year, probably less each year, it will have no effect on any users who make at least one edit per year, so it’s still extremely lenient. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:12, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

• The problem with this is that not all admin tool use and other actions are logged, for example viewing deleted revisions or closing move discussions. We simply can't know from the logs whether or not someone is actively using the tools or not. It's similar to the issue that used to pop up with Useight's crat bit; they didn't make a single edit from their main account for five years (and thus didn't make any logged admin/crat actions), but contributed to crat chats. Crats do have an activity requirement, but their activity is much better defined and more easily determined. ansh666 23:57, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

  Agreed, not all admin actions are logged. But if you have not used the tools in five years or more and haven’t made an edit of any kind in over a year, you clearly aren’t doing admin work at all. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

• No - I would generally agree that admins should be admins and non-admins should be non-admins - none of the "admin without the tools" stuff that happens when it's a lifetime trophy for passing RfA rather than a set of technical buttons you have access to. If adminship is no big deal, then it should be easy to both assign and remove adminship from an account. To that end, I agree with the proposer; if an admin is removed for inactivity then they should no longer be an admin, and not be eligible to get the tools back after asking nicely on BN. As for the non-logged actions argument, our standard for activity is logged actions. It's a reasonable standard, and because we can't measure non-logged actions, I don't see why we should consider them. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 05:24, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
• (Perhaps a symbolic) No I suspect that a lot of barely-active admins that would likely be affected by this proposal will come out of the woodwork and mysteriously oppose this proposal for exactly the reasons Ajraddatz describes above, so I don't think this will pass. But I do support this change. --Rschen7754 05:39, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment The proposal should also specify whether admins who voluntarily resigned not under a cloud can ask the tools back without an RFA and during which period this could happen. Otherwise, if it passes, it might lead to inconsistencies.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:57, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
• Neither. I understand where the OP comes from but I also agree with Ansh666's valid argument that logged actions is a bad measurement in these cases because some admin work can be done without using the buttons, yet it's still admin work. As such, I would propose that instead of a hard and fast rule, we give crats some discretion whether to grant such resysop requests in edge cases where no admin-related activity took place. A possible wording could be: for any admin who has not used their tools in five years and is subsequently desysopped for total inactivity, bureaucrats should usually not regrant the tools upon request. That leaves some discretion for crats to regrant the tools if the requesting user can demonstrate that they worked in any admin-related way, even without use of the tools per se. Regards SoWhy 07:10, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
• No somebody who hasn't used their tools for that length of time is likely to be out of step with the community on how best to use them. Regarding the point that admins can do admin work without making logged actions, this is technically true but I don't think it would happen much in practice. Such an admin would have to spend their admin time viewing deleted pages, editing protected pages and closing discussions with results requiring no admin action (e.g. closing AfDs but never as Delete because that would be a logged action). I think it's a bit of a stretch to imagine an admin doing this type of thing for five years but never doing anything that generates a logged action. Hut 8.5 07:49, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  Agreed. And completely ignoring non-logged actions, I think it's reasonable to expect admins to perform one logged action every five years. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 08:00, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  Exactly. This is not targeted at semi-active admins who only use their tools rarely, or anyone who makes at least one edit of any kind at least once a year. This would still be an extremely lenient policy, we’d just be closing a tiny loophole. No admin who is the least bit active in any way will be affected by it. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:38, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  @Beeblebrox: Who has slipped through this "loophole"? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  It's not hard to find people who would be affected by this. This admin recently desysopped for inactivity has one admin action ever (unilaterally overturning the result of an AfD in 2007). This one has also used the admin tools exactly once (a U1 userspace deletion in 2013). Both of those people would qualify to have admin tools restored on request at the moment. Hut 8.5 22:15, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  Plus the other fifteen cases I mentioned in the opening statement. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:23, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  Interesting that Grandiose should be picked out, his RfA was one of the few that I went straight in with a support for, so I was surprised a few days ago when this was sent out. When he went for RfA, I believe that he was a final-year student at Oxford University, so I expect that real life got in the way. Jarry1250 (talk · contribs) may be able to enlighten us here. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:06, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

