Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by CorbieVreccan (talk | contribs) at 17:43, 8 June 2019 (→Addition to WP:HOUND: the). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

This page is only for discussion of the policy and not for reporting cases of harassment; if you require information on dealing with harassment click here. Thank you for your time.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14 Archive 15 Archive 16 Archive 17 Archive 18 Archive 19 Archive 20 Archive 21 Archive 22

Shooting the messenger as a policy?

I'm concerned by a comment here, User_talk:Jytdog#Redundant_one-way_IBANs,_etc. definitely seems to be hounding you (he's edited two ANI threads in the last sixteen months, both related to you, and his comments in both have been serving to undermine you, which would be suspicious enough if he had no prior history with you whatsoever),

So, if someone is regularly named at ANI, and another party comments upon them (not even filing the ANI), then the problem is with the commenter, rather than the person who keeps being reported to ANI? Is this to be any part of our HOUNDING policy or practice? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I think that this question comes in the context of Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#One-way IBAN proposed, and it seems to me that there is an irony in citing the hounding policy based on looking at comments made at the other editor's user talk page. Whether the problem is with the editor making a report or with the editor being reported is a function of the legitimacy of the report, which is why we have WP:Boomerang. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:40, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Clearly it was triggered by that ANI thread, although I don't quite follow what your point is here. My observations are two-fold:

• At that ANI thread, there are two themes. One is "Why is Andy complaining of things that happened a long time ago?" and the other is, "Andy is Bad, he has run a long-standing campaign of harassment." Now, apart from me seeing the second of these as a long-standing series of unactioned complaints at ANI about the same editor and their actions elsewhere (I'm not the one making paid editor and SPI allegations), there's a clear disjoint about how long a window is to be allowed for the consideration of past events - and subjectively shifting that around obviously changes the weighting.

Secondly, in the case linked here, there's a messenger being described as who definitely seems to be hounding you (he's edited two ANI threads in the last sixteen months, both related to you, and his comments in both have been serving to undermine you. So how do we interpret that? Is that a long-running problem, or a non-problem with an over-zealous reporter? We seem to be inconsistent and far too subjective in how this is regarded. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:45, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

How do you report harassment?

Sorry if I missed it, but I didn't read anything about how or where to report harassment. Thank you. Holy (talk) 00:10, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I reported it at ANI. If you see more, edit that section at ANI. There's no need to go into detail for a clear case like this, just mention user names. Ask at my talk if needed. Johnuniq (talk) 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

For garden-variety Wiki harassment like this, yes, WP:ANI is the place. In cases with serious real-world implications better to email emergency@wikimedia.org both for privacy reasons and to reach people who can do something about it. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:59, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Off-wiki contact

I've come across a situation that seems concerning, but I don't want to make a fuss over it in case it proves to be nothing. We have two editors in a dispute - one experienced, one not. The inexperienced editor has not enabled email, nor created a userpage, but at some point in the past included details about their involvement in an event as part of an edit summary and has been open about their identity. The experienced editor used those details to track down their phone number and call them off-wiki about the dispute. It isn't outing, in that the editor did reveal the personal details. However, if an editor chooses not to enable email, should other editors be contacting them off-wiki during disputes? Is this something we should be worried about, or just something that happens and is outside of the policy's scope? - Bilby (talk) 02:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Note: discussion about one specific instance and about the general case was intermingled and causing confusion. I have attempted to separate the two different discussions, but it may not be perfect. Please keep the specific and general separate going forward. Thryduulf (talk) 16:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Thryduulf Fwiw I find this to be indeed imperfect and not good -- comments you have left in "general" section are reacting to the framing of the specific incident that was described in the OP (e.g the intentionality clearly implied in the "tracking down" framing which is right there in what User:Ivanvector wrote: Looking up an editor's undisclosed personal info to contact them about a dispute.... I did not go try to find their number in order to contact them about the dispute - I already had the phone number from the booth advertisment, and used it when things deteriorated to try to help them, given their troubles using our interface) Please undo. Jytdog (talk) 17:30, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jytdog: I was explicitly referring only to the general case, not to your specific case. Whether the question as framed has similarities to your case or not is irrelevant. Just because one of the three examples of theoretically possible conduct I used bears a resemblance to something you may or may not have been accused of doing does not change that. Not everything is about you, even if you want it to be. Thryduulf (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: The OP is about the specific incident, and is framed in a way that doesn't reflect what happened and to cast it negatively. The discussion in the new "general discussion" subsection remains anchored in the specific incident in the OP and its framing (even now) - of course it is.

I agree that a general discussion would be useful, but it is not going to happen given the OP, which you left on top. If you want a general discussion, I suggest you open a new section. You will do as you will do, of course. Jytdog (talk) 17:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Given that there is a general discussion happening that is not about your specific case, and that the only reason there is any discussion of your specific case is because you started it, I see no need to start a second general discussion in parallel. Thryduulf (talk) 18:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

We don't agree on a) what people had already written there when you created the section; b) what people are actually doing there, after you created the section. So it goes. I asked you to undo it, you said no. Onwards.Jytdog (talk) 18:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Bilby, how did it come to light that this occurred? Did the person contact you somehow? I'm asking because I see no on-wiki communication about this anywhere, from the editor in question. Softlavender (talk) 12:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Jytdog left a message on the user's talk page saying that they had attempted to ring the user, and asking if Skype woudl be preferred instead. - Bilby (talk) 13:54, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Off-wiki contact (one instance involving Jytdog)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

That was me and the presentation is skewed. I don't mind making it clear. The other person has a very strong advocacy issue and has been floundering, and wasting the time of multiple people with 3O requests as you can see at Talk:Specific Carbohydrate Diet, and was in the process of getting themselves blocked for edit warring (they are indeed blocked now).

The person had left an edit note clearly identifying off-WP information (diff - the abstractexhibition booth description (an ad, really) is easy to find).

The situation went very downhill today (they edit warred against 2 3O helpers) and as it did, I thought about how to help them. I checked and they do indeed not have email enabled. I had already gone and found the abstractexhibition booth description to try to understand where they are coming from (what they are doing is baffling), and it has a phone number. So... I called to try to help them -- that was truly my intention. At the start of the call I introduced myself and asked if they were willing to try to talk, and they said "yes". I asked for consent and obtained it. I would not have been surprised, had they said "no", and was ready to end the discussion there.

Unfortunately, they turned out to be just as combative and unwilling to learn on the phone as they have been on-WP, so I ended the call, abruptly. (The abrupt ending is entirely on me.) It was an effort to help that did not go well for either of us. I have had off-WP communication with other advocates and conflicted editors that went well and clarified things that were causing them problems, and that is what I was hoping for.

I debated whether to post here but due to the presentation, which leads one to believe that I called to harass the person and continue the dispute, and which leaves out the crucial detail that the first thing I did was ask for consent, I felt little choice. I do appreciate that there is no claim of OUTING, at least. Jytdog (talk) 04:55, 27 November 2018 (UTC) (redact Jytdog (talk) 16:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC))

The issue remains then, should an editor use information revealed on WP to track down the phone number of an editor (whom they are in an active dispute with) and phone them at their workplace, when that editor has not given permission to be contacted in this manner and has not enabled off-wiki communication through email or any other means? Would this come under the existing harassment policy? Or is it otherwise out of scope? - Bilby (talk) 06:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Your framing is still showing, Bilby. Try "bending over backwards to try help a new editor understand what we do here," or if you want to cast it as an actual dispute, try "trying to work things out by talking, simply, as the first step in DR, with a person who can't figure out how to use WP" as alternative framings. You are trying very hard to make this stalker-y. I also am not sure where you are getting "at their workplace". Jytdog (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Talking is great. Perhaps that is better handled, though, on WP than through using information they provided to track down their phone number and ring them directly, without their permission, using contact information which they never provided. As someone who has been on the receiving end of calls from editors who have tracked down my details and rung me at work during disputes, it is more than a little disturbing when it happens. But I did want this to be a general discussion, not specific to you. If I wanted this specific to you I would have asked elsewhere. - Bilby (talk) 07:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I handled the permission aspect as well as I could, by asking if they were willing to talk, the very first thing, and I have already explained that I reached out in this way because things had deteriorated rapidly today as the person demonstrated that they could not use the WP platform well.

You are continuing to strain to frame this negatively. You are also continuing to assert "workplace", multiple times. (I don't know if it is any better than "at home" or "on their personal cellphone". I have no idea what the number was that I called and am uncertain on what basis you keep making the "workplace" claim.) Jytdog (talk) 08:04, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

And your opening statement is 100% about this specific situation. Not a general discussion, as you just stated. Jytdog (talk) 08:10, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

If I wanted it to be about you, I would have mentioned you. I didn't. If you hadn't come in and said "this is about me" I would not have mentioned you at all. I understand why you are saying you contacted the editor. My problem is not why you contacted the editor, but how. And the general issue is under what circumstances someone should be contacting an editor in real life when their contact details have not been provided on wiki. - Bilby (talk)

I should have commented on the "track down" framing. The phone number is in the exhibition booth description that the person referred to. There was one step, not several. No "tracking down". And there was no intention on my part, whatsoever, to actually find their phone number. It was there and I was already aware of it when things rapidly deteriorated yesterday and I asked myself what alternatives there were to on-WP communication.

If you had done this with good faith, you would have reached out to me to hear what happened and posted a neutral summary of what happened as best you could. I can't help but see your actual posting as a continuation of your bizarre behavior toward me over the last year. Whatever - you did what you did and I will continue trying to avoid interacting with you.

What I asked myself, is what was this person's intention in writing this? That was definitely a "here is my real world bona fides" sort of thing which is why this is not OUTING. Calling the person was a high risk thing to do for sure. If it would have gone well -- if the person had come away understanding how we use MEDRS and what they were doing wrong -- it would have been good for everybody. However I should have a) had my act way more together in the call instead of getting upset by the person's combativeness and b) beforehand, considered the risk that (i) it would go south (ii) it would be badly received by the person afterwards if it went south; (iii) considered how it could be framed here. Considering those things now, I would not have done it and I will not be be trying that again. Jytdog (talk) 16:26, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Jytdog, really? Even if you're trying to be helpful this is not cool. Today I got an email from someone, not through the system, who had found my email address and threatened me. A few years ago, before I was an admin, some dude who'd been advertising himself on Misplaced Pages found my office phone number and called me at work. These things are scary, like real fucking scary. Please don't do that kind of thing, ever. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I am hearing what people are saying. I should not have taken the risk and will not do so again. Jytdog (talk) 16:34, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I am glad to hear that... --kelapstick 18:24, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

A request for arbitration regarding Jytdog's actions has been filed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Jytdog by There'sNoTime. Thryduulf (talk) 22:18, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• I observe that Jytdog's comment just above, , was timestamped at 16:34, 27 November 2018. The original, indefinite block was issued at 20:47, slightly more than four hours later, per the block log. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Off-wiki contact (the general case)

• Calling another editor over the phone for the first time is a stronger form of contact than usual. It can be perceived positively or negatively, depending on whether the contacted person is satisfied or not with the result, how unexpected it is to them that their contact details were found, etc.
  I actually think that the "workplace" point is not entirely irrelevant: with cultural institutions, for instance, it's not uncommon to go out of our way to help someone who we feel may be unaccustomed to on-wiki processes. Some of them may expect to serve and interact with the public as part of their work; it's not the same as being called at the office for an edit you made in the evening about a personal interest, or vice versa. Nemo 10:48, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Entirely inappropriate. Looking up an editor's undisclosed personal info to contact them about a dispute, even if you're pulling that info from freely-available sources, is 100% cyberstalking, creepy as hell, and disgusting. This has happened to me exactly twice, both times at work, and the police were called both times as well as contacting WMF Legal, and I would advise any editor who gets an unsolicited off-wiki contact to do the same. If you're an editor doing this you should be sitebanned. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 11:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
  • For clarity, what WP policy or what law has been violated? Also, has there been a specific claim of harassment on the part of the other party? This has been brought by a third party asking general questions.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 12:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
    • @Borean Hunter: I read Ivanvector's comments as being about the general case in response to the general questions. In the general case I also agree that unsolicited contacting of another editor, regarding any Misplaced Pages matter, using any contact method they have not explicitly made available on wiki (or to you specifically) is an example of Misplaced Pages:Off-wiki harassment - doubly so if you are involved in a dispute with them, regardless of the circumstances of that dispute. What is "made available on wiki" can be a grey area, but if they've posted a link to their/their organisation's website which has a prominent contacts page then using the methods listed on that page would not involve stalking but might still be inappropriate and could still be perceived as harassment (depending on the context). If you have to actively search or dig for the contact details though then that is never appropriate. Anyone intentionally stalking or otherwise harassing another editor should indeed be site banned - this should be reported to the arbitration committee (by email in most cases). Thryduulf (talk) 13:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• If the claim is that laws were violated, the editor who was harassed off-site should seek legal counsel in their jurisdiction (not a legal threat, generic advice I would give anyone who feels they are facing off-wiki harassment.)If they feel the contact violated our norms on harassment they should contact the arbitration committee, who are the only body able to fully deal with this on-wiki. We shouldn’t be using this talk page to decide a particular case, and that’s kinda what’s happening here. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:48, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• WP:OWH is only relevant if the off-wiki contact is actually harrassment. Of which there is no evidence here. Unless you are going to take the extreme view that merely talking to someone off-wiki about a dispute they are engaged in consitutes harrassment, which would be idiotic. WP:OWH directly links to WP:NPA as an example. Where someone is open about their identity it is not cyberstalking. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
  • (a reminder that I'm speaking only about the general case) Just because somebody is open about their identity does not mean they automatically consent to being contacted off-wiki, either generally or by specific methods and/or about all matters. If they have made a phone number clearly available to editors then that is different to an editor who is public about their real name and employer being telephoned at work via the company switchboard regarding matters unrelated to their employment which is different again to calling someone on a personal phone number you found via the website of a local community organisation they volunteer for, which you found via a mention on their social media profile, which you found via searching on their name (mentioned on their userpage) and location (which you inferred from a discussion on the talk page of the article about that place). The latter is unquestionably stalking and unequestionably a site-banning offence, but as TB notes it is the arbitration committee who are the only people able to determine what the full circumstances were. Thryduulf (talk) 14:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages is an open-access 'discussion is required' project. Consent is implicit just by contributing that you may be contacted about your contributions. It may be an oversight in that policy does not explicitly lay out the only means of that contact, but currently none of the relevant policies forbid it. Editors currently use (amongst others) direct email, facebook (and other social media), public events, mailing lists, IRC etc to co-ordinate and discuss editing. If (as you seem to be saying) an editor has to explicitly consent in advance to being contacted by a specific method or it constitutes harrassment (not anything that is reflected in policy anywhere) you will need to get that agreed to by the community and nailed in policy before ARBCOM can touch it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:07, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Discussion may be required but not by phone. Phone calls are different. Paul August ☎ 17:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

That is not currently a position reflected in policy nor are there any restrictions on any other method as the restrictions on harrassment are rightly concerned with the motive, not the method. I am not saying it *shouldnt* be, but it currently isnt. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:24, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Some things should go without saying. Paul August ☎ 17:34, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes however 'some things' are not set up to be judged by a pseudo-legalistic body which may result in someone being labelled a harrasser under a definition that is not in line with either common usage or legal ones. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:41, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Only in death: what part of using someone's personal information, that they have not chosen to share with you, to contact them in a manner they nave not consented to is not harassment? Thryduulf (talk) 17:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Pretty simple really, every single reputable definition of 'harrassment' is taking an action where it is known in advance that the action is unwanted. Where there is no mechanism or requirement by which people give or reject consent, you certainly cannot say they have explicitly denied to be contacted in any manner except through their talkpage. You cant say they have implicitly rejected contact when they have signed up on a collaborative website thats core principles are open discussion. Especially when editors routinely utilise other methods. ENWP does not require that people give consent in advance to being contacted by (insert X method here) so you cannot call it harrassment just for intiating contact when someone has not said they dont want to be contacted. You cant imply something when you havnt even asked the question in the first place. There are rules and laws about explicit & implied consent, being added to marketing mailing lists when purchasing goods requires explicit consent as one example, but unsolicited contact is not remotely similar to harrassment and to suggest they are the same thing both weakens the definition of actual harrassment and would be borderline defamatory depending on how and who it was applied to. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Only in death: Regarding discussion and consent for contact, this has already been fully refused below by Ivanvector (see the comment beginning "Misplaced Pages is a "discussion is required" project, sure,"). Tryptofish's comment starting "I'm speaking here of the general case. I'm late to this discussion," is also very much relevant. There ins't a need for me to say much more but your entire comment is missing the concept of reasonable expectation. Even if you don't know something will be poorly received it is still harassment if you could and should have had a reasonable expectation that it would be. If you supply an email address and enable email on your account it is reasonable to expect that other editors might contact you by email. There is though no reasonable expectation of contact by phone. I've been editing Misplaced Pages nearly 14 years, and only three has another edit has contacted me by phone about on-wiki matters without it being prearranged. The first two were when I was on arbcom and the person calling me was a fellow arbitrator and I had made my phone number available to other arbitrators and explicitly noted that I was happy to receive phone calls from them. On the only other occasion I was contacted by my partner, who is also a Wikipedian and someone I've had countless phone calls with before and since. Thryduulf (talk) 22:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• I strongly agree with what Thryduulf has written above. Let me share a painful personal anecdote. Many years ago, I learned a hard lesson and lost a friend. I was very much worried about the health of a dear Wiki-friend who wasn't editing, and email correspondent who wasn't responding to emails. We had shared real names and other personal info, so it was easy to find their phone number and give them a call. They were shocked and angry that I had done so. Even though we were close wiki-friends, nevertheless they found a phone call a terrible invasion of their privacy. Looking back, it now seems obvious to me why. So if such an intrusion can feel deeply creepy, even from a worried "friend" how would it likely feel from a stranger? Paul August ☎ 16:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Paul August, yes--same here, with a fellow admin whom I didn't know personally, who was reported dead. I had sleuthed around and found his wife's email address, if I remember correctly, but procrastinated for a week, asking other people (I think I ask my fellow arbs, back two years ago) about what to do, and I felt terrible doing it. Fortunately they took it well, and the guy was alive and kicking still. But this is something that should NEVER be done lightly. Thank you for sharing. Drmies (talk) 16:13, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• It sounds like underlying question is "Is it ever appropriate to make an unsolicited phone call to another Misplaced Pages Editor to discuss their edits, without their advanced permission?" The answer to that is "Unequivocally, no." The fact that this is actually a question that is being asked is, in my mind, ridiculous. --kelapstick 18:22, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Entirely inappropriate, per all those above. Any kind of "I know where you live" behaviour (provided it's proved that editor A has actually initiated real life contact with editor B against editor B's wishes, as there's always going to be the possibility that editor B is trying to get editor A in trouble) should result in an instant and permanent site ban. (I'm reminded of an old case where one editor was emailing another photographs of the outside of their house; yes, the editor in question's identity wasn't secret, but it was still a truly weirdo thing to do.) The sole exception I can see is that in some extreme circumstances such as long-term TOU violations, it might be appropriate to contact someone either to begin legal proceedings or issue a formal cease-and-desist—and I can see theoretical instances where when someone is disrupting Misplaced Pages from a work computer it would be appropriate to contact their employer—but both of those sets of circumstances should only be done by the WMF themselves as they have the legal teams to decide what is and isn't appropriate and necessary. ‑ Iridescent 18:26, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Misplaced Pages is a "discussion is required" project, sure, but one's responsibility to respond to discussions on Misplaced Pages ends with the website. "Discussion is required" means that if you don't respond to a discussion you might lose your editing privileges. "Discussion is required" does not mean that if you don't respond then you'll have strangers on the internet looking up your personal information to contact your employer or your family, or, say, showing up at your home. And no, it's not a leap at all to think that someone who has gone to the trouble of looking up your info and thinks it's okay to call you uninvited won't also show up at your house uninvited. You know that Gamergaters have tried to kill people over shit like this, right? And those incidents are still happening? Editors should have a reasonable expectation that those kinds of things are not going to happen as a result of not answering a question here, and should be able to expect that we will react if it does happen. It is incredibly disappointing that some people think this is at all okay, for one thing, and also disappointing that we might actually have to write this into a policy for some people to realize it's a serious invasion of privacy and a fucking creepy thing to do to someone. There are awful people on the internet but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate it here. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:28, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• The timing of this is interesting to me as I just spent about an hour on the phone talking to an editor. The situation isn't parallel, as they reached out to me and requested the phone call, but I mention it as anecdotal evidence that not everyone finds phone calls unwelcome. That shouldn't surprise anyone, but given two heartfelt anecdotes about unwelcome phone calls, I wanted to provide some perspective, and make sure that no one leads to the conclusion that all phone calls are unwelcome. Indeed, as an active OTRS agent, hardly a day goes by that I don't field a plea from someone to give them a call.

