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Spoken Misplaced Pages

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• Misplaced Pages talk:Etiquette/Archive - old discussion

• Project page renamed from Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette -St|eve 23:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Old discussion archived 23:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC). St|eve 23:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Mergeto Civility

I agree with the idea of merging for important concepts, leaving the Etiquette page as a guideline. -St|eve 23:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Welcome ritual

I see several people (thank you, all of you!) welcoming new people. Many of them use a more-or-less standardized block of text (the ~~~~ trick, a link to WP:5P, ...), followed by a sentence or two customized for that user.

I think User:Tobycat is doing a good job with {{subst:User:Tobycat/welcome}} (see, for example, User talk:ChadThomson).

Is there a place to discuss and collaboratively refine the standardized part of the Welcome ritual message? Or at least collect tips on how to rapidly welcome new users with your own personalized message -- such as the "subst:" template trick? (Which of these would be the best for that: Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers, Misplaced Pages:Etiquette, Misplaced Pages:Talk pages ?) --DavidCary 21:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

This comes a little late, but I would suggest the Welcoming committee. -- Laura S | talk to me 17:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Propose Changing "Forgive and forget" policy to "Forgive and let go"

I propose changing this to "Forgive and let go". Why? One never forgets really and I think it's a poorly based principle. Additionally, it's important to remember the particular nuisances of a person so you can make more positive decisions about how to deal with them in the future.

What isn't helpful, IMO, is holding a grudge or "gunny sacking". If you are going to let go of something, you should truly be doing so. For instance, in American Indian culture, crimes are punished harshly and quickly. But after that, it is over with. No one is allowed, by custom (not a law) to express anger towards that person after they have been punished.

As such, I feel that "Forgive and let go" would be more contusive to a healthy functioning community than an attempt to loose memory of something which is, IMO, unhealthy, counterproductive, and often not possible.

User:Daniel_Santos

I tend to agree that user:Daniel_Santos proposal has some valid points. Inviting someone to simply forget past injustice and inequity is a request for them to be vulunerable to identical future abuse. Worse, if the perpetrator perceived some personal advantage from poor behavior, it is an invitation to additional bad behavior. After forgiving and letting go (of immediate tit for tat consequences) a few times one can still and always prepare a summary with links to provide to appropriate people, teams, or communities. That said, I think it is important to note that the existing "forgive and forget" probably assumes most rude, offensive behavior is simply erronius not intentional. The "forgive and forget" approach assumes that as grumpy offensive different people apparently lashing out or giving other members of the community reason for taking offense receive only warmth and forgiveness that their behavior will improve in response to ... perhaps copying ... the community at large's good behavior. Ideally then, as we all forgive and forget some past behavior the overall community's ability to get along in the aggregate will improve. Possibly we could merge and modify to "Forgive and let go while taking notes and then iff confident your notes are better than their notes, at serious provocation file a detailed complaint at the arbcom." Actually that still sounds a bit like sand bagging I guess. What did American Indians (or native peoples or senior immigrants) do with recalcitrant repeat offenders? Did the punishment meted out vary depending upon the value of the contributions to the tribe or influence within the tribe? Does the fact that we have no recourse to "harsh" penalties effect the applicability of this example of those who have established communities before to our virtual online community? user:lazyquasar

Forgive and Let Go. I like it. I never thought of that! mezzaninelounge 17:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

WI-kee-ket?

Shouldn't that be WI-kee-kwet, since etiquette is e-ti-kwet? Jongpil Yun 06:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't, because it isn't. Etiquette is eh-tee-ket.

Interesting... Drahcir (Richard)

Adopt Non-Violent Communication Principles?

I am a new user and feel excited by discovering the self-organizing principles under which this community runs. It meets my need for hope that in a world where domination structures are part of all levels of organizing we can experiment with other forms of organizing and create more life-serving and peaceful systems on this planet.