  I'm not going to go digging to see if it's actually happened before, but I think it could be plausible - for example someone who only uses their admin tools to scour deleted pages for valid citations to (god forbid) build other articles. So I do support this proposal in general, but I think that it shouldn't be a completely absolute rule. FWIW WP:IAR should cover it, but crats do tend to have a reputation of doing things by the letter. ansh666 21:09, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  It’s not just their reputation, it is explicitly what the community expects of them, you basically can’t invoke IAR for ‘crat actions, which is exactly why I made this proposal, so they have a rule they can point to that specifically says what they should do in these circumstances. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:57, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

  (edit conflict)That would be absolutely fine as long as they make at least one edit every two years. Hut 8.5 22:15, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

• I think some care needs to be made for non-logged actions, such as editing through protection, a necessary admin function for people who work maintaining (for example) protected templates or the main page; they may appear to have not used their tools when in actuality they use them every day; even if they go many years without logging a block or a protection or a deletion. --Jayron32 03:50, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
• Note, we have a very big list at INACTIVE (Special:PermaLink/824245032) right now, some examples of rather inactive for a long time. — xaosflux 05:00, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose any activity requirements. The more active admins the better, and current inactive admins are potential future active admins. Κσυπ Cyp   10:54, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

You do know we already have activity requirements and have for some years now? This is just a minor tweak to the existing requirements, if you are opposed to the very idea that we have any standards that is a seperate discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Oppose both the proposed requirement tweak and the existing requirements, although only the former is relevant to this particular discussion. Κσυπ Cyp   06:56, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, change goes into a wrong and unhelpful direction. The proposal makes it harder for people who have been admins to become admins again. What we need is to make it easier for people who have never been admins to become admins. How does your proposal help? —Kusma (t·c) 21:01, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
• I'm fine with the proposal. If you haven't logged an action in five years, and haven't touched the project in two one, then I don't see a compelling reason to assume that you have a current and nuanced understanding of policy. No comment on admins with barely a ghost of activity opposing what is an exceptionally lenient increase in our inactivity policy. GMG 07:39, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

  Clarifying question related to this: someone brought up five years, but I don't see it on the policy page anymore. Could someone give a clear policy proposal here? From what it looks like, this will change the activity requirement to an edit or log action in the last year or else permanent removal. But I don't have any experience with how this policy was made or how it is applied, so I would appreciate some clarification. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 07:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

  Full disclosure, I'm running on caffeine, calories and nothing resembling sleep. It does look like there are two ways I see to read the proposal actually, depending on how you interpret the word "subsequently". Either five years of no logged actions the last of which had no edits at all, or five years of no logged actions followed by a sixth year of no edits at all. GMG 08:01, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support. If an admin is not active for 5 years, they clearly aren't being an admin and should not be able to simply request the tools after being desysopped for inactivity. A lot changes in 5 years of inactivity, enough that they should have to go through RfA again. However, I do think the comments about admins who use the tools in a way that doesn't get logged as activity make a valid point about how admin tool inactivity should be considered. timawesomeness ⟨talk⟩ 06:10, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
• No, assuming however, that we find a way to account for non-logged actions. If someone hasn't been an admin for one year, I think they're likely out of step with the community; the current policy allows for a good bit longer than that. Maybe we should be spending our time on fixing RFA instead, but I don't see how this can hurt, and I do see ways it can help. Vanamonde (talk) 12:14, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Not as worded A couple of years ago, Arb made it clear that closing an WP:AE discussion is indeed an admin action (subject to wheel warring policy if reverted) yet it is not logged. I don't think closing an AFD as "keep" creates a log entry, although policy clearly prefers admin close AFDs (although doesn't require the bit). Many admin actions do not generate log entries, so this is fairly unworkable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:49, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment All of the discussion about logged vs non-logged admin actions does not really seem on point to me. We are not talking about an automated process that simply looks at logs and spits out a binary decision we are discussing guidance to give to human beings whose judgement on the suitability of an editor for the admin bit we already trust. Not having performed a logged admin action simply is a trigger ie a necessary but not sufficient condition. If there are no logged actions then it is necessary to look and see if the admin is doing other adminy stuff before making a final decision.