The challenge, of course, is that some phone calls are unwelcome, some are welcome or neutral, but it's virtually impossible to determine in advance what the reaction might be in any particular situation. That's a good reason for extreme caution.

However, let's be careful not to overreact. I have enormous respect for kelapstick, but the suggestion that the answer to the question "Is it ever appropriate to make an unsolicited phone call to another Misplaced Pages Editor to discuss their edits, without their advanced permission?" is an unequivocal no, is an overstatement. Imagine a situation where someone invites a phone call, that phone call takes place, and the issue is resolved. Some time later, you note that the editor is running into some difficulty, and you think that calling them to talk about it may help. You call them and help them and they are thankful. Yet, that second phone call is technically unsolicited. It's an overstatement to say that it's unequivocally wrong.

In this particular situation the editor in question had posted some information that contained a phone number. Is that a solicitation? Reasonable people can differ. Personally, I would favor an approach where editor A posts a message on the talk page of editor B, explaining that they have access to the phone number of editor A and plan to call to help solve the problem unless they are explicitly told not to call. I would find that an acceptable circumstance, yet it would technically be an unsolicited phone call.

We probably ought to work out a formal protocol, but let's be careful not to overreact. As I mentioned in my previous paragraph, had I been solicited for advice by Jytdog, I would've suggested a slightly different sequence, but given that the first words of the phone call were to ask permission to continue and granted, my view is that the action was justified. We may want to modify how such a situation should be handled in the future but I'll push back against anyone who says Jytdog was not just wrong but should've known better.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:45, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick, I don't believe for one second that you genuinely can't see the difference between "Hi, I don't know if you remember me, we met in the bar a few nights ago and you gave me your number" and "Hi, you don't know me but I saw you in the bar and liked the look of you, so I found out your name and went home and Googled it until I found your number".

Color me puzzled. Obviously those two situations are different. Neither matches my (original, now modified) understanding of this situation. Following your analogy, it would be, "Hi, I don't know if you remember me, we met in the bar a few nights ago and you handed out a flyer that had your phone number on it". That said, when I responded, I thought the phone number was on material linked, and I now see one had to take an extra step to track it down.--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Only in death, in this case it doesn't make the slightest difference what policy says. We're talking about something that's inherently unethical; that we don't have a formal policy saying "it is not appropriate to track down editors' real-life identities and stalk them" is owing to the fact that when the policies were written, it was assumed that no sane person would think otherwise. We likewise don't have an explicit policy banning editors from mailing dog-turds to the Wikimedia Foundation or from replacing their userpage with a 5000px-width image of themselves having sex with a dead badger; it doesn't mean either is considered acceptable. ‑ Iridescent 20:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Iridescent That is precisely what I wanted to say, you are just better at expressing yourself than I am. --kelapstick 20:24, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• I'm speaking here of the general case. I'm late to this discussion, but I would like to offer my take on the general case – to some extent repeating what other editors have said, but putting things together in the way that I see it. If an editor has indicated that they would like to get a phone call, or has done so in the past and common sense indicates that they would also like a phone call again, then there is nothing wrong with contacting them. If an editor has posted some personal information onsite, it is acceptable to be aware of that specific information. If an editor has posted some personal information onsite, it is never acceptable to use that information to obtain any other personal information that was not voluntarily posted. (There can be an exception in situations of personal jeopardy urgently requiring outreach to the editor.) To act on personal information that was not posted onsite is harassment, particularly so in cases where the editors are in any sort of dispute or where there is any kind of indication (such as not enabling email) that they are not welcoming contact. That kind of harassment can be very disturbing to the victim. Even when an editor uses another editor's posted information to try to better understand an editing situation, and in the course of doing so comes across additional personal information, that non-posted personal information is off-limits.

Now that said, it is very dismaying to me to see numerous users, including experienced administrators who should know better, assert that this is something that should always lead to a rapid indefinite block. There is a difference between a user who credibly says that they regret what they did and will never do it again, and a user who is acting out of malice (although there should not be much allowance of repeat behavior). Admins should always evaluate whether or not a block is needed. WP:BEFOREBLOCK says that, as a matter of policy. Frankly, I tend to think that issuance of an "automatic" block can be justification for desysopping. For whatever reason, the harassment policy brings out suspension-of-thoughtfulness in too many users; get over yourselves. And saying, in effect, that when editors in a discussion have differing views, no sane person could disagree with one view, is a violation of WP:NPA. Of course there are some things that can go without saying. But when various editors indicate in good faith that they have differing takes on something, then that makes it something that might not go without saying. What is obvious to you is not always obvious to someone else, and that does not automatically make them insane. So maybe we should look at clarifying some of the wording of policy about off-wiki harassment. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Tryptofish, is there a discussion taking place somewhere else? There is not a single person in this thread asserting that this is something that should always lead to a rapid indefinite block; indeed, thus far you're the only person even to use the words "indefinite" or "block". (There are a lot of people saying off-wiki conduct is inappropriate, but as far as I can see nobody except you is thinking about whether and how sanctions should be used.) ‑ Iridescent 22:27, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Keeping this to the general case, I'm glad to hear that. Please let me change that wording to "an instant and permanent site ban". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Then I suppose I should clarify that my earlier comment that such activity is a site-bannable offense was meant in the general sense, but of course not automatic. Few things call for automatic sanctions. An editor who makes a habit of contacting other editors in ways that ought reasonably to be seen as inappropriate may be someone who should not be allowed to edit here, but like most things that's case-by-case. I feel that it should be common sense (and basic human decency) not to contact people in ways which they have not given explicit permission, and that decent human beings ought to know better without having it written into a policy, but my faith in humanity has been challenged a lot this week. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 22:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Note that my "immediate site ban" comment was specifically aimed at Any kind of "I know where you live" behaviour and not just being inappropriate. I don't think you were around for the incident I have in mind, but anyone who was will know immediately to what I'm referring (and why I'm being slightly cryptic). We have empirical evidence for what is the worst that can happen when on-wiki disputes spill into real life, and why we should take any means necessary to prevent them doing so. ‑ Iridescent 22:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, both of you, for these additional replies. I agree with you both. (I myself can be a bit cryptic about an "automatic" block with which I am familiar.) But I think this illustrates my point that some things that are obvious to you might not be obvious to someone else. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Arguing for zero contact by means other than Misplaced Pages is not how academia works. I have emailed multiple owners of medical images (be they people or institutions) asking if they would be willing to release them under an open license. Images were up for deletion and it was unclear if the uploader was the owner (ie they could have been a new Wikipedian or someone could have been trying to infringe upon their copyright). Not a fan of phone calls generally but that is just me. I have had a user I was involved in a dispute with call me. Didn't resolve the dispute, did not see it as a big deal. My phone number is on my publications but not on Misplaced Pages. I see the content of the contact to be a bigger concern and the issue with a phone call is you do not have documentation. So yes would be supportive of a policy disallowing unrequested "voice / audio contact" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:10, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Jytdog queried the subject after the phone call had been initiated to determine whether or not they could continue the call. I would question the reliability of an answer given under those circumstances. Much research has gone into what's known as the startle effect and the consequences that may occur to a person who is, for whatever reason, startled. Research particularly into pilots in training has shown that pilots who are startled by flashing claxons and alarms tend to carry out incorrect responses to certain actions in the cockpit. Somehow, this startle effect blocks or temporarily causes mild confusion or delay in carrying out a correct response. Even those pilots who previously knew a correct response would nonetheless carry out the incorrect response after being startled. I believe everyone here can recall their own personal reactions to being startled where they found it subsequently more difficult to carry out what they thought was the right action or where it took them longer to perform it. I can only assume that when this person answered the phone, the surprise at finding out who had called effected upon them a mild startle reaction, and their answer to the question "May I continue the call" was not the answer they intended to give. The chances for a more accurate answer might be obtained before making any such contact, while the person is not under the influence of a startle effect, especially in live circumstances such as phone calls. That being said, I hope Jytdog returns to Misplaced Pages soon where his work is much needed.  Spintendo  00:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

References

1. Armus, Harvard L.; Guinan, James F. (1963). "Effect of conflict on the startle reaction". PsycEXTRA Dataset. doi:10.1037/e666092011-006.
2. Grillon, Christian (1996). "Context and startle: Effect of explicit and contextual cue conditioning following paired vs. unpaired training". PsycEXTRA Dataset. doi:10.1037/e526132012-158.

• I'm going to bring a note of "genderness" to this conversation - as a female ... I do not appreciate uninvited phone calls. I would find a wikipedia editor contacting me out of the blue by phone (not email, but phone) based off of some sleuthing they did by connecting my name with a phone number to be very creepy and I'm betting that a significant number of female editors would feel the same. And I'm not especially someone who has concerns about stalkers or other harassment in my outside-wiki life. I can only imagine how a woman editor who perhaps had experienced a stalking situation in their life would feel to be contacted out of the blue by someone who wanted to discuss their wiki-editing ... and finding out that that other person had gone hunting to find their phone number. (And I can easily say that at least a third if not half of my female friends have had at least one situation in their lives where they were stalked or harassed.) I'm very concerned that some editors don't seem to think that this behavior is concerning or creepy. Just shows how differently men often approach things - and how little the concerns of women about this behavior actually impinge on some folks' thinking. This doesn't mean that if an editor has email enabled (as I do), that they shouldn't be contacted, but if an editor does NOT have email enabled, it's quite likely that they don't desire contact outside wikipedia-space and that choice should be respected. Going beyond that to searching out a phone number from clues left behind on wiki is well beyond the pale, in my mind. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:58, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• • Damn straight!!! Like Ealdgyth and Iri have said. Let me put it this way. No one has ever contacted me via phone unless we had previously agreed via email or other private messaging system to talk on the phone. No one. Not in 12 years of WP editing. Like Ealdgyth, I am not a person who has had concerns about stalkers in my real life, but I have chosen to keep my real-life identity minimal on WP. And let me tell you, the first time someone traced my real-life identity off-wiki at all, I was completely freaked out -- and they were just someone who was a new editor and pissed off at me -- and all they did was post my real name. By the time I was outed off-wiki during my RfA with outing here as well, I was more or less used to these little hiccup stalkers, but I was still quite concerned when a now-indeffed editor made edits that were basically saying "I know where you live and where you work". So yes, unsolicited off-wiki communication other than by means authorized by WP (i.e. email enabled or IRC or something the editor opts into using) IS HARASSMENT. End of story. If someone I didn't know called me about a WP edit without some prior communication either via enabled email or via a request on-wiki, I would not merely be creeped out, there's a better than 50-50 chance I'd call the cops. It's wrong to contact them unless they affirmatively agree to be contacted. Montanabw 03:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I have sometimes contacted strangers by telephone, on Misplaced Pages-related matters, using publicly available telephone numbers. It has never occurred to me that this might be a problem, and the people involved have never shown any sign of regarding it as a problem. I understand that some people don't like to be telephoned by strangers; but they generally don't permit their numbers to be published. Maproom (talk) 10:29, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Suggested revision

Based on the discussion just above, I have a suggestion. Here is what WP:OWH says, with the sentence in green my suggested addition:

Harassment of other Wikipedians in forums not controlled by the Wikimedia Foundation creates doubt as to whether an editor's on-wiki actions are conducted in good faith. Contacting another editor off-site using contact information that they have not made available on-site can be a particularly onerous odious form of harassment. Off-wiki harassment will be regarded as an aggravating factor by administrators and is admissible evidence in the dispute-resolution process, including Arbitration cases. In some cases, the evidence will be submitted by private email. As is the case with on-wiki harassment, off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning. Off-wiki privacy violations shall be dealt with particularly severely.

Harassment of other Wikipedians through the use of external links is considered equivalent to the posting of personal attacks on Misplaced Pages.

--Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Rather than a "can be" statement, we should simple state "Calling someone without their explicit consent before hand is deemed not appropriate."

With respect to leaving someone a message on FB on contacted them by email I think we should seperate out that discussion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:34, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support the change, per my comments above. I don't think that separating out other forms of unwelcome inappropriate contact is suitable for the policy - inappropriate external contact is inappropriate external contact, whether that's a phone call, non-Misplaced Pages email, Facebook message, SMS message, paper mail, personal contact, whatever. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 23:40, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Well one does not know beforehand if the contact will be welcome or unwelcome. Both types of voice contact IMO should be disallowed without explicet agreement. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    • One ought to presume contact is unwelcome if it has not been explicitly invited. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 16:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) This doesn't seem to jibe with the rest of the policy page, which defines harassment as a pattern of repeated offensive behaviour. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I wanted to point that out. Also, "onerous" might not be the word you're looking for. Bradv 🍁 23:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• I absolutely agree with the intent behind this change, but I'm not certain the wording is quite right. I can't quite put my finger on why but Bradv's comments may be part of it. I need sleep though and so I'll look afresh tomorrow. Thryduulf (talk) 00:06, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• The mot juste is egregious. --RexxS (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• I wouldn't characterize it as "particularly onerous", as that seems to say that it is worse than other forms, when the circumstances can vary widely. Just make it clear that some recipients of such calls may feel threatened or outed by the call, and that it is not permitted. bd2412 T 04:47, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• The wording is slightly off; as worded if I were to reply to somebody on Wikipediocracy about their on-wiki edits that would be "onerous harassment", regardless of the message. Obviously replying to a person on a web forum where that person identifies as being a specific Wiki editor is different than tracking down their phone number; the wording should reflect that. Perhaps "attempting to contact editors in an unexpected manner"? power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• The whole section is in desperate need of a re-write. Harassment of other Wikipedians in forums not controlled by the Wikimedia Foundation creates doubt as to whether an editor's on-wiki actions are conducted in good faith. Seriously? No, it doesn't "create doubt"! It's outright prohibited And no, it's not can be, it is! And yes, egregious is the word, not onerous. - Ryk72 11:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• This is a good start, but "particularly onerous" should just be dropped. - MrX 🖋 12:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with others that this needs a more extensive re-write. I also think that the view that Jytdog engaged in harassment simply because he made the phone call is wrong and misrepresents what harassment actually is. So, here's a proposal for consideration:

Harassment of other Wikipedians is absolutely prohibited. Harassment occurring online in forums not controlled by the Wikimedia Foundation or in the "real world" are sanctionable on-wiki and may also result in off-wiki consequences. Reports of inappropriate off-wiki behaviour creates doubts as to whether an editor's on-wiki actions are conducted in good faith. Off-wiki attacks, including through the use of external links, are considered personal attacks and may be regarded as an aggravating factor by administrators and is admissible evidence in the dispute-resolution process, including Arbitration cases. In some cases, the evidence should be submitted by private email – outing remains prohibited. As is the case with on-wiki harassment, off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning. Off-wiki privacy violations shall be dealt with particularly severely.

If an editor wishes private contact with another editor, emailing through the Misplaced Pages interface is the preferred method. Posting to external forums (such as Wikipediocracy) where accounts are explicitly linked to on-wiki identities is also acceptable. In some cases, editors provide other contact information on wiki, or provide sufficient information for contact information to be located. Posting such information on-wiki is prohibited under the outing policy, and using such information to initiate contact without seeking explicit permission (such as by asking at a user talk page) is strongly discouraged. Even if the message sent is innocuous, such contact may be unwelcome; it could create concerns about privacy, safety, and even be perceived as threatening – and on-wiki consequences are certainly possible if the recipient of such a message makes an on-wiki complaint.

