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whats up with the image: Do not delete the image!!! It has not been written off yet

where is the image---Halaqah 18:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the image since it does not qualify for public domain. It will be deleted soon. Joelito (talk) 18:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well i dont think it will be deleted as i have addressed the issues so i have put it back-thank you-so please dont delete it without discussion because it didnt take long to fix the issues. Thank you again.--Halaqah 18:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Do not delete the image!!! It has not been written off yet as a violation, the issues have been fixed, look before you jump!--Halaqah 18:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I saw the same image. I have cleared my system's cache and the new image has appeared. Joelito (talk) 18:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks U very much for understanding because it took my time to create it for this site.--Halaqah 18:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I've seen this kind of thing happen with my own images. I posted something early on before the was of putting up copyright permissions was sort of automated for us, didn't do it right, didn't put the image on my watch list, and somebody deleted it. If that had been the only copy of the image it would have been gone forever.

The moral of the story is: Always keep backup copies of important things on your own hard drive. P0M 16:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't take out major chunks unless concensus is reached

!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_sig.png Your signature with timestamp

--24.131.34.59 02:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
--Filll 02:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Verification needed

The article currently states

South Africa's Black Economic Empowerment Charter stated: "'Black people', 'black persons', or 'blacks' are generic terms which mean Africans, Coloureds and Indians who are South African citizens by birth or who have obtained citizenship prior 27 April 1994. This term does not include juristic persons or any form of enterprise other than a sole proprietor.

This was cited to a blind URL, http://www.thedti.gov.za/bee/codes/58_67statem040.pdf, which I followed up and annotated accordingly: it is

• Statement 040 Glossary, BEE Codes of Good Practice, Department of trade and industry (South Africa). (Draft.)

However, unless I am very much missing something, it appear not to contain the language that is supposedly quoted from it. - Jmabel | Talk 01:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

You will find the paragraph page 3. Or have a look at page 5 in this document. Perhaps it's better to use the second source because of the "citizenship prior 27 April 1994" part SecurID 03:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I am a Dravidian and am quite disguested with the fact that some afrocentric people are trying to lump up dravidians into the black race.If you are quoting that there are 2 sepreate black people one with straight hair,aquiline nose,thin lips that is the dravidians then will you say there are 2 types of white people one is staright hair,almond eyes,and small nose (chinese)?.when there is a difference then there is a difference.Also Me and my family have olive skins and we are no where near the black people but we are dravidians.Ofcourse there are dark skined Dravidians and they certainly dont look like africans.There facial features,body structure,hair texture differs very much.Please note this saying "A Black skin means membership in a race of men which has never created a civilization of any kind." — John Burgess, 20th century scholar and founder, Political Science Quarterly All learnered people know that Dravidians created the highest Indus valley civilisation and also they have well,defined languages,music,art form and temple structures/architecture.Afrocentrics pls dont Hijack us and put us in an entirly different place where we dont belong.Pls note that Indians are not homogenous and their skin types vary from very light skin to dark.That is how we are made.So would you people place all our fair skined people as whites????. Saying dravidians as black people is as stupid as saying chinese(light skin) belongs to the white race.

The article is not saying that Dravidians are black, it's simply citing the opinion of a notable though controversial figure who says they are black. It also cites people who say only sub-Saharan Africans (and their descendants) are black. The article cites all views on the subject, and is extremely well balanced. Timelist 06:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I am quite happy to own up to having a genetic heritage that goes back to the same source as all other human beings. My understanding is that my darker skinned ancestors got themselves to central Asia and then split up migration paths. Some of them headed north-west and got into territory where the sun doesn't shine very strongly and had difficulty surviving, given what they were eating, because they were vitamin D deficient. Somebody was born with a mutation that decreased skin pigmentation and helped the vitamin D problem. (It also makes us more susceptible to skin cancers of various kinds, but usually we reproduce before we die of skin cancer, and not all people suffer that outcome.) Another fork of my ancestors' migration group headed on east, accumulating a few mutations along the way, populated East Asia, jumped over to the Americas, so even the American Indians down near the South Pole are my cousins too. Now as to skin color, some of the second fork people got themselves to Japan early on and there appears to have been a separate mutation that gave them white skins. Irony of ironies, the later arrivals with darker skins regarded (and sometime still regard them) as those who are uncivilized, uncouth, etc., etc., i.e., the usual crap.

What you will find, to reduce the picture to the most simple elemeents, is that when a migration gets started a wave of people moves forward and hardly any of them "wash back," so that the likelihood is that any mutations are carried forward and not washed back. The arrival of people in North America (apparently in two waves) happened at a time when travel was easier. Conditions changed and it became very difficult to make it over the Bering Strait. So after around 20000 years ago there was little contact with the outside, and even less possibility that mutations would be carried back to Asia or forward to Europe until world-wide sea traffic opened up.

What that scenario indicates is that there are certain "marker genes" or mutations that are carried by descendants of Amerinds, so if you have that gene you have to have an Amerind in your family tree somewhere. In other places one can ask, e.g., whether a favorable mutation that occurred in Indonesia could spread, marriage by marriage and/or intrepid wanderer by intrepid wanderer, back to Africa or up to Sweden. I guess if you had some idea of how far somebody might walk to find a suitable mate, you could work out a minimum time it would take for a mutation to spread generation by generation (under the most favorable conditions) from Indonesia to Iceland or from Peru to Portugal. It seems that the minimum time would be quite large.