  Why not just say "In the case of admins who have not actively used their tools for a prolonged period, and have not otherwise performed administrative actions" and proceed from there? The purpose, as I understand it, is to give the Bureaucrats a bit of leeway that they do not otherwise have to deal with inactive admins. As to identifying other 'adminy' actions, just ask the editor in question, if they can not point to something they do not need the tools back. Jbh 18:45, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

  As I said above, we simply can't know if someone has used their tools recently or not. Viewing deleted revisions leaves no trace at all; editing through protection would be painfully difficult to spot (afaik there aren't automated tools for this yet). And since we're talking about inactive editors - being desysopped for inactivity requires one year of total inactivity, at least as far as we can tell, given what I noted before - we can't simply ask them. ansh666 19:57, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Ummm... The question asked by this RfC is "...should they still be granted two years to simply ask for them back if they are removed for inactivity?" They have already been desysoped and they are asking for them back so it is possible to ask them questions as well.

  If the question is whether to desysop and how to determine activity many of the situations brought up can be handled by a bit of searching - ie closes etc. There are not so many of these that spending an hour or so looking into each is much of a burden. In the hypothetical case of an admin who has been so inactive as to be examined for whether they should be desysopped and it is impossible to get in touch with them then they should have the tools removed. When they come back they can be asked what it is they are doing that left no trace. If they have been doing admin stuff within whatever window it is that we require then give them the tools back, if not do not.

  If they are not editing and can not be asked the question then they do not need the tools because... they are not editing. It seems to me that this, like most changes on Misplaced Pages, is being made much harder than it need be by placing too much emphasis on edge cases. The final decisions in this are being made by highly trusted users who can figure the edge cases out. What they need from the community is a set of instructions to guide them in making those decisions in line with community wishes/expectations. Jbh 20:53, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

  Wow, I feel really dumb now. Of course we'd be able to ask them, this would only come up when they're asking for the bit back. Sorry about that. In any case, the focus on edge cases here, specifically, is because bureaucrats have historically not been welcomed by the community to use IAR and such as freely as everyone else, so considering edge cases is important. ansh666 22:57, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• No. I agree with Hut8.5: it's technically true that admins might have been working on non-logged admin actions (such as closing AfDs but never as Delete because that would be a logged action) for years, but practically speaking, I hardly think it happens. For the sake of any such cases, though, and other possible oddities, I like SoWhy's tweak of Beeblebrox's proposal: for any admin who has not used their tools in five years and is subsequently desysopped for total inactivity, bureaucrats should usually not regrant the tools upon request.. Perfect. Let's leave a little room for 'crat discretion. Bishonen | talk 20:49, 13 February 2018 (UTC).
• No. The admin bit is a tool to assist with maintenance, not elevation to the Misplaced Pages Peerage. If someone hasn't used the admin tools for a protracted period, then we can't trust that they still understand current policy and (importantly) custom and practice, and they should have to go through RFA again. If anything, I'd support making the inactivity rules even stricter. ‑ Iridescent 20:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I would too, even with this little tweak the rules are still incredibly lenient. When I was drafting this I had some ideas that were significantly stricter than this, but thought it would be best to start with something small and achievable. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:03, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• No One small step towards making sure people with the admin bit are familiar with current community practices and norms. --NeilN 22:15, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• No, by which I mean yes, let's make the change Beeblebrox is suggesting. While non-logged admin actions (reviewing deleted content, responding to emailing queries, etc.) can be helpful, requiring a single logged action every few years is nowhere close to an unreasonably burdensome requirement. 28bytes (talk) 01:18, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment We talk about giving Crats some wiggle room for "discretion" but that is kind of against the grain for a Crat. Crats are supposed to act in a way that is clearly and obviously documented, making high level actions that are non-controversial. Most Crats like clear lines drawn in the sand. The last thing a Crat wants is to be dragged to WP:AN to explain why they put the admin bit to someone when the rules were fuzzy. Whatever we do, if anything, it should a hard and fast rule that leaves little to debate. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:33, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
• No however this hardly goes far enough IMO. For example look at this batch of "admins" - they have ZERO logged actions in 5 years or more (including ANY action, not just sysop actions - even a Thanks would avoid this list).