Obviously, as a first draft, there may be many suggested changes, comments, criticisms, etc. – all welcome. EdChem (talk) 12:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

The first draft is appreciated. But, let's be entirely clear - if a Misplaced Pages editor makes unsolicited phone calls to another editor on a phone number that they have not explicitly provided on Wiki, it is an act of harassment - intent is immaterial; how the call is received is immaterial - it is an act of harassment. Anyone who believes otherwise is misguided, misinformed, misaligned, or malicious.
Now, there are parts of what is proposed above which are good. But the whole remains unpolished and full of equivocation. I would be happy to workshop the text, but we will not be ending up with something which provides a posteriori excuse of the recent events; and we will not be ending up with something that equivocates about that with discouraged and maybe and could and perceived and possible and whatnot.
It's harassment. It's wrong. It needs no hedges. - Ryk72 13:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Ryk72, you have now posted both here and at the RfAr that anyone who disagrees with you misguided, misinformed, misaligned, or malicious. At RfAr, it was directly generally. Here, it is pretty clearly directed at me specifically. We disagree, that doesn't make me a bad person nor a fool. Please try to express yourself without the assertions that you must be right and the unpleasant comments / personal attacks. EdChem (talk) 14:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

EdChem My posting of the comment at both locations is not a coincidence; I consider it apropos to both discussions. My comment here is most certainly not directed at you specifically. There are a number of editors above who have made comment to indicate that the behaviour, or forms thereof, is acceptable to them; I most certainly disagree with them all. I do not, however, in anyway, assert that that makes them a bad person nor a fool. If such was your reading, then you have my heartfelt apology for my lack of clarity. I do assert, however, equally heartily, that those editors are incorrect; and I do couch it as fact.
I do not wish to make further picking of bones, and would rather move forward on workshopping policy. I think your version is better than that which went before, but don't see editing a version on this Talk page to be optimal; and don't see writing a long list of proposed changes to be optimal either. Could we put something on a draft page and talk about it? Or could we put something in a separate section to be edited by all? - Ryk72 14:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

"Explicitly provided on-wiki" should be something like "Explicitly provided or linked to on-wiki" as someone saying "please phone me, my contact details are here: <link to external page>" is obviously not going to be harassment if anyone follows up on it. "In some cases, editors provide other contact information on wiki, or provide sufficient information for contact information to be located. Posting such information on-wiki is prohibited under the outing policy, and using such information to initiate contact without seeking explicit permission (such as by asking at a user talk page) is strongly discouraged." is poorly worded - it implies that it is outing to post your own contact details on-wiki (it isn't, obviously) whereas what is prohibited is posting someone else's contact information on-wiki that they did not, even if it was clearly linked to (and even then it's not an absolute - e.g. the information posted could be used to verify that a notable person is represented by a particular agent/agency). Also it is not harassment to contact someone unsolicited using methods other than special:emailuser if contact by that method has been invited on-wiki (see e.g. user:Thryduulf/Contact, someone contacting me directly using either email address listed on that page is fine). I don't know how to reword to reflect this without being very clumsy though. Thryduulf (talk) 14:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• The second 'graph contradicts itself in places. I had notes to suggest but I think I'll just propose an alternative instead:

If an editor wishes private contact with another editor, emailing through the Misplaced Pages interface is the preferred method. In some cases, editors provide other contact information on wiki or links to their information elsewhere. Contacting a user through external forums (such as Wikipediocracy) where accounts are explicitly linked to on-wiki identities is also acceptable. Posting another user's personal information anywhere on Misplaced Pages is strictly prohibited under the outing policy, and using undisclosed information to initiate contact without gaining explicit permission (such as by asking at a user's talk page) is prohibited. Even if the message sent is innocuous, such contact may be unwelcome; it could create concerns about privacy, safety, and even be perceived as threatening. Users who are contacted through inappropriate means should report occurrences privately to the Arbitration Committee or Misplaced Pages:Emergency.

-- For the sake of brevity I dropped the bit about consequences. In my mind, doing something that we recommend be reported to the emergency response team ought to carry a reasonable expectation of severe sanctions. But then again, we're having this discussion. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 16:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• I don't have any problem with this addition per se. But it might be more useful to include language to the effect that "the forms of harassment delineated in this policy are not meant to be a complete list. Common sense dictates that other forms of behavior not listed are unwelcome and harassing and can subject editors to penalties. Administrators need to review the circumstances on a case-by-case basis." We don't want editors to say, "look, I can do it as it is not on the list." Coretheapple (talk) 16:36, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I would not want to see us list every possible way that someone could be inappropriately contacted. WP:CIR applies.- MrX 🖋 19:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• The line on forums does not need to be mentioned. Also, my pet peeve about somehow pretending Wikipediocracy is special and not an external site that is subject to all the same guidelines about external sites as every other external site. It isn't, and we've had issues recently with people not understanding that in regards to linking to external identities. It should not be mentioned explicitly in policy.Here's the thing: if two people are members of some other online community that has a PM option, and they deduce that they're the same person on Misplaced Pages, there is no problem PMing them there being all "Hey, I see you're X on WP based on what you say here."What is a problem is someone looking up my Facebook account and adding me as a friend and PMing me there about a block I made. If that happens, I'm calling the cops. Having a specific line about forums creates too big of an exemption and would open the floodgates to some really unpleasant behavior and have situations similar to the current arb case where people misread what should be clear from the general principles of this policy as allowing them to do something that they shouldn't do. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:10, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The second sentence is missing a key clause about it being acceptable to use these methods, I'd also recommend making it clear we're talking about very clear links not following a chain of information. My suggested wording (with additions in italics) is: "In some cases, editors provide other contact information on wiki or clear links to their information elsewhere, making contact using these methods is usually acceptable provided common sense is used and any specific requests are complied with. If It is unclear whether a clear link was intended, assume it was not.". However this is very clunky and could probably be improved. The rest is good. Thryduulf (talk) 19:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Everyone who has pointed out that "onerous" was inept, that's so true, and I have been self-dope-slapping ever since shortly after I logged off last night. I meant "odious". Anyway, that was only an initial suggestion, and I appreciate how other editors are working beyond that, because I was primarily concerned with getting a discussion going. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Thanks to everyone who has commented and suggested changes / alternatives. I think most are definite improvements to what I proposed. A couple of specific thoughts:
  • @TonyBallioni: FYI, I included Wikipediocracy as an example as I was looking to mention acceptable options other than email through WP. With the reorganising suggested by Ivanvector and some form of the additions from Thryduulf, such an example is not needed. I'm fine with dropping mention of that site or any other external WP review forum in favour of some version of Thryduulf's suggestion. However, I do feel that your comment about "calling the cops" is over the top and fits with some over-reactions to Jytdog's actions. Calling the police to say something like "I was contacted on Facebook / by phone from a WP editor. I didn't give them my contact details. They asked if it was ok for us to discuss a disagreement we were having on WP. This is harassment. Please do something." will provoke questions like "Did you ask them to stop, or say no? If so, did they persist? Was the message threatening or abusive?" Unsolicited and even unwanted contact is not necessarily harassment and I strongly believe we should not have a policy that says otherwise. In my view, that opens up an undesirable interpretation that we use the term "harassment" for behaviours that are not, and in so doing we diminish the seriousness of unarguable harassment.
  • @Ryk72: I certainly agree that moving forward on workshopping any policy change is desirable. I appreciate your apology, though I do encourage you to reflect on the absolute nature of your position. I accept that you hold the view that I am incorrect and I have no problem with disagreement. However, I don't see the need to declare that all who disagree with you must be misguided, misinformed, misaligned, or malicious. From my perspective, it is you who are mistaken in overstating that intent is immaterial; how the call is received is immaterial - it is an act of harassment. In the specific case at issue, if Jytdog had persisted after being told that Beall4 did not wish to speak to him, that would have moved into harassment territory. As far as we know, what he did was to identify himself and request permission to have a discussion, and to continue only once that permission was granted. He should have waited for permission from his user talk page post, no question, but failing to do so does not (in my view) automatically move his actions into the category of harassment. If you consider my comment above to TonyBallioni, or a single unsolicited call from a telemarketer that was polite and ended when I stated that I was not interested, I hope you can see that alleging that it was harassment is diminishing the experiences people who are subjected to harassment within the more usual meaning of that term.
  • @Ivanvector: Thanks for your changes, they are definitely positive improvements. I am concerned, however, by changing "strongly discouraged" to "prohibited" in using undisclosed information to initiate contact without gaining explicit permission (such as by asking at a user's talk page) is prohibited. I keep thinking of the comment from Doc James about receiving such a call and having no problem with it, and I do believe that others may be similarly accepting of a polite phone call or other contact. On what grounds do we as Wikipedians have the right to prohibit a behaviour that is not experienced as harassment or seen as problematic by the recipient by declaring it to be harassment? Regarding "consequences", if you mean at the end of the second paragraph, I agree that it is not necessary, though I do wonder if moving As is the case with on-wiki harassment, off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning. Off-wiki privacy violations shall be dealt with particularly severely. to be a separate third paragraph might be appropriate. If you mean the mention of "off-wiki consequences" in the first paragraph, I was alluding to the fact that harassing phone calls can lead to police action and to legal consequences. Perhaps that is inelegantly worded or unclear, but I do think that possibility is worth a mention in some form.

Again, thanks to all who have commented. EdChem (talk) 22:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• I am not commenting about the case that gave rise to it, which I will do on the arb com page, but I consider it false that "if a Misplaced Pages editor makes unsolicited phone calls to another editor on a phone number that they have not explicitly provided on Wiki, it is an act of harassment - intent is immaterial; how the call is received is immaterial - it is an act of harassment. " As several people have pointed out, in situations involving schools and universities, this sort of call is not usually considered harassment (depending of course on what is said), and a number of us have regularly or occasionally done this, including myself. There are other situations also. Someone who is openly editing as a PR representative even if they do not give their phone number expects to get phone calls--it's part of their job. Someone editing openly from a business even if they do not give their phone calls expects to deal with people on the telephone. In none of these three cases would any of these people expect to get a email first. It's different of course for private individuals, or people being semi-anonymous. It's different for people editing about personal maters fro ma business address, even if they happen to have given their phone number. Some of it is generational--to people my age, a phone call, not a email , is the expected initial contact, and if we can deal with something over the phone, we do so. WP is somewhat of a special situation, since the expectation of privacy here is greater than almost anywhere else in the world --perhaps unrealistically so, but still, it's good that we maintain the principle, just like it's good that we maintain the principle of respecting copyright more than almost anywhere else. There are virtues in different channels. For almost everything here, I prefer email or postings, because I want to be exact , and I can revise them before I send them. But to explain a nuance or a misunderstanding, phone or in person is better.

We have a tendency to try to find bright line rules; I consider that almost always an error, for circumstances vary. There's a illusion that treating everything the same way makes for fairness--it is in my experience sometimes excuse for being oppressive and over-bearing.. We are humans dealing with humans,and are expected to make use of judgement. the pretended virtue of bright line rules is that it saves thinking; I consider that the opposite of a virtue. DGG ( talk ) 06:30, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Hello DGG, could you please help me to understand your comments above: when you say "openly editing from a business address" does that include someone posting "hey, I work for Major ISP Company, and this is wrong" on the talk page of the article for the employer? Is it okay to try to contact by phone a person who claims to be the subject of a BLP? (I'm going to hope you don't find that okay.) What about someone claiming to represent the subject of a BLP? How much digging for personal information is allowed? And under what circumstances do you think it is okay to call schools or universities? (I've been around a long time, and can't really think of an example for this.)

What I am thinking here is that it's not really okay for people to be calling someone who posts on Misplaced Pages without explicit ("here's my phone number") or implicit (phone number is posted on userpage) permission. I think it would make it infinitely easier for trolls and people looking for paid editing jobs to simply say "hi, I'm Joe from Misplaced Pages, here's what I can do for you" or something like that. I think we're opening ourselves up to some really serious harm to our reputation if we tell our editors it's just fine to call the PR company that's trying to get an article onto Misplaced Pages. For years and years, OTRS responders have been saying "no, it was probably someone scamming you" if they're asked about someone calling and saying they're from Misplaced Pages. There's a lot of value in that. There's a reason that the phone calls to police departments come from the WMF Trust & Safety Department, whose staff identities can be verified. Risker (talk) 07:33, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

We all seem to agree that "onerous" is the wrong word but I contend that "odious" is also the wrong word. It is a highly judgmental word with very heavy and emotive negative connotations. I suggest something like "unacceptable" instead. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:46, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• @DGG: The statement discussed is mine, and so I should answer for it. I thank you kindly for your considered words, as I thank EdChem and any other editors who have commented on the statement; the input is deeply appreciated. My statement is that if a Misplaced Pages editor makes unsolicited phone calls to another editor on a phone number that they have not explicitly provided on Wiki, it is an act of harassment - intent is immaterial; how the call is received is immaterial - it is an act of harassment. Comparing the statement to the various scenarios in which a phone call might reasonably be considered acceptable - those above, and those mentioned elsewhere - many are explicitly not covered by that statement. I believe that I have chosen my words carefully to achieve their intent.
  Stepping through some of them:
  a) A telemarketer, in their capacity as a telemarketer, cold calling a prospective customer is not a Misplaced Pages editor, and not covered. (They belong to the De'il and well may he take them).
  b) Situations involving schools & universities outside Misplaced Pages are not "a Misplaced Pages editor", and not covered - I accept statements that cold calls are acceptable in academic circles at face value, but what might be acceptable in one industry is not necessarily acceptable in another; not should we here be constrained by or beholden to what is acceptable to a subset of our community.
  c) For situations involving professorial staff being cold called in their capacity as Misplaced Pages editors to be known to be acceptable (on the basis that they are academics and that this behaviour is universally acceptable in academic circles) must involve them having identified themselves as individuals and as professorial staff and have provided sufficient details for them to be contacted - Name, School, Position, etc. That might be considered to provide an implied solicitation to be contacted; but explicit confirmation should still be sought, particularly, but not only, in situations where there has been an on-Wiki dispute. (I apologise if the wording there is strained, I hope the meaning is clear).
  d) For situations involving undergraduate students being cold called in their capacity as ... oh dear, no! just no!.
  e) Situations involving PR representatives being cold called in their capacity as Misplaced Pages editors require them having identified themselves as such and having provided sufficient details to be contacted and ... there may be some suggestion of an implied solicitation of contact, but explicit confirmation should still be sought, particularly (but not only) in situations where there has been an on-Wiki dispute.
  f) ... openly editing from a business ... identified themselves and provided sufficient details ... but explicit confirmation should still be sought, particularly (but not only) in situations where there has been an on-Wiki dispute.
  y) Misplaced Pages editors receiving email through the Email this user function do provide an implied solicitation of contact through that means.
  z) Misplaced Pages editors identifying themselves as such on other forums or social media ... implied solicitation of contact through that means (though social media may be a grey area for some. I note particularly the comments of TonyBallioni, above; those comments resonate. I do not (as yet) identify myself as Misplaced Pages editor Ryk72 on any other social media or forums, and would not expect to be contacted elsewhere about my activities here).
  I'll also draw some distinctions: Misplaced Pages is not the general world. Phone calls are indeed entirely reasonable ways of making even first contact in the real world. On Misplaced Pages we are already engaged in communication, using a medium for which there is implied consent (Misplaced Pages itself). It costs very little to use that communication medium to request or offer movement of a dialogue to an alternative medium, including phone calls, and to wait for affirmative consent. It doesn't require emails. It only takes a Talk page post, like this.
  It is a matter of having done the due diligence to ensure that a phone call is an acceptable means of communication. Without that due diligence, the cat is still in it's box, and we must assume that its state is "irate". This really is a case of needing to seek out affirmative consent; and it is incredibly low cost to do so.
  Again, I thank you for your thoughtful comments, and for the opportunity to clarify my intent. I also thank Risker for the comment above. I did have something slightly different drafted, but on reflection find full agreement with her.
  Finally, my statement does not seek to draw a bright line, but to find a place at which we make the incision whereby all of that which is antithetical to the good working and good name of this community is excised. We cannot do otherwise.
  While my intent is to be forthright on this matter, if it helps when reading to mentally wrap the statement in a "my opinion is" wrapper, then editors should feel free to do so. - Ryk72 08:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC) - reping Ryk72 09:50, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I would agree with most of your comments--I'll reply in more detail when I have time later today or tomorrow. But I want to say now that in (b), the school instructors in the educational courses are usually at least technically WP editors. And sometimes these course instructors are in fact undergraduate students acting as undergraduate teaching assistants. DGG ( talk ) 17:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Outreach observations

Experienced editors may not appreciate how difficult communication on Misplaced Pages is for a new editor. New editors are commonly shown how to use the visual editor but talk pages use the markup editor where features such as indents, pings and sigs are not obvious. Getting a user page organised with userboxes and other personal details also takes some time and experience as the interface provides no template or wizard to help with this – just a blank page. I am aware of these issues because I am often interacting with new editors at outreach events such as editathons.

For example, I helped recently at an event. This was ticketed using Eventbrite and there was related activity on social media such as Twitter – both of these are standard for such events in my experience. After the event, one of the new editors contacted me by direct message on Twitter because they "couldn't work out how to reply to you on Wiki". My Twitter account is not listed in my Misplaced Pages profile but there should be no question of sanctioning or scolding someone for contacting me in such circumstances. It is our policy that Misplaced Pages is not social media and so editors will naturally tend to use other tools to communicate and collaborate. Organisers of such events commonly suggest a hashtag and get the participants to use a collaborative tool such as Etherpad or an Outreach dashboard. We should not obstruct such activity with a presumption that editors must only use Misplaced Pages and email.

As another example, an author recently contacted me by email to ask permission to use a picture that I had taken and uploaded. I advised them that they didn't need permission and also advised them that there was a Wikimedian-in-Residence at their institution, who could help them with such issues. I provided contact details to put them in touch with each other and that all seemed fine.

As a third example, I attended the AGM for Wikimedia UK this year and spent some time chatting with a couple of other members after the event. We exchanged business cards and these naturally included a variety of contact details, including phone numbers. This information is not on our Misplaced Pages profile or page, nor should we expect it to be. The similar monthly London meetup is coming up soon – notice that that is organised on Meta, not Misplaced Pages.

So, our harassment policy should allow for the fact that editors may meet or communicate outside of Misplaced Pages and that this is not automatically creepy or unpleasant. Phrasing such as "off-site" should not be used in a narrow, restrictive way to prevent natural and normal communication by other means.