Reading the dispute around Darwin-Lincoln and the wide use of judgment and name-calling in that process, it occurred to me that the principles of Non-Violent Communication (as developed by Marshall Rosenberg) may be very helpful for this community. It suggests to approach others from a consciousness of oneness (i.e. seeing the humanity in anyone, even a person that may be resorting to strategies one doesn't endorse at a given point in time) and empathy (i.e. looking to connect to the humanity / what's alive in the other person). It also proposes a process of communication that facilitates that kind of human connection:

1) Make specific observations (rather than generalizations or judgments), e.g. 'you have changed this 37 times' versus 'you have stubbornly changed this 37 times', 'you have twice called me an x and y' rather than 'you behave like an insulting bastard'...

2) State how you feel (rather than confuse feelings and thoughts or attribute feelings to others), e.g. I feel sad and confused, rather than 'I feel abused' (attributes responsibility for own feelings to others), 'I feel you're wrong' also isn't a feeling

3) State your need (versus your strategy) to help yourself and the other side understand what you are looking to achieve and help you empathically connect as human beings, e.g. I have a need for fairness, inclusion, empathy, ... while 'I really need to have this listed' is a strategy to get a need met, not a need as such (a need is free from reference to a specific person or action), e.g. in the mentioned conflict: 'I have a real need for play, you deleting my reference to the coincidence of birthdays makes me sad that I cannot meet that need by sharing these facts I find interesting'

4) Make requests (rather than demands), e.g. in the given case it could have read 'I really understand your need for order and clarity around what information is essential and important. To allow for more playfulness and creativity with the content shared on Misplaced Pages I suggest we create a 'Random Add-Ons' category for any content that users need to click on to see but that are less constrained by the considerations of how essential or relevant the information is. I would enjoy hearing your reactions or other suggestions for how I could have my need for play and inclusion met.'

Part of the beauty is that even if the other side doesn't follow this process, you can always 'listen for' the actual needs that are alive underneath the judgment, demands or whatever behavior may be occurring that you do not find life-serving.

These methods are being applied in the most difficult conflict situations (civil war, street gangs, ...) to mediate and educate as well as in healing work with victims and perpretators of severe crime. They also are used in schools, prisons and other institutions to help make these systems more life-serving. The energy and consciousness this body of work comes from strikes me as very compatible with that of the creators and (many) participants in this community.

I would welcome comments from others and help as to in which areas of policy these principles may be most helpful (I can think of general discussion, etiquette, mediation and dispute resolution).

One could also write an article about Non-Violent Communication or versions of it for communication, peace-building, mediation etc.

Sjw70 14:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

re: interweaving comments

I just added this text to the section on Talk Page etiquette in response to a recent incident where the interweaving made the discussion much harder to follow. In my opinion, interweaving and point-by-point rebuttals are generally bad because they tend to make an already tense discussion even more adversarial. I remember reading this piece of advice long ago but couldn't find again when someone asked me about it. After reviewing a number of pages, it seems appropriate on this page. Please edit or correct it (or point me to the right page if there's a better place for it). Thanks. Rossami (talk) 22:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Interweaving rebuttals into the middle of another person's comments, however, is generally a bad idea. It disrupts the flow of the discussion and breaks the attribution of comments. It may be intelligible to the two of you but it's virtually impossible for the rest of the community to follow.

Comments should not be unduly long (policy, somewhere). Midgley 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Comments should generally tackle one thing, one point, one aspect, even if the commentator will wish to comment on several aspects. Not doing that damages threading.Midgley 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Exceptionally, when a long, possibly rambling, multi=point comment covers sufficient ground that putting a response at the end would not clerly associate it with a specific point in the mass, thus not elucidating the meaning well, interleaving a comment may be the least bad solution. Midgley 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Long commments which excite in readers the wish to make a response immediately after some line in the middle of them are highly likely to be bad comments, involving (what is at least seen by some users as) lies or other personal attacks. It is better not to make such comments. If such comments are made, it may be the least bad thing to do to accept that a short comment placed adjacent to them is not an unreasonable response, although reversion, refactoring of the personal attack, or administrative deletion of the whole comment might be better. Midgley 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

When making a set of comments which might reasonably produce responses individually to some, and especially if you do not mind or actively invite such detailed responses, it is sensible to sign each section. Midgley 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Like this. 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I propose this subpoint be added:

If you do interweave your comments, you should duplicate the signature of the person you are responding to at the end of each section that you are splitting, and sign each sub-response you make individually, so that it remains clear who is saying what.