What you will find when you examine the genetic markers of any individual in the world is that they indicate a common ancestry and some "trail" of changes as people moved off by different paths from the original center. What happened at the center is also interesting because people may well have continued to adapt to that environmnet over the 120,000 or so years since the first migrations went forward. One result may have been even darker skins for people living in high places and/or places nearest the Equator.P0M 17:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

habesha/ethiopians

I think we should be more specific when talking about ethiopians. It isn't a purely homogenous contry, there are different ethnic grops. plus when people talk about ethiopians being caucasian i think they're referring to habesha not oromo, so why is there a picture of oromo boys. something should be done to correct these inaccuracies. I would appreciate user:yom's input

All the genetic studies I've seen are based on amharas and oromos but a lot of people would argue that race is just a social construct so genetics are not relevant. Coon would have considered the kids in that picture caucasoid because of their elongated facial features but others argue that's nonsense. Look, there's no point debating this because there are no right or wrong answers. It all depends on how you want to define black people. I think the article does a good job showing all opinions, but opinions are all they are. Timelist 22:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know why a footnote to this effect cannot be included so someone who wants to investigate further has some place to start. People want to have nice neat simple answers, and reality is often far more complicated.--Filll 12:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Habesha/Ethiopians black?

I am still dissapointed that noone wants to talk about the inaccuracies within the ethiopian section.If we are to make this a legitamite and scholarly article we must adress the fact that ethiopia does not consist of a single ethnic group, there are habesha,afar,oromo,gambella and many more.correct me if i'm wrong but when people debte as to whether ethiopians are black or notthey are quite probably referring to habesha. If this is true will someone tell me why there is a picture of oromo children, i am ethiopian/habesha and i can assure i do not look like those young boys. also if we want to decide who is black or not we must define what black is. Is it cultural,genetic,geographic or a combination?.Once we come to a defintion or a set of opposing definitions that are too diferrent to reconcile (as most often happens) we can then show what groups would be defined as black.We should attempt to make sections that adress these issues thereby enhancing the legitimacy of this article.

sorry i didn't realize i created the same article twice, nevertheless i would appreciate people's input danya 23:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I responded before just above. I do believe that the fact that Ethiopia is not monolithic should definitely be discussed. If there is not room in the article, put it in a footnote or another article, linked to this one.--Filll 00:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The genetic studies of Ethiopians are based on the general Ethiopian population not just the subset you belong to, thus it makes sense to pick a very typical Ethiopian group like the oromo. I know there are some ethiopians (especially in the North) that do have a lot of Arab blood, but we don't want to give a skewed impression of the general population. That picture is perfect because it shows the ambiguity of their appearance in that their facial feautures are Caucasoid, but their skin and hair texture is negroid. Timelist 01:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Firstly we don't exactly have arab blood but we can talk about that later, you are right when you say we don't want to give a skewed version of what ethiopians look like timelist, so i propose that we put up a picture that shows the variation within the ethiopian population, for instance a picture with a dark skinned ethiopians, a light skinned ethiopian, ethiopians with certain facial features and so on... i would do it myself but i'm a new member and i do not have the facilities to do so.74.96.108.178 20:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I have been arguing this point since i arrived at this page. Ethiopians are so diverse, it is as one historian said "A museum of people" you travel from Aksum to Araba Minch and you wouldnt believe you are in the same country. The Arab blood nonsense is as that guy Shahadah said to remove agency from Africa because it just so happens Ethiopian civilization is the most advanced in so-called Sub-Africa. It is such a problem topic it shouldnt be included here, it is an exotic discussion which should be on an exotic page as it causes to much focus and distracts from the article.--Halaqah 12:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the variation of peoples inside Ethiopia is very interesting. However, as Halaqah says, it might not belong on this page. It sounds like a huge amount of detail that might be better suited to a specialized page on Ethiopian peoples, linked to this page. Also, do we have a reference that shows exactly which peoples in Ethiopia were included in the Ethiopian genetic study and what variations within Ethiopia were found? Or are we just talking nonsense based on no information?--Filll 12:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok I looked at the article and reference. Surely there are other references besides this one, however, this reference makes me think that people are all upset about nothing. This study looked at ONLY 48 Ethiopians from a very small area. It was found that for this characteristic they were studying, 62% of the study group had characteristics closer to a group that was mainly European and 24% had characteristics that were closer to a group that was mainly Bantu. But this was not all genetic characteristics. This was not all Ethiopians. This was just a few more than half of a very small group of Ethiopians compared to small groups of Europeans and Bantu in one very restricted characteristic. So what? Please why are people so upset? This is interesting, but I would not expect anything different. Would you? Why woud you be surprised at that? Why should the color of anyone's skin have anything to do with ALL the thousands of gentic variations that exist? That viewpoint sounds very

• outdated and unscientific
• racist

to me.--Filll 13:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, you claimed on the talk page that the 2002 Oxford study was unscientific and racist. However the Oxford study is simply replicating previous findings that Ethiopians have substantial Caucasoid propinquity:

Genetic studies of autosomal loci have estimated that 40% of the DNA is of Caucasoid

origin while 60% is African (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). A recent study of mtDNA and Y-chromosome polymorphisms predicts approximately the same degree of admixture (Passarino et al. 1998). The mitochondrial DNA types of the Ethiopian population can be assigned to one of four broad groups: African (25%), Caucasoid (25%), Indian Caucasoid (20%) and 30% that cannot be attributed to specific

geographical areas. ]

So taking the male and female lines together, about 40% of the Ethiopian gene pool comes from Caucasoid sources. But on top of that, you must consider that the Eurasian Adam originated in Ethiopia, so what some people describe as proto-caucasoids (in the form of elongated Africans) are arguabley indigenous to Ethiopia. This explains why only about a quarter of Ethiopians are black, according to Oxford. But again, there are no right or wrong answers here because many people argue that genetics is not relevant because race is a social construct. Oxford is cited in the article because they are simply the most notable of those who argue this view point, but it's just one of the many, many controversial viewpoints cited in the article. Timelist 21:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

you guys are right we should make a seperate article,i'm too timid to start it off myself but i would be willing to contribute if someone got it off the ground first. plus half this talk page seems to be about people fighting over whether ethiopians are black or not.74.96.108.178 02:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It is not difficult to make a new article. I think many ethiopians have dark skin, but not all. Whether they are black or not depends on what definition you want to use. But what I do know is, that Ethiopians are human beings; homo sapiens sapiens.--Filll 03:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No we don't need a new article. Everything is fine as it is. The fact of the matter is the most reliable source in the whole article (Oxford) says Ethiopians are not black and that has been cited, along with critcism by those who think the motive is racist. It's also been cited that Ethiopians were considered black in the ancient world, so the article is balanced. Kobrakid 19:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

i still think a picture should be added showing habesha who look less african to show what we mean when they say ethiopians might not be black74.96.108.178 01:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