Andrew D. (talk) 10:47, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson: in many of those scenarios, the people being contacted have explicitly given the other person their contact information (e.g. exchanging business cards) and/or have made that information public (by connecting their twitter username, wikipedia username and real-life identity). If you publicly state that you are attending a wikimeet you are implicitly giving people permission to talk to you face to face at that meetup about your editing. Nobody is suggesting that harassment occurs if you contact someone with their permission. Thryduulf (talk) 20:13, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

The proposed text addition would forbid "contacting another editor off-site using contact information that they have not made available on-site...". The examples describe such situations and so demonstrate that the proposed text is unreasonable. Andrew D. (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• I will reiterate my comments at ARC and state that contacting another Misplaced Pages editor via off-wiki means without their consent (a means in which they have not provided on Misplaced Pages) is a serious issue. We have a communication method here on Misplaced Pages. If they do not respond then it stops there. If editors are disruptive, we have a means of recourse such as reverting, warnings, and blocking. Misplaced Pages editors should be able to come to Misplaced Pages and edit its content without fearing the possibility that they will be contacted in-person, by phone, or other means. While other professions or institutions are different and contact information is usually published accordingly, there are still rules that define what constitutes appropriate communication. In most cases, contacting them through other means they have not provided is inappropriate, such as home phone numbers. Harassment can be perceived or actual, and regardless of Misplaced Pages policy, anyone who inappropriately contacts another person could be subject to much greater repercussions than breaking Misplaced Pages rules. Mediawiki's Code of Conduct defines some forms of harassment: "Inappropriate or unwanted public or private communication, following, or any form of stalking." I recommend we consider something similar. Mkdw 21:29, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Every time there's a bit of one-off drama here, there's always this reactionary attempt to massively overcorrect, usually by means of zweihänder when a scalpel is all that is needed. Attempts to draw a hard line and define off-wiki communication attempts as "particularly odious harassment", or stating that "intent is immaterial; how the call is received is immaterial" are ridiculous, 'harassment' is not just some black and white concept that can be defined with blanket statements, and intent and context is always relevant and needs to be carefully examined in each individual case. For example, a good faith, if unwanted, outreach attempt to someone who has disclosed their identity is entirely different from contacting someone off-wiki to maliciously antagonize them, just because they slipped up and accidentally self-outed one time. Both incidents are inappropriate, but it's ridiculous to attempt to unambiguously equate them. The wording should take a moderate, neutral, generalized approach in discouraging unsolicited forms of off-wiki communication. There is no need to pre-emptively define any potential scenario with blanket statements.  Swarm  talk  22:03, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• I agree. The elephant in the room is the arbcom case. That's a total one-off, and apparently not an isolated event by any means. We can't "legislate" for very possible event or close "loopholes" in these policies. Policies are not legislation. Common sense also applies. So does competence. I agree that off-wiki communications can be terrible, and there are also circumstances I guess in which maybe they aren't so terrible. Why not simply acknowledge in this policy that the acts we are describing are not exhaustive? The very fact that we are here buys into the argument I have seen that something not being in this policy is a green light to do it, and that is bogus. This policy is fine as is. We can't "legislate" to deal with the possible future acts of editors who are intent on being harassers. Coretheapple (talk) 14:51, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Although I agree to some extent with both statements above, that we should not try to get overly precise or proceed too quickly, I also think recent events here do indicate some guideline and policy that may need supplementation or revision. The nature of harassment is better understood now than in the past, and there is a greater realization of the susceptibility to harassment, Over the period of time in which WP has existed there has been a considerable and desirable change in standards in society generally and on the internet in particular. Many of us are aware of things we might have thoughtlessly done 15 years ago that we would never do today. Thee has also been a long overdue and very desirable change in the makeup of the WP community, to include a much wider range of people and backgrounds than that most prominent at the very beginning. More specifically, as a starting point I certainly endorse Mkdw's proposed sentence above. There are of course additional things we will need to consider. DGG ( talk ) 20:15, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• I agree that the wording Mkdw put in red would be a perfectly OK bit of tinkering, and is in line with what I suggested earlier about the conduct listed in the policy not being exhaustive. It's not necessary, as we are all adults and know or should know what "harass" means, but certainly not a problem to add. As long it's understood in the arbcom case that this is not done because phoning people out of the blue was fine and no longer is. It was never acceptable and was always harassment and always will be. Coretheapple (talk) 01:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Endorse inclusion of Mkdw's red highlighted text. Do we also need a Harassment may include, but is not limited to, the following: or Examples include but are not limited to: (from mw.CoC) at the end of the first section of Harassment and disruption? - Ryk72 02:07, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Section break: suggested revision

I've been quietly watching this discussion for a while in order to get a feel for what other editors are thinking (and I'm quite past onerous, odious, odorous, and the rest). I'd like to suggest another draft, in which I'm trying to take into account all of the comments above, and in which I'm trying to keep the wording brief, rather than overly prescriptive. For comparison, the existing wording is on the left, and my proposed wording is on the right:

--Tryptofish (talk) 18:27, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• The current policy says "As is the case with on-wiki harassment, off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning." Isn't that enough? Why do we need new language? People know what harassment is. If they don't, if they have a problem in that area, they shouldn't be editing. Coretheapple (talk) 23:02, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

I guess that depends on whether or not we, collectively, want to make any revisions at all. As I read the sentence that you quote, it means that any kind of on-wiki harassment that is described elsewhere in the policy is also forbidden off-site. Since there is no way to place a telephone call using the Misplaced Pages editing interface, I suppose that means that phone calls are never considered to be off-wiki harassment. And we should also delete the existing language about external links. And we should also stubify the policy page to just say "Never harass anyone", because, after all, anyone who doesn't understand that must be a slobbering idiot. Now obviously I'm being sarcastic there, and I want to hasten to add that I don't mean it personally. But I'm making a serious point that sometimes it is not instruction creep to clarify some things, because even if they are obvious to you and me, they are in fact not obvious to someone else who isn't clueless. See also WP:LAZYLAZY. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:16, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

If we add the language in red quoted above prohibiting "Inappropriate or unwanted public or private communication, following, or any form of stalking" and add before the list of examples (see text in green above) "Harassment may include, but is not limited to, the following:" or "Examples include but are not limited to:" we'll probably be OK and accomplish the same objective. Coretheapple (talk) 17:08, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

That "red" language is right at the beginning, and I think it's more to-the-point than what we have now. Do you object to telling victims whom they should contact? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

"Intimidation" is specifically prohibited by this policy. I just think we're dealing with an extreme situation by filling a loophole that isn't there. Some editors like to intimidate; it's their style. You can write a policy as long as the Magna Carta and they'll still find a way to do it. As for "whom to contact," we already have a "dealing with harassment" section. Coretheapple (talk) 05:35, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I think we have each expressed ourselves, and it would be best if I not try to go around in circles with you over it. Given that many editors were just recently saying that they were in favor of some sort of addition, I hope to hear what other editors think. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

The concerns raised are serious and should be addressed, but we should be careful about the wording. As others have said, unsolicited offsite contact isn't necessarily a terrible thing. Although I can't see when it'd be appropriate for an editing dispute, I can imagine times where it might be appropriate to contact, for example, a photographer who uploads a JPEG in order to request the RAW file, or an academic who cites his paper in an edit, in order to request access to that paper. Benjamin (talk) 22:22, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

I think the determining factor there is less about being unsolicited, than about using non-posted contact information. In other words, it's fine to contact that photographer or academic using the email interface, but tracking down their contact information that they did not post here should be against policy.

Also, it looks to me like this discussion has been quiet for a while, and I hope that we can resume the discussion. I think that the individual case about Jytdog is now in the rear-view mirror, and I would hope that editors feel a bit more distance in order to consider these proposals as the general case. Perhaps some editors who have been angry at Jytdog can look at this without being influenced by their opinion of him. And quite a few editors expressed strong support for a revision earlier on, and I cannot tell whether they have changed their minds and now oppose it, or whether there just needs to be a reboot of this discussion. If nothing else, it increasingly seems to me that the existing wording is pretty bad ("creates doubt as to whether an editor's on-wiki actions are conducted in good faith": that's hardly the issue here!), and I hope that we can make that better. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:29, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

No, I think using off wiki contact information can be okay sometimes, as in the examples I mentioned. The determining factor would be if that contact information was meant to be public. Benjamin (talk) 00:18, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

We need a clear policy that the use of contact info that was not meant to be public is prohibited, and no, having your number in the phonebook does not count as "meant to be public". Tornado chaser (talk) 00:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree strongly with Tornado chaser that editors should not be making subjective judgments that something was "meant to be public": either it's been posted on-wiki or otherwise voluntarily communicated here, or it's off-limits. And the very fact of these comments seems to me to prove that this is not something that is self-evident to everyone, and that we need to revise the policy page to make it clear. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:35, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

There's a pretty significant difference between, say, a personal phone number found in a phone book and an institutional one found in a paper. Benjamin (talk) 15:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

@Benjaminikuta: There is, but those are two ends of a spectrum with no clear break - even institutional numbers are not a single thing (e.g. someone may have a number that gets through directly and another that goes via a secretary). How you found the paper also matters - if the paper is linked on their userpage that is very different to if you took three or four steps to find it. Thryduulf (talk) 01:02, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: Exactly, that's why we need to be careful not to make policy that's overly broad or absolute. The purpose of contact matters as well; contacting someone for research or copyright purposes, for instance, is probably going to be a bit more acceptable than contacting them to continue a dispute. Benjamin (talk) 01:27, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

No the purpose doens't matter. Contacting someone using a means they have not provided or linked on-wiki and/or have not explicitly invited is not acceptable, regardless of why you are doing it. If you want to contact someone, ask them first using a method they have made available on-wiki. The policy needs to be absolute because otherwise it relies on editors making their own subjective judgement about what is and is not acceptable, and recent history has shown that not everybody can be trusted to get that right. Thryduulf (talk) 10:06, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

That is not true. There most certainly are times where it's appropriate. For example, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request says: "Tips for finding a source yourself: Send a request to the author(s) of research papers for a copy of their paper by email". Benjamin (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

If you don't understand the difference between contacting a Misplaced Pages editor off-wiki using means they have not disclosed on wiki and contacting a research paper author who is not a Wikipedian using contact methods made public in that paper/by their institution then you are the exact reason why we need an absolute policy. Thryduulf (talk) 18:16, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

It could happen that someone contacts an author who is a Wikipedian using contact methods made public in a paper. Would you consider that inappropriate? Bear in mind that the names used are not necessarily the same, but might be. · · · Peter (Southwood) : 19:48, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: I'm a bit offended you think I'd know no better than to harass someone. But to the point, that's quite the opposite of what I said: there IS a difference between those two types of interaction, one is okay, and one is not, and policy should reflect that. Benjamin (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

I think this is an interesting issue, and I've been trying to work out how I would address it. I think it boils down to the fact that there should be, and is, nothing in Misplaced Pages policy that forbids editors from contacting people outside Misplaced Pages to get information about potential content. So if I'm working on a page about "X" and I contact someone who is an expert on "X", that has nothing to do with the harassment policy. For the interesting special case where that expert also happens to be a Misplaced Pages editor, it depends on whether or not the expert is being contacted simply like any other expert, or by way of their identity as an editor here. So if I have no idea that the expert on "X" is also an editor who does not indicate here that they are that person in real life, I'm not harassing anybody. Or, if the expert/editor provides their identity and contact information on-site, I'm free to contact them that way. But I should get their permission in advance if I want to use contact information that they did not provide here, once I know that they are an editor. It does not matter whether the information not provided here comes from the phone book or from their university website: if it is not provided on-wiki, I cannot use it without prior permission, even if their identity is provided here. (Note: this means that the expert I could contact about content without any issue of harassing them acquires the right not to be contacted that way when they become an editor.) But let's say that I have some reason to believe that the editor is also the expert, but they do not explicitly say so on-site. If I'm just inferring it, or if I figure it out by doing some research that reveals something, anything, not posted on-site, any private contact I make that involves or refers to their editing here is a violation, but that's because they are an editor who has chosen not to provide their personal information. What that boils down to is that editors who are also experts have the same privacy rights as every other editor, and so the policy is the same, regardless of whether the editor is or is not an expert. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:58, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Tryptofish. I think this can be summed up with a note saying that this part of the policy applies when you are contacting a person you know or reasonably suspect to be a Misplaced Pages editor. It does not apply if you don't know the person is a Misplaced Pages editor, and it doesn't apply if the contact is completely unrelated to Misplaced Pages. e.g. if I was employed by an organisation unrelated to Misplaced Pages in a role that required me to contact somebody I knew to be a Misplaced Pages editor about something unrelated to Misplaced Pages then this policy would not apply. Although I realise having read what I've just written that this is not perfectly worded as it could be seen as allowing editor A to seek out editor B's contact details that they haven't provided on-wiki to contact them about something unrelated to Misplaced Pages but which would still be perceived as harassing/stalking (in exactly the same way it would be if A learned of B's existence in a bar rather than on Misplaced Pages). It's also not a license to harass non-editors. Thryduulf (talk) 14:21, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I think it could be useful to add a note along those lines, and I'd like to examine how we might word it. My suggested revision at the top of this sub-section says: "Contacting a user through information not posted by them on-site, without first obtaining explicit permission, is likely to be unwelcome, and even to be perceived as threatening." We have a consensus to revise that to: "Contacting an editor using information not posted by them on-site, without first obtaining explicit permission, is likely to be unwelcome, and even to be perceived as threatening." I'm thinking that, first, we could revise that sentence further, to: "Contacting an editor using any information not posted by them on-site, without first obtaining explicit permission, is likely to be unwelcome, and even to be perceived as threatening." Then, second, add the following at the end of the first paragraph: This part of the policy applies to all editors and all contact with persons reasonably believed to be editors. I'm not sure if that covers enough, or covers too much. Thoughts? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

My fear is that will be interpreted as covering too much, per my comments about contacting people we know/believe to be editors when we are not acting as an editor. For example my userpage discloses my real name and the area of London where I live, but does not disclose my mobile phone number. Suppose I provide my real name, address and phone number to XYZ Ltd when making a complaint about their product. User:Example is a Misplaced Pages editor who works for XYZ Ltd and is the person whose job it is to contact me about my complaint. It would be perfectly reasonable for User:Example to suspect that the person they need to contact is also a Misplaced Pages editor, particularly if they are familiar with my writing style. It is not harassment for User:Example to contact me about my complaint using the information I provided to XYZ Ltd but not on-wiki nor to them personally, even if we are presently engaged in a heated on-wiki dispute. It would however be harassment under this policy (and hopefully also contrary to XYZ Ltd's policies) for them to use that information to contact me about my (or their) editing on Misplaced Pages, whether we are in a dispute or not, without my prior permission. I don't know how to make this anything close to succinct though. Thryduulf (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I do want to add the word "any" where I indicated, but I'm ambivalent about the rest. I'm starting to suspect that this may be a case of less is more, and we should consider it implicit that this policy, like all polices, applies to all editors and to no one outside of WP, and that it goes without saying. On the other hand, the discussion here does seem to suggest that something more needs to be clarified, but I don't know how. If anyone watching here can suggest something, that would be very helpful. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

OK, I thought of something. The first sentence of the proposed revision is from the sentence that Mkdw suggested, and currently says: Inappropriate or unwanted public or private communication, following, or any form of stalking, violates the harassment policy. Perhaps we could add: "Inappropriate or unwanted public or private communication, following, or any form of stalking, when directed at another editor, violates the harassment policy." It's pretty much a common sense addition that does not really change anything substantive, but it makes it clear that we are talking about harassment of editors as opposed to what WP:HNE says (and HNE is sufficient to deal with what applies to non-editors). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: @Thryduulf: @Bd2412: @Ryk72: @MrX: @EdChem: @Mkdw: I hope this doesn't seem spammy, and I also hope it doesn't come across as canvassing, but I'm pinging each of you because your comments above seem to me to indicate that, at the time of those comments, you were significantly interested in making some sort of revision here. I'm not sure where we now stand, in terms of the discussion having gone quiet. What do you think? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm in favour of the suggested revision above, although I'd tweak "Contacting a user through information not posted by them on-site," to "Contacting an editor using information..." this is just stylistic and shouldn't get in the way of making a change. Thryduulf (talk) 21:49, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping and all your work on this. I hadn't forgotten but was finding the discussion aggravating and so felt it best to leave it in capable hands. Yes, I support the suggested new wording with Thryduulf's stylistic change, and also for reasons of style I suggest changing Misplaced Pages:Emergency to "the emergency response team." (same link, but flows better with "the Arbitration Committee") Ivanvector (/_Edits) 14:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with that suggestion as well. Thryduulf (talk) 00:54, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry Tryptofish for the delay in responding. It has been a busy week! I have not been following the conversation closely, but has the community been opposed to prohibiting off-wiki contract when not consented to by the individual outside of Misplaced Pages-related events and programs? If not, I would suggest the following (or some variant) for the second paragraph:

Appropriate forms of private communication include: Misplaced Pages's email interface when enabled; any method of communication an individual has publicly posted on Misplaced Pages for the express purpose of private communication; or when an individual has received express permission and contact information from the other person. Contacting another editor through off-wiki means without their express permission may constitute as harassment and even be perceived as a threat to their safety and well-being. Participants during Misplaced Pages-related events and programs may be subject to other prevailing guidelines and policies regarding consent, such as the Wikimedia Foundation friendly space policy. Users who are contacted through inappropriate means should report occurrences privately to the Arbitration Committee or emergency response team.

Mkdw 05:53, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

"may constitute as harassment" Or might be completely fine, depending on the situation. It should be clarified. Benjamin (talk) 07:56, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I think this would be really good with a few changes to clarify thing:

Appropriate forms of private communication include: Misplaced Pages's email interface when enabled; any method of communication an individual has publicly posted on Misplaced Pages for the express purpose of private communication; or when an individual has received express permission and contact information from the other person. Contacting another editor through off-wiki means without their express permission is prohibited as it may constitute as harassment and even be perceived as a threat to their the safety and well-being of the person being contacted. Participants during Misplaced Pages-related events and programs may be subject to other prevailing guidelines and policies regarding consent, such as the Wikimedia Foundation friendly space policy. Users who are contacted through inappropriate means should report occurrences privately to the Arbitration Committee or emergency response team.