• I generally expect admins to actually use their mops to help maintain the project, and these editors seemed to have lost the key to the mop closet. — xaosflux 02:17, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

I don’t uderstand why someone who never uses the tools at all would care whether they had them or not, there’s really no reason I can see other than wanting the status, which is funny since actual working admins don’t exactly live in a world of unending respect and universal love where everything is puppies and rainbows. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:02, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

• No If you don't use it, then you don't need it. Nihlus 06:33, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
• No Though too lenient to make any tangible difference, it is still an improvement to the current method. –Ammarpad (talk) 21:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
• No (I think; read for details) - I've lost track somewhat of what we're !voting on. I agree with the spirit of the original proposal that admins desysopped for inactivity who also have not logged admin actions in an extended period of time should not automatically get the tools back upon request. Admins should be active; admins returning after prolonged absences and adminning in a way that may have previously been acceptable but which is presently against the grain have caused ANI-level issues a non-zero number of times in the past few months. I also agree that things we send off to the 'crats should be bright-line rules, not subject to discretion. Although I know the 'crats are all keenly capable of exercising discretion, that's generally not what's asked of them; that role is one of button-pushing, as mindlessly as we can make it (this is a good thing - in my line of work, when the people pushing the buttons are also the people making the decisions, things like Enron happen). So this proposal needs hard-and-fast limits: if an admin is desysopped for inactivity, and prior to that has no logged admin actions in then they are not eligible to ask for the tools back; they must resubmit to RFA. Should also say that G6 deletions do not count as logged admin actions since non-admins can log those entries now, unless that changed again. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 21:38, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

  Re: G6, only on pagemoves AFAIK (I believe I have one myself). Other G6s, such as {{db-xfd}} or {{db-blankdraft}}, are clearly admin-only still. ansh666 23:43, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

• Not as worded - Suggestion isn't very clear as has been expressed above. Additionally, there are non-logged admin actions. Declining at CAT:RFU, viewing deleted revisions, etc. SQL 23:56, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
•  Note: I've added this to WP:CENT, since I think it's a policy change that needs broad participation. Mz7 (talk) 10:21, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
• I have an opinion here, but I'm a little confused about whether we're giving a yes/no to the question in the RFC header or a yes/no to the bolded proposal(s). Could I suggest that this be closed and a concrete proposal made in a new RFC? (commenting as an admin, not an Arb) Katie 15:40, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

  I'm not sure why the admin/arb distinction would be important here. But I agree that reformulating this discussion with a clear proposal would be a good thing. As it is, different people seem to be arguing for and against different things. The proposal is that admins should be desysopped after failing to perform an edit or log action within a year, and are only able to regain the bit through a new RfA. Because of the vague nature of the discussion, people have been talking about 5 years of inactivity and unlogged admin actions when the proposal isn't addressing either point at all. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 04:46, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• Comment There was a similar discussion on inactivity last year; see Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators/Archive 15#Workshopping an RfC on the inactivity policy. I made a proposal for inactivity based on less than 50 edits+logged actions per calendar year, and that proposal failed miserably. Maxim_(talk) 16:17, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I deliberately aimed low with this proposal, it’s still exceedingly lenient and won’t affect anyone who still makes one edit per year, logged actions or no. Somewhere between this and the proposal you mention lies a good balance that the community will support this is a baby step in that direction. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:45, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