What they mean is that they don't have broad features or large jaws. The kids in the photo have narrow delicate features, which some people think is caucasoid, but at the same time they have dark skin and tight curly hair which has long been associated with negroid. If we showed a lighter skin more hybridized Ethiopian, we would be pushing the POV that Ethiopians get most of their caucasoid features from external sources, but it's more accurate to show that even indigenous dark skinned Ethiopians have elongated features, since the Eurasian Adam lived in Africa. Timelist 21:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Correction

It was claimed that I stated that the 2002 Oxford study was unscientific and racist. This is not correct; far from it. In fact, I think the 2002 Oxford study is great, but nothing to get upset about. So many people seem to get upset over NOTHING. What I wrote is, if you read it carefully, is that: Why should the color of anyone's skin have anything to do with ALL the thousands of gentic variations that exist? That viewpoint sounds very

• outdated and unscientific
• racist

to me. What I am trying to argue is that you cannot tell much from the color of a person's skin. You can tell a little, but not that much. Skin color is sort of nonsense. And this 2002 study is not conclusive, but it does sort of support that notion. Skin color is a stupid thing to worry about since it does NOT divide humans into races. And someone who wants to claim that skin color divides humans into races sounds sort of outdated and unscientific to me and sort of racist to me. Skin color has very little to do with race, at least in my opinion. Getting in a frenzy over skin color makes you not very different from the Klu Klux Klan or aparthied types. --Filll 03:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You can't tell very much by the appearance of one characteristic in a phenotype. The white skin-color people aboriginal to Japan,the Ainu, are white but nobody looks at their other characterists and asks how Norwegians got all the way over to Japan so many tens of thousands of years ago. On the other hand, there are some people in the U.S. with blue skin color. The color is heritable, but we know that their ancestors were of ordinary European stock. Only one mutation occurred, and the rest of the genetic characteristics they display are typical of the population of humans in the midst of which they appeared. But if you didn't know their ancestry then there would be no way to learn their characteristics except by examining these individuals point by point. The idea of "race" being a social construct is that a huge story is cooked up out of a few scrawny facts. If you want to know whether an individual can sing with perfect pitch you don't look at his/her skin color or the shape of his/her incisors. You ask the individual to sing something in a certain key and then you measure the frequencies actually sung. The same goes for any other characteristic. Even in the case of certain groups being more highly susceptible to certain diseases you still have to look at the individual. It would be ridiculous even to treat my identical twin for skin cancer just because I've suffered the disease. (It may make sense to spend some public health funds telling low-pigment people to stay out of the noonday sun.) P0M 02:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

But Fill if skin color is silly then invisible genetics is even sillier. Clearly we will respond to skin color before genes as we can see it. An African American in Ethiopia or Sudan or Congo clearly is "of the same race" because of similar features (physical not genetic). The irony is genetically some AA have 30% European blood and look "blacker" (whatever that is) than some people in Niger. I think the race thing is like living with a bad habit. We cant deny it, and we cant ignore it. But the more you look at it the only reason we go along with it is because it has been used to divide and destroy the world. 4 me African people (people native to Africa) have a broad cultural unity, and a common history. This is the racial family. beyond that i really dont know, because race is so in our minds. Even today you can see 1 family produce children of different races, so how does this factor into our "perfect" concepts?--Halaqah 14:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

When I was in Chiangmai, Thailand in 1966 I met a young lady whose father was British (so she spoke excellent English, a help since I spoke no Thai) and whose mother was Thai. She invited me for lunch and I got to meet her boyfriend. I saw a tall, very handsome, black man. I guessed that he was an American soldier or an African. It turned out he was neither. He was Shan, a minority group that ranged the mountains on both sides of the borders of Burma and Thailand. If he were plunked down on the streets of New York people who treat him as they treat other "black" people. Race is a myth (or at least nothing more than a social construct), but racism is a reality. What needs to happen is for all people to look beyond the color of one's skin to understand the human being within that skin.P0M 02:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree Halaqah that people react to skin color because they can see it. But I am doubtful of claims that having darker skin proves a person is stupider than a person with light skin. I am doubtful of claims that a person having darker skin is more likely to be dishonest than a person with light skin. I am doubtful of claims that a person with darker skin is more interested in sex than a person with light skin. I am doubtful of claims that a person with light skin is a more natural leader than a person with dark skin. And so on. You can tell a little about a person with darker skin, but not a lot. Darker skin tells you that the person's skin is darker. A lot of the other things are not proven, or just assumed, or based on very poor science and statistics, etc. It does not mean that they are true. However, it often means and has meant that the person with darker skin will be treated different by society. As for being able to tell where a person's ancestors come from by skin color plus lip size plus hair type plus eyes etc, it is possible sometimes to do this. Other times it is not possible at all. So as I said, skin color can tell you a little, but not a lot.--Filll 14:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And America is "wonderful." Even the racists can turn out to have a hefty share of the genetic inheritance that disturbs them so much when possessed by other people. P0M 02:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Who said anything about skin color? Obviously Oxford educated geneticists are aware of the fact that Ethiopians have very dark skin, their point in saying they're not black is that according to their study, they don't cluster with other sub-Saharans genetically. They are using the term black in a racial genetic sense, not in a color sense. Kobrakid 19:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be helpful to have some better-defined terms, wouldn't it. The trouble is that when we try to pin down terms like "race" we find a big mess. If we just look at populations that were separated from the rest of the world for long periods of time we find two things: (1) Lots of inherited variations within that group. (For instance, the aboriginal people in Australia were not all the same height or weight. There was a big spread among them, just as there has always been among other populations.) (2) Lots of inherited commonalities among members of that population and humans from all other areas of the world. Since the Australians arrived on that continent around 80,000 years ago and the oceans rose afterwards and made it much harder to get back and forth between Australia and the rest of the world, they should be an ideal test case for examining the idea that we can define "racial" identities. But what happens to the violet-eyed aboriginal natives of that continent? Is one uncommon characteristic enough to determine a difference of "race"? If so, then everybody (except for identical twins) is a member of his/her individual race. And on the other hand, how about the people who migrated down to the jump-off point to Australia and just stayed there for the next 80,000 years. Are they the same "race" or a different "race"? Probably they have accumulated a few genetic characteristics that are not represented in Australia. Would a single differentiating characteristic force us to call them a member of a "different" race? Maybe they have some individuals who cannot digest all the proteins in asparagus but all aboriginal Australians can eat asparagus without producing the funny smelling urine I get when I eat it. Is that enough to make them two different "races"? Or do we need two, ten, a hundred? How many characteristics are enough?