Tornado chaser (talk) 15:10, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks everyone who has been responding. I agree with what Thryduulf and Ivanvector have suggested. But I'm somewhere between ambivalent and uncomfortable with what Mkdw has proposed. The most substantive change that it involves is the way that it addresses things like educational, outreach, or meet-up projects, and it seems to me to go in the wrong direction there, per earlier discussion about outreach, above. It seems to add additional restrictions on top of the policy here. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: I am unclear about what additional restrictions you are concerned about. If you are attending an event that has its own code of conduct, terms of use, or friendly space policy, you are already subject to those policies. If an outreach program has its own policy that prohibits any private unauthorized communication then that policy prevails over Misplaced Pages policy. We do have the authority to say private contact is acceptable in that situation. That is up to the organizers and stating so here may directly contradict a local event policy. I specifically omitted wording that definitively prohibits private contact because we cannot account for every situation in the real-world. Mkdw 19:56, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I suspect that we are each misunderstanding the other. Where you refer to the WMF Friendly Space policy, it sounds like you are saying that it applies in addition to the en-wiki harassment policy. So it would be like editors here are always subject to the harassment policy, and additionally become subject to the friendly space policy when they get involved with certain organized activities. I'm not seeing what that would accomplish, since WMF terms of use always apply here (but I would not mind having a see also going to the friendly space page). If you scroll up a bit above the section break, to where it says "Outreach observations", there is discussion about how there are certain programs in which some types of off-wiki communication within an organized structure is acceptable, that would not be acceptable if an individual editor seeks out another editor's private information. And, more broadly, I'm just not seeing what it is about the second paragraph that you are trying to correct. Is that clearer? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:16, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, we're not understanding each other. Plainly, the sentence, "or as part of organized projects such as educational, outreach, or meet-up projects" should be removed. The other changes were for clarity, grammar, and putting it in a more formal language setting. Mkdw 00:22, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't in fact understand. Why should that sentence be removed? (Again, please take a look at the comments above, starting at "Outreach observations", before replying.) Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

(PS. To other editors: the very fact of the two of us not understanding things the same way should serve as another demonstration of why a revision is needed, and why the existing language is insufficient. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 29 December 2018 (UTC))

I read the concerns about outreach when I first wrote my proposal and I already explained above the issue with this wording. I have provided a more detailed explained at User talk:Tryptofish#Harassment amendment. Mkdw 01:20, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

My apologies for coming very late to this discussion. I want to add my voice to those above saying that off-wiki contact, using details not posted on-wiki, is not necessarily harassment and insisting that it is cheapens harassment and plays down some terrible experiences.
I have very occasionally (twice, perhaps?) contacted other editors by phone. This has happened in the course of patrolling UAA where a new editor claims to represent a public institution (museum or library). I've blocked the account for violating the policy on usernames that imply shared use, dropped the appropriate template on their TP but also made what I consider a courtesy a phone call to the reception desk of the institution, asking to speak to whoever handles their Misplaced Pages presence to explain the problem and what they need to do to fix it. In every case, the call has been welcome and appreciated. Is this harassment? I certainly don't think so, but by some definitions floating around here it would be.
I think some of the disagreements are helpfully clarified by Tornado Chaser's proposed edit above; some proposals here seek to ban all off-wiki contact without prior affirmative consent, not because that is always harassment but because it may constitute harassment or may be perceived as harassment. Imposing a blanket ban, and so losing the benefit of examples above of helpful and welcome off-site contact in order to prevent other inappropriate cases, may be a reasonable thing to do (I'm in two minds) especially given the difficulty we have articulating when such contact is and isn't harassing. But we should be explicit that we are casting the net wide, and prohibiting some unproblematic situations in order to protect people from harassment, rather than simply broadening our definition of harassment to the point where it is nearly meaningless. GoldenRing (talk) 03:17, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

The key thing about those examples, as I see it, is that if someone claims, on-wiki, to be representing an organisation then they are effectively disclosing that they can be contacted through that organisation. Stopping that contact is not the aim of this change nor do I see it being affected by the recently proposed versions either. Thryduulf (talk) 21:31, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

(EC) I appreciate that that is how you see it, but I'm seeing a number of others here who don't see it that way. Eg. Tryptofish above, "tracking down their contact information that they did not post here should be against policy." My example above would breach such a policy, because I googled the organisation to find a phone number for them. Ryk72 takes this even further with "if a Misplaced Pages editor makes unsolicited phone calls to another editor on a phone number that they have not explicitly provided on Wiki, it is an act of harassment - intent is immaterial; how the call is received is immaterial - it is an act of harassment."
Mkdw's proposed text above is problematic for me because it defines harassment in part as "unwanted contact." How is an editor to know whether contact is welcome until it has been attempted? There seems to be general agreement that finding an editor's personal phone number and using it is unacceptable, but it isn't obvious to me that such cases would always fall under "inappropriate" or "unwanted"; this seems to me to be a case of banning a wide range of contact in order to prevent the fraction that is actually a problem. As I said above, this may well be a reasonable trade-off, but we should not seek to justify it by pretending that every such case is harassment. GoldenRing (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

You make a good point about what you quoted me as saying. And I actually did not intend it to apply to what you described. I would very much welcome ideas about how to put this into policy language, since we certainly have a lot of illustrations of how not to say it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

That distinction, between "is always" and really-is-not-always, is on my mind too. And it's difficult to put it into precise language. I'll repeat what Mkdw pointed out above, that there is a parallel discussion going on at User talk:Tryptofish#Harassment amendment. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:14, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Things that are (not) always unacceptable

Following on from comments by Tryptofish, Mkdw and GoldenRing (among others) above it may help if we work out some examples of what we see as always unacceptable, and some examples of what is (sometimes) acceptable and work out if there is an easily expressed way of determining what puts something in one category or another:
Things that are always unacceptable without explicit advance permission:

• Contacting an editor off-wiki regarding an on-wiki dispute you and they are both involved in - doubly so if contact is by phone - an order of magnitude more so if contact is in person. If unsolicited contact with an editor is necessary it is almost always going to be better if this is initiated by an editor who is not, and has not recently been, involved in any dispute with the editor being contacted.
• Intentionally contacting an editor in person, other than at an event you and they are both attending.
• Contacting an editor at an event in any way that breaches the policies of that event.
• Contacting an editor via their personal phone/email/etc when these have not been made available publicly.
• Contacting an editor via their place of work when their edits to Misplaced Pages do not clearly form part of their duties.
• Contacting an editor using any method they have explicitly asked you not to use (excluding vague or overbroad requests not to post on the editor's talk page)
• Sleuthing alternative contact details for an editor when working details have been posted/linked to on-wiki.
• Sharing contact details with third parties (other than exceptions below)
• Using contact details provided for Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia matters

Things that are (sometimes) acceptable:

• Contacting an editor at an organisation they explicitly or otherwise very clearly (claim to) represent, using publicly available contact details for that organisation.
• Contacting an editor using contact details posted or linked to on-wiki (only regarding Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia matters unless
• Contacting a teacher/tutor/professor/etc regarding an on-wiki activity they are (apparently) running/organising/instigated for their pupils/students/etc. Where possible, contact should normally be made through/via their educational institution.
• Sharing contact details with the emergency response team or other emergency responders.
• Sharing contact details when required to do so by law enforcement or similar bodies (but inform m:Legal as soon as possible)

These are my initial opinions only (it does not necessarily reflect consensus), not all of them have been thoroughly thought through, wording above is explicitly not intended as policy wording, and I am explicitly not proposing this as a list of examples to be included in any policy and it is definitely not a complete list. Thryduulf (talk) 23:44, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I think that this is a very helpful exercise. To take a pair of examples where I'm having a hard time putting it into policy-style language:

1. Contacting an editor via their personal phone/email/etc when these have not been made available publicly.
2. Contacting a teacher/tutor/professor/etc regarding an on-wiki activity they are (apparently) running/organising/instigated for their pupils/students/etc. Where possible, contact should normally be made through/via their educational institution.

I think we all agree that there are situations in which the first example is something we want to prohibit, and I think (hope!) that the second example is something we want to permit. But doing the second example pretty much requires violating the first. I'm coming up blank on how to explain that in a policy. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:54, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

I would say, there is no instance unless for some emergency situation which I am having a hard time imagining, where we contact a teacher personally when the editing work is in the name of students. Working with students is a professional endeavour and we don't have the right unless given permission, in my opinion anyway, to contact a teacher of any kind through personal means.Littleolive oil (talk) 00:42, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

If the teacher is working for/with an educational institution then we should be making contact with them through that institution if we can - no question. If however we can find only personal contact details (which would I suspect be most likely if it was a private tutor or someone not working through an official institution) then the answer is not so clear-cut. Thryduulf (talk) 01:03, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

The more I see of the discussions here, the more I am convinced that we need to clarify the policy about this, and the more I am convinced that it is depressingly difficult to do so. About class projects, I urge interested editors to look over the recent history of WP:Education noticeboard. It is not at all unusual to have class projects that show up at en-Wiki without going through the processes set up by WMF/WikiEd, create significant disruption, and subsequently result in some editors who are also highly trustworthy staff of WikiEd getting in touch privately with the instructor and working helpfully to fix the situation. If that's harassment of the instructor, well, to call it that would be ludicrous.

More broadly, I want to thank Thryduulf for setting up this part of the discussion, and GoldenRing for articulating particularly well why we should not classify a lot of off-wiki contact as harassment. I've slept on it, and I'm somewhat changing my previous opinion, to believe now that we need to define harassment here somewhat narrowly. In considering the lists above, I'm starting to think that the distinguishing factors (thinking out loud here, far from a final determination) between what is and what isn't acceptable come down to (or at least include) two specifics. (1) It's harassment when the communication comes as part of any sort of dispute – because that greatly exacerbates the dispute by adding a menacing aspect to it. (2) It's harassment when the editor contacted has a reasonable expectation that the contact information would not have been used because they had not provided it on-wiki – because that kind of contact is creepy and potentially menacing. But when neither of those two criteria apply, I'm not sure that it is harassment. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

It occurs to me to add: (3) It's harassment when the editor contacted has asked not to be contacted that way. It might be possible to combine (2) and (3). --Tryptofish (talk) 00:12, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: A few times you have mentioned the case of educators organising projects for students outside of an organisational setting (private tutors etc). Is this a case that has ever come up? Or is it more a hypothetical? GoldenRing (talk) 22:29, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I've never been involved with WikiEd so I can't say whether it has ever happened or not - my whole knowledge about this subject comes from this discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 22:59, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

I've followed the issues surrounding class projects for a long time, and I do not recollect any problems related to that. If it is just one or two students editing, I doubt that other editors would even realize that they were doing it as part of a tutorial, unless two students were editing closely-related pages. If it were something with multiple students editing as part of such a tutorial, it would be regarded at WikiEd as still being a "class assignment", whether or not the "class" was conducted within an educational institution or as part of a private teaching exercise. What I think that means for the discussion here is that we can get only so far by basing this policy on a distinction between contacting someone through their institution or contacting them individually. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:09, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

What about something on these lines:

• The editor has explicitly consented to the contact by:
  • Publicly inviting contact on-wiki,
  • Participating in a Misplaced Pages-related event, the rules of which allow such contact, or
  • Specifically consenting to contact from you in private communication;
• You reasonably believe that an editor edits (wholly or partly) in a professional capacity or on behalf of an organisation and you make contact through that organisation or using their published professional contact details; or
• The contract is required by policy or law.

Although in these cases off-wiki contact is generally permitted, unless required by law you must not make contact off-wiki:

• In relation to an on-wiki dispute, or
• Where the editor has asked you not to.

The wording is rather clumsy in places, in particular the bit about professional capacity; this is an attempt to capture the private tutor situation. Also the "in Ralston to an on-wiki dispute"is perhaps unclear; where an admin blocks an org account and makes a courtesy phone call, that's intended to be permitted, but where they block an org account and the user kicks up a big fuss on-wiki about admin abuse and so on, then a phone call should not be permitted. The "required by law" language is intended where eg one editor sues another; we can block the plaintiff under NLT, but want to avoid blocking the defendant for responding to the suit. I'm still just thinking out loud. GoldenRing (talk) 23:40, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

My initial thoughts: I see the following as issues, in no particular order. I'd rather omit the legal parts, because the example you give is the only one I can think of where that applies, and both parties would be kept off-wiki until the legal dispute is resolved. We need to add something about it being fine to use email when the email function is enabled. I don't like saying in a policy that the policy bans some things that are actually OK, the way that last sentence does. I'm not sure that "on behalf of an organization" adequately reflects class projects: the students edit on their own behalves in order to get course credit, and the instructor might not be editing at all. Also, I can see an ugly opportunity for gaming if someone says that they contacted someone at their workplace because of a flimsy association between the editing and the workplace. Even if it's not gaming, there can be a lot of confusion over what constitutes "reasonable belief" – after all, the drama over the now-blocked editor that set off this entire discussion arose over contacting someone over their possible COI by using their organizational contact information. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. Having re-read this discussion this morning, I am starting to think maybe "no unsolicited phone calls ever" is the right approach, but I'm trying to see if we can frame a policy that avoids that. To respond to your points:

1. Would we block an editor for responding to an off-wiki suit? The actual text of WP:NLT says we wouldn't even block the plaintiff, so long as it isn't mentioned on-wiki. I can think of various other hypothetical situations, but admittedly they are mostly real-world-situation-plus-both-happen-to-be-wikipedians.
2. "publicly inviting contact on-wiki" is meant to capture the email function, but it could be explicitly added.
3. IMO off-site contact with students in this situation should be off-limits; I can't see a situation where we should be looking up a student's contact details. And if the instructor is not editing, the contact is outside the scope of the policy.
4. probably the most important part of the text is that it is never okay to make off-wiki contact where there is an on-wiki dispute. In these situations, even if the intent is good and the call would have actually helped, the potential for it to go wrong is enormous. Perhaps there are still opportunities for gaming here, with tag-teaming and such.
5. I think it is important that the policy sets a clear expectation that off-wiki contact is normally not okay, even in situations where no harm is done. I don't want editors to be able to say, "but the policy is ridiculously over-broad and my particular case didn't do any harm." Even if their particular case of off-wiki contact didn't do any specific harm, it still did a general harm of normalising a sort of contact that some editors are known to find particularly distressing.

Another aspect that I don't think has been discussed is that we encourage editors to contact image owners to ask if they will release content under a free license. In the general case this won't be in the scope of this policy but the owner may happen to be a Wikipedian (and the connection may not be public). I'm generally worried about situations that amount to a real world situation that would normally be fine except both parties happen to be Wikipedians and the potential for the harassment policy to be weaponised in these situations. GoldenRing (talk) 10:46, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

The point about file license permissions is a very good one, that I don't think anyone thought of before. Given that we have three versions being discussed here, the one that I suggested, the one that Mkdw suggested, and yours, I feel like we should be trying to get them into a single version. You've explained a lot of the points I raised, but we will need language that stands on its own, without a separate explanation. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Second section break

Given that most of the editors who have commented here are strongly in favor of a revision of some sort, it's been a surprisingly slow process to actually agree about what such a revision should be. I've been thinking hard about what other editors have been saying, and maybe I can reboot this discussion by suggesting this:

The mention of the outing section could be blue-linked. What I did was revise the second paragraph to use "depending on the context" as an alternative to trying list what is OK, and then to try to identify what editors seem to agree are the situations where it is never OK. I think it indicates what we consider to be harassment without making everything else harassment. I think that, ultimately, we have to rely on administrator judgment to distinguish between what is and isn't off-site harassment, just as we rely on it in the outing section to distinguish between outing and "unintentional and non-malicious" conduct, and we should not try to enumerate every possible situation. Does this move in the right direction? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

• @Tryptofish: I may be a bit behind, since there has been much discussion. If not already stricken, I would remove "Contacting a teacher/tutor/professor/etc regarding an on-wiki activity..." from the proposal. One can always contact the editor on their talk page; I do not see where off-wiki contact without permission would be appropriate. Same for editors claiming to represent a company or an organisation. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2019 (UTC)``
• Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I appreciate all the work you have done on this Tryptofish and I would support the immediate above proposed change. Mkdw 01:30, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks, both of you. K.e.coffman, this most recent version omits all mention of teachers, companies, etc. Mkdw, I'm very glad that I came up with something that works for you. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

• Earlier in these discussions, some editors expressed the view that no such revision is needed. I'd be interested in what editors believe, currently, about how we should determine whether or not there is sufficient consensus to implement the revision. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Are there any objections to implementing the version in this subsection of the talk page? If so, that's OK – I don't want to change anything if there are still objections. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:14, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm largely happy with the version in this subsection and my only issues are with phraseology rather than the intended meaning. I don't want to let perfect be the enemy of the good, so my comments here should not prevent a consensus to post, especially as I can't immediately suggest anything better in either case.

      My first comment is regarding the "when directed at another editor" clause - I clearly understand that it is intended to limit the applicability in response to the comments in preceding sections of this discussion, but for someone not familiar with that I wonder whether it would be misinterpreted to be endorsing harassment of non-editors? Rather than rewording it may just be better to have an explanatory footnote summarising why this clause exists?

      The other point is that in "Never contact another editor in this way as part of a dispute" it isn't necessarily immediately clear what "this way" refers to - I know what it means, but would someone not familiar with these discussions? Especially if they are wikilawyering, they may argue that it could mean either (or both) of the preceding two sentences. My only thoughts on alternative wordings for this are either very clumsy, repetitious or both and not necessarily without their own problems. Thryduulf (talk) 18:01, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the very thoughtful comments. About the first point, I'm not too worried, because it only says that it "violates the harassment policy", not that anything else is OK – and WP:HNE already has the issue covered.

The second point is actually something I had been thinking about, too. Like you, I've thought about alternative ways to say it, but have not come up with anything that isn't clumsy or repetitious. I do, however, think that the intended meaning is the obvious and common-sense one, and that it would be difficult for anyone to wikilawyer it convincingly. If anyone thinks of a better solution, I'd welcome it. I'm going to wait several more days before enacting anything, to allow for such feedback, as well as to give time for any editors to say that they oppose the change more broadly. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:05, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Actually, thinking about it a little more, I tend to believe that contacting someone through the contact information they provide or through Misplaced Pages email, when it's part of a dispute or after being asked not to do so, may, "depending on the context", potentially be harassment. For that reason, I think the proposed language may be OK as it is. Editors who earlier opposed any change have argued that there are times when if a user doesn't have the judgment to understand the difference between what is and what isn't harassment, then that user cannot be helped by a policy revision. I still obviously believe the proposed change fixes something that needed to be made explicit, but I also think that we do not need to explain the obvious for every conceivable circumstance. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

I remain of the view that prohibiting all off-wiki contact as harassment is both a misrepresentation of the nature of harassment and an unhelpful "bright line" response to a situation containing nuance and grey areas. Looking at the text proposed, I note:

Editors who welcome private communication typically post their preferred contact information on Misplaced Pages, sometimes enabling email through the Misplaced Pages interface. Contacting an editor using any other contact information, without first obtaining explicit permission, should be assumed to be uninvited and, depending on the context, may be harassment. Never contact another editor in this way as part of a dispute, or when the editor has asked not to be contacted that way. Unexpected contact using personal information as described above in "Posting of personal information" may be perceived as a threat to the safety and well-being of the person being contacted.