• No. If someone hasn't made a logged action in that long, it would make sense to ask them to go through a new RFA. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:51, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose any activity requirements per User:Cyp. Yes, I know there's existing requirements, but I disagree with those too (and wish I had said as much when they were adopted). FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY  17:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support making the requested change/No (whichever makes this !vote clearer). The "not logged" argument strikes me as a red herring in that an active administrator performing administrative actions without any of them logging for years is such an outlier as to fall off the probability curve. The only reason to oppose activity requirements is to make admin status a permanent reward, something the community has multiple times emphatically rejected. Beeblebrox and xaosflux have, by contrast, presented hard evidence that there are many administrative accounts which were granted that status back when RfA's were poorly-attended and WP:NOBIGDEAL was a real thing. Expecting these editors to emerge from the woodwork and return to actual adminship is assuming absurdly good faith. The community gives editors administrative status in the expectation that it will actually be used. The solution to the oft-stated administrator shortage is not to reward non-administrative behavior. The solution is to recruit new admins. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:41, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• No - a user should only be an admin if (s)he can be trusted to understand the current relevant policies and follow them. A user who doesn't use a tool is likely to forget how to use it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:25, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
• No per above. If you've gone that long without using the tools, then chances are you don't need them. -FASTILY 00:57, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• No this won't change much, but it is a step in the right direction. Lepricavark (talk) 15:42, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Weak oppose — as a sometimes-inactive admin myself, I usually find proposals like this very mildly insulting, as they're tacitly saying, "Yeah, remember all that sanity you demonstrated and your respect for policies and guidelines? You'll forget all of that and become rash if you go away for any period of time." Furthermore, rarely does someone actually throw up any cases where someone's inactivity and subsequent return from it caused serious issues (except for like, that one time way back when which resulted in the current activity bar).
  Reading the above I also see lots of imagination and assumptions of future bad faith, plus some strange interpretations of ideal behavior. Why is it a bad thing to edit normally and avoid logging admin actions if you're inactive? How does that count against you as demonstrating poor judgement? Isn't it preferred that an admin avoid using admin tools when they've been inactive until they're confident in their use again? Isn't that literally an embodiment of what's desired to achieve the goal of the thing that's being proposed? Why make it permanent?
  RfA's a pretty stressful and time-consuming process that you should really only have to go through once unless you demonstrate untrustworthiness, and when life/job takes over, volunteering can fall by the wayside; I've had months disappear before what I feel is "coming up for air." Either way, a good admin tries to review whatever's happened in the meantime to check for any major changes to policy (and be happy to undo something botched if it ever comes up). Keep in mind, however, that even when they're active, admins aren't magically hard-wired into all changes across the encyclopedia, so being an active admin doesn't automatically endow you with a feel for the Zeitgeist of the community. Throwing up more barriers to resuming the thing you were already trusted with doing is just one more reason someone won't return unless they know they can dedicate large amounts of time to the process of returning in and of itself, which is unlikely given the likely reasons for inactivity in the first place.
  Also, as a side note, each time someone proposes more zOMG-inactive-admin things like this, what little time I have tends to go toward an obligation to respond to it as one of the "class" of people potentially being affected. If/when evidence of an actual problem occurs under the current guidelines, then I'd be more than happy to support revisions; otherwise, the ounce of cure isn't necessarily worth the pound of prevention in my eyes, but it looks like I'm in the minority on this one; still felt the need to raise a dissenting opinion. :P
  --slakr 23:00, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I mean... I understand where the argument is getting at, but I have personally seen multiple times when returning admins needed fairly basic policy explained to them, of the type that any RfA candidate would be expected to understand before they're handed extra buttons (at times even asked and answered at the Teahouse of all places, although I'd be hard pressed to find the diffs), and this starts to at some point, codify very different sets of expectations from the community. I would also point out... again... that half a decade away from the project is a pretty exceptionally long time. Even as someone who considers themselves fairly inactive, you don't even approach the type of standard being proposed here. This wouldn't catch most "sometimes-inactive" admins; it would catch patently absent ones.

There is also IMO a larger matter of eroding the notion of the admin corps being its own landed aristocracy, which I, and I'm sure many others, see as an overall positive direction to go in. I expect this peerage is the main reason why RfA has continuously inched closer to a beatification process, rather than a net-positive/negative evaluation, because it's seen by many as, if a mistake, a nearly irrevocable one that must necessarily degrade into a spectacular catastrophe in order to undo.