As for not clustering "with other sub-Saharans genetically," that's what I've just been describing in other terms. With what group or groups do these people cluster more closely?

It would be interesting to know more about the genetic history of these people, however. Does the genetic record indicate that they moved out of the original center of human life, migrated to that area and accumulated mutations of the millenia that made them the people that they are today? Does the record indicate that a group moved outside Africa, changed in response to other environmental conditions and then migrated back again? Does it indicate that 20,000 years or so ago some of the people that had adapted to life in the far north migrated back to Africa for some reason and either chased other people out or intermarried with them? To me, that kind of a study would be more useful than arguing about who the "true Africans" are.P0M 02:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

who says ethiopians have dark skin?a lot of ethiopians i know including me are light skinned.74.96.108.178 01:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Most of the attitudes I sense here are not very constructive. This is why this entire subject always devolves into hostility. Everyone gets angry at everyone else over almost nothing. But it is par for the course I guess...--Filll 05

14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

People are emotionally involved with these issues. One of the reasons is that there has been so much hurtfulness involved with the practice of dividing humans into groups based on superficial characteristics. One of the things that can be done is to break down the superficial certainties tha racists bring to these issues. Someone may think that because he has certain superficial characteristics s/he is "totally different" from members of some other group. Just the ability to objectively specify what the actual difference are can have an important effect on making things better. P0M 02:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am glad that at least one person sort of understands what I am getting at. Skin color is just skin color. No more, no less. It tells you very little else about the person in most cases.--Filll 02:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Europeans are not Africa (or Black)

I am native to Africa. I am white. :D. --Adriaan90 (Talk|Contribs) 14:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

My friend that old convo is stale now, U were born in Africa and hence you are a European in Africa, A European with an African Passport, A White person who lives in Africa. Pick a combination but there is one thing you will never be is an African. History removed African identity 2006 will not see it thrown to the highest bidder. Wez all African now---right. When You walk into Berlin airport r u sure you are an African? When u go for a job in New York r u African then 2. I have noticed how European-South Africans are part-time African. When you see them in Europe it is amazing how non-African they become, they back to being EUROPEAN again. or when you want to buy property in Africa funny how African the areas are. I actually saw an advert in TZ stating it was a "European area" Please let African people define themselves.--Halaqah 14:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And, please, let these so-called "European-Africans" also define themselves. I define myself as African. When I go to Europe one day, I will become European again. I see nothing wrong with that. But anyway, I don't see how this discussion is contributing to the article at hand, so yeah. PS: I don't know what Misplaced Pages's policy is about moving people's comments into new sections, like you did with mine. It now looks like I randomly posted an off-topic comment. But it's ok, I am not going to make a fuss. --Adriaan90 (Talk|Contribs) 16:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Your race is a function by where most of your ancestors lived 10,000 years, not where you personally live right now. Kobrakid 19:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

According to the physics regarding thermodynamics, if the world was 10 000 years old, the whole universe would have been frozen over, because heat would spread evenly through space. Your theory is flawed, about the age of my race, to begin with. Further, This is not about race, frankly I don't know what this is about, but there is an argument going here about "why white people act black when they live in Africa and why that is wrong". --Adriaan90 (Talk|Contribs) 20:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed his point. The world is not 10,000 year old, however by 10,000 years ago humans had finished colonizing most of the Earth and were genetically isolated into major geographic groups that would come to define the major races (if you believe in race). This has now changed as humans have become increasing mobile. Timelist 21:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Protect this page

Why dont you guys protect this page from new users? Clearly it is a page that is being targeted by racist people, just protected it.--Halaqah 11:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. If the article got semi-protection, the amount of racist vandalism we're forced to revert should go down at least a bit. Timelist 20:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Ezeu 21:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Nazi Views

Here is a question that just struck me. The Nazi scientists had a racial theory in which the Aryans were the Master Race. And the Germans, or at least some of them were supposed to be Aryans. And Aryans came from Northern India. Does anyone know the other features of the Aryan theory, or what other beliefs about races the Nazis had? I think that these were held in many places besides Germany for a few decades in the early 1900s. What was their view on black people? I know they had formulae based on measuring heads and noses for deciding a person's race.--Filll`

Yup, I know all about it! Still, it's rather a big subject. I suggest that you read Aryan, Aryan race and Nordic theory. You might also look at Aryan invasion theory (history and controversies). Paul B 13:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Original Greeks

I also read someplace that there is a theory that the original Greeks were blonde and blue eyed. What is this based on ? Anyone know? --Filll 13:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's based on Nordicist theory of the early twentieth century, which equated the Proto-Indo-European population with northern Europeans. Since Greek is an IE language, the assumption is that its speakers entered Greece from the north and that therefore the original Greeks would have been "Nordic". The fact that Greeks originally came from ther north is supported by Greek mythology, but there is no emphasis on being blond or blue-eyed. Indeed, the "north" in relation to Greece is the central Balkans. Nordicists argued that ancient Greek populations became racially mixed with supposedly "inferior" races over time, especially during the period when Greece was controlled by the Ottoman empire. This was supposed to explain the decline of Greece from being the most advanced nation on earth, to being culturally backward. Needless to say modern Greeks rather resent the idea that they are somehow a different people from their famous ancestors, so there are many Greek nationalist websites which attack this theory. It's worth noting that Afrocentrist and other writers reversed this argument as far back as 1901, when Sergi published his theory of the Mediterranean race in which he argued that ancient Greeks were related to African populations. There's an interesting article in the Journal of Negro History from 1917 which discusses this point. They were still arguing the point in 1929. This debate has erupted again since Black Athena and genetic studies by the controversial geneticist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena. Paul B 12:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to fold this into the current article, or a related article.--Filll 13:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Caucasians