This is badly written. Of course using other contact information is uninvited if you have found the contact details independently and not sought permission, there is no need to "assume" that it is uninvited when it is self-evident that it must be. I find the second last sentence in this quote a little odd, too, as it says not to use such contact channels when in a dispute or when those have been explicitly ruled out, but leaves plenty of space for wikilawyering around those edges – especially as the sort of declarations envisaged here are rare. Perhaps something like:

Editors can choose to accept private communications by email through the Misplaced Pages interface. Some editors also invite off-wiki contact by providing contact information on their user page while others may post that they do not wish to be contacted in certain ways. Using any channel other than one plainly stated on-wiki to approach an editor off-wiki without first obtaining explicit permission is usually inappropriate and so is strongly discouraged. An editor may well perceive such unexpected contact as harassment or even as a threat to his or her safety and well-being, especially if you and the editor are involved in a dispute or if you have disregarding the editor's stated wishes regarding off-wiki communication.

The final sentence of the proposal has the wrong focus, in my opinion:

Users who are contacted through inappropriate means should report occurrences privately to the Arbitration Committee or to the emergency response team.

The issue, surely, is whether the contact was experienced as harassment rather than whether the means of communication was "inappropriate." I suggest:

Users who experience inappropriate off-wiki contact should report occurrences privately to the Arbitration Committee or to the emergency response team.

I would also like to point out a real-life example from recently. A new editor recently wrote a bio and started an article on an obscure area of chemistry. On being challenged, the editor revealed that s/he was the student of the academic that was the subject of the bio, that the new article was about this academic's research, and that the student had been told to create a bio for the Professor. For some students, on encountering problems (the Professor failed NPROF and the only material for the article was primary literature from that research group) and fearing the Professor's reaction, might well engage in problematic editing. Contacting the Professor directly to explain why their bio was not being kept was preferable to the student engaging in socking, etc, to try to save the pages. Now, under some of the above proposals, whether the Professor could be contacted (by email) would depend on whether the Professor also had an account. To me, this is a case where off-wiki contact was appropriate, so long as it was polite and informative and not aggressive or critical, etc. This is one reason why I think leaving some space (by saying discouraged but not prohibited, for example) is appropriate. Yes, some editors may do foolish things, but if so, judge them on how the recipient feels and / or what was said. After all, they can harass through the WP email option too, and we would sanction them for doing the wrong thing, not prohibit anyone else using the email feature. EdChem (talk) 13:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, and I'll largely defer to what other editors think. Starting with your last point, about changing "Users who are contacted through inappropriate means" to "Users who experience inappropriate off-wiki contact", that strikes me as an improvement, and I'll happily agree to it.

For the rest, I think that it is very important to recognize that the version proposed just before your revisions says "depending on the context". Consequently, it most definitely is not "prohibiting all off-wiki contact as harassment". And it would allow contact with the professor in your example; in fact, the language was crafted with such situations specifically in mind. Such contact is always uninvited, and saying so prevents wikilawyering over "I thought they wouldn't mind", but whether it is harassment depends upon the details. Conversely, where your revision says that it is "usually inappropriate and so is strongly discouraged", that seems to me to get it wrong. A policy that says that something is discouraged is going to be difficult to enforce. There are times when this kind of conduct is vastly worse than "discouraged", and there are other times, not necessarily "unusual", where off-wiki contact is entirely benign.

So that's what I think. I'd like to wrap this discussion up soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:46, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Tryptofish. Obviously consensus will determine what is changed so if my thoughts aren't supported then I'll accept that. I don't understand how stating that uninvited contact is, in fact, uninvited precludes or prevents an "I thought they wouldn't mind" response, but I do agree that details dictate whether the contact is harassment. As for enforcement, the only way to make it simple is a bright line "no contact" policy, which I think would be ridiculous. I think the recent fracas over off-wiki contact became far too focussed on the contact being off-wiki rather than on the nature of the contact / discussion... but mine may be a minority view. I'm glad you like the change at the end, which is meant to highlight the response to inappropriate conduct in off-wiki contact, rather than on simply the fact of off-wiki contact without considering its content. EdChem (talk) 11:02, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for following up on this. I agree that there needs to be a change, but I'm still at sea as to what the change should be. The difficulty with "depending on context" is that it leaves the door open to contact that is intended to be benign but is received badly by the other party; at that point, the damage has been done. The very situation that kicked off this whole process could easily be cast in this light; Jytdog's intentions in contacting another editor were all good but the conversation went badly, the recipient was upset by it and Jytdog has been indeffed as a result (or that is my reading of the situation; I was inactive for the majority of it and didn't follow it closely). I think even the language about disputes may not have stopped this from happening; the line being between being in a dispute and trying to help a new user understand how their editing doesn't line up with the community's expectations is a pretty grey one.
Leaving what is an isn't okay up to administrators means dealing with many of these situations after the fact by (essentially) punishing the wrong-doers, rather than having a very clear expectation about what is and isn't acceptable and preventing the harm from being done.
The simple fact of the matter is that some editors find being contacted off-wiki about things on-wiki perfectly normal and unremarkable and other editors find it very creepy and threatening. There is, in general, no way to predict which reaction you're going to get.This is why I prefer a blanket ban with specific, narrow exceptions. GoldenRing (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you, for the gracious and thoughtful replies. I notice how EdChem refers to "a bright line 'no contact' policy, which I think would be ridiculous" and GoldenRing says "I prefer a blanket ban with specific, narrow exceptions". To some degree, we all agree about that, and to some degree there are differences of opinion about how extensive the exceptions have to be in order not to be ridiculous, and we are never going to achieve perfection on how to delineate that. (Maybe a future dispute over administrative judgment about context will illuminate the next round of revisions – nothing we do now needs to be permanent, of course.) I'll give this another day or so, mainly to preclude any complaints that we didn't listen to editors who oppose making any change. But then, I think it's going to be time to make the revision and move on. Thanks everyone. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:06, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I also think the important thing here is that what we currently have is not sufficient and it needs to be replaced. I suggest we implement the latest proposal and we can always revisit it should a situation arise that we never considered, or editing activities become disrupted. I expect this policy will continue to evolve, especially since harassment law is undergoing massive Common law reform. Mkdw 23:40, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

 Done. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

request for funding - machine learning research on wiki-misconduct

Hello, I edit Misplaced Pages professionally for a university and do Misplaced Pages research. I am writing to seek wiki community endorsement to receive US$5000 Wikimedia Foundation funds to better wikify some automated research on Misplaced Pages misconduct. If you can support this research then please sign off at the bottom of the research description.

• meta:Grants:Project/University of Virginia/Machine learning to predict Wikimedia user blocks

I recognize that I am not posting on a board which is a perfect fit for seeking support and comments about an "Artificial intelligence in Wikimedia projects" approach to wiki community management, but as I have looked around in other places I think this board might be the most popular place for discussing responses to user misconduct.

The research is a data science examination of variables which have correlated with a user account getting a block in the past. The research output will be a list of accounts which closely match those blocked accounts, but which do not have blocks themselves. There will be no quick solution here, but I am looking to advance the conversation on this topic in both technical and non-technical directions. If anyone has questions I could talk here, but I appreciate any response - including criticism and challenges - on the talk page at the grant request. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:33, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's identity verification process

English Misplaced Pages and elsewhere in Wikimedia projects there are various processes by means of which the wiki attempts to match a Wikimedia user account with some other off-wiki identity.

I am collecting whatever practices, guidelines, or essays exist on wiki processes for examining off-wiki identity. If anyone has something then please share at

• Misplaced Pages:Identity verification

I am posting here because I have observed that when subjects of articles write to WP:OTRS to complain of harassment, defamation, or libel (these things in the colloquial sense and perhaps not in the sense of legal terms), then the following conversation includes requests for identity verification. OTRS agents may do this, or the client may request this, or there can be requests in other directions.

Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:13, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Does OUTING apply to deceased editors?

The recent death of User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris caused me to wonder: If a Misplaced Pages editor has died, and that person's real-world identity is not publicly known (not really an issue for Boris as he previously edited under his real name, although the Misplaced Pages article on his real-life identity still does not mention this), does it violate OUTING for someone who knows the connection between their Misplaced Pages identity and their real-world identity to make it public? Or does OUTING only apply to still-living Wikipedians? —David Eppstein (talk) 00:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I would say yes - treat it like BLP, in that there are certain things we shouldn't do in the 6 -24 months after the death of a person. --Masem (t) 00:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm hard pressed to say it's outing. It's normal to link to a real-world obituary (which will invariably include the person's real name), and many deaths are reported by family members, who will usually include the editor's real name. Let's just say I wouldn't normally consider it a blocking offense except in rather extreme circumstances. Risker (talk) 18:04, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I think its best to use common sense. If a family member or someone else close to the deceased editor links to an obituary then that's going to be fine in most circumstances. However just because they are deceased doesn't give you permission to make the connection public without a reason. It will also depend how private they were about their real life identity - if it was an open secret (for want of a better term) then making the connection public isn't going to harm, but if they are very careful about keeping the two parts of their life separate then I'd be very wary of saying their death changes that without knowledge of any explicit wishes or knowledge of why they kept their real name very private. Thryduulf (talk) 20:33, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course it applies, let's say per WP:BDP. If the deceased editor's family posts an obituary or otherwise intentionally reveals their identity, well then fine, WP:OUTING already really covers why that's not forbidden by the policy. But discovering and revealing a deceased editor's identity when they had not disclosed it themselves is indeed outing, and there could very well still be BLP-level implications for the editor's family. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 20:38, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes. For those of us who live, work or travel outside the relative safety of the West, editing according to our policies & guidelines is not necessarily an apolitical act, and can create a degree of risk. In particular locations, such risk does not expire with the death of the individual editor, but extends to friends, family & associates. - Ryk72 01:29, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

No, if the purpose of the identification is to let wiki-friends and colleagues know that a beloved wiki-colleague will no longer be editing. This has happened numerous times, with the details of the wiki-colleague's identity and real-world accomplishments in the area of their wiki-expertise also being denoted. See for instance User talk:Viva-Verdi#Rest in peace, Viva-Verdi, a tireless long-term contributor to opera articles all across Misplaced Pages. Harassment is harassment; caring memorialization and community notification is not harassment. Softlavender (talk) 03:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Comment I am concerned that wikipedia editors may mention a real-world relationship with another editor, without either one disclosing anything else personal like location, but if one of them dies and is posthumously "outed" this could risk outing of the still living editor. Tornado chaser (talk) 23:58, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Misconduct - word for blockable behavior?

Sometimes user accounts do inappropriate things which are not harassment. What is the word for things like blockable 3RR, COI without disclosure, spam, use of proxy, or test edits?

• Abuse
• Misconduct
• Error
• Transgression
• Misuse
• Offenses
• Misbehavior

When we talk about the wiki justice system, what is the general term for what we try to prevent? If anyone can point me to policy pages for the umbrella concept then thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

• "Abuse" includes a clear assumption of bad faith; "error" includes the opposite assumption. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:27, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Clarification of OUTING

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Current wording of WP:OUTING:

• Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information, on Misplaced Pages.

Should this be revised to instead say one of the following:

1. unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information, on the English Misplaced Pages or another public Wikimedia project.
2. unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information, on the English Misplaced Pages.

(See also previous discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Question about outing) GMG 19:04, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Survey

• #1 (as proposer) - The current language is ambiguous and seems to imply that posting information on the German Misplaced Pages is fine, since it's "a Misplaced Pages", but posting on Commons or Wikidata would not be, which is absurd on its face. Having a local only policy is not technically feasible, since a number of pages, such as file descriptions from Commons and user pages from Meta are already automatically transcluded here locally, meaning that this would still be "outing", even though the information is here locally, because it was transcluded rather than posted here directly.Cross-wiki self identification is already used regularly in a number of ways. Maybe most prominently is the use of OTRS verified accounts and "own work" files for means of validating licenses, in addition to using cross-wiki activity to identify and dispose of cross-wiki spammers, who are want to post G11 autobiographical type pages here on the English Misplaced Pages and elsewhere, as well as spamming out-of-scope files on Commons, and pages on Wikidata, etc.At the end of the day, these are all interconnected sister projects, none of which truly operate as an island unto themselves, and posting personal identifiable information anywhere is fundamentally identifying your SUL, which is inherently cross-wiki in nature, and where everything you do under your SUL is decidedly "on wiki" in nature. GMG 19:04, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 - There is precedent for this interpretation and so we could have perhaps made this change without an RfC but I think it's clearly the correct meaning of the idea. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:57, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 – this seems fairly straightforward, and reflects the current practice. The main reason we can't consider off-wiki information is that we have no means of confirming that our user X is the same as X on another website, but we can for Wikimedia projects. – bradv🍁 20:12, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
• #2 The above is a different answer than I seemed to get at the discussion at WP:AN - that GMG links to above. My question there was whether it is OK for someone to publicly identify another editor who has never given out personal information on the English Misplaced Pages, but did so on another language Misplaced Pages. That discussion was non-committal but it seemed to be leaning toward, no, it isn't OK to do that. Now you just changed the wording to say if a person gives out their identity or personal information on any wiki, it is fair game to repeat that on any other wiki. Is that really consensus? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:25, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  That's generally the way we do business in my experience, yes. If someone for example, has an OTRS verified account on Commons for uploading corporate photos, there's nothing stopping someone from combing through potential COI contributions here or on other projects based on the verification. That doesn't just verify the account on Commons; it verified the SUL. GMG 20:30, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  @MelanieN: this request for arbitration was declined based on evidence of off-wiki information posted on Meta. I would suggest that this supports the view that #1 is already the position held by the community, even if the policy doesn't state this explicitly. – bradv🍁 20:35, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  There's also this ongoing discussion on Meta which in part involved the identity of an az.wiki admin because they were OUT on their home project. That's not to say that we shouldn't conduct ourselves in good taste. There are a handful of people who have met me personally, and could find images of me on Commons without too much trouble. But that doesn't mean they have leave to start posting them on random talk pages, because that would be disruptive without serving any legitimate purpose. GMG 20:59, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

• Caution: Misplaced Pages is referenced twelve times in the paragraph and over seventy times in the whole policy. In looking at the context of how "Misplaced Pages" is being colloquially used throughout the whole policy, I would argue it is being used consistently to refer to the English Misplaced Pages. If we're going to introduce a distinction by adding "English", then you are potentially also introducing a new aspect where "Misplaced Pages" refers to all Misplaced Pages projects and not just the English Misplaced Pages. The policy can only apply to the English Misplaced Pages and its editors. I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other, but as with any document or policy, you have to ensure usage is consistent throughout. In fact, if you read most of our policies, "Misplaced Pages" is frequently and fairly consistently to refer to this Misplaced Pages and not generally about all Wikipedias. Mkdw 20:38, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  Mkdw, part of the confusion here and at AN stems from exactly that - what does "Misplaced Pages" refer to? Does it include other languages? What about Commons? For most policies the answer is fairly self-evident, but this one requires reviewing how this has been interpreted in the past, as in my comment above. – bradv🍁 20:51, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

@Bradv: I understand the original issue and why a clarification was sought; the AN link is included as part of the proposal. The question you ask, "what does "Misplaced Pages" refer to?", raises my point. The question is general and not specific to one sentence in one policy. I do not think it is entirely clear if you read other policies if you automatically interpret "Misplaced Pages" to mean all Misplaced Pages projects. There are other implications and changes might very well be worth considering. This RFC is not just a clarification request. That could easily be accomplished by a proper policy RFC to obtain a consensus. The proposal to amend the policy does not list a no change option. Both options include "English Misplaced Pages", which I believe is not necessarily the convention used in most other policies. The fact that it is being introduced by RFC with this larger question above it may prove to be a cited precedent for interpreting other uses of Misplaced Pages as well.

The policy amendment proposal, whether it intends to or not, introduces a convention where "English Misplaced Pages" refers to the local project and "Misplaced Pages" refers to all Misplaced Pages projects. The most common practice in determining the exact meaning of wording is to look at other examples of how it is used. For example, if you change the definition of a word used in many places for one specific issue, the change must be considered with respect to how it is used in all places.

