Misplaced Pages

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Ganser's Work Written With Both Eyes Closed

See this book review, where the reviewer easily discredits the so-called scholarly nature of propagandist Daniele Ganser's work.

It isn't "so-called" scholarly just because you don't like it, and just because you like the reviewer's opinion more doesn't mean he "easily discredits" anything. Frankly, you don't have the slightest idea what constitutes scholarly nature. Hint: It's not telling you what you want to hear. The fact that you continue to suggest yourself to possess greater expertise than entire university departments is what easily discredits you. Grabbing random pages off the web has nothing to do with "discrediting scholarly nature". Maybe before rambling about "so-called scholarly nature", you familiarize yourself with the concept of peer review. --OliverH 17:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

OliverH, theres no point getting cross with Morton. His aims here are so hypocritical as to be laughable. He is a caricature wont unto flesh. His world view is so narrow that a cigarette paper of enlightenment could not be slipped between his prejudice and his bigotry, etc.

The funniest thing is that he hadn't even read Ganser's book, and sees no reason to, before dismissing it. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 17:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I have been published in an academic journal, and was an associate editor for an entire year. I've spaded (i.e. citation and fact-checked) dozens of articles at the doctoral level. Yes, I'm quite familiar with peer-reviewed work, and I'm telling you that Ganser's work would not have passed review where I edited, because a review of his primary sources would have revealed their tabloid nature and outright fabrication. So much for academic rigor. Morton Devonshire 18:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you read it? Raemie 18:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Just been looking through the 960 references in Ganser's book. Can't see any `tabloids'. Which ones are your referring to specifically? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 21:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That Ganser's work would not have passed peer review where you edited may well be. The question is whether there would have been academic reasons for it or if it would just have been your lack of scholarly integrity. "Academic rigor" is what your conduct is completely, and utterly, devoid of, because no one considering himself seriously a scholar would "criticise" an academic publication in the defamatory and unscholarly way you are doing it. Most of all, no one would dare raise accusations of fabrication without bringing more than arrogant, jingoistic "everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot" language. No one seriously considering himself a scholar would grab random articles off the web claiming they prove anything, much less that a few lines of unreferences text would debunk an academic publication. Raising allegations of fabrication without any evidence clearly demonstrates the complete and utter lack of scholarly integrity on your part. Your "editing" would fit neatly into a chinese government publication. --OliverH 23:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The Journal of Intelligence History is very scholarly and reputable and they say "Ganser fails to present proof of and an in-depth explanation of the claimed conspiracy...." That's pretty lacking in a book that claims a conspiracy. --Tbeatty 03:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Even a cursory examination of the literature would reveal that FM 31-30B is a fake, a document which Ganser accepts without critical examination, and relies upon heavily in forming his conclusions. Morton Devonshire 08:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ganser does not accept the FM without criticism and certainly does not 'rely heavily' on it for his conclusions. He mentions it on 3 pages in the book of 300 pages and it is 1 of 960 sources.

It is quite clear that you have not read the book.... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 10:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation to the fabricated Field Manual is enough to call the whole work into question, but that's just the low-hanging fruit. I've read the relevant discussion about the FM, and he's hardly skeptical of its sourcing. Morton Devonshire 17:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

So you admit you haven't read the book? Don't you think its dishonest to dismiss a book you haven;t read and make comments on that books' `tabloid' sources, when you have no idea what you are talking about? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 17:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Its not a provocation, its a very serious question. Its important for every editor you work with to understand what you think is acceptable behaviour. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 17:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I personally don't have time to read all the crackpot books. There are enough legitimate historical references to read. But in the context of Misplaced Pages, your reading and interpretation of Ganser is Original Research and reading it is not required to find critical references to it. Other people have found his use of the FM to question all of his conclusions and, indeed, his methods. The only thing I have seen that you have provided to support him is a vague affiliation with a University. Nothing at all though that rises to a peer reviewed substantial historical journal. There are two facts worth noting 1) Ganser wrote it and 2) it is a bunch of baloney. --Tbeatty 00:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This is the best one yet! `Its a conspiracy theory because I haven't read it, and I haven't read it because its a conspiracy'. Further your suggesting that if I read it and you don't, thats Original Research. Ha ha. Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I know you know this, but I'll repeat it again - The book itself has been reviewed and accepted by one of the world's best universities - and here's a list of Ganser's other peer reviewed journal publications .