Should we include a footnote or something about people from the Caucasus mountains as being black, which we had in the article a few months ago? --Filll 13:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

History of science problem

The current text says: "Scientists believe that the need to absorb vitamin D in Northern climates gradually made skin become lighter"

In past decades scientists may have theorized that skin color changes occurred gradually. Perhaps they thought that skin color changes were the result of the accumulation of many small mutations. It is my memory, however, that recent attempts to trace out the genetic changes that made possible adaptations to special conditions and that define the major genetic differences between, e.g., Australian aboriginal populations and African populations, have been the result of specific single mutations. If that is the correct picture according to the genetic record, then individuals who did not carry the mutation but attempted to live in areas where heavy clothing would have cut down on UV reception and vitamin D production would not have prospered, and those with adaptive characteristics would have gradually outbred them becoming the prevalent type in northern regions that depended on food stuffs that did not provide an abundance of vitamin D.

In the early years after the mutation appeared it would have been rare for both parents to share the mutation so skin colors would have been of an intermediate shade, But over many generations the higher mortality rate, lower fertility rate, etc., of the vitamin D deficient individuals would presumably have produced the result that we see most clearly today in places like Scandinavia. P0M 05:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Evolution and skin colour

Article contains unsourced statement:

Only tens of thousands of years later did modern humans branch out into the Middle East and Europe and finally North East Asia and the Americas. Scientists believe that the need to absorb vitamin D in Northern climates gradually made skin become lighter.

This needs a source. Especially because, I have read what we might call the opposite theory, although I am not going to add it to the article because I don't have a cite for it. (Help?) The theory I have read is this: The original human inhabitants of Africa were light skinned. These then migrated out of Africa into colder climates. Over time, mutations developed in the population which produced darker skin. These mutations were favourable in the environment of Africa, so those with the dark-skinned mutation were more successful than the light skinned Africans, so the light-skinned Africans died out and the dark skinned Africans thrived. Whereas, in colder climates, lighter skin was more favourable, so the dark skinned mutation never got a foothold.

I think the assumption that the earliest humans had pale skin makes sense -- our great ape relatives have pale skin, as do most animals with fur (when you are covered with hair, dark skin gives little advantage.) It seems natural that we would have lost hair first, then darkened our skins to compensate.

But, as I said, lacking sources, I'm not going to add anything. --SJK 10:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, however it should be mentioned that evolution is a theory, and other theories suggest differently. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 12:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No I don't think so. Evolution is the scientific consensus. Plus, there is no "other theory" about skin colour differences. Even YEC believers accept that it is a product of what they call "micro" evolution. On the main point - as far as I am aware there is no certainty about the skin pigmentation of early humans. I think it's been suggested that it may have been lighter than the current norm in central Africa on the grounds that many Bushmen have mid-brown rather than very dark skin. But it's unlikely to have been "white" since the loss of hair would occur very slowly in tandem with selective pressure for another means of protection from the sun. Paul B 14:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You are trying to force your own opinion into your statement. You can't just ignore the fact that not the whole world believes evolution. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 15:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It is, as I said, the scientific consensus, not just my opinion. The article cannot usefully discuss this specific point without using that consensus.Paul B 15:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I see what you mean. I was meaning that one should note that there are other groups or people who do not believe this and that they question evolution's factuality. The fact is that there exist people who don't agree with evolution, and therefore we cannot ignore that fact. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 15:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It is true that there are "fringe" elements that do not believe in evolution. However, someone who did not believe in evolution would have a very difficult time getting into graduate school in biology in any respectable accredited school anyplace in the world. A person who did not believe in evolution would have a very difficult time getting hired as biology faculty at a respectable school anyplace in the world. A person who did not believe in evolution would have a very difficult time getting tenured as biology faculty at a respectable school anyplace in the world. A school that did not teach evolution as part of biology would soon lose accreditation. There are no publications in any respectable peer-reviewed biology journal that seriously question evolution. There is no evidence that questions evolution that exists. Aside from a few religious fundamentalists who somehow feel that evolution challenges their beliefs (I have seen antievolutionists who are Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalists and Hindu fundamentalists), there is no serious challenge to evolution. The antievolutionists are in the same camp as people who believe in extraterrestrials abducting people or cows, or in the Loch Ness Monster, or ghosts, or vampires, or avoiding black cats, or any number of other unfounded beliefs that people adopt. What other respectable claim for the existence of black skin (or white skin) is there?--Filll 15:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You are attacking me by saying I am an idiot because I do not believe in evolution, and tons of other people out there. Please remain civil. Also, Darwin, the founder of evolution, was Christian, are you saying then that all Christians rejects evolution? I think you are implying that. Additionally, how can you say that a person who rejects evolution will fare bad at school and university? My whole family rejects evolution, all of them have degrees and what have you. Your statement is completely uncited and expresses your personal emotions toward others who differ from you in opinion. You are also not contributing to the article in question. Saying that there are no serious questions to evolution is completely ignorant, because there have been tons of books written which question the thermodynamic state of space which doesn't account for a big bang event, and the condition of the earth's core, to speak of the least. These issues does not concur with what evolution suggest, and therefore either needs more research or should be otherwisely explained. Please can we end this discussion here, and continue discussing the fact that other people with non-evolutionistic views exist? I don't think that is too difficult. Thank you. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 15:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

My goodness. This probably should be addressed someplace else besides this page. I have no objection to making some footnote about evolution and nonbelievers in evolution, but it has to be carefully worded. Let me try to address your statements:

• I never said anyone who does not believe in evolution is an idiot (including you). I said that there is no evidence to support their beliefs, but that is fine. Why do you think you are being attacked? You are free to believe anything you like. However, nonstandard views should not pollute an encyclopedia article. And by any measure, claiming that there is some other mechanism besides evolution operating here is definitely a nonstandard view. Should an article on NASA have a big section on UFOs and UFO abduction of farm animals?
• Of course Darwin was a Christian. My understanding is that he was at least partly trained for the ministry. Why would you think otherwise?
• Lots of Christians believe in evolution. I do not have any statistics, but my strong impression is that it might be more than half of all Christians. Among those with advanced training, I would expect this number to be far higher. You do not think this is true?
• I never said anyone who rejected evolution would "fare bad at school". I said you would have a difficult time being a scientist in biology or trained in biology if you did not understand it and accept it. Do you dispute this? Give me an example of a biology faculty member in a respectable accredited university that is known for not believing in evolution. Of the tens of thousands that exist, I think you would have trouble finding even one. Are you so anxious to pick a fight?
• The big bang and the earth's core have nothing to do with evolution. The fact that you even bring them up give one severe pause. The objections based on thermodynamic laws are a simple matter of not understanding thermodynamics. Evolution does not violate thermodynamics. Period. And this has been known for decades and decades.--Filll 16:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I shall quote for you then, because you are completely manipulating my statement.

My goodness. This probably should be addressed someplace else besides this page. I have no objection to making some footnote about evolution and nonbelievers in evolution, but it has to be carefully worded. Let me try to address your statements:

• I never said anyone who does not believe in evolution is an idiot (including you). I said that there is no evidence to support their beliefs, but that is fine. Why do you think you are being attacked? You are free to believe anything you like. However, nonstandard views should not pollute an encyclopedia article. And by any measure, claiming that there is some other mechanism besides evolution operating here is definitely a nonstandard view. Should an article on NASA have a big section on UFOs and UFO abduction of farm animals?

You said the following: "The antievolutionists are in the same camp as people who believe in extraterrestrials abducting people or cows, or in the Loch Ness Monster, or ghosts, or vampires, or avoiding black cats, or any number of other unfounded beliefs that people adopt."

If this isn't a blatant insult, then I do not know what is.

• Of course Darwin was a Christian. My understanding is that he was at least partly trained for the ministry. Why would you think otherwise?

A blatant manipulation of my statement. Here's what I said: "Also, Darwin, the founder of evolution, was Christian, are you saying then that all Christians rejects evolution?"

• Lots of Christians believe in evolution. I do not have any statistics, but my strong impression is that it might be more than half of all Christians. Among those with advanced training, I would expect this number to be far higher. You do not think this is true?

No, I do not think it is true. And I am sure I have made this clear in my statement as well. Stating that "more than half of Christians believe evolution" is wishful thinking in terms that you do not have any supportive statistics and that you are trying to further your argument by brainwashing.

• I never said anyone who rejected evolution would "fare bad at school". I said you would have a difficult time being a scientist in biology or trained in biology if you did not understand it and accept it. Do you dispute this? Give me an example of a biology faculty member in a respectable accredited university that is known for not believing in evolution. Of the tens of thousands that exist, I think you would have trouble finding even one. Are you so anxious to pick a fight?

As childish as your comment suggest you are, I will continue to answer this. Yet again you are blatantly manipulating my comment by putting words in my mouth. Here's what you said: "However, someone who did not believe in evolution would have a very difficult time getting into graduate school in biology in any respectable accredited school anyplace in the world. A person who did not believe in evolution would have a very difficult time getting hired as biology faculty at a respectable school anyplace in the world. A person who did not believe in evolution would have a very difficult time getting tenured as biology faculty at a respectable school anyplace in the world. A school that did not teach evolution as part of biology would soon lose accreditation."

The big bang and the earth's core have nothing to do with evolution. The fact that you even bring them up give one severe pause. The objections based on thermodynamic laws are a simple matter of not understanding thermodynamics. Evolution does not violate thermodynamics. Period. And this has been known for decades and decades.

Nonsense. I have read books that bring up serious questions toward evolution. And as I said, that was only to name a few. I have not been on this planet long enough to study every possible cause for evolution to be flawed.

I do not believe that any of these arguments are bringing us closer to an agreement upon the notation of people who believe otherwise than evolution. I also don't think that you are being civil. You are clearly trying to push your argument forward by mentioning nonsense cases which do not have to do with the argument, and example being "that all anti-evolutionists fall in the same camp as people who believe in UFOs abducting people in cows". Therefore, after this argument I shall ignore any further accusations/manipulations of yours. I am not a fool, so the rubbish you are writing here isn't changing anything about my personal opinion.

Getting back on topic, I don't think this case deserved such a big argument. Stating that "However, nonstandard views should not pollute an encyclopedia article. And by any measure, claiming that there is some other mechanism besides evolution operating here is definitely a nonstandard view. I have no objection to making some footnote about evolution and nonbelievers in evolution, but it has to be carefully worded" is bias because it is smothering other beliefs and their reasonings. Just because evolution is consensus under scientists, it doesn't mean that all of them believe in it or that there doesn't exist any alternative theories who counters evolution.