I would argue that the whole thing on average is corrosive of community confidence in the corps overall, and leads to a less effective cohort, filled with some fairly unqualified candidates, and less overall qualified active ones because of the effect it has on recruitment. GMG 15:42, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Exactly this. I am not concerned with the account security or policy forgetfulness issues. I just don't see how adminship can be "not a big deal" but also a lifetime appointment. I don't advocate for a very high activity standard, because that would make it more of a big deal than no activity standard at all. But I think that some easy processes to remove adminship from people who no longer need the buttons is a step in the right direction. And I support this proposal, because it actually enforces that standard, rather than removing the tools but not the status as the current policy does. I would also like to see the policy changed to prevent admins from continually turning in the bit and then getting it back when they come back from vacation, but that's another debate I suppose. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 18:28, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Ajraddatz: guess it depends on the length of the vacation, the ones that literally make 1 edit a year (often removing the required warning notice) and go away for a year are the ones keeping up the "lifetime" standards. Notably, this discussion will not have any impact on them. — xaosflux 18:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• No / Support. Though I think I would prefer it to fix the 5 year interval as running between the last admin action and the request to regain the tools, which doesn't quite seem to be the proposal (I find it a touch unclear on that). Johnbod (talk) 12:13, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• Meh. Seems like a solution looking for a problem. Stifle (talk) 17:28, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• No or Support proposal, whichever is more clear. If an admin hasn't made a logged action in the last year, chances are that they're busy. If an admin hasn't made a logged admin in the last five years, chances are that they're either using only the viewing-deleted-revisions function, or they really aren't on Misplaced Pages and need to get re-familiarized with the rules. If these users are in good standing, passing a re-RFA shouldn't be a problem. epicgenius (talk) 01:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose A very large percentage of admin actions don't actually generate a log entry, closing Afds, Tfds, etc. Closing request for moves or other Rfds etc etc. That being said there really shouldn't be activity requirements other than editing requirements to keep the bit. No admin should be forced to use their tools just for the sake of activity. -DJSasso (talk) 13:18, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

This argument is a red herring. It’s incredibly unlikely that someone would spend five years doing admin work on a regular basis yet never once see any situation where admin tools were called for. It just doesn’t add up. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:42, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

• No (or Support proposal, whichever is more clear). We're talking about logged admin actions here - not things that are preferred to be done by admins but which any editor can do without the tools. Admins are elected at RfA on the fundamental premise that they claim to need the tools and will use them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:40, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
• No/Support - As mentioned above, this stance is still exceptionally lenient. I mean seriously, this will only apply to admins who haven't logged a single edit in a year, and have not logged an admin function in five years. And to the people saying that "not all admin actions are logged": seriously? No admin is going around using the mop in a way that doesn't log a single action for five freaking years. Can you imagine a desysopped admin coming back 7 years after their last admin action, saying, "It's okay because I've been using the mop to look at deleted revisions". Not exactly a mitigating factor. Swarm ♠ 00:47, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
• No/Support per Swarm. Double sharp (talk) 05:09, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
• No/Support per Swarm and further the project is nearly 17 years and activity of several of them has declined over time .Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 08:34, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
• No if they aren’t being used for so long, there’s no point in having them. Even with this proposed change, it’s still much too lenient for me. Part of me can appreciate what Slakr says above, and the fear of having to go through RFA is not unexpected from less active admins. But at the end of the day if you aren’t here, you don’t need extra privs. Aiken D 16:46, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
• NO/Support: Oh give me a break. If you toodle over to the section of Misplaced Pages where they approve the use of scripts for approval/declining of draft articles, if you've been inactive for a couple of years, they turn you down and ask you to get familiar again with current WP standards before reapplying. WP changes all the time, and I really don't think any admin who takes a few years off has the current knowledge to be FIT for the mop. Nha Trang 19:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
• No (i.e. support proposal)- This seems to me very sensible. Being an admin is a functionality, not an honorific. If it no longer serves any function, then the rights should be removed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:27, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
• No (support). Really great to see this proposal getting traction in contrast to prior efforts to rein in the hangers-on.  — Scott • talk 13:17, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
• No yes, admins need to use their tools to remain familiar with the standards, and there are a few good analogies above. As for the minutiae as to what constitutes an admin action- well that's why we have bureaucrats. jcc (tea and biscuits) 23:40, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
• No - Just no. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 02:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Close requested