You attempt to use misquoted wikipedia policy as a mental shield against reality. It doesn't work and just make you look silly. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 00:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I take that back. Sorry Tbeatty. The stupidest thing I ever heard was actually Mongo this morning claiming that Occam's Razer was a danger and threat to 'bodily harm'. Its hard to beat that!... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 00:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, I saw the conversation over at ANI earlier today. Seabhcan, why do you want to bring that subject here? JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 01:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Mainly because its just so delightfully funny! ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 01:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not see this as a joking matter. Seabhcan, I am asking you this out of personal request, please stop. Have you not considered what has been discussed at your RfC? JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 01:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Has no-one a sense of humour around here anymore? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 01:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I presume the logical intuition that has led you to trust Ganser has also lead you to the fallacy that you stated above. I am glad you read Ganser. It means nothing however. I make no claims about whether someone has read Ganser or not read Ganser makes it a conspiracy theory. However, the criticism from third party sources is what is relevant to Misplaced Pages, not your own interpretation. Nor does someone's lack of familiarity with that work make their criticism using third party source less valid than your own. Further, you seem unfamiliar with Ph.D. dissertations. They are reviewed based on the individuals ability to do research and also on it's novelty. Those are the two major requirements. Ganser has done plenty of research and his conclusions and analysis are novel. Whence the Ph.D.

So here's the deal: If Morton says that the Editors at Historical Review say Ganser is a loon, and you retort with "No, I read it and he is right." Guess who gets to put his stuff in Misplaced Pages? If your retort to Morton's sourced criticism is your own personal interpretation of what you read, well, that and a quarter will get you a phone call in the U.S. (that's probably a Euro where you live). --Tbeatty 03:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Do the editors at historical review say 'he's a loon'? Is that opinion in print and is it peer reviewed? Or is it just some crap you pulled of a blog somewhere? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 03:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I just made it up. Is English your first language? I also made up Historical Review. The policy is that third party verfifiable sources are preferred over your opinion. You can memorize Ganser word-for-word and I won't care what you have to say about it. Only that you can source it. The same is for Morton. If Morton sources "Ganser is a loon." that trumps your "Ganser is right and I meomorized his work in anticipation of making him God-King.". --Tbeatty 03:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Roland Rance

I tagged Roland Rance with a db-bio, but someone removed it. I am considering an AfD. The subject just does not seem notable. He chaired a meeting that looks like it was attended by a couple dozen souls at best, another source doesn't seem to exist anymore, and one source is an online petition. He has had a collection of his pamphlets published. I don't think this qualifies for the CT board, or I would have posted on the talk page there. What do you think? If he is truly notable, it isn't established in the article. Crockspot 21:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to have any reliable sources, just citations to blogs. Place a tag on it requesting citations, like {{primary sources}}. If it doesn't get fixed in two weeks, then nom it. Morton Devonshire 02:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Another list of pages

• User:Rhobite/9/11 watchlist

Tom Harrison 14:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Daniel Pearl

Whats up Monty? The President of a country where a thing happens says something interesting on that topic and you call that "undue weight". Its one sentence. Do you think that the President of Pakistan is a 'conspiracy theorist'? Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 20:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

First, that sort of thing may belong in the Musharraf article, but here (in Daniel Pearl) by itself without examination it is undue weight. Second, my name is not 'Monty' -- if you wish to shorten it, call me Mort, Morty, Matt or MD. Lastly, please refrain from personal characterizations such as "obsession" -- it's not appropriate on Misplaced Pages to make ad hominem attacks. I know you have been warned about this before -- I do not wish to bring an Rfc or Arbcom case against you -- I think they are mostly ineffective. Instead, I will just ask you politely here to stop making insulting comments towards me. Thank you. Morton Devonshire 20:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You are very sensitive to criticism, Mo-ty, but I don't 'attack' you. I am sensitive to your attacks on wikipedia content. If you believe the comment by the president of Pakistan on the case is 'undue weight' why do you leave the next comment which states, "The U.S. Government believes that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed conspired in the kidnapping." Is this not equally unweighted? Or do you think everything your government says is gospel? I will remove this statement also for the time being. Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 20:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Say it with me: "Morty". I know you can do it. Morton Devonshire 21:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How about Devon Mortonshire? Feel like answering the question yet? Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 21:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Baloney, this looks like borderline trolling. Just thought you ought to know. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 21:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks for your support. Mo-ty needs to learn to put his fanatical nationalism to one side when he edits. Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 21:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here, I am not "supporting" you - especially since you cannot have a discussion without attempting to push someone’s buttons. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 21:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, but pushing Mo-ty's buttons is so easy and fun. You should try. Its addictive. Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 21:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

So this means you admit that you are trolling? JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 22:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No. I'm calling Mo-ty on his biased edits. When I do that he ignores my point and choses to be distracted by my misspelling his name (which is childish - few people ever spell my name correctly yet I take the time to answer their questions anyway) So, Morty, any hope of you explaining why a comment by the US government on an event in Pakistan is acceptable while a comment by the Pakistani government is 'undue weight'? Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 22:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