I am not going to argue further with you, as you cannot seem to maintain the point and discuss the issue in question. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 16:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Having looked at your talk page, where you claim to be a 15 year old Jewish child in grade 9 in South Africa, I think I have heard enough trolling. When you can give me ONE example of a biologist at a major accredited university, say in the US or the UK, who does not believe in evolution, then I will listen. Otherwise, come back and talk to me in 10 or 20 years. Get a PhD in evolutionary biology and then talk to me.--Filll 17:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

PS I would suggest you study hard. Use your brains. Try to learn something first before you express too many opinions.--Filll 17:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Given your demands for references, I would suggest you look here where a Pew study demonstrates that about 69 percent of Catholics and 68 percent of Protestants believe in evolution. Evangelicals in the US constitute about 7% of the population from a 2005 Barna group study and only 30% of them believe in evolution. So of the 76.5% of the US population that identifies themselves as Christian, 45% are normal protestant, 7% are evangelical protestant and 24.5% are catholic. Of the normal protestants, about 75.1 % believe in evolution (from simple algebra 0.7*Re+A*Rn=0.31(Re+Rn) where Re is the fraction of evangelicals, and Rn is the fraction of normals, and solving for A). So overall in the USA, Re+Rn+Rc=0.765, and .3*Re+.751*Rn+0.69*Rc=B(Re+Rn+Rc), where Rc is the fraction of catholics (.245) and B is the overall belief level of self-identified Christians in the USA. B=.6901, so almost 70 % of all Christians in the USA believe in evolution. And I am almost positive that the figures are much higher among those who are educated, especially those educated in biology. You want to challenge me some more? --Filll 22:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is another article and anotherand yet another one with essentially the same position as mine, with quotes and references. There is a list of scientific societies rejecting intelligent design and creationism, and affirming evolution. I think an encyclopedia should go with what is the overwhelming mainstream position, not some sort of fantasy or fairy story, aside from at most a parenthetical dismissal of competing unscientific theories.--Filll 15:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Marginal though this is to the current article, the fact is that Darwin eventually rejected Christianity, as he states in his autobiography. His closest ally, Thomas Huxley, invented the concept of "agnosticism" to express his opinion, and Darwin's co-theorist of Natural Selection, Alfred Russel Wallace, was a spiritualist. Paul B 23:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes this is irrelevant to the current article. However, I believe that the main arguments in the article should be grounded in evolution. To subscribe to other fruitcake theories will just serve to detract from the article, which will have to surmount many other prejudices. Lots of people are already biased against people of color, and it will just hold the article up to ridicule to put extra ill-founded unscientific nonsense in it.--Filll 00:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think there are a couple of underlying issues involved here. One conflict arises from the discomfort that some people feel when the theory of evolution seems to suggest that the Biblical account of the creation of human beings was done by two divine acts, the creation of Adam and the subsequent and derivative creation of Eve. Another conflict or at least sense of uncertainty can arise because in some ways the fossil record is hard to explain by the simple version of Darwin's theory. To the first discomfort one can say, with Aquinas, that God by his very nature cannot tell us an untruth by fabricating the appearance of a world that is at variance with his own divine acts. We have to understand that we are finite creatures who get things wrong in our own minds, cannot understand finite features of nature much less the infinite nature of God, but that we can trust that if we understand science and God correctly there cannot be a conflict between them. The second conflict arises because Darwin's theory has nothing in it that would directly explain how, e.g., dinosaurs would persist for millions of years and then all die off rather suddenly, whereupon evolution suddenly appeared to take a sprint forward and in a relatively short time evolved a large number of species previously unknown to fill the ecological niches left when the earlier creatures died off.

An article on Black people is not the right place to argue about Darwin, nor is it the right place to try to create an encyclopedic understanding of what people have meant by the word "race." People should be directed to articles on the appropriate sources.

This article should also not be a discussion on the philosophy of science--even though the philosophy of science needs to guide us in understanding what can be known and justified scientifically and how to do it.

What this article can do, however, is to reflect the genetic histories of the various groups of humans who have inhabited Africa, and perhaps to follow them out of Africa. I don't know for sure whether the skin color of the earliest Africans can be deduced from the genetic record. But there is already a considerable amount of genetic evidence to show that Africa is not monolithic in terms of heritable characteristic. Certain groups seem to have diverged from other groups at a very early time and to have maintained their genetic separateness fairly well even over tens of thousands of years.

In other words this article should treat "black people" as the trunk and lower forks of the family tree of humankind, not as though "black people" are genetically homogeneous. And, of course, due recognition should also be given to the presence of a "family tree" for the languages of people indigenous to this continent, its religious commonalities and divergences, etc. P0M 02:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It all starts to become clear. Our dear friend A was born in South Africa, previously one of the most racist places on the face of the earth. So racist that almost every other country banded together for decades to isolate them and force them to change their official anti-black policies. When the government finally changed, whites found their political and economic power was sharply diminished. Many of them had land taken away. The whites that are still there, like A, are, of course, somewhat resentful. Christianity was used extensively in South Africa to justify the viewpoints of racist Europeans, just as it was used in the US in the slave states to justify racism. A is a child, and trusts the family around him and what he is taught in his family and at school because that is all he knows (something like the Japanese who are taught in school that they had to attack Pearl Harbor to get even for Hiroshima). So I am willing to cut him some slack. He just needs to learn that, unfortunately, a lot of what he is being taught is nonsense. I imagine that his particular fundamentalist Christian sect teaches him ALL KINDS of ridiculous things about black people and where they come from.--Filll 15:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't need to talk to you. You're such a dumb nit wit. Get a life, fool. Who the hell do you think you are to come insult me about my age and nationality? And, I am not racist. One of my best friends is black. So shut the fuck up. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 16:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I see. I am dumb, I am a nit wit, I am insulting you. I am calling you a racist. And then you use some invective. I guess you really are 15. But on the other hand, it is probably painful for him to confront the sort of realities I am suggesting. Probably does not want to acknowledge that until fairly recently, South Africa was one of the most hated countries on the planet, and every white South African was basically viewed as guilty until proven innocent. No one wants to believe that the culture he or she comes from has serious deficiencies or biases.--Filll 16:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't do away with the fact that our culture has biases. And I don't give a crap for that. That's what it's all about. Thank God you're no Christian, I wouldn't want to put up with you in the afterlife. Furthermore, fuck you for calling Christianity "a fairy tale". And do not imply that people who are fifteen are idiots. You're the idiot, for trying to convince a "fifteen year old racist child from South Africa" to believe your rubbish theory that a little ball exploded and poof here we are arguing if it happened or not. Also, if you do not believe that there is a God or whatever, why don't you do everyone and yourself a favour and kill yourself, because what's the reason for suffering so bad in this world if there is nothing to die for? Just end it here. It's much simpler. Now, you are still manipulating my statements because you evidently want to so badly place your own bias within the article. All I asked for in the beginning was that we can note that other groups and societies exist that rejects evolution and all the nonsense it suggests. However, we will not say "nonsense", because then we might hurt the poor old evolutionists that have nothing better with their lives to do that argue with "stupid fifteen year old racist children from a fucked up racist South Africa". So there. Did you get what you want? A big, fat, childish fight. And what did we achieve? Nothing. You evolutionists really have no brains. I didn't try ever to convert you to my religion or whatever (I in any case don't want such fools to be part of my religion), and you just started attacking me from out of nowhere, as if I posed a threat to the quality of the article that it might have had in the first place. And yes, I don't give a crap what you think, and so does Misplaced Pages. The bottom line is: there are stuff mentioned withing the article that doesn't correlate with the beliefs of societies other than the evolution clique. End of story. So, it shall be noted and it shall be cited. You are not contributing to this matter by any means, so a reply from you is highly unwanted. Thank you. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 17:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

And, with your continuous edits of your comments, I would like to reply to the fact that you keep on misusing South Africa as an excuse to detract the focus from the main argument. I was born in 1990, so by the time apartheid ended (1994), I was four years old. Therefore, I had no part in the Old South Africa. Also, I do not know what the hell you want to prove by insulting my country the whole time. We are a successful nation with a stabilising economy and growing black middle and upper class, the same with whites, although that is just at a much lesser degree. Now, stop using RSA as an insult to me. Everything you want to say, say it directly to me. My country has nothing to do with my opinions, and they don't give a crap what a lunatic from Canada thinks about them. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 17:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you know I am not a Christian? My mentioning South Africa is indeed relevant, because it puts your comments and long string of curses and name-calling in context, so that they make sense. I will note that your irritation and lack of facility with English is starting to show, since a large fraction of what you have written actually makes no sense whatsoever, and this seems to be getting worse.--Filll 17:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I will note I am not trying to convert you. As I said before, you are free to believe whatever you like. However, the line becomes drawn when creationists or religious extremists of various stripes want to impose their nonstandard views on a scientific subject. Let me ask you. Where do you think black people came from? Are black people being punished by God for some offense their forefathers committed? --Filll 17:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, you are manipulating the statement and driving the focus off the main point. I will not argue with you except for saying that your English is rubbish as well, and I actually don't care if I can't speak English properly, because not everything in this world is English. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 17:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course my English is not perfect. I do not have a PhD in English or Linguistics or something similar. But at least my writing is comprehensible, as near as I can determine. If you do not care if people can understand your writing, then why should I care? Your writing certainly confirms that you have this sort of attitude. And I will note that this is actually the English version of Misplaced Pages. Is there an Afrikaans version you might feel more comfortable? And on the main point, I think that this article will be opened to ridicule if it does not follow the standard, established, well-supported line of scientific reasoning. --Filll 17:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

So, you see as being black is a punishment? People adapt to their environment. That's obvious. I do not however buy the complete evolution myth. And, you are once again trying to place the focus off the main point. Misplaced Pages isn't about scientific reasoning. It's about what is out there that can be proven and that is notable. Other theories than evolution exist, that can be proven, and it is notable because it deals about the main subject in question. I shall not leave the English Misplaced Pages as long as you are here. Also, you say that my English sucks ass so bad. Well, I find it fairly interesting that you are quite quick to respond to my messages, considering that you don't have to decode it first to understand what I have writ. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 17:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not say that black was a punishment. But many Christians preach that. What do you think adapting to your environment is? Do you know what scientific reasoning is? I suspect you do not know what science is. Misplaced Pages is a statement of facts with citations from quality references. And obviously more space will be devoted to standard material, such as that espoused by the scientific community, than fringe material, which has no basis in serious scholarship and for which there is no supporting evidence. I have no objection to mentioning fringe material, as long as it is done carefully to avoid giving it some sort of spurious confirmation. You are welcome to stay in English Misplaced Pages of course, however I am not sure that cursing and name-calling are good ideas if you want to stay. And I will note that a good 50% of what you write is too difficult to understand, so I ignore it.--Filll 18:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

And, once again you are placing the focus off the main point (do you understand this sentence?). I can't argue with monkeys (that is indeed what you are implying you are, by believing the whole evolution hoax thing), so you go to your Misplaced Pages in stead. And do not say that many Christians preach that being black is a punishment. That is the biggest piece of bull shit that I have ever heard in my life. I hope you could comprehend what I have said so far. It can easily be proven that other societies reject evolution, and ignoring that from the article would be misleading. I hope you understood that. We can easily provide evidence that evolution is entirely flawed, however requiring that information from a "fifteen year old racist child in South Africa" is unreasonable. Also, I do not know what "scientific reasoning" is, because I have never heard of it. You also seem to imply that I do not know what science is, which is an insult and yet once again one of your attempts at placing the focus off the main point of the argument. Additionally, your own reasoning is the equivalent of a mad man's as you cannot keep an adult conversation with a person who wants to add a bit to an article. But what the fuck, I don't need your permission. Do I? You are a mentally retarded person, because you fail to keep your focus on what is being discuss, and you go to disgusting measures to try and hurt fellow editors, like insulting their nationality, race, generation, integrity, linguistic skills, etcetera, only to name a few. You are a disgusting example of a person trying to convince others of your personal mythical believes by continuously changing the subject and informing the person about how superior you are above him and how biased his or her belief system is. You should really (*REALLY*) get a life, for heaven's sake. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 18:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfree Image

What the heck is an "unfree image" of a black woman? I sort of liked that picture. Why remove it?--Filll 15:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The use of that image in this article violates the terms of WP:FAIR. The uploader claimed that the image is fair use because it illustrates the object in question (a black person) where no free equivalent exists, but since a free image might reasonably be found or created it therefore does not meet the WP:FAIR policy. --Strothra 15:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

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