I think it’s pretty clear what the result is here, and have asked at WP:ANRFC for a formal closer. Thanks to everyone who particpated. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:54, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

A little question: Does the consensus here consider only "logged" admin actions as valid for the purpose of this policy or admin actions in general. I am asking because the edit implies that only the former count while the discussion seems to be more evenly split among these who do specify what is meant by "admin action". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:00, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus, I made the edit because tool use is probably the most ambiguous phrase around, and it seemed pretty clear from the discussion that the proposal was for logged actions (and that is what people who were !voting on commented about). There was specifically opposition because of that point, but the consensus was to carry the proposal, and based off of the discussion, it made sense to clarify it as the first time someone tried to get a resysop while failing the criteria, we would have no guidance and 'crats would be left on their own to decide what counts (I could reasonably argue that viewing deleted content was an admin, action, etc.) TonyBallioni (talk) 16:04, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Inactivity?

Should an admin with just two (non-admin) edits in the last year still keep the bit? (A once very-active editor whose edits over the last eight years haven't exceeded double figures.) Andy Dingley (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Under current policy, yes. Attempts to raise it above 1 edit or log entry a year have failed in the past. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:12, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

So the absence of any admin actions isn't grounds then? That is surprising (although it's how I read the literal statement too). Andy Dingley (talk) 01:40, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

All an admin has to do is either have one edit or one logged action a year to keep the bit. The reason for this that has been explained to me was that the community adapted the activity policy primarily for account security concerns, not for reasons involving competence and familiarity with project norms. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Not exactly. The original discussions leading to the introduction of the process featured all those elements strongly, but the account security argument was harder to dismiss. Failure in 2008, success in 2011. Johnbod (talk) 11:54, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorites paradox ~ Amory (u • t • c) 01:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

You can see in the above discussion that some users are disputing whether not using the tools at all for five years is sufficient reason to question someone’s fitness to be an admin. There is a segment of the community that seems to think “not all admin actions are logged” is a blanket argument against any sort of standards for admin activity. It’s ridiculous, but there are enough people who actually believe it to keep things more ro less the way they are. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:10, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

In the 2011 discussion I link to above I mentioned several admins who hadn't edited at all since 2002; there were still plenty of people against de-sysop. Johnbod (talk) 12:08, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Andy Dingley: see in the thread above "big list" there are admins with 0 logged actions in over 10 years. — xaosflux 15:11, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Close of above RFC

• Beeblebrox, hello. Just a quick query if I've misread the Rfc. What about inactive administrators who have four years of no usage of admin tools before the desysopping due to inactivity and come back, say after five years of no usage of admin tools are complete but before the two additional years of inactivity are complete? Do we depend on the bureaucrats to decide on an as-is-where-is basis or do we tweak the wordings to include this (something to represent that "if an administrator is desysopped due to lengthy inactivity, and if the desysopping is preceded and/or succeeded by a cumulative five years of non-usage of admin tools..."). Thanks, Lourdes 15:41, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

  Generally speaking, any policy rule that must be expressed as an algebraic function is probably too complicated for general acceptance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:55, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

• I'll throw my hat in here too and say that the wording currently added isn't perfectly supported by the close. "Five years was mentioned" does not equal "consensus for five years" as interpreted, and the current wording could still be interpreted in at least four ways:

1. Five years no logged actions plus a sixth year if no activity at all
2. Five years no logged actions the last of which had no activity at all
3. Five years of no administrative work whatsoever regardless of logged actions plus a sixth year of no activity at all
4. Five years of no administrative work whatsoever the last of which had no activity at all

That's... probably not terribly helpful, but when the rubber meets the road the crats are going to have to figure out which interpretation they're going to go with. GMG 15:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

My reading is #2 (which is what I just tweaked the wording to clarify, as I agree tool use is awfully ambiguous, and the conversation made it clear we were talking about logged actions): the RfC did not authorize desysoping for 5 years of no action. It said that a resysop request should not be granted if there have been no actions in the previous 5 years. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