First, knock off the insults. You are not accomplishing anything. Second, with your confrontational attitude, I wouldn’t deal with you at all. You got off to a bad start on this one. I wouldn’t keep this harassment up if I were you. Cheers. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 22:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't think it would make any difference. After months and years of dealing with people like morty, TDS, Mongo, and the rest, it is clear that they have no interest in wikipedia. They are here to push their personal nationalistic bias. History, citation, reality, take a back seat to promotion of their personal myths. Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 23:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, okay, if you feel that way, I'll let you have a chance to prove it.--MONGO 07:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

RfC

I have opened a request for comment at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Seabhcan. Tom Harrison 20:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

OMG

How did you do that thing with the title of your talk page, I must learn. Miltopia 22:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

All of the formatting is borrowed from User:ST47. One trick learned from him is that he also uses a header which is a separate page that he has built, and then inserts using the page name inside little two sets of opening and closing paranthesis. See his page and the one marked Head to see what I mean. Morton Devonshire 02:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Olbermann/Rumsfeld edit war

Hi, I started a topic in the Keith Olbermann discussion about the recent edit war. I invite you to contribute. Thanks, CalebNoble 09:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

'Nother conspiracy

What needs deleting. See here. This one may take some off-wiki work, but I'm sure you'll manage to get her scrubbed anyway. Cheers. 23:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.203.2.85 (talk • contribs)

Now, now. Must play nice here. Morton Devonshire 23:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't trouble yourself Mort. I've already faxed Rove, and the helicopters are spinning up as I post this. - Crockspot 00:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Black helicopters??? JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 19:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Not just any black helicopters. We have our own VRWC-Logo fleet! - Crockspot 19:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Awesome pic. Blackhawks? Morton Devonshire 21:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's another two cruft articles: Pierre Amine Gemayel and Rafik Hariri. There are editors suggesting it was some kind of conspiracy! Silly people - we all know conspiracies never happen. These were clearly cases of suicide and/or lone gunmen. Get de-crufting! ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 21:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to start your own conspiracy notice board. I would keep it in your own space though. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 21:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Na, I trust Morty to route out all this conspiracy stuff. I know he doesn't just do it for America-related conspiracy theories. That would be biased. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 21:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I know we all joke about conspiracy theories, and most of them are of little consequence because they are so outlandish. Those are the ones I'm most interested in eliminating here because they are not described widely by reputable sources. With respect to the two honorable gentlemen, Prime Minister Hariri and Mr. Gemayel, I will ask kindly that you not joke about their deaths. My friends in Beirut are heartbroken, and tell me that there are at least a dozen more assasinations carried out by Syrian agents that we haven't yet heard about in the Western press. No, not a laughing matter at all. Morton Devonshire 00:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I can assure you that Hariri and Gemayel are not the butt of my joke. But I note with interest that you seem to believe the conspiracy theories regarding Syria's involvement. Have you seen any evidence of it? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 00:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say Syria at the behest of their masters, Iran. There are conspiracies in the world, they just don't involve teh hand of Rove crumpling the WTC. - Crockspot 00:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

True or not, there is no evidence of that theory publicly available. I'm interested why you choose to believe it? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 01:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Bill Kristol told me it was true. :O - Crockspot 01:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I see. Why think for yourself when you have someone to do it for you, eh? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 01:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You catch on quick! Crockspot 01:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Iran isn't Syria's master as they are not particularly aligned religiously or ideologically. However they both support the terrorist group Hizbollah. They both support terrorism against Israel and they both thwart Democracy in Lebanon by undermining the legitimate government. Neither country wants Lebanon to go the way of Jordan and Egypt - namely peace and prosperity while bordering Israel. --Tbeatty 01:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Peace and prosperous! Egypt and Jordan? Read up on them, they are both brutal dictatorships with massive poverty and unemployment. Egypt recently passed a law making it illegal to accuse a public official of corruption!