Again, all I am cautioning is that changing this proposal may have greater consequences than just one sentence. Mkdw 23:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

• I've always perceived this "Misplaced Pages" to mean all public Wikimedia projects, which as you can see, is conflicting with your viewpoint. --qedk (t 桜 c) 22:09, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

• #2 or no change. First, I'm happy to see a proposal for a change, that didn't come from me. I think there can be unintended consequences of opening this up to information posted at other projects. Under the proposed #1, Phabricator (or whatever they call the place where software bugs are addressed) would be included as a "public" project. But they have much less stringent safeguards for user identity than what we have here. (I once considered registering there, but then decided that it wasn't secure enough for me to be comfortable with.) And I think we should err on the side of respecting any editor's right to open an account here at en-wiki, without worrying about anything anywhere else. An editor might register here without revealing personal information here, and we have no way to know a priori whether they intended to keep their identity private here or assumed that anyone could find it at another wiki. What if someone who has long been active at another project, with their identity made public there, decides to delete it there (but not have it oversighted) and then shortly after starts editing here? Should the presumption be "tough luck, you once posted it there and it's in the edit history", or "maybe they deleted it there because they no longer want it to be public"? And why should anyone be "researching" another editor at another WMF project, anyway? Now that said, I read the AN discussion and I think that MelanieN's decision was a good one. Posting information found at another WMF project is clearly less malicious than posting information found somewhere else. Editors often assume wrongly that the Outing policy must be written so that any infraction must result in harsh repercussions. I think it's quite reasonable to take the position that personal information can only be posted here if it was made public here, but that if it was public at another wiki, its posting probably wasn't intended as maliciously as it would be if it was found elsewhere. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  Phabricator is not a Wikimedia project. And I regularly research users across projects for a variety of reasons. GMG 21:15, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  I'm surprised that it isn't. But right there is an opening for all manner of confusion about how to enforce the policy with the proposed change. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:17, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  Uh, I think Tryptofish is referring to https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/ . It is hard to say that is not at least a Wikimedia space if not an outright Wikimedia project... --Izno (talk) 21:20, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  Yes, that's it, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:21, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  As I was. Apparently there is a listing at m:Complete list of Wikimedia projects. GMG 21:22, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

• #1 seems to be the common sense application that any reasonable person would currently implement. Due to SUL, what's posted on enwiki and what's posted on, say, meta is essentially the same in terms of visibility and intentionally releasing some bit of information about oneself. If something were to come to my attention as an Oversighter that had been publicly stated on meta but not enwiki, I would not suppress that information on enwiki. ~ Rob₁₃ 23:23, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

• BU Rob13, quick query: so you would need them to go to meta and get it suppressed first. And what if meta oversighters were to say that as the mention is already there on enwiki, they would not suppress it either? Lourdes 03:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
  • @Lourdes: Nothing an editor posts themselves is covered by the outing/suppression projects on either project. If it qualified for suppression on meta (e.g. it was outing by another editor there), I would obviously also suppress here, whether or not it was still public on meta at the time. If it were still public on meta, I'd also try to find a meta oversighter to handle that bit if possible. But if the editor posted their full name on meta themselves, for instance, and then years later asked for it to be suppressed here, I would decline as not covered by our suppression criteria. ~ Rob₁₃ 03:22, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

If a minor posts their personal identifying information on meta, I would suppress it on the English Misplaced Pages. There are a few other areas of discretion as well such as individuals with varying intellectual abilities and individuals with mental health considerations. It is probably not worth discussing further per WP:BEANS. I will admit I have reservations about making a change to solve a problem that seems to have occurred once, recently, and could have been resolved quickly by simply seeking consent from the individual. The OUTING policy has been around for a considerable amount of time so I wonder whether this change is even required. Mkdw 04:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

• #2 An editor's contributions on one project should not count towards their assessment on other projects. One may have common sense presumptions, but there is much a slip between the cup and the lip, especially when it is about one's identity. Keep it clear and simple as this is policy – if it has not been disclosed on the English Misplaced Pages, then that's about it, you should not refer to it. Lourdes 03:17, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
• Option #2 at a bare minimum, but no change should have been offered as one of the options in the 'survey'. We have no idea the consequences of introducing this change retroactively with respect to people's desired privacy, nor would have many people who value their privacy necessarily considered being forthcoming on one project could be construed as consent on another years later. Editors have different relationships with each project. There are very few occasions when consent could not be verified with the individual before publicly posting their private information. Mkdw 04:29, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
• Either. #2 is simpler to understand and administrate (per Lourdes). The change is needed as the original is open to argument, as can be seen here. However I would quite happily accept #1 · · · Peter Southwood : 07:29, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 I support either but I prefer to keep the definition of public to public Wikimedia projects, restricting it seems unnecessary since you place information on a public wiki knowing it is public. --qedk (t 桜 c) 17:53, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
• #2. WMF-hosted projects are all independent of each other, with widely variant rules. One's roles, reasons for participating, usernames, and revealed details may vary widely from site to site. People seeking version #1 are mistaking WP:MULTIACCOUNT and related policies and guidelines for global cross-WMF rules; they are not, but are particular to en.WP only.

  I was recently a target of hounding across multiple WMF sites by someone for pointed political reasons, using my full name at one project (where I had not disclosed it – I'm simply SMcCandlish on almost every site of any kind; my full name is only used at Misplaced Pages, Wiktionary, and some social networking and blogging and other content sites; for sites at which I'm performing some kind of function other than primarily a writer of content, I don't use my full name). The intent of this harassment was to get me "fired" from a specific volunteer role and to ensure that employers, etc., Googling for my full name would pull up this person's nasty and demonstrably false accusations there. Different WMF projects have different civility/attacks/aspersions rules; going with option #1 would make it trivially easy to WP:GAME the entire WMF system, by seeking out the most lax venue in which to attack people, using all their information you can dox from all WMF sites combined. Nothing like that should ever happen again. If you are going around trying to tie en.WP user IDs to real-world identities or to userIDs at another website (even one hosted on the same server farm as en.WP), you are engaged in WP:OUTING, period.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:03, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

• #2 per SMcCandlish and Lourdes, or no change per Mkdw. For a long while my name was fully public at Commons for attribution of my photos, but it wasn't here as I wanted to keep my text contributions distinct from any real-world associations. That desire faded and now I don't distinguish, but we should not presume that a user wants to apply the same standards to all wikis. As one example an editor may be much more comfortable sharing information among the community of speakers of a small language than they are about making the same information clearly accessible to English speakers. Thryduulf (talk) 13:42, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 If someones post the handle of his twitter account on Commons or the German Misplaced Pages it should be fair game to discuss, say, their canvassing on twitter. The moment one identifies on one Wikimedia project, it makes no sense maintain separate compartments for each sub-project they may be active in. In terms of wording - it may make sense to define "Misplaced Pages" throughout Misplaced Pages policy in a more precise manner - but that's a wider scope than the question here. Icewhiz (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
• #2 As raised above, not all projects have the same rules and/or technical protections. Also, people may wish to be more open on one project than another about their identity. I think it would be reasonable to say "on English Misplaced Pages or Meta". StudiesWorld (talk) 10:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
• #2 Each wiki is a separate wiki entity and should be treated as such. Sir Joseph 14:56, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 A Wikimedia account is a unified identity, by nature, and policy should recognize this. Benjamin (talk) 23:35, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
  • If that were the case, then I should get admin rights on all projects; and a person blocked on one project should be blocked across projects... and so on so forth. Lourdes 02:38, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
    • The username is the same, and publicly linked. That's the significant part. Benjamin (talk) 05:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• #2 Seems the spirit of the original. Plus I also worry that the "on other public wikimedia projects" is a case of WP:BEANS where we'll be giving bad actors the green light to go snooping on other wikis or game policies per SMcCandlish. In cases where #2 may cause weird stuff like someone potentially getting sanctioned for posting on enwiki info from an editor's global user page, see WP:COMMONSENSE. Wugapodes 03:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 But change "his or her" to "their". Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:50, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 seems pretty obvious. SUL exists if I reveal my identity on my meta global user page it is absurd to think that I have some right to have no one mention it on en.wiki. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:17, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
  • #1 does not distinguish between something posted on a global user page (where your argument isn't completely unreasonable) and something posted on a much smaller project (say hr.wikibooks) which might be a very different environment to en.wp and so your argument is unreasonable. Thryduulf (talk) 11:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Thryduulf, I typically agree with you on everything OUTING/OS related, but I disagree here. The risk is people using this policy as a weapon to silence their political opponents based on something reasonable people would not consider outing. For example, if I post my Facebook and Twitter all over Commons and encourage people to contact me on my WhatsApp there, and then someone points out here that they’ve been canvassed via a Facebook post from me, that’s not reasonably construed as outing in my view. There’s substantially more risk of that happening than someone going to hr.wikibooks and trying to dig up dirt on my RL stuff. So while your counterpoint about #1 is correct, #2 doesn’t distinguish between the two either, and that is also a flaw. I’d be fine finding some compromise wording that would leave room for judgement in both your example and mine, however. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
      • I agree #2 doesn't distinguish either, but it offers a much greater protection against outing than #1 does while we work out the details of any compromise. That degree of protection is much more important than possible canvassing (and canvassing can be dealt without necessarily tieing it to a specific person anyway). Thryduulf (talk) 15:29, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
        • I agree that #2 offers more protection, but I also think the odds of us having someone who is public with their identity on a small language project are much lower than us having someone who is extremely public about their identity on meta or commons using our stricter outing rules to bludgeon opponents. I don’t at all want to make our outing rules less strict, but I don’t think someone who is running for a WMF board seat and has linked to their real life ID on meta should be able to request suppression of mention of that on en.wiki, and the wording of #2 currently would make that the case. As a compromise, I’d be fine to limiting it to meta, commons, and other English language Wikimedia projects (or even just meta and Commons.) TonyBallioni (talk) 18:10, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
• I tend toward #1, but I wonder if we shouldn't also protect persons who are somehow OUTED by others on those other Wikimedia projects by blocking/banning the offending editor. --Izno (talk) 18:17, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Izno, if xwiki outing is going on (and this has happened recently) stewards will lock the account and we'll coordinate with them or local oversighters to deal with the cleanup. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:52, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1. Regarding outing on another project — that's completely different from what this is talking about, since it only affects self-posted information. If we can't refer to voluntarily provided information, how will we define what's prohibited? Imagine that you post your identity on your Commons userpage but not here. Can I provide a link to the Commons diff where you added the name (or even your Commons userpage where that name appears) in a relevant discussion, or are we suddenly no longer allowed to provide links to Commons in certain circumstances? Moreover, I'm a Commons admin. Imagine that someone at Commons says "My name is John Smith" and claims a self-uploaded image here, as an own work, with a different name, e.g. "source={{own}}, author=John Jones". We have a copyright problem here: either one of them isn't an own work, or we're in a shared-account situation, but if #2 be the policy, I'm risking a siteban if I refer to this fact when nominating the en:wp image for deletion. Or maybe I just delete the image at Commons with a rationale of "COM:PCP — uploader claims this file and en:file:whatever as own works under different names, John Smith and John Jones". If someone else nominates the image for deletion here and quotes my Commons deletion rationale, #2 would make that person liable to sanctions: that's simply absurd. The point is harassment, not personal information: if you posted your information in a random conversation at the Azerbaijani Wikivoyage, and I then dump the diff in a dozen places here for no good reason, I need to be sanctioned for harassment, but if your posted-on-another-wiki identity is relevant to a discussion (e.g. Essjay controversy), there's no way we should sanction someone for referring to your posting in that discussion. Nyttend (talk) 21:56, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• #2 or no change. Particularly for those of us who go back to when they were entirely separate logins. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:11, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• #2 Completely and entirely. People should have the right to stay anonymous on the English Misplaced Pages (Which seems to already be the community interpretation in some cases but we should clarify this) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elitematterman (talk • contribs) 12:38, May 20, 2019 (UTC)

• Not to be permitted at all. We are not here to "out" anyone. Even if an editor posts up personal information about themselves, no matter where they post it or to what extent is the information detailed, we are not here to amplify or facilitate the dissemination of such information in any shape, way, or form. Even if the individual posts up personal information with an explicit permission (or even a request) to use that information any way we want, we should strictly avoid using it: We're not here to promote anyone, either.

Unless an individual has chosen to work in Misplaced Pages only under their real name, the correct way to address that individual is by their chosen Wkipedia-pseudonym.

We are here to improve the encyclopaedic content of Misplaced Pages. That's it. The social interaction encouraged by the existence of user pages and talk pages, as well as the existence of community projects, often confuse people. Well, Misplaced Pages is not a message board. -The Gnome (talk) 09:20, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

• My sentiments are wholly with The Gnome on this issue, but as a matter of written policy, I would err on the side of #2, per Lourdes and  SMcCandlish. Also amenable to no change whatsoever. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 16:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• #1 is the only workable option, per Nyttend. That is not to say that it isn't harassment, just that it shouldn't automatically be considered as such. As usual, common sense applies. ansh666 19:28, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• Not to be permitted at all. "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment." No matter where or when they may have posted it previously. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Lol what? Posting personal information that a user has disclosed willingly on-wiki is definitely not harassment. ~Swarm~ 18:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• They put it on their userpage once. Or they revealed their birthday in an innocuous post once. Now removed. You keep reposting it. Yes, that’s harassment. Why else would you keep reposting their personal information? Many early Wikipedians have vanished. Many new new admins quietly U1 their userpage before re-creating it. I don’t think this is a mere laughing matter at all. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:16, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

That particular scenario is already covered by policy though. Posting personal information that has been removed is already considered outing. Obviously the situation you describe is egregious harassment that would be treated with zero tolerance. You're currently only allowed to post personal information if it presently exists and has not been removed. Obviously I'm not harassing someone if I refer to a piece of information they're willingly hosting on their userpage. That's the only thing your proposed brightline stance would change. ~Swarm~ 06:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• #2The project is generally best served by being extremely conservative in protecting users' privacy. Situations in which personal information from off-(en)wiki is actually essential to a decision would be vanishingly rare, and in those circumstances we have systems in place to take sensitive evidence into account while preserving privacy. I can appreciate the philosophy behind arguing against ever republishing anyone's personal information, ever, but it would be very easy to breach such a strict policy by accident and incur heavy sanctions, or at least strongly worded warnings, despite acting in good faith and causing no real harm. —Rutebega (talk) 02:44, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• I don't know. I'd lean towards #1 if we were starting the project all over again, but I worry that there might be some unforeseen consequences for editors if we were to apply it retroactively. --Rschen7754 05:52, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Solidly #2. If I've never edited on a project, I don't consent to sharing my information there, even if I've shared it here. Recent incidents on the Azerbaijani and Amharic Wikipedias (detailed on Meta) make me wonder about the status of some of the sister projects. Having been outed and attacked on a sister project back in the day (when I wasn't "out" the way I am here), and having had to ask a Steward for help (because the local admins 'crats refused to do anything about the issue), I am very leery of anything like proposal 1. Guettarda (talk) 15:07, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support #2 -- this is further removed from the apparent intent of the current wording, but there is currently no policy forbidding anyone (even, AFAIAA, admins) from using different accounts with different levels of privacy regarding their own personal information on different Wikimedia projects. Unified login was pretty sloppy when it was introduced, and to the best of my knowledge there has never been any rule that says if I operate a different account on a different Wikimedia project with more personal information disclosed than my English Misplaced Pages account, that qualifies as justification for trying to link my English Misplaced Pages account to the other account; the proposed wording of #1 could very easily be interpreted that way. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:27, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

I would, however, be amenable to a version of #1 that clarified that only publicly connected accounts are included; having used more than one undisclosed account on a sister project is not a violation of en.wiki's sockpuppetry policy (or even, necessarily, the policies of our sister projects) and cannot, of course, be used as a justification for attempting to connect such accounts. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:24, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• #1 I support this change as outing can occur on any Misplaced Pages or other Wikimedia projects, not just the English version. However, I propose shortening the addition "on the English Misplaced Pages or another public Wikimedia project" to instead simply "on any public Wikimedia project" as it is more concise and more accurate. —TheSameGuy (talk) 12:41, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

@TheSameGuy: You seem to be reading the proposed changes the opposite way to me and the first few !votes up top (I haven't read everything); it is assumed that outing an en.wiki user on another Wikimedia project is forbidden, but the difference between the proposals is whether it is "okay" to repeat personal information that someone has disclosed on a sister project. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:24, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• #1 is the better and cmorecomprehensive rule, and will provide for most special cases. DGG ( talk ) 02:02, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• #2 is the tighter and therefore (especially when it comes to matters of actual people and privacy) the better rule. Happy days, Lindsay 06:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• My preference order is: #1, no change, alternate (below), #2. With all WMF public wikis linked under one set of common log-ins (CentralAuth / SUL), we should allow the scope of "not outing" to include all WMF public wikis. Deryck C. 13:34, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
• #1 - I don't use my first name on here, but I have published it on Commons. So if anyone was to use my first name on en-Wiki, I would not consider it to be a violation of WP:OUTING. "Misplaced Pages" should be taken to mean any language Misplaced Pages and associate projects. Mjroots (talk) 10:06, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
• Each projects are indeed independent but it's still inter-connected. #1 if you dare wonder. — regards, Revi 11:26, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
• I'm not quite sure how to interpret this change if the outing info is posted to a different language that many struggle to find an online translation of the evidence (e.g. African or North American aboriginal languages). OhanaUnited 16:09, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Alternate proposal

Per discussion above and below, I'm proposing an alternate compromise wording:

unless that person has voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on the English Misplaced Pages, Wikimedia Commons, Meta-Wiki or Wikidata.

• Support per discussions above and below. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• Ping of those who have already commented@Risker, Thryduulf, Bradv, Mkdw, GreenMeansGo, SMcCandlish, Xaosflux, MarginalCost, Wugapodes, Doc James, Benjaminikuta, Sir Joseph, Icewhiz, StudiesWorld, Izno, Pbsouthwood, QEDK, Lourdes, BU Rob13, Tryptofish, MelanieN, and Barkeep49: I think that got everyone. If I missed someone, please feel free to let them know. Also noting that I do not see this as affecting en.wiki's policy of suppressing information regarding children, which to their shame other projects do not follow. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:14, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support I like that. It would avoid the situation I had (which precipitated this whole discussion) in which a user who had revealed his real name on another language Misplaced Pages was strongly opposed to having it given out here. I gather there was a similar situation involving a person who was "out" as an admin on another language Wiki, but did not wish to be "out" here. People may very well be more comfortable giving personal information among what they feel to be their peers, their co-linguists, without wanting it broadcast to the world. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• I'm more-or-less neutral about this. I think that it is better than #1 above, and slightly inferior to #2, and I'm also not entirely convinced that it is needed. I remain uncomfortable with my previously stated concern that someone should be able to have an account here without having to worry about what they might have posted elsewhere, so I guess one could consider that a mild oppose, but it's not something that I would fight over. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:28, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • After reading subsequent comments by other editors, I'm coming back to move from neutral to Oppose. I see no good in making fair game out of personal information posted anywhere else. So to summarize my views, I Support #2 above as well as no change, and I Oppose #1 above and this alternate. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
• 2nd choice to 1. I mean it's a unified account so the idea that we only count disclosures in English spaces is better than nothing but strikes me as overly cautious. I again am not sure that this whole RfC was needed (see Mkdw) but not now that it's out there rather than what I had felt to be acceptable status quo I am on board with this compromise. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:46, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• Nah. A unified account means, quite literally, that your accounts are automatically linked together. It's a bit nuts to consider information posted in another language Misplaced Pages from the same exact account to be outing. It would be like restricting personal information posted in one namespace on enwiki from being discussed on other namespaces. Just doesn't make much sense. ~ Rob₁₃ 21:56, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• 2nd choice to 2. I still think it is best to allow silos, but this would be acceptable.StudiesWorld (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• No idea how to feel about this. I agree with Rob, it is a bit weird to draw information posted to a public wiki and consider that as outing, but then again, a lot of the information we post off-wiki is public as well, just not connected and that is quite obviously, considered OUTing. There is an obvious grey area, with how we are connecting accounts and which wikis' information become considered as OUTing. I'd say I weakly support this proposal, at best. My take is as simple as I commented on the thread before, it is useless to waste your time OUTing anyone, there's just no point in it — just don't do it. --qedk (t 桜 c) 22:07, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support as compromise, though I still prefer 2 above. I don't find the unified login arguments very convincing; someone blocked on dewiki isn't automatically blocked here so we already ignore "unified" accounts when blocking. I don't understand why we would be reluctant to extend privacy for users across projects because of a silly technological feature. Of course there will be exceptions that obviously aren't outing, but we generally shouldn't be creating a loophole for bad faith actors to go snooping around other projects for harassment material. Wugapodes 22:31, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• 2nd Choice to 2 above Sir Joseph 23:40, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose – in almost every case it would be considered unwise to bring information cross-wiki without the subject's permission, but it should not be a violation of OUTING to do so. I'm particularly concerned by the idea that investigations into issues such as paid editing or conflict of interest might be hampered with restrictions on cross-wiki evidence. For this reason I still prefer #1 above, and my second choice would be to leave the text ambiguous. – bradv🍁 00:10, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Paid editing and COI allegations are not reasons to dismiss outing concerns, and they are not exceptions to the outing policy (either before or after these proposals) which is why there is a specific email address to forward such evidence to so that you don't need to make non-public information public. Thryduulf (talk) 00:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

    Sure it is - forcing such information to get sent to functionaries by email rather than posted in an ANI thread, COIN thread, or arbitration case definitely could have a chilling effect on such investigations. And if a user has linked to their twitter account on one wiki, and then on another claims they weren't off-wiki canvassing and whoever is accusing them should be blocked for outing, this policy change would also hamper that investigation. – bradv🍁 00:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• 2nd choice to #2 above, mostly per Wugapodes. Thryduulf (talk) 00:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• 2nd choice to #2 above as above. Lourdes 02:36, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• 2nd choice to #1 above. If someone revealed info on a language-Misplaced Pages they use once in a blue moon - I can see why this makes sense. However for users whose primary language-wiki is something other than enwiki (e.g. an account with 100k edits on dewiki, and 1k edits on enwiki) - looking at their userpage on their primary language wiki should be allowed.Icewhiz (talk) 03:30, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• 2nd choice to #1 above. If someone revealed they are a paid editor in Hebrew yes we can use those details in discussions on EN WP. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:32, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Bradv. Cross wiki info is not outing. Benjamin (talk) 05:33, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• meh. More complicated than one and no improvement on the other. On the other hand, no strong feelings about it either. Will go with the flow. · · · Peter Southwood : 07:08, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

*2nd Choice to #2 above.. Mostly support though. Tbh I feel like this is probably going to be the best choice in the end. (Also I didn't forget to sign this time c:) --NikkeKatski (talk) 13:56, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• Like tryptofish I also am actually going to completely Oppose #1 and the Alternate Proposal in favor of Supporting #2. As I really don't like the idea of "Cherrypicking" Information on other people by going as far out as they can in attempt to out someone. The Gnome has some really good points however I think that perhaps in some cases it may be the only option. --NikkeKatski (talk) 13:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

• Not to be permitted at all. We are not here to "out" anyone. Even if an editor posts up personal information about themselves, no matter where they post it or to what extent is the information detailed, we are not here to amplify or facilitate the dissemination of such information in any shape, way, or form. Even if the individual posts up personal information with an explicit permission (or even a request) to use that information any way we want, we should strictly avoid using it: We're not here to promote anyone, either.