The ambiguity there is on the meaning of "is subsequently". And actually, there's a few other ways it could be interpreted. For example, what if someone last "uses the tools" (ignoring the second type of ambiguity there) on 01/01/1900. Their last edit is 01/01/1903. They're subsequently desysoped on 01/02/1904 for inactivity. They request the tools back 01/03/1905. The five year period during which they did not "use the tools" passed on the day prior to requesting restoration, but they're desysop for inactivity did not occur subsequent to the five year period during which they did not "use the tools". GMG 16:49, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

At any rate, the close doesn't authorize five years for anything. The close simply puts that there is general agreement that after a prolonged period the tools should not be restored. It decides the issue of principle without deciding the issue of procedure, and for whatever my probably unwelcome opinion is worth, it don't think it would have been inappropriate, in the interest of supreme propriety, to allow a crat to close the discussion, since they're the ones that have to deal with any fallout from it. GMG 16:56, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

• I will admit that “tool use” was maybe a bit vague but I think it’s abundantly clear from the discussion that it was taken to mean “logged actions.” I don’t think any reasonable person can honestly argue that an admin who is using the viewdeleted right (which is not logged) for five years without ever finding occasion to restore anything (which is logged) is really doing admin work, in fact to me that would suggest pretty clearly that all they wanted it for was to peep at things non-admins can’t see.

As to the meaning of the word “subsequently” quite frankly I don’t see the ambiguity. Wiktionary lists the primary definition of the word as Following, afterwards in either time or place and I think that is what everyone agreed to here.

Not super thrilled about the “usually” in the close language, it seems like this had a pretty high level of support as an actual rule, not a suggestion, and ‘crats need clear rules to do their work.

As I mentioned in my opening statement, this would have applied to 15 desysops for inactivity last year, so there’s sure to be cases where this will apply in the near future, I’d prefer to see policy language that clearly mandates this as opposed to “probably” or “usually” which won’t do the ‘crats much good. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:07, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Maybe not viewdeleted but AfD closes or AE posts or edits to protected pages (if memory serves, there is an admin or two who did mainly that) are not "logged" but certainly "recorded". No opinion on any other issues. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:21, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I don’t wish to re-argue the RFC, but I can’t see how an admin could do AFD closes for five years and never run across a single one where the consesus was to delete, or edit fully-protected pages for five years and never come across a case where protection should be changed or removed. A month? sure. A year? maybe. Five years? No way. It seems quite a number of others agreed that this argument is a red herring. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:26, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Are there any examples of admins who match these criteria? If not, then I think we can say it’s so improbable it’s not worth worrying about, and consider tool use to be logged actions. Aiken D 19:39, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't think reductio ad absurdium is quite valid here. It's perfectly plausible for someone to come across plenty of non-logged admin actions during normal reading and editing - someone could close an RM or XfD or two on pages they come across, edit through full protection (without even realizing it), decline some G4s, rescue some sources from a deleted article, I believe create an article through the title blacklist, and roll back vandals, and none of those actions would be logged. Nobody is saying that someone could be constantly doing AfD or whatever for 5 years and not delete an article. Besides, 5 years ago was 2013 (when I started editing actively) and frankly not much has changed since then compared to, say, 2006. Frankly, I'd be more worried - and I know a lot of other people would be too - about someone who has held the tools continuously and semi-actively since the beginning than someone who is coming back after a long absence, since they'd have less incentive to keep up with current events and changes. No admin who has been desysopped for cause so far has ever had the tools removed for inactivity. ansh666 19:50, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

• This is all beside the point. The RFC is closed, a consensus was reached, we’re just trying to work out the appropriate language now. Tony Ballioni’s latest edits seem to reflect it fairly well, although I’m still not a fan of saying “usually” in a policy we expect ‘crats to enforce. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:15, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you. Would it be okay if we quickly ask the community here in a quick poll if it's alright to remove the word "usually" from the above addition in order to remove ambiguity? Lourdes 03:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I don’t think that’s even necessary. There was no discussion of making this a “maybe” rule. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:11, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it. The close is otherwise fine, but adding “usually” feels like a WP:SUPERVOTE. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

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