Israel isn't exactly interested in a democratic Lebanon either. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 01:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't have to read any more about them as I've been to Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon and have seen it. Israel certainly wants a democratic Lebanon that controls it's borders. It also wants a democratic Palestine that controls it's borders. It's like saying they don't want a democratic Egypt or Jordan. Certainly they do. --Tbeatty 01:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If Israel wanted a democratic Palestine independently in control of its own borders why has it built hundreds of settlements throughout the west bank? Do it intend that the settlers will become Palestinian citizens when the new state is formed? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 01:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

What do the West Bank settlements have to do with Palestine democracy? The west bank is what it is. There are few if any Palestinians in the settlements. Talking about west bank settlements is about as pointless as talking about right of return. But to help you out, Israel is building a fence to define the border so that settlements cease to be an issue. One side of the fence is Israel, the other side can be a democratic palestine. --Tbeatty 03:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a common misconception. The settlements are distributed right across the west bank and are connected with each other by a vast network of highways which the Palestinians need permits to cross. The West Bank is no longer a single continuous territory but an archipelago of Palestinian land, literally walled in by a sea of Israeli controlled land and roads. You can't make a country out of that. Its a prison. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 11:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

One user's view

Hey guy. I saw where "stone" censored your questioning his accusations. I was thinking of confronting him about it myself, but he doesn’t look to friendly. I’ll just let his comments at the RfC suffice to let everyone see his "good faith". I didn’t know I was part of a cabal. I didn’t know someone could make accusations like that and get away with it. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 20:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is where I am “honored” as part of the cabal. In his own words: I have been frequenting one of the boards on which this cabal of page vandals -- devonshire, junglecat, tdc, nuclearzero and their sockpuppets… Pretty strong statement. I am surprised no one has called him on it. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 20:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I placed a warning on his talk page -- depending upon his response you may want to chime in as well. Morton Devonshire 01:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You know what is ironic about it? Look who he lists as a "page vandal" - someone he endorsed in the RfC! JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 01:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Years ago I attended a campaign workshop put on by the National Organization of Women (heh, it was free and I was a broke campaign staffer who wanted to meet chicks). They said: “There are no permanent friends, only permanent interests.” I guess they (the Liberals) really mean it. Morton Devonshire 01:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

HeHe, well I wouldn’t go that far. I left a message as well on his talk page. I hope he will consider his statement and help us to come to a peaceful solution. I don’t think those kind of remarks are helping tensions. I have a feeling this whole situation could get bad. I hope not. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 02:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

History of Soviet espionage in the United States

I do not believe your recent edit of History of Soviet espionage in the United States was proper given the unresolved conflict in the Discussion page. The fact that you have edited that talk page indicates you are aware the dispute was unresolved. Please revert your edit until the unresolved citation dispute is resolved via mediation or by the addition of requested citations. Abe Froman 19:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I did it myself. If you happen to know the citations and page numbers for the unsourced fact tagged passages, please post them. Abe Froman 19:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Striver's Request

Hi Morton. I know this is kind of off-topic and not directly involved to Misplaced Pages, but considering our many contributions to the encyclopedia, I'm sure they can expend us a few bits of data.

I wonder if you are willing to take a pledge?

If you ever find yourself in the situation were you find yourself believing that the USA government actually did or allowed 911 to happen, then you will inform openly to everyone you know about your strong efforts to destroy as many articles as possible that represented that point of view on Misplaced Pages, in contrast to hiding your current and previous actions. Deal?

It should not be any problem for you to make such a pledge, since you believe that you will never find yourself in such situation, right? In fact, don't even answer me, just make up your mind about the pledge, and make it a firm pledge, if you choose to do so.

Peace. --Striver 01:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Striver, you are an earnest guy who seems genuinely concerned about these issues, and I respect that. Let me say with all seriousness that if the leadership of my country were implicated in the 9/11 attacks, that I would not waste my time writing about it on Misplaced Pages. I would go to the streets, and take direct action to overthrow my government. And I don't mean 'direct action' in the way the Anarchists mean it. I wouldn't be alone. We are a People who threw-off the Tyrant, and push come to shove, would do it again. We have lots of faults, we Americans, but tolerance for getting shoved around by the elites is not one of them. Long live the Republic! And Happy Thanksgiving to you in The Netherlands(?). Peace to you, my Brother. Morton Devonshire 02:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

This is almost the exact same thing I have mentioned to Striver as well...and I repeat it...had the U.S. Government been responsible for 9/11, we would be in the midsts of a revolution.--MONGO 17:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

I have opened a case of arbitration at Requests for arbitration:Seabhcan--MONGO 07:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Name Calling

What are you talking about? Who did I call a clown? I used the word, but I didn't call anyone a clown. You're all starting to take everything said as if it's a p ersonal attack. I would suggest a short break from Misplaced Pages when the feelings start to overcome you. --Cplot 20:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I provided the diff. You appear to be new at this, so I will direct you to WP:POINT and no personal attacks for a copy of our policies. We have a progressive disciplinary procedure, which starts with asking people to stop disruptive behavior. You'll get along much better, and last longer without getting banned, if you choose to keep your attacks in check. Attacking other editors does not help you get your favored version of an article, but paying attention to our policies with respect to the ones I've mentioned, and reliable sources, no original research and WP:Verify, will help your edits to stick. Peace. Morton devonshire 21:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)