Talk:Scottish people - Misplaced Pages

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Scottish people was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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December 22, 2007	Good article nominee	Not listed

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how about you discuss instead of reverting

@Mutt Lunker: Is this article intended to be about the Scottish planters in Northern Ireland? Or people who have a Scottish ancestor at whatever remove? Or what exactly? There does seem to have been some use of the term "Scotch" in Ontario, which I find astonishing, since I theoretically should have encountered it there in that case, due to family. But ok, Galbraith is a pretty authoritative source, but he apparently came from right up the road from Dutton, and therefore should not be all that culturally different than the people I know. I am not certain whether this was an instance of an out-group embracing the name they are called. This is an open question in my mind. Apart from that, I don't see the term being used outside Northern Ireland, and I can assure you that the term is extremely disliked in Scotland. Your sources don't use the term, at least not in their titles. If you have some sort of source for the widespread use of Scotch then please bring it. I'll take another look at your sources but they are mostly kinda pitiful in this article.... Please substantiate your use of the term "Scotch", which is what I am objecting to. Elinruby (talk) 08:50, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank goodness Misplaced Pages articles aren't written based on "what you know" or what you "theoretically should have encountered". The fact is while "Scotch" is currently out of favor in Scotland itself, it historically was the adjective of choice and still is quite common outside of Scotland. For starters, see the references at Scotch-Irish Americans (specifically the "Terminology" subsection) and Scotch (adjective) (not the best article, but may have some relevant sources). As for the scope of this particular article, I believe it is fairly well-defined in the lede.--William Thweatt 09:57, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Couldn't have put it better myself. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:37, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

That bit about "I would have expected to encounter it" was a side comment. I actually *added* the bit about Galbraith, which had been in a refn, since it appears to be notable, even though I personally find it surprising. What I said about the title is speculation (we are on the talk page not the article), but is currently my opinion. But I haven't researched the matter to find a source for it so I am just mentioning the book right now and leaving it at that. So ok, apart from that, if this is about all Scottish people, which the lede seems to say, (I guess that is what your snide comment is supposed to mean) then there is significant Disney-fication to be dealt with. But let's start by fixing the stunning number of dead links in the article. Also, a lot of the more sweeping generalizations are unsourced or not supported by the purported references. Article does not cover its topic, imho, and I still do not see a reference for the use of Scotch. I don't care what the wikipedia page says -- it is not a reference. Elinruby (talk) 14:17, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Could you please use less generic edit summaries. With the high volume of edits you are making, it would seem you could afford to be a bit more specific, to allow other editors to follow what you are actually doing. For example, the addition of a single, undated "citation needed" template isn't really covered by "Adding/improving reference(s)" . Drchriswilliams (talk) 16:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

well it is *asking* for an improvement , but alright, if it's a problem I will try to accommodate. I did do exactly this just now, but I hadn't seen this request yet. Normally I would simply make the change but the changes keep getting reverted with little explanation. Sorry for any annoyance. Elinruby (talk) 09:37, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

In fact I think I will go back over to West Africa for a bit; ping me if there's a question about something I did. Maybe look that Galbraith book up -- it doesn't seem to be available online. See you in a while Elinruby (talk) 09:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason Scotch is considered pejorative by modern Scots? I've asked and looked around but can't seem to find what exactly they find offensive about the term.

Doric

Is it not that Doric is another dialect of Scots which is spoken in North East region? Starting sentence of Scots subsection is a bit misleading... Mickysweetlips (talk) 14:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Often but far from always even these days and there wasn't really any such distinction in the past. See Doric_dialect_(Scotland)#Nomenclature and the intro of Lallans. Anecdotal I know but a friend from near Banff refers to what I speak as Doric as much as what she speaks, despite clear distinctions much of the time. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:27, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Scottish soldiers in Poland

The mentioned soldiers fought against Poland, they belonged rather to Sweden.Xx236 (talk) 07:48, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

ref mentions him overseeing building of some ships, not creating navy

Was there any other navy in Poland?Xx236 (talk) 11:34, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

King David - invasion not invitation

The section mentioning King David perpetuates the myth that the Normans were 'invited' into Scotland rather than that they invaded and conquered it. The Wiki pages on King David and his sponsor Henry I tell a very different and far more accurate account. David did not simply 'return from exile' but invaded at the head of a Norman army and rather than 'assume' Kingship took it by force in the face of Scots armed opposition. The ultimate consequence was that a new and now Lowland-based 'Kingdom of Scotland' became in reality Britain's second Anglo-Norman kingdom. Cassandra.

Whether it's by invasion or invitation not really relevant, but should be consistent among articles, but yes absolutely post-Davidian Revolution Scotland undeniably becomes an Anglo-Norman kingdom along more feudal, continental lines. David I occupies a vaguely similar role in the line of Scottish kings as William the Conqueror does in the line of English kings.

Celtic Ethnicity

"The Scottish people (Scots: Scots Fowk; Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich) or Scots, are a nation and Celtic ethnic group"

In what sense are the Scottish people a Celtic ethnic group, exactly? This is a really, really strange opening line. The vast majority of Scots don't speak a Celtic language and haven't for centuries, in some areas by as much as 1500 years. So we're not linguistically or culturally Celtic. As for ethnically Celtic, what exactly is that? What is ethnically Celtic or Germanic or Slavic, exactly when these broad linguistic groups vary internally by genetics so drastically?

The only Celtic Scots would be the ones that speak Gaelic, which is around 1% of them. The remainder would obviously be Germanic. I am aware the Scottish people like to often refer to themselves as Celtic, but if they started commonly referring to themselves as a Slavic ethnic group would they be one? Of course they wouldn't.

Slipped in in this edit. It isn't meaningful. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree it's not really a huge deal, but I think we should stay away from... folk traditions? On an encyclopedia. It's fine to mention in the article for example somewhere that the Scots identify with their Celtic past, as they clearly do, and that they retain aspects and elements of this in their modern culture and identity, Austrians and Galicians do this with their Celtic past too for example, but to make a sort of objective statement like this in the opening line as if it is grounded in any kind of fact or academic classification, I just think it always sets a very bad precedent.

You know what is quite hilarious is that Austria and Galicia were denied acceptance into the Celtic League on the grounds that they were "not Celtic enough", despite Austria containing the original homeland of the Celtic peoples/languages.

Misleading

This entire article is fairly misleading, is it not? The idea that the Scottish were some defined ethnic group with a language who then absorbed others isn't quite the case. The Scottish historically were exclusively Gaels, speakers of the Gaelic tongue and they conquered territories with Norse and English peoples. They managed to Gaelicize the Norse over centuries (and before this the Picts) but the English were never Gaelicized and instead ended up becoming the majority ethnic group in Scotland over centuries.

For most of its recent historical period, about the 1100s onwards, Scotland was bitterly divided around 50/50 between English Lowlanders (who had existed as a powerful minority in southeast Scotland since around the 500s and grown from there) and Irish Highlander people (who ironically followed a very similar path as the English beginning as a powerful minority in western Scotland and spreading out from there), who were only really held together by a Norman/French elite ruling class.

Around the 1400s the English in Scotland just decided to adopt the term Scottish for themselves and their language, basically, thenceforth referring to the Scottish as Irish or Gaelic exclusively. To paint this image of some all embracing Scottish ethnic identity is inaccurate, Medieval Scotland would have been more akin to Belgium or Switzerland with a political state/identity containing 2 distinct ethnic groups, and later a third minority group with the Norse from Shetland and Orkney while they still spoke it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 14:39, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

"The idea" you attribute appears to be your own. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you suggesting Gaels and English within Scotland did see each other as kinsman? As one people and ethnic group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you going to disappear again now you've been rebuked? What's that the 4th discussion you've left hanging open failing to come up with any response or defense for your stance on the issue? Do you want to tell me why James VI of Scotland, who was ethnically English, wished to eradicate Gaelic culture/language in Scotland and even entertained ideas of genocide to achieve it if they were all truly one harmonious ethnic group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I am suggesting that you are reading things into the article that are not there. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:03, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I apologize, Mutt, you are totally right as well the article does actually go into the ethnic divides within historical Scotland quite a deal. I just find the article in general misleading as the idea that all these groups are equally "Scottish" is confusing. They're all geographically Scottish, sure, they were all politically Scottish when Scotland existed as a sovereign state. But to be ethnically Scottish was always the Gaelic ethnolinguistic group, which of course nowadays only accounts for 1% of the population at best.

It goes into a much wider issue with Misplaced Pages when labeling people like Henry Morton Stanley as Welsh, I guess. Or Thomas the Rhymer as Scottish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

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