Unless an individual has chosen to work in Misplaced Pages only under their real name, the correct way to address that individual is by their chosen Wkipedia-pseudonym.

We are here to improve the encyclopaedic content of Misplaced Pages. That's it. The social interaction encouraged by the existence of user pages and talk pages, as well as the existence of community projects, often confuse people. Well, Misplaced Pages is not a message board. -The Gnome (talk) 09:20, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

The Gnome Let's play that out. Say someone has identified who they are on a different Wikimedia project. They come here, and, bypassing AfC, write an article about themselves. This would be promoting themselves but we would be banned from pointing this out because to do so would be OUTING by your standard. How do you reconcile this? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Exposing a violation of policy should never be inhibited. Therefore, that would be the sole exception to the rule I support, since, by creating an article about themselves, the editor has violated Misplaced Pages policy. Thanks for this very valuable comment, Barkeep49. -The Gnome (talk) 09:02, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• 2nd choice to #2 above: per above arguments, especially those by Wugapodes. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 16:45, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Because good-faith editors would get indeffed because they did not read the policy change. Changing policy too much makes it unpredictable. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

How would good-faith editors get blocked that way exactly? I don't really see it. --NikkeKatski (talk) 21:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

The consensus is that outing deserves indeffing. If some good-faith editor fails to read the policy change and violates the new policy, he/she will get indeffed, although he/she meant no harm. E.g. outing someone who disclosed his/her own identity at de.wiki. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:54, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I see your point and it is definitely valid but imo I think the change is worth it. --NikkeKatski (talk) 00:51, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Indef blocking for outing is not mandatory; it is an admin decision. In the discussion at the other page, several people said that revealing an identity that was disclosed on another wiki should be reverted and probably revdel'ed, but the person who did it would not necessarily be blocked. Admins are capable of recognizing good faith vs. bad faith - malicious harassment vs. innocent mistake - and adjusting their response accordingly. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, I don't see a point to cherrypicking projects (or whatever they're called) to allow or disallow; either all or nothing makes more sense. All of the different projects are interconnected, not just these four. ansh666 06:26, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
• Nope. Doesn't address any of the concerns I raised at all. Maybe this is a compromise for someone(s), but it's just an "I'm not hearing you" to me.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:00, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• I haven't come to a decision on the original proposal, but I would have to Oppose as I don't see why there would be a difference here. --Rschen7754 05:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per my comment in the section above. Guettarda (talk) 15:08, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Strong Support per discussions above and below.   —  Hei Liebrecht 22:06, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as I mentioned in the above discussion, outing can occur on any public projects, so I don't see the point in limiting it to just the English Misplaced Pages and a few other projects. —TheSameGuy (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose This provides too many opportunities for gaming. #1 is the better rule. DGG ( talk ) 02:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• Prefer #1 above. I understand the rationale that some people don't want personal information to cross language boundaries, but I disagree with this rationale both in principle (something written publicly in a different language ought not to be treated as less public) and in practice (why are Commons and Wikidata singled out, but not English Wiktionary, English Wikibooks, etc?). Deryck C. 13:39, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
• 1 If you put content into Wikimedia projects, I don't see how using that information could be outing. As Mkdw mentions, most references to Misplaced Pages should be changed to Wikimedia projects. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:03, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

• What does "publicly" mean in this context, and why are we proposing to add this word? – bradv🍁 19:33, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  @Bradv: - This is to disqualify private Wikimedia projects, such as otrs.wiki and possibly also office.wiki. GMG 19:37, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  GreenMeansGo, okay that makes sense. In that case I would propose a slight rewording, to "on the English Misplaced Pages or another public Wikimedia project." – bradv🍁 19:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

   Done GMG 19:42, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

• "#1" above wouldn't really need the "or", since enwiki is a member of the later group. — xaosflux 20:23, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  Either one is fine with me. The meaning is unchanged. GMG 20:33, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

• It should probably also clarify that accounts must be publicly linked, such as with a unified login. If someone has an account name that is different and not publicly linked on another project, then none of their personal information may be cross-posted despite the fact that they publicly disclosed their information on another Wikimedia project. Mkdw 23:52, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

  Honest question @Mkdw: Do these still exists? I thought we rectified the old system with the new SUL some time ago. GMG 00:25, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

  And yes, I understand that this would cascade through the rest of the section, but would establish a principle none-the-less, in the interest of putting together a succinct and intelligible RfC. GMG 00:36, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we even allow alternate accounts here on Misplaced Pages. While SUL may unify that name across all projects, it would not prevent an individual from having multiple accounts. Mkdw 04:23, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

And it only unifies in cases where the same user ID actually belongs to the same person, which is not always the case.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:04, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the relevance. If someone registers an alternate account for privacy reasons, as is allowed by policy, and they have not publicly disclosed a connection between those accounts, I don't know that there's any interpretation of policy that would not consider that a form of outing. Per policy and standard practice, if there are reasons that the connection between the two accounts or the individual person need to be examined, they should be emailed to ArbCom or a functionary. There is no sense that I see where this would change that arrangement one way or the other.

As to the other comments, as I indicated above, any policy on outing, including the current one, is not leave to be disruptive, or to post personal information, even information which has already been disclosed, in settings where that information serves no legitimate purpose. But neither does it make sense that, given a consistent application of an "en.wiki-only interpretation", if you disclose on Commons, Meta or it.wiki that you are the public relations officer for X Pharma Inc, I now need to email that to ArbCom because we have to act like Commons doesn't exist, even though it's the same account editing cross-wiki. GMG 12:26, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

• I think it's also worth mentioning that the example used for the proposal was a case where the person in question was "strongly objecting to having their identity revealed here". Mkdw 07:02, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
• I would prefer some language like unless subsequently rescinded be included as well. If someone admitted their real name 10 years ago (possibly even on another project), and has since made clear they wish to avoid drawing further attention to that indiscretion, their wish should be respected. MarginalCost (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
• I would prefer a third way, similar to what TonyBallioni suggested: if the user has published their information on English Misplaced Pages, or one of the three "global" projects (Meta, Commons and/or Wikidata). Otherwise, #1 with the inclusion of "any software operated by Wikimedia". Thus, mailing lists, phabricator, github, Discourse and a few other locations. Risker (talk) 02:34, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • If we're going down that way (which I think is probably generally good) I'd rather be more specific than "mailing lists" as there are many lists with differing degrees of privacy expectation. For example posting using your real name on Misplaced Pages-l is different to doing so on the Functionaries list for example. Thryduulf (talk) 10:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
    • That's fair. I'd suggest "mailing lists hosted by the WMF that are publicly accessible" instead, although we might want to limit that even further. There are a huge number of non-private lists at m:Mailing_lists/Overview, and I'd suggest eliminating those that are chapter-based, related to another project, or non-English. (I'd leave in the technical ones, though.) I once had to persuade an administrator to unblock someone who got blocked for referring to me by my first name (which I commonly use on mailing lists); I can't claim "privacy" when my full name is there (including photos!) on Meta, and I'm really hesitant to grant it to someone who tries to do so when the information is easily accessible via SUL on another Wikimedia project. I've been writing about this for more than 10 years, and I'm still stunned at how unaware people are about their personal responsibility with respect to their privacy. Risker (talk) 01:32, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• Query. A number of us have been here since long before the global logins. Should details have to be posted on other Mediawiki sites after the change to global logins? Espresso Addict (talk) 05:58, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• @Espresso Addict: What do you mean by that? --qedk (t 桜 c) 06:10, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@QEDK: A justification for this being an obvious change is that with global login, every editor has only a single Mediawiki account. When I joined, this was not the case. For years, I had more than one account with different passwords, to which I gave somewhat different information. Global login only came along much later, and somewhat against my will, my accounts were automatically associated. I personally strongly do not wish any information I gave to other sites to be publicised on en-Misplaced Pages. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:16, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

If you want to keep your accounts separate, you could always just use separate accounts. Benjamin (talk) 06:28, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether that's permitted. But I certainly can't now untangle accounts that were separate, and were inextricably linked to one another by no action of mine, years after I created them. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:49, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Privacy is a legitimate reason to have multiple accounts, as long as they're not used illegitimately, of course. Benjamin (talk) 06:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

You can have infinite alts as long as you don't use them illegimately. Disclosure is necessary sometimes, because you cannot have your alt edit different topic areas with 100% unquestionable behaviour. Accounts were globalized because SUL could not work with different passwords for each wiki, thus single user login. It was a good step towards tracking cross-wiki behaviour and questionable behaviour across wikis meant that it was now associated with that SUL account, instead of separate accounts. --qedk (t 桜 c) 07:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• Just a question but.. If A large portion of us prefer the alternate proposal as a second choice (Both #1 and #2 supporters) would that mean the alternate proposal is considered the "better" choice as it can appeal to both sides? (In some way) --NikkeKatski (talk) 15:26, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• I realized, in discussion at another board, that part of the problem here is that OUTING is treated as a subset of this article, WP:Harassment. But IMO they are kind of different issues. Harassment sounds like it should be about actions done with malice - actions that deserve punishment. But personal private information should be protected, to whatever extent that we decide here, regardless of the motive of the person who reveals it. For that matter, once it has been revealed, blocking the person who revealed it does not solve the problem; the genie is out of the bottle. Maybe this question - whether personal information/outing should be treated as a subset of harassment - should be reconsidered in a separate thread. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
• I firmly believe that editors should be allowed to edit pseudonymously here without fear of being revealed, and that our OUTING policy is an important protection for this. However, I have increasingly encountered situations in which an editor is not trying to hide their identity (e.g. they edit under their real and uncommon first name in a specialized area in which they are a leading expert, or reveal their identity publicly but off-wiki) and I am unable to give them public credit on off-wiki forums for the good editing work they are doing, because they did not bother to explicitly and on-wiki write their full names. In exercises like this where we try to parse more carefully what has already been revealed and what should be considered still private, we should think about whether we are setting up barriers that will prevent good editors from being publicly recognized as good editors, something that I think is important in encouraging more contributors to join the project. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Status quo for first choice, #2 for second choice. I'm uncomfortable with anything that encourages is to turn into amateur detectives. Even hunting through edit histories ON en.wikipedia for IRL information feels creepy. I don't like any change that encourages such nonsense.--Jayron32 10:18, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Addition to WP:HOUND

Could we add a clause that more explicitly states the policy (as agreed to by all members of ArbCom who were elected last year, virtually all members of the 2015 ArbCom, and pretty much every other long-term contributor I've talked to on the matter) that it is not hounding to go through another editor's contributions if one believes there are serious issues with textual plagiarism, misreading of sources, etc.? Use of wording like "an apparent aim" and so on implies we are starting out with the assumption that hounding is taking place, since in common parlance that word implies something that appears to be the case, whether or not it actually is, and "usually for collegial or administrative purposes" seems to imply that anyone who is engaged in malicious POV-pushing or the like can just say they don't feel comfortable with User X monitoring their edits and it is therefore not "collegial", when I'm pretty sure that doing so for the good of the encyclopedia is not considered hounding whether or not the offending party considers it to be collegial; how about "usually for purposes of improving the encyclopedia" or the like? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:20, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

I think we need to be careful about making any such changes, because they can potentially open up a lot of opportunities for wikilawyering by users who actually are hounding someone. I'm not aware of bogus accusations of hounding being a problem; such accusations happen, but they are usually recognized for what they are. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: I'm not aware of bogus accusations of hounding being a problem See the most recent ANI archive; the accusations were recognized, but not before a bunch of users showed up and said "well, the accusations are bogus, and ongoing despite multiple warnings, but let's not warn them this time and see if it works out better". See also the 2015 Hijiri88/Catflap08 case, where a bogus hounding accusation went so long with only the long-term allies of the victim (me, in case I need to explicitly disclose that) noticing it that it led to an IBAN, which in turn went all the way up to ArbCom, where ArbCom said pretty clearly "No, that wasn't hounding" -- and yet people were still trying to pretend that wasn't what they said as late as summer of last year. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I actually am aware of those various things. It's not up to me, and if other editors want to pursue this further, I'm happy to follow the discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Actually, someone just tried to do exactly that ^^^, they were in violation, but tried to claim they were being helpful, citing the fact that those of us who clean up after vandals and copyvios etc do have to follow contribs. It didn't fly. I added the following before seeing the above, so I'll go take another look and see if I think it needs any more tweaks.

Per a discussion at ANI about the spirit of this policy being violated, I have added a clause to the last paragraph to emphasize that it's not always about the type of edits made when a user is hounding another; the main problem is the hounding itself. It now reads, with the new text italicized here: The important component of hounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or disruption to the project generally, for no overriding reason. Even if the individual edits themselves are not disruptive per se, "following another user around", if done to cause distress (such as following an editor with whom the user is in conflict), or if the following is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions. - CorbieV ☼ 19:38, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I think that your addition was a good one, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:40, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

As was yours, Thank you, too. :) - CorbieV ☼ 21:21, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan: Are you referring to the thread you recently opened at ANI? That was not "exactly that"; following around editors you don't like for the purpose of harassing/intimidating/whatevering them, and not directly reverting their edits but making it clear you are monitoring their edits without good reason is not at all even comparable to following the edits of a disruptive editor and reverting those edits because those edits are disruptive. It's practically the opposite: if the person claimed they were monitoring disruptive editors, that claim could be easily refuted by pointing out that if their "followees"' edits had been disruptive they would have reverted them.

I was hounded once in 2012/2013 by an editor behaving in the above-described manner, but I've encountered far more bad-faith hounding accusations, so I really don't think editing this policy page to make it harder to violate this policy in the former but easier to violate it in the latter. I don't mind the recent additions overall, but I think such as following an editor with whom the user is in conflict definitely needs to be discussed: any disruptive POV-pusher can claim to be "in conflict" with an editor who is protecting the encyclopedia from their disruption. Believe me, when you edit in topic areas like I often do, proving consistent violation of our content policies to the community at ANI or to ArbCom is extremely difficult, and making this policy more permissive of their argument that it's "just a regular conflict between Wikipedians" is not likely to help improve the experience of building the encyclopedia. Pinging User:Curly Turkey and User:Nishidani, who can vouch for what I'm talking about: a certain disruptive editor whose username was 11 characters long created massive problems for our Japanese history articles over a period of more than three years. (It wasn't anyone I've ever been IBANned with -- I'm not naming them because I suspect both the pinged editors could name the editor in question off the top of their head without needing to look it up despite how long ago it was, because that's how bad it was.) The user frequently made bad-faith hounding accusations, and was for a time able to get a sympathetic ear at ANI from those members of the community who looked at the content of their edits and couldn't tell immediately that they were disastrous for the project. We still have not fully cleared up all of the messes they caused. And I've encountered similar problems with other editors more recently -- serial plagiarists, POV pushers, and generally tendentious editors don't want their disruptive editors monitored and reverted, but the harassment policy is not meant to enable them.

The proposed wording would make them technically right to say that editors who were "in conflict with them" were hounding them by going around reverting their edits, even though this was never the case -- they made disruptive edits, and knowledgeable and diligent Wikipedians went to the effort of undoing those edits.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:34, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: I like the above "addition" (support) for clarification. If "hound" was meant literally not to follow any editor it could hinder many forms of maintenance on Misplaced Pages so the wording "for no overriding reason" seems important. Otr500 (talk) 13:48, 8 June 2019 (UTC)]]

The user hounding me did try to claim they were just following me to be helpful to the 'pedia. They tried to claim they didn't know about the Recent Changes or Random Page functions so had to use other editors' contribs as their watchlist. As someone who's also had to clean up against long-term vandals, and those who've flown under the radar for years as citespammers, or those who've used the wiki to push POVs or even perpetuate hoaxes, I deeply sympathize with not having this abused against those of us who have to use a disruptive user's contribs to clean up their mess and abuse. I am open to whatever we need to do to keep it clear that cleaning up after disruption is completely different from a creep stalking a constructive editor. - CorbieV ☼ 17:41, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment