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From the end of the Kingdom ...

I have done some edits in this section.

Since 63 Judea was under Roman supremacy, but at first it was not province but under the Hasmonean high-priest and his chief-minister Antipater, father to Herod.

I also have problems with the following_

37 BC–AD 100: The Herodian Kingdom of Judaea, an autonomous realm within the Roman Empire. The last Herodian King, Agrippa II (c. 48 - 100), sided with the Romans in the first Jewish Revolt of 66 - 73, which saw the Temple destroyed in AD 70.

Herod's kingdom existed until his death in 4 BC. After that it was split between his sons and reunited only between 41 and 44 under Agrippa I.

From 6 to 41 and from 44 to 66 Judea (in the narrower sense) was under direct Roman rule under a procurator subject to the Roman legate in Syria.

Sometime between 66 and 70 Judea was elevated to the status of province under a legate. This province was renamed Palestine after 135.

How should this be worded?

I also removed the phrase "ultimately giving its name to modernity as Western Society" from the Roman Empire section, since it seemed to me both off-topic and quite strange.

Finally, I also rectified the Ptolemaian-Seleucid period and elaborated on the Crusades period.

Str1977 11:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


Feeding in on that issue is another question: What territory does this article actually cover? Is it only Judea or is it "Palestine" in toto? Please answer someone.

PS. And please take care not to revert substantial edits while fighting out fruitless edit wars. Str1977 21:57, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the answer to how to deal with the early Roman period is contained in the answer as to what territory the article covers. I would basically suggest that this should cover the approximate territory of the Kingdom of Judah - i.e., the later Judaea - and not nearby territories like Idumaea, Samaria, Galilee, Iturea, Batanea, and so forth. Why should an article called "Kingdom of Judah" cover Palestine in toto? john k 15:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Judah and Israel

I had a look into the Kingdom of Israel article which starts with King Saul. Shouldn't the Kingdom of Judah article accordingly start with David? After all: when Saul died, the Judeans made David their king, while another part of the Israelites made Ishbaal king. Only after the latter's death did David unite the two kingdoms in his hand, a union that broke again after king Solomon's death. In modern language this could be described as a personal union of two kingdoms. Anyway, I don't think that starting the Kingdom of Judah with Rehoboam is accurate nor is it correct that Rehoboam ever was king of Israel. Thoughts? Str1977 23:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Let me explain:

  • First, there was the kingdom of Israel (meaning the twelve tribes) under King Saul.
  • Even during his reign, David was secretly annointed, but we can pass over this here.
  • When Saul died, the Kingdom of Israel remained, but in a shattered state. Many parts were occupied by the Philistines. Next to the Jordan, followers of Saul made his son Ishbaal king of Israel - claiming the twelve tribes but ruling only some in fact.
  • At the same time, the tribe of Juda made David their king. IMHO, this is the beginning of the kingdom of Juda.
  • Ishbaal of Israel was killed and his followers submitted to David, who also defeated the Philistines, uniting the whole country under one ruler. But, to anachronistically use modern political terms, this was a "personal union" of the two kingdoms of Israel and Juda.
  • This union prevailed under David and his son Solomon, though it was almost split by the revolt of Sheba (2 Sam 20).
  • After Solomon's death, his son Rehoboam became King of Judah by heritage (2 Kings 11,43) and met with the Israelites at Shechem to be installed as King of Israel (2 Kings 12). But this harsh behaviour caused the Israelites to withdraw and elect their own king.

So we have two kingdoms - Israel starting with Saul, Judah with David - united for some time under David and Solomon, but parting ways after Solomon's death. Str1977 09:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


- I think that it was all one country with one ruler (with some minor revolts that didn't last long) untill after solomons death.

  • I don't understand why these Articles do not point out that it was not the people that elected a King over Israel, but according to the Scriptures Almighty God had a Prophet appoint the King over Israel dividing Israel and Judah, because of Salomon's transgression against Almighty God. The Scriptures even rebuke them that tr1ed to stop Ten Tribes from being given unto Ephraim saying that this also ids of God.

Josepr R Loegering 18:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JosephLoegering (talk • contribs)

Image

The image seems to be squishing the chart. I tried to move it around without success; if anyone knows how to move it to accomodate the chart better...--Rob117 05:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I moved it a couple of paragraphs higher. Please see if this works. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Table

Can someone in the know fix the lines of the table that are different? I tried to but I have no clue how to do it. Str1977 15:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Map may need fixing

The current map, labeled as c.830 BC, seems to be somewhat inaccurate for that period- by 830 BC, Israel's transjordanian territories had been given over to Hazael of Damascus, and Israel was limited to cisjordan. The Assyrian Empire proper did not yet border Damascus, although they did besiege Damascus, unsuccessfully, in 838; Assyria's expansion into the Levant was gradual, with waxing and waning, and was done mostly through vassal treaties- direct annezation did not become the rule until the time of Tiglath-pileser III. By 830, after the Assyrian threat had passed, Damascus under Hazael dominated the entire Levant. Assyrian reach did not come this far south again until the reign of Adad-nirari III, who captured Damascus in 796 (imposing tribute, but not annexing it). If the intention is to show Israel a map of Israel under the Omrides, which the map's territory seems to match, it should be labeled as c.850 BC and Edom should be annexed to Judah.--Rob117 19:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Bible as source?

"According to the Hebrew Bible..." Clearly the Bible is full of myths and propaganda and in itself not a valid source for historical accuracy. Perhaps there should be a separate paragraph for what the Bible says about Judah, similar to how other topics have a paragraph about references in popular culture.--Tchoutoye 12:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In the first place, while most historians recognize that the Deuteronomic History (i.e., the Book of Kings) is full of myths and propaganda, they also have generally felt that it also contains reliable historical information, and many have been fairly confident that they can decipher which parts are reliable history, and which parts are later myth. Furthermore, many of the prophetic books are actually considered to be at least partially written during the life of the Kingdom of Judah. If you think that the presence of myths and propaganda in a source makes it "not a valid source" for historical inquiry, then we would have to exclude just about the entirety of ancient historical writing, and conclude that we know nothing about ancient or medieval history at all. But, of course, you don't actually think that, you just dislike the Bible. The Bible is basically our only major source on the Kingdom of Judah, and most historians have been interested in figuring out what in it can be trusted, and what cannot. Your suggestion is ridiculous, in that I can't imagine what the "Main" part of the article would consist of if you took out material derived from the Bible. john k 12:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
This artical doesn't meet the Misplaced Pages standards for neutrality, verifiability and it does not quote accepted sources. I've added the appropriate tags. Hopefully someone can rewrite the whole artical and present the material in a more appropriate manner. 76.176.114.213 00:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I think there should be separated articles on the history of Judah (and Israel) as described in the Bible, and the history as "described" by archeological evidences. For the latter everyone just read The Bible unearthed by I. Finkelstein & N.A. Silberman. They are - as far as it makes sense - critical towards the history written in the Bible, based on evidences partially discovered by themselves (and to answer John K: yes, there are many clear evidences, that show, that the Bible is not always a valid source for history! It gives a very useful background for archeological research though), but again they point out cleary - and so do I - that the Bible isn't a history book at all!! It is an excellent work of literature (formally), and for two major religions The Source (spiritually) containing some historical information as well. We just have to know what to use it for (and how)!

all you who say the tanakh is not a credible source  : you're whole claim is childish , the jewish tanakh books are the only books from the ancient times which represent a nation which says the complete truth about even the most key people in its history , most respected and most loved people in their history, the tanakh is not "covering up" for no one , and to be honest , its the only ancient source who does so it seems none of you would ever claim such things on The assyrian and egyptian sources which are full of mistakes , blunt lies and glorification of their kings (which usually dont deserve it)

"For the latter everyone just read The Bible unearthed by I. Finkelstein etc "

oh , you mean the same i.finkelstien who decleared that the V||| layer in meggido is from the middle of the 14 century bc (against evidence proving its cannot be erlier then the end of the 14 century bc according to archeaological work using Mycenaean ceramic found in the layer, And a carbon 14 test) just so it would correspond to the historic knowlege reflected through the amarna letters. that finkelstein ? he's a joke , and that book is not founded, and is already contradicted by hundred of articles and books which proved how baseless are the claims of that pathetic book.

oh and btw - judah in the first temple period was usually much bigger then that map shows(try including edom which was most of the time a a subjact of judah) message by hebraic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hebraic (talk • contribs) 20:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hebraic, your argument shows extreme bias. In order to meet Misplaced Pages's quality standards, religious documents cannot be used as primary sources. Textual criticism and archaeology have established a conflicting picture of of historic Israel and Judah than what is offered in the bible, and have salient reasons to back that picture up. This material should be presented. I will flag the article until the issue is resolved. Let us please rework the article to meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines. entropyandvodka (talk — Preceding undated comment added 04:44, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

"God's Worshipper's Kingdom"

The kingdom is named after the tribe Judah, which does not mean 'God's Worshipper', but is a name. The name originally meant 'Thank God'. I dont understand the translation.

No it means Thank Yahweh. "Thank God" would be Eldah! 203.59.11.115 14:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Judah is this the house of David also ? Judahs child (talk) 06:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Timeline

If the Bible is the main source of information, the article needs more explanation of where the dates are derived from. I assume it is something more intelligent than the argument which leads some Christians to believe that the Earth and Universe are 6000 years old, but what is it in each case? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.7.20.133 (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

First off, Biblical dates after the founding of the Israelite monarchy (ca. 1000 B.C.) are far more definite and least partially historically founded than Biblical dating references to periods before the founding of the Israelite monarchy. The Biblical information about the sequence and lengths of individual reigns is certainly used (since information on these matters is simply not available anywhere else), but great efforts are also made to synchronize with external chronologies wherever possible. Three different scholarly schemes are tabulated right in the table on the article page. AnonMoos 08:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no independent non-Biblical confirmation of any Biblical date before the reign of Ahab. So say that dates after the founding of the monarchy before that date is factually incorrect. 203.59.11.115 14:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect Scriptural Citation

The main article references Joshua 18 which far predates post-Solomonic Israel. The first citation for Jerusalem being the capital of Southern Kingdom is most likely in 1 Kings 12 instead. Additionally, 2 Samuel 5:6-9 describes David conquering Jerusalem and making it his capital (Hebron served as his capital during the years he reigned over Judah alone).

Joshua 18:28 (NIV) reads "Zelah, Haeleph, the Jebusite city (that is, Jerusalem), Gibeah and Kiriath—fourteen towns and their villages. This was the inheritance of Benjamin for its clans." While this obviously mentions Jerusalem, it does not lay it out as the capital of the Kingdom of Judah.

The division of the Unified Kingdom occurs in 1 Kings 12, with Rehoboam driving off the Northern Kingdom (Israel) with his harsh demands.

Zamoose 12:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's all a bunch of BS anyways Zamoose, so why be bothered about minutea? The Fifth Column (talk) 08:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

New lead

I've revised the lead quite radically ("edit boldly"). There were two problems with the existing lead: First, it was far too long - a lead has to be a brief guide to the subject, and the old one was far from brief; second, it was not really no more than a summary of the bible, which is not a reliable historical source. I recognise that the new lead has no citations - this is a fault, and perhaps I should supply some. PiCo (talk) 02:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Besides that. The introduction, as it currently stands, places more focus on the subsequent fate of the area rather than the Kingdom itself. Two centuries of archaelogical research and theories on this minor state are not even mentioned. Dimadick (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
You're right. I've cut it back and it now deals with the birth and death of Judah as known from archaeology. It does need to be expanded, because more than this is known. PiCo (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Serious lack of photos and illustrations in the article

please do something about it, thanks.


This article is outdated

A serious deficiency in this entry: The author assumes that the Kingdom of Judah existed no earlier than the 9th century BCE, and the first Judean king he finds in external sources is Hezekiah. This claim is 16 years out of date. The Tel Dan Inscription, written by an Aramean king, Hazael II, mentions Ahaziah, King of Judah and contemporary of Jehoram, King of Israel, both of whom Hazael claims to have defeated and killed in battle - an event that occurred in the mid-9th century BCE. Moreover, he entitles Ahaziah as king of "the House of David", his term for the Kingdom of Judah. This is a typical usage of that period - naming the kingdom for the founder of the ruling dynasty. Similarly, Amos calls Aram Damascus "the House of Hazael", and Assyriaqn inscriptions of the period entitle Israel "bit Humri" - "the House of Omri". What this meaqns is that the ruling dynasty of Judah was founded by King David, and that this occurred at some time before King Ahaziah. Thus, there is no reason why we should not accept the list of Judean kings presented in Kings as historical, and date the founding of the dynasty back to the 10th century BCE (the regnal years of David and Solomon appear to be typological (40 years apiece), which is why I refrain from writing "early 10th century"). Why should anyone invent these kings? To fill in the gap between David and Ahaziah? Unacceptable. The most one can say is that not all words and deeds attributed to them by the Deuteronimistic redactor of Kings are historical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonsaf (talk • contribs) 08:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

We need a reliable source to make the sort of changes you suggest. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Note, however, that the current sources are dated 2007 and 2011 (the last one by the media, and not as important). So it would be nearly impossible to present something discovered 16 years ago that would somehow contradict these reports. An editor would have to somehow demonstrate that these (newer) supposed experts had "overlooked" these "Ahaziah" discoveries made years before. There appears to be a gap here between an initial report made 16 years ago and subsequent analysis by other experts which may have placed the older findings into eclipse. It would be nice to demonstrate otherwise. I hope you are successful. Student7 (talk) 17:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Archeology

It is possible that we will need a "minimalist" vs "maximalist" article or statement in every article on pre-Alexandrian Israel/Judah/Jerusalem. Inserting it in one article alone seems insufficient, IMO. Student7 (talk) 01:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

MAP

Here is a nice map for you guys if you find a place for it.

The Holy Land, or Palestine, showing not only the Ancient Kingdoms of Judah and Israel in which the 12 Tribes have been distinguished, but also their placement in different periods as indicated in the Holy Scriptures. Tobias Conrad Lotter, Geographer. Augsburg, Germany, 1759

Gsonnenf (talk) 11:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I find it hard to read. Too fussy and too colored. Even when magnified, but thanks for looking.
Also, have we ever found archeological evidence of the "ten northern tribes." Student7 (talk) 13:30, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The Thirteen Tribes of Israel

In the order of birth the twelve sons of Jacob are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin, and they become the ancestors of thirteen tribes, because Joseph has two sons, Mannasseh and Ephraim which become two tribes, leaving one Tribe upon the shepherd stone not numbered among the twelve tribes.

Genesis Chapter 35 Verses 22 to 26 Genesis Chapter 48 Verses 5 Genesis Chapter 49 Verse 24

During the days of Moses and shortly thereafter, the tribe of Levi stood upon the shepherd stone, not being numbered among the twelve numbered Tribes, and Levi was given no inheritance in the Promised Land, so that all Levi dwelt among the twelve numbered Tribes, as the only Priesthood in Israel, until the days of Samuel of the Tribe of Ephraim, which was given to Ephraim because the sons of Joseph obtained the birthright.

Number Chapter 1 1 Chronicles Chapter 5 Verses 1-2

The Levitical High Priest Eli, had sinned against Yahweh, and Samuel was raised up as a new High Priest placing the Tribe of Ephraim not numbered among the twelve Tribes, as a new Priesthood upon the shepherd stone unto this day, even though the Levitical Priesthood continues.

1 Samuel Chapters 1 to 3

Saul of the Tribe of Benjamin was anointed as King of Israel, but he sinned against Yahweh, and David of the Tribe of Judah was anointed as King in his place.

1 Samuel Chapter 9 1 Samuel Chapter 16

David’s son Solomon forsook Yahweh because of the influence of evil women, and even failed to mention the name Yahweh in his writings of Ecclesiastics and the Song of Solomon, (the only two scrolls of the twenty four scrolls of the Tanakh besides Ester, that do not contain the name Yahweh,) so in Solomon’s son’s days, the Kingdom was divided.

1 Kings Chapter 11 verse 4

The Tribe of Benjamin was given to the house of David and the Tribe of Judah as the southern Kingdom, the Kingdom of Judah made of just two Tribes, and ten Tribes including Levi were given unto the Tribe of Ephraim as the northern Kingdom Israel, leaving Ephraim not numbered among the twelve Tribes. JosephLoegering (talk) 18:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, in both the map above and this contribution, 12-13 tribes are discussed. Yet the article is about the Kingdom of Judah, the 2-3 southern tribes. How would any of this be used to improve this article? Student7 (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Reorganization of Headings?

I noticed that most of the article is under the heading "Biblical Narrative." However, the "Clash of Empires" and "Destruction and dispersion" subheadings appear to be more based on archaeology and research than on the biblical narrative. For example:

Necho then joined forces with the Assyrian Ashur-uballit II and together they crossed the Euphrates and lay siege to Harran. The combined forces failed to capture the city, and Necho retreated back to northern Syria. The event also marked the disintegration of the Assyrian Empire.

Although no citation is given, this assertion appears to be based on extra-biblical authority. So I'm wondering if these sections really belong under the "Biblical Narrative" umbrella, or if perhaps they can be combined with the "Archaeological Record" section for a complete discussion of scientific/historical inquiry into the actual history of the Kingdom of Judah.--BenEsq (talk) 04:33, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I agree that material that isn't sourced from biblical texts belongs outside the biblical-narrative section. However, IMO to move them there we'll need the extra-biblical sources. --Dailycare (talk) 20:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Confused

It's not 100% clear: is this whole history based entirely on the Biblical record? If so< what about the historians side?.45Colt 08:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

There is the "Archaeological record" section with input from historians. There isn't much such input though, so most of the material is biblical. --Dailycare (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Definitely confused. I've been trying to look up the history of ancient Judea, but all the articles fall into two irreconcilable camps. One says that Judah "emerged" (whatever that means) around 800 BCE and that Hezekiah was the first "known" king. The other talks about a King David who established a dynasty nearly a century earlier and was even the subject of a biography, the "Court History of David". How do historians reconcile this? Do they consider David a minor ruler whose dynasty didn't become important until Hezekiah's time? Is it possible that the archeological record begins with Hezekiah simply because the Assyrian invasion destroyed earlier artifacts? I wish I had more information. 73.137.170.88 (talk) 22:54, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
It's a problem with other articles too, where related articles disagree. The Court History of David doesn't exist and may never have existed. Doug Weller (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
Not sure I should trust that article. See for instance this. Doug Weller (talk) 19:31, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Very Inaccurate and Biased Introduction

To say that Judah begun in the 9th (or even 8th!) century BC is to completely disregard the archaeological evidence. The wars between Asa and Baasha (e.g. Aharoni and Avi-Yonah, MacMillan Bible Atlas) in the early 9th century BC already guarantee that the kingdom existed in the 10th century BC, in my very honest opinion. The Tel Dan and other inscriptions also support the existence of King David, as does the rapid urbanization of Palestine in the late 11th/early 10th centuries BCE (A. Mazar, Archaeology of the Land of the Bible pp.374-5). Cornelius (talk) 01:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

You'll need sources specifically dating an earlier Judah. Doug Weller talk 06:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: Look at Renassault/Cornelius's other contributions over the last four years -- he/she appears to just be posting his/her personal opinions regarding various ancient near-eastern archaeological topics on article talk pages, without attempting to actually improve article content. Even the above, which claims to be about a "biased introduction" (an apparent misunderstanding that the lead is supposed to be something other than a summary of the body, mind you), is bizarre: "the existence of King David" is not touched on one way or the other at any point in this article. The user appears to be posting random opinions about biblical minimalist archaeology in whatever forum they can find. This is a long-term, but very minor, problem, and I am not entirely sure how it should be dealt with, as in all likelihood the account will be inactive until about a year after the above post... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:35, 6 July 2016 (UTC) (edited 00:41, 6 July 2016 (UTC))
Repinging User:Doug Weller in case they click the notification that I mentioned them and only read the initial diff rather than my (important) edit to my own post. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:41, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
@Hijiri88: as the account hasn't been active since March there really isn't anything to do here. I don't see any warnings on their talk page either. You might want to put one there. I agree they seem more interested in using the talk pages as forums for their opinion than editing. Doug Weller talk 10:29, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

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Archaeology

This article needs to clearly differentiate mainstream archaeological methodology from biblical archaeology, the latter of which tries to make the historical record fit religious beliefs. It's confusing when someone is trying to figure out what material evidence exists for the Kingdom of Judah, and finds nothing but the Bible. Jan sewi (talk) 10:27, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

There is a section on actual archaeological finds relating to Judah in the article. If you have good sources, this section could be expanded. --Dailycare (talk) 08:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Correcting date of formation

I'm very confused how we use the sources and dates we use for the formation of Judah.

Firstly, the sources. The first source, used to cite a figure of the 9th century BCE, comes from Israel in Transition: From Late Bronze II to Iron IIa (c. 1250–850 B.C.E.), pages 225 & 226, found here.

The first source does indeed make use of the figure of 9th century BCE, but not for the formation of the independent kingdom. It mentions that there are signs of early activity in the 10th century BCE, with certain cities in Judah showing signs of inhabitance during Iron Age IIA. However, it makes no use of this date to say that Judah was formed during this period, just because activity is observed at a time period doesn't mean the kingdom was formed. That's like saying the Kingdom of Samaria was founded in the 9000s BCE because that's when Jericho showed the first signs of human life.

The second source, Jerusalem in Bible and Archaeology: The First Temple Period, page 149, found here, has the exact same problem.

It presents evidence showing that there was some sort of human activity in the area of Hebron and some others - however, while it certainly mentions Judah, it makes a point that it these signs of human activity seem to be more of a disproof for the existence of an established Kingdom of Judah than a support:

"If Judah would have been a well integrated region in Iron Age I and IIA, one would expect that the line of the ranked sites would have been straight. One does not observe a straight line in either the Iron Age I or IIA."

Finally, the third source, used to support of a date of the 8th century BCE, The Last Labayu: King Saul and the Expansion of the First North Israelite Territorial Entity", page 171, found here.

The source doesn't even mention the 8th century BCE! It barely even mentions Judah! It mentions Solomon, but almost nothing else on the page cited!

Finally, and most glaring, the date for the independence of the northern kingdom is 930 BCE. How would Judah, the independent kingdom of Judah, that became independent when Samaria broke away, be founded during a time centuries before Samaria broke away, i.e. centuries before "the Kingdom of Judah" could actually exist, i.e. when there was no other independent Israeli kingdom??? Even without the sources provided, it makes. No. Sense.

BedrockPerson (talk) 14:34, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

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Birth and death of minimalism

If minimalism ever was a single theory/POV, the mainstream is now minimalist:

Apart from the well-funded (and fundamentalist) “biblical archaeologists,” we are in fact nearly all “minimalists” now.

— Philip Davies, Beyond Labels: What Comes Next?

Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:25, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Highly urbanized 10th century Judah

Highly urbanized? Coogan, Michael (2010). "4. Thou Shalt Not: Forbidden Sexual Relationships in the Bible". God and Sex. What the Bible Really Says (1st ed.). New York, Boston: Twelve. Hachette Book Group. p. 105. ISBN 978-0-446-54525-9. Retrieved 5 May 2011. Jerusalem was no exception, except that it was barely a city—by our standards, just a village. In David's time, its population was only a few thousand, who lived on about a dozen acres, roughly equal to two blocks in Midtown Manhattan. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:40, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

"Biblical Judah" and "Historical Judah"

The article probably needs to be divided into two sections, "Biblical Judah" (the story of the Book of Kings) and "Historical Judah" (the story from archaeology).PiCo (talk) 11:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

They are not entirely contradictory, at least for the 7th and 6th century BCE narratives. Go ahead, however. The article fails to distinguish between fact and fiction, and it could use more sources. Dimadick (talk) 11:30, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant source

One of the sources cited does not seem to be about the Kingdom of Judah at all.:

  • "an important group of archaeologists and biblical scholars formed the view that in reality the kingdom of David and Solomon bore little resemblance to the biblical portrait of an extensive, powerful, united monarchy. This view derives primarily from the fact that no 10th century BCE archaeological finds exist that could corroborate claims of the existence of a magnificent biblical kingdom extending from Be'er Sheva in the south to Dan in the north."

The source is talking about the apparent lackk of historicity for the Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy), which is associated with legendary monarchs David and Solomon. Neither of them is a King of Judah.

Also the quote mentions the findings concerning the 10th century BC. Yet the article's text extrapolates that the situation remained unchanged to the 8th century BC. That is not stated in the cited source. Dimadick (talk) 11:40, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Book of Helaman?

The articles says that probably one of Zedekiah's sons survive. The source for this, is the so called Book of Helaman. The book of Helaman, however, is part of the Book if Mormon, and can't be a source. Even though the Bible is a reliable source used with caution, because is an ancient text, the book of Mormon isn't and must be not used at all. If another source, epigraphical or textual, mentions that probably one of Zedekiah's sons remained alive, it's fine. Now the sentence is unfounded and must be erased. Gustavo Rubén (talk) 09:49, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

LMLK Research website as a source for biblical archaeology - run by a Creationist with a B.Sc.

See WP:RSN#LMLK Research website as a source for biblical archaeology - run by a Creationist with a B.Sc.. @Greyshark09: you'll want to participate I think. Doug Weller talk 14:55, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

This article is both highly inaccurate and highly biased

The author refers to the 'good' and 'bad' kings, according to the Bible. The quotations denote sarcasm and ridicule. That is biased, by nature. This article relies very heavily upon the bible for historical evidence for the siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. It is thus somewhat illogical to then questionable to also show derision of the very source of the article. It would be better, in my opinion, to simply state the facts of the Bible in a more neutral way.

Within the Archeological section, the author makes a broad statement, "The legendary history of David and Solomon in the 10th century BCE tells little about the origins of Judah." This is footnoted as "(5) Katz). For the sake of the following point, I've interpreted "the legendary history of David and Solomon" to mean the biblical account. I believe this was the Wiki article author's meaning. I've read much of katz' book and conclude that the author of this Wiki page misunderstands or misstates Katz' conclusions. Katz says, in his opening paragraphs, ".. the kind of unqualified animosity toward the Jewish "religion of the law" (and toward all other forms of institutionalized religion) that emerged with Wellhausen and many others of his time and that, to some extent, continues even in the present must be renounced, of course. " Wellhauser was one of the first (1883 in his most famous work, "Prolegomena zur Geschichte Israels" scholars to doubt the dating of David's kingdom. According to Misplaced Pages's article on Wellhauser, " It [Wellhausen's "Prolegomena" argues that the Torah (or Pentateuch) had its origins in a redaction of four originally-independent texts dating from several centuries after the time of Moses, their traditional author." Thus, Katz' entire book is written in refutation of this theory and can hardly be used as a footnote to support a later Davidic kingdom. Katz' book has an entire third of the book dedicated to the use of the Bible's exhaustive details concerning the 'origins of Judah'. Thus, the conclusion, along with the fallacious use of footnoted documentation, stating, "The legendary history of David and Solomon in the 10th century BCE tells little about the origins of Judah" must be removed- or rewritten to reflect the footnoted authors accurately.

This Wiki author also states, "There is no archaeological evidence of an extensive, powerful Kingdom of Judah before the late 8th century BCE; Nimrud Tablet K.3751, dated c. 733 BCE, is the earliest known record of the name Judah (written in Assyrian cuneiform as Yaudaya or KUR.ia-ú-da-a-a). Footnote (10) is a source that speaks only of the first written (Cuneiform) mention of the kingdom. Of course, logically, many archeological events took place and existed before they were written about. The advent of written knowledge does not necessitate the advent of all that has ever existed. Hence, the debatable fact that the Davidic kingdom was not mentioned before the written evidence does not necessitate that the Davidic 10th century kingdom didn't exist beforehand. The footnote implies a scholarly source for this incredible conclusion and should be removed. Either that or the conclusion needs to be removed/rewritten.

The second part of his statement, "Prior to this the kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity which was limited to Jerusalem and its immediate surroundings. is footnoted as "Shtull-Trauring, Asaf (6 May 2011). "The keys to the Kingdom". Haaretz."). The footnote implies that the source document supports the Wiki author's statements but it does not. Indeed, the quote used in the footnote is highly misrepresentative of the source article's intent. The Haartz article was simply stating the opposing view, which Professor Garfinkel's archeological dig has DISPROVED. The following paragraph, from the same Haartz article, immediately follows the isolated quote provided by this Wiki author:

"Against the ruins, which have overlooked the verdant valley below for the past 3,000 years, Garfinkel speaks with a great rush of words. According to him, this site, which he has been excavating for the past four years, constitutes the definitive proof for the existence of a city that was part of the Kingdom of David in the 10th century BCE.....According to Garfinkel, the kingdom that existed here in the 10th century BCE was something between the two versions: not tiny, but also not as large as the biblical account would suggest. It comprised at least three major cities: Jerusalem, Hebron and the settlement he is excavating. Even such a scale, he emphasizes, is larger than the humble village evoked by the minimalist archaeologists. At the same time, other archaeologists are recruiting Khirbet Qeiyafa in support of the claims for a large united kingdom." The article outlines Garfinkel's archeological finds that prove a 10th century Davidic kingdom. Thus, the use of the Haartz article to support the statement, "Prior to this the kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity which was limited to Jerusalem and its immediate surroundings" is entirely inaccurate. The source contradicts this statement. The statement should either be removed from this Wiki article- or the source. It should probably just be rewritten to provide a more accurate, neutral treatment of the archeological facts. Please see the following link: https://www.haaretz.com/1.5008984 to read the source article yourself.

The author of this article also uses (5 Mazar, Amihai. "Archaeology and the Biblical Narrative: The Case of the United Monarchy". ) to imply that a 10th century Jerusalem did not exist. He incorrectly states, "In the 10th and early 9th centuries BCE, the territory of Judah appears to have been sparsely populated, limited to small rural settlements, most of them unfortified. Jerusalem, the kingdom's capital, likely did not emerge as a significant administrative center until the end of the 8th century; before this the archaeological evidence suggests its population was too small to sustain a viable kingdom." I've read Mazar's paper and have concluded that the author of this Wiki article misunderstood Mazar's entire intent as well as the entire body of evidence presented in his scholarly paper. His intent was to prove the existence of King David's kingdom in the 10th century, not to dispute it. Here is just one of Mazar's introductory conclusions: "The date of the transition from Iron I to Iron IIA is important fordefining the material culture of the alleged time of the United Monarchy in the 10th century BCE (based on inner biblical chronology). The results of radiocarbon dates relating to this transition can be interpreted in various ways: while Sharon et. al. insist on dating the transition to ca. 900 BCE, Finkelstein,who since 1996 dated the transition to Shoshenq’s time, now corrected his view (at least in relation to the end of Megiddo VIA) and claims an earlier date in the 10th century BCE for that violent destruction, which marks the end of the Iron Age I at Megiddo. Utilizing the data published by Sharon et al., Bronk Ramsey and myself calculated that the transition must have occurred during the first half of the 10th century BCE, which would fit with Finkelstein’s recent view. This enables us to determine the alleged date of the archaeological evidence related to the United Monarchy to the transition of Iron I/IIA and to the early part of Iron IIA."

Indeed, this Wiki author says, "Amihai Mazar contends that if the Iron I/Iron IIa dating of administrative structures in the City of David are correct, (as he believes) "Jerusalem was a rather small town with a mighty citadel, which could have been a center of a substantial regional polity."" HOWEVER, Mazar goes on to CONTRADICT this conclusion.

Read Mazar's introductory statements on page 30, "Archaeology and the Biblical Narrative:The Case of the United Monarchy" and his "Summary of My Previous Views" on page 31 to understand Mazar's full intent. Thus, the footnote use of Mazar's paper is fallacious and should be rewritten. see https://www.academia.edu/2503754/Archaeology_and_the_Biblical_Narrative_the_Case_of_the_United_Monarchy.2010._0 to read for yourselves.


The author of this Wiki article also wrote, "The oldest part of Jerusalem and its original urban core is the City of David, which does not show evidence of significant Israelite residential activity until the 9th century. " and uses the, "Biblical History and Israel S Past: The Changing Study of the Bible and History" by Megan Bishop Moore, Brad E. Kelle as his footnoted source. Again, his use is fallacious. Ms. Moore is not making a definitive statement concerning the historicity of a thriving Judean society in the 10th century BC. Instead, her book is merely presenting ALL the major archeologists and their conclusions, over time, concerning the historicity of King David's kingdom. She also references the prominent archeologists Faust (2000) and Finkelstein (1996), both of whom have presented scholarly works in favor of the 10th century kingdom of David. Yet, this viewpoint is not presented with this footnote. Therefore, the use of the footnote to promote a single, controversial idea is misleading to the public. Ms. Moore is merely shining a light on all the modern views concerning this very important time in history. Thus, the footnote should either be removed of this article needs revision in order to portray the true state of archeological finds. the following links show a search for Faust and Finkelstein from her book: (https://books.google.com/books?id=Qjkz_8EMoaUC&pg=PA19#v=snippet&q=Faust%20&f=false AND https://books.google.com/books?id=Qjkz_8EMoaUC&pg=PA302#v=onepage&q=Finkelstein&f=false).

This Wiki author fails to provide a source for the following statement: "On account of the apparent lack of settlement activity in the 10th century BCE, Israel Finkelstein argues that Jerusalem in that century was a small country village in the Judean hills, not a national capital, and Ussishkin argues that the city was entirely uninhabited. " However, In 2011, at a Society of Biblical Literature Meeting, Finkelstein revised his dates for Iron Age I to Iron Age II. This was reported by the ASSOCIATES FOR BIBLICAL RESEARCH: https://biblearchaeology.org/research/contemporary-issues/3768-israel-finkelstein-revises-his-dating-is-the-indefatigable-minimalist-slipping?highlight=WyJmaW5rZWxzdGVpbiIsImZpbmtlbHN0ZWluJ3MiXQ== . This recent re-dating by Finkelstein should be mentioned in this article as it has a direct impact on the 10th century Davidic kingdom, especially as he has been the predominant opposition to such. Here is the excerpt:

'Two afternoon sessions at the Society of Biblical Literature Meeting were devoted to Archaeology and Text, and in particular to the dating problems associated with the transition from Iron Age I to Iron Age II. In these sessions Ayelet Gilboa spoke on Tel Dor, Amihai Mazar on Tel Rehov, Aren Maeir on Tell es-Safi, Israel Finkelstein on Megiddo, and David Ussishkin on Jezreel.

During his presentation, Israel Finkelstein revised his dating, and stated that he was now dating the transition from Iron Age I to IIA to about 950 BC. This was momentous. Based on their experiences in the Philistine areas and sites such as Lachish, Ussishkin and Finkelstein have been dating the start of Iron Age II to 920-900 BC and they, along with many others, have used this dating to argue that David and Solomon did not exist. Archaeologists working elsewhere in the southern Levant have found the comparatively short period of Iron Age II problematic because it was difficult to compress their Iron Age II levels into it. "

Under the section called, "Partition of United Israelite Monarchy", this article also states, "The major theme of the Hebrew Bible's narrative is the loyalty of Judah, and especially its kings, to Yahweh, which it states is the God of Israel. Accordingly, all the kings of Israel and many of the kings of Judah were "bad", which in terms of Biblical narrative means that they failed to enforce monotheism. Of the "good" kings, Hezekiah (727–698 BCE) is noted for his efforts at stamping out idolatry (in this case, the worship of Baal and Asherah, among other traditional Near Eastern divinities), but his successors, Manasseh of Judah (698–642 BCE) and Amon (642–640 BCE), revived idolatry, drawing down on the kingdom the anger of Yahweh. King Josiah (640–609 BCE) returned to the worship of Yahweh alone, but his efforts were too late and Israel's unfaithfulness caused God to permit the kingdom's destruction by the Neo-Babylonian Empire in the Siege of Jerusalem (587 BCE)." This text is highly prejudicial for several reasons.

The assertion, "The major theme of the Hebrew Bible's narrative is the loyalty of Judah, and especially its kings to Yahweh, which it states is the God of Israel. The use of the term, "Hebrew Bible" is misleading as the Christian Bible also includes the same texts. Perhaps the use of the word, "bible' would be sufficient- or a more accurate statement of facts. No source is given that supports the idea that THE major theme of the Hebrew Bible is the loyalty of Judah. It can be argued that the major theme of the Hebrew Bible is God's love or any number of other narratives. There are many major themes in the Hebrew Bible/ Christian Bible. Perhaps it should say, "A major theme" instead of "The major theme".

It uses quotation marks for 'good' and 'bad' kings of Judah, implying sarcasm and disdain. They should be removed to avoid prejudice. Furthermore, it is inaccurate to say that the biblical God considers anyone, let alone a king, to be 'good'. The Hebrew Bible states, "Ecclesiastes 7:20 New International Version (NIV) 20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.." It also states in Psalm 53: 3 "Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt; 

   there is no one who does good,
   not even one., "

The Christian Bible also includes verses from Mark 10 and Luke 18 which relate Jesus' statement: "“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." which directly reflects these Old Testament verses. As the Bible does not connote the characteristic of 'good' to any human being, it is false to make that claim in this Wiki article.

The article states, "many of the kings of Judah were "bad", which in terms of Biblical narrative means that they failed to enforce monotheism." It also heavily implies that 'stamping out', "the worship of Baal and Asherah, among other traditional Near Eastern divinities" is what makes a biblical king, 'good'. The reference to 'other traditional Near Eastern divinities" is highly prejudicial. It implies that the worship of the biblical God is about 'stamping out' modern people of other faiths. Today's major faith beliefs were not the same as the ancient religions. The Hebrew Bible specifically mentions child sacrifice, massive sexual orgies, senseless drunkenness on the streets, rape, incest and other practices attributed to the ancient religions. None of these are included in today's major faith beliefs. The biblical God takes great exceptions of these practices. Furthermore, the statement 'stamping out ' other 'Near Eastern religions' implies that God expected the Israelites to go out of their kingdom to kill other of different faiths. Not true. The God of the Bible insisted on only the Israelites, his People, to worship him. He either condemned or praised various kings based on their ability to confront idolatry in Israel. This did not include the murder of these adherents. It did include the destruction of their temples in Israel, however. God also took issue with the fact that many (most) of the ancient Israeli kings, and/or their wives, practiced idolatry themselves. God expected obedience from his own people because they believed in his existence and understood all that he had done for them. He didn't expect worship from those who literally did not believe in him- or know him. He detested those who knew who he was and still worshipped the idols they had created instead. There is a heavy implication in the Bible that the reason these kings and their people wanted these idolatrous gods was specifically to practice the sex, drunkenness, lack of morality, etc inherent in them. There is no mention of God killing the Israelites because they didn't know who he was. Nor did the biblical God call on Israel to murder adherents to any other faith for that reason alone. Thus, these statements must be removed from this Wiki article.

It states, "King Josiah (640–609 BCE) returned to the worship of Yahweh alone, but his efforts were too late and Israel's unfaithfulness caused God to permit the kingdom's destruction by the Neo-Babylonian Empire in the Siege of Jerusalem", implying that God wasn't satisfied with Josiah's efforts and cruelly 'permitted' the destruction of the kingdom via the Babylonians. Again, this portion of the article is unsourced. The Bible states that God was in fact pleased with King Josiah and delayed Israel's punishment until Josiah died:

" Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Boscath.2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left." 2 Kings 22 It also says, "16 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and aroused my anger by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people—that they would become a curse and be laid waste—and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you, declares the Lord. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your ancestors, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’

This shows that God approved of King Josiah and didn't bring his anger against Israel until after Josiah's death. The implication that Josiah's efforts 'were too late' and that this was the reason for the destruction of Israel is not biblically accurate. These verses show that it is an accumulation of hundreds of years of violent, immoral idolatry that caused God to lose patience. He had already decided on the destruction of Israel as a punishment for their idolatry (which included prostitution, rape, child murder, drunken senselessness and massive orgies, most of which would be against the law today) before Josiah's birth. That being said, the Bible clearly attributes God's goodness and mercy with the way he honored Josiah's loyalty. It caused him to wait for Josiah's sake.

The article states, "However it is now fairly well established among academic scholars that the Biblical narrative is not an accurate reflection of religious views in either Judah or particularly Israel during this period." This is a gross misstatement of the source material, "The Triumph of Elohim" by Diana Edelman, specifically the short essay, "The Appearance of Pantheon in Judea" Lowell Handy.

Mr. Handy writes, "It is fairly well established by now that the narrative of the book of Kings cannot be taken as an accurate reflection of the religious world of the nations of Judah and Israel." This has a footnote which reads:

"The historicity of certain sections of the narrative has been questioned for a long time within scholarly circles, even though the majority of the text is accepted to be historically trustworthy; this is particularly true of aspects of the depiction of the northern kingdom, Israel."

This points to several errors in the Wiki article: first, that the source questions the entire Bible's account of religious views in Judea and Israel. It doesn't. It only questions 'certain sections' of the book of Kings. That is very specific. Second, the source article does not make a statement about religious statements 'particularly' about Israel.

While the book is a complex tome on the topic, the Ms. Edelman asserts clearly that the book is not representative of mainstream scholars. She writes on page 15, "The process leading to the emergence of monotheistic belief systems in the ancient Near East and the time frame in which this development took place continue to be topics of debate and concern. The present volume is dedicated to a fresh look at both issues by a group of scholars who do not espouse standard views and answers."

Thus, the wiki author's assertion that, "it is now fairly well established among academic scholars that the Biblical narrative is not an accurate reflection of religious views in either Judah or particularly Israel during this period" with Ms. Edelman as the source material is incogent.

I am not finished with my critique but I believe I have presented enough information to question the entire quality of this article. I believe it must be re-written by someone who actually reads the source material and without a religious bias. Archeological data does support the 10th century Davidic narrative. And there are other archeological studies which doubt it. Both sides must be presented. The Bible must be sourced in order to make general conclusions as to its meaning and intent. It can't just be the author's opinion about the Bible. I hope this has been a helpful review of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:907F:C6D0:B09D:3193:E1BF:8F0B (talk) 19:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

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