–Tifego _{18:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)}

Principles: Register an account... but if you don't, don't make a signature that looks as if you had

I've added that to this page for good reason. You'd be amazed that it needs writing, and it is specifically based on the actions of a single, and AFAICS unique user. There is an RFC which is actually about other aspects of his behaviour. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/86.10.231.219 - he represents himself as The Invisible Anon. I started the RFC, but several users including admins have made forceful advice that his signature habit is an unhelpful one. Accordingly, I commend this specific mention in Etiquette, lest someone else think it is a precedent and good idea. Midgley 17:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it shouldn't need to be said, but that such a thing shouldn't be done and if someone is doing it then it must be said. Signing one's name like that is misrepresentation, since whether someone is an IP address–user or not has important implications both technically and for the social structure of Misplaced Pages. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Eh? If some troll abuses it once, fine, ban the troll and that's the end of it. In the mean time, anonymous editing on wikipeda is one of the foundation principles, and it's one of out key features. Don't let a couple of trolls ruin things for the entire freaking rest of the planet!

Hmmm, that and you can't expect anons to know wikipedia etiquette. They typically read it later, after we've given them a warm welcome. :-)

Finally, many anons are great people who have much to contribute, so be nice to them!

Kim Bruning 21:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC) (former anon editor who joined after people were nice to me :-) )

Is it a policy violation to make accusations of sockpuppetry on article talk pages?

Editor X accuses on an article's talk page another editor of being a sockpuppet for the purposes of violating 3-RR. Is Editor X violating any policy by making the accusation on the article's talk page? Drogo Underburrow 01:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, consider that the accused editor's alleged socketpuppet has already been user checked and the results determined there was no connection between the two.Giovanni33 05:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

A user check only shows that it's not the same IP. My home IP is completely different from my work IP. I could easily run two accounts that way. The accusation to which Drogo refers is about an editor who has been shown twice (once by check user, and once by accidentally signing as one user while he was logged on as another) to have used puppets. He had been denying it beforehand, and has been denying it ever since. One was his wife, he claims, and the other was a friend that he was introducing to Misplaced Pages. In both cases, they started their wiki-life by reverting to his version. Finally, the editor who was recently accused of being a puppet of this user has 32 article edits, 30 of which are reverts to the alleged puppetmaster's version. All his talk page edits are in support of this user. He follows him to different pages to support him and vote for what he wants. There is absolutely no doubt that he is at Misplaced Pages for one purpose only, whether he is an individual person or not. AnnH ♫ 06:56, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I know this editor in question and there are some more relevant facts. If this user were being tricky and somehow knew a way to spoof his IP address, then why did the other editors who he didn't want a connection to me to be known to him, get exposed by a user check--while at the same time these other alleged puppets proved to show no connection at all? Logically, he would not use two methods at the same time and if they were all his socks; they would have all been discovered at the same time, along with my his alleged wife, and his friend.

Also, we look at the timing of when he and his alleged socketpuppets edit, their edits do not always come to his aid, nor do they edit at the same time that he would need them--also they have edited at the same time that he has edited, proving that it could not be the same person using different locations. Otherwise, how does he go back and forth from home to work and home again all at about the same time--unless his work is literally across the street from his home? Also, does he have a dozen different work locations? All these users in question were userchecked and showed no connection among themselves either. There are at least a dozen users who have been alleged to be his socketpuppet; it seem that anyone who supports him seems to be userchecked. And, with some, even after being userchecked, the allegations do not stop for this particular editor who makes the accusations. And, its stated as a fact, with no room for good faith or benefit of the doubt, in effect insulting several editors who may be totally innocent.

The question is, when should it be dropped? The only logical possiblity given the facts that are known is that he is innocent and there are other users who do support his POV but don't edit much otherwise, or he just have a dozen friends that he calls and uses them as his meatpuppets. It seems to me one concusion is based on good faith assumptions and the other isn't. In anycase, bring up this controvery on article talk pages is the wrong place as its distruptive.Giovanni33 07:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I read the comments above very carefully. Such issues appear to me rather "difficult" to understand. I feel I have to learn a lot! --Bhadani 17:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Policy?

I notice that User:ComSpex changed this page from a guideline to official policy (); where is the discussion about this (very significant) change? It may have stemmed from a question to the help desk () but that doesn't seem like consensus to me.Ziggurat 02:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

ComSpex is new as of March 2006 and I don't see any evidence that this page went through any discussion or policy-proposal procedures. So I figure they were just being bold, and I've changed it back. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Alternate, but equally valid spellings?

Can we have a rule that you should not change the spelling of a word to another equally valid spelling please? I feel that it is important to preserve the article as the author intended in this case and I don't see the merit of changing a word that was already spelt correctly. StephenJMuir 15:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There's some guidance on this in the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, though it's more specifically for American and British English variations. Essentially the rule is don't change it unless the subject is particularly American or particularly English and the current variants don't match. Otherwise, use consistent AmE or BrE spellings according to the first variant word edited into the article that is one or the other. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So can I revert Arc de Triomphe then? I have already reverted it and the said person has just repeated the change. I would like something added to this Etiquette page about it. StephenJMuir 16:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely. And it's not a matter of etiquette, it's a matter of following our style guide. The most obvious part being the section (Disputes over style issues) that says the Arbitration Committee has ruled that it's inappropriate to change a valid spelling from one style to another without a good reason. It's an anon, and they likely don't understand our policies. So yes, revert at will for this kind of spelling "correction". — Saxifrage ✎ 17:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Getting my wikiquette questions answered

Where does one go to ask specific questions about community etiquette? (In this case, "Is it OK to correct the spelling on someone else's User Page, or should I email them, or should I put a notice on their talk page?" The editor in question has made other spelling mistakes, so I don't think it is intentional.)Juneappal 20:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've seen similar questions asked at the Village pump (Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Copyediting Someone Else's Comments? for example) so you could ask there; personally I just drop people a note on their talk page and leave them to change it (or not) themselves. Ziggurat 21:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Question about red links

This is a question for any experienced wiki editor. Is it considered "bad form" to start inserting a large number of red links into an existing article? Someone did that to one of the Misplaced Pages articles on my watchlist, and I'd like to revert most of the red links (since I feel most of them are links to articles no one's going to create any time soon). But I would like someone's opinion about the proper etiquette. Are lots of red links a bad thing? I find them annoying, personally. Sorry if this question has already been asked!--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 23:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

A lot of links, period, is considered bad form. Links in an article should always be relevant to the article (so linking to a passing mention of music in an article about wind generators shouldn't be done). Excessive redlinks usually indicates that most of the links aren't likely to ever be articles, or are linking to the wrong place anyway. The cases where many redlinks are actually legitimate are rare enough, so probably in this case you can just revert the lot. If any are directly relevant to the article, though, see if they can't be salvaged by finding the correct blue link, and any that are really topical yet still red, consider leaving in. — Saxifrage ✎ 00:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for answering the question. I just noticed the note at the top of this page that says "Please note this is not a forum for discussing the topic generally" so sorry for my bad etiquette!--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 02:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Oop, you're right. I missed that too. The Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy) is probably the place for it. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Why does this policy protects the extreme right? (And particularly smart trolls)

As per this official policy, I cannot denounce a user who is obviously making systematic POV and Consensus violations of being/acting "racist", "sexist" or having a "nazi" ideology. Why? It's obvious that such violations of NPOV should be denounced and fighted in the benefit of Misplaced Pages.

In brief, I can't be honest and direct. I can't call things by their name. That's hypocrisy and may protect the worst and most sophisticated infractors of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines.

I suggest that the text is rewritten in a way that when something is blatantly true cannot constitute a violation of this policy.

I also suggest to initiate a guideline on Honesty. We can't be assambleary and nonviolent if we are hypocritical. We must talk things by their names and be able to do so when it's clearly needed. --Sugaar 23:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

References for your "enjoyement" (if you are able to enjoy such things):

• Article White people
• my RFI case

Of course the vandal in question has been spamming my user page - and others - with threats of reports and so on and never ever denied my accusations - that anyhow are patent. --Sugaar 23:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)