Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sm1969 (talk | contribs) at 20:10, 4 December 2006 (→Non-Neutral POV). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Please start new discussion topics at the bottom of the talk page per Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines. Thanks!

Previous discussions have been archived:

• Archive 1 (Jan 2004-16 Nov 2005)
• Archive 2 (17 Nov 2005-16 Aug 2006)
• Archive 3 (Aug 2006-Oct 2006)
• Archive 4 (Sep 2006-Oct 2006)

Landmark Education vs Landmark Forum

I noticed that when you search on Landmark Forum you get directed to Landmark Education. Should they be two seperate articals. eg Some reports speak directly about the Landmark Forum and not Landmark Education or thier other courses; Do we know if all Landmark's courses are LGAT specific, etc. Also as the Forum appears to have changed over time it would give some room to talk about that (eg 4day to 3day)

• Opps forgot to sign yet again Mark1800 12:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

How do we tidy up the reference section

I'v noticed in my reading of the references in this document that the same reference materials are reference time and time again. I believe we could cut the reference section in half if we used the same number to reference the same artical.

• eg The est of Friends, Metroactive Features, July 15, 1998 issue of Metro, Metro Publishing Inc. is refered to 4 times.

Anyone know how to do that? Mark1800 08:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Director listing

Why do you want all this redundant information in the article? We already have a listing of all the directors in the box above and to the right. You bring up the examples of Google and GE, the latter, by market cap, frequently being the most valuable company on the planet; even those articles don't list all the previous directors or all the VP's. If you go to the Google page, you will see a list of 25+ VP-level people, and yet you insist on duplicating this information for LE. Why?

RE Directors

1. Why are we using references that are 4 - 6 years old. Some of these guys might have died in that time... We should be using the listing from the current company filing as required by US Law. I'm sure these guys will be a Delaware listed company. Everybody who is anybody is listed there. If they are not, then my opinion of them will go down. LOL (Delaware good for doing all the things that they seem to be accussed of, tax reduction, hiding stuff, etc) Delaware companies must present some info and that includes a list of current directors (in fact I think all states must report that as part of the minimum reporting info).
2. Why are we listing former Directors. If we are going to do that then in just the few documents I've read so far we are missing about 6 people. sigh. It's seems silly to do so. The info box will soon need it's own page...

• Mark1800 04:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Minutes of Boards meetings seem to be a very accurate source for members of the Board of Directors. However, once we get a proper cited source that is more current, that would be acceptable.
  • Not all former Directors have been listed, however, as David Ure is both a former Director and a current Landmark Forum Leader, it stands to reason that he plays a key role in the organization's strategic decision making methodologies. Yours, Smeelgova 04:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC).

• Actually it does not. Normally if you become a Director, you stay there for as long as possible. Directors, normally only become former directors if they make a big mistake, or for personal reasons. In both cases, they usually are minoritised and held as no longer having inflence. I can think of no examples in Business were a former director has been seen as a playing key role in the organization's strategic decision making methodologies. Even, for example, Bill Gates is seen as having less and less power as he withdraws from the company.

Intro & religious implications

I think the article is a lot better than it has been. However, I thought it still had problems, particularly in the opening paragraphs; much of it was just awkwardly constructed. I've removed the reference to what Landmark's general consul said about the Time Magazine article for three reasons: first, it's not introductory material; second, it didn't link to the actual article; and third, it was rather dubious. Although the Time Magazine article doesn't mention the word cult, it does quote someone who states that the Forum turned her husband into a "robot"--hardly any better. Instead, I've included the actual reference to the Time Magazine article (was it really missing before!?). Also, the opening implied that Landmark has won all its defamation suits, which isn't true. I think the opening is more balanced now, and I think it actually reads like an introduction. Recently, it has contained both pro- and anti-Landmark statements which are much too specific to be in the introduction.

I've also modified the "Religious implications" section, as it was pointed out quite some time ago that volleys of links to the Landmark website are undesirable. I've replaced this with a link to the Landmark page on clergy's views.

Perhaps the most contentious change I made is from "many clergy" to "some clergy", and changed the wording from "have found no conflict with their faith" to "have made statements that they find no conflict". Speculating on the mental state of clergy is, I believe, more perilous than saying something about what they have actually done; while it is probably true that "many" clergy have found no conflict, I think the term "some" better reflects the number who have made statements on the matter.

The first half of this section desparately needs references with actual links, rather than suggestions to where one might go. As it currently stands, with the only linked references stating that it is a non-issue, it is hardly worthy of a section. Ckerr 12:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I've reinstated the changes to the "Religious Implications" section, as User:Sm1969 seems to have reverted them without discussing this on the talk page. The changes to the intro are fine. But please, Sm1969, if you are going to do a simple revert, it's probably best to discuss it here before making the changes. Also, perhaps you missed it, but this topic came up before, and the majority view was that there is no point having seven links that point straight to the Landmark website. The link I provided contains links to five of the seven articles, and includes one other (Rev. Shearer) that is omitted in the current article. This is sufficient. Ckerr 08:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, we should avoid having way too many links that forward to Landmark's corporate website, or if they do, this should be mentioned. Yours, Smeelgova 09:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC).

I'm not sure what the issue is with the links to LE's web site. Can we include statements of the clergy? Some of them hold very high positions, such as Father Banaga, President of Adamson University, with over 20,000 students in Manila? By the way, the "religious implications" always comes up under the context of the "cult" allegation and is part of LE's refutation to the "cult allegation" (aside from the legal tests). Sm1969 03:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The article as it stands now is fine, I think. There's no problem including statements by the clergy; the problem is including things directly from the Landmark website, as regardless of who they quote, it's still a single source. If they are quoting notable people making notable statements, then these should be possible to find in other sources, as you have for Basil Pennington. Ckerr 09:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your edit stating that ilovepossibility.info is created by Landmark Forum graduates: this is true, but I think it's unnecessary. The paragraph starts off by saying "Many clergy have attended the forum...", so it's implicit that they're forum graduates. Also, the way you've stated it has the effect of reducing some of the site's credibility. This might not unjustified, but I wouldn't be surprised if other users like Mark1800 and Sm1969 took issue with this. Personally, I would be happy with your comment about ilovepossibility.info to either stay or go. Ckerr 14:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you make some valid points. Hopefully editors of opposing POV will come here first and share their reasoning with us and enlighten us, before making changes with no discussion. Yours, Smeelgova 19:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC).

Here is a statement from The Tablet, A Weekly Catholic Magazine: which states:

Several Catholic priests and religious sisters have endorsed Landmark. The Trappist monk Basil Pennington has praised the Forum for bringing about a "full human enlivenment" which make people "more lively" in the practice of whatever faith they have.

You can also get this at the web site of the Tablet, but it requires free registration there. Sm1969 03:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reference at The Tablet (requires free registration) Sm1969 03:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Summary of course content

The article as it currently stands does not explain the content of Landmark's courses. Readers who have not actually participated in Landmark need at least a paragraph attempting to summarize what it is that they are teaching that has been so controversial. DaveApter requested this back in August, and I'm reiterating it now because I agree and I'm archiving that comment. The proportion of information about the company itself vs. the controversies surrounding it has gotten a bit better, but the article is still over optimal length due to excessively wordy controversy and lawsuit info, so I will see what I can do about that. -- Beland 15:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a reference from the "Journal of Contemporary Philosophy" on Landmark Education, entitled "The Promise of Philosophy and the Landmark Forum" (authored by professors and a Landmark Forum leader) The Promise of Philosophy and The Landmark Forum:

We describe a contemporary experience of Socratic philosophy in-the-making provided by an employee-owned, private educational organization, Landmark Educational Corporation. Its introductory program, called The Landmark Forum, brings philosophy practically into a person’s life.3 It is a three and one-half day course in which trained leaders, in the Socratic tradition, challenge conventional thinking, discursively examine the nature of human nature, and facilitate participants' explorations of their lives. The method, format and style are Socratic (it is good theatre), but the discourse itself reflects a systematic and accessible integration of Eastern and Western philosophies. Our thesis is that the Landmark Forum constitutes a return to the original roots of philosophy, to the examined life, to philosophy in action as Socrates envisioned. Participants in this inquiry examine the human condition in a way that leads them to self- knowledge, to new levels of responsibility, and to reformed and revitalized commitments. In drawing attention to the Landmark Forum one of our purposes is to invite a discussion of its value for higher education. Would it be beneficial if college curricula included more courses like the Landmark Forum?

Sm1969 05:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you for providing that most interesting blockquote. It would be extremely intriguing to think of what would happen if Landmark Education attempted to introduce its coursework into College Systems. Smeelgova 04:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC).

• • All we need to do is stand for the possibility. Sm1969 04:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Abstract Sm1969 05:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a blockquote from the Abstract, hosted at the European Governance institute and at Stanford Law School:

Philosophy promises more than contents of thought. It can cultivate openness to continuously arising new contents of thought. Unconsciously identifying with the contents of thought displaces this openness; the remedy for such unnoticed closed mindedness is self-knowledge. In the Socratic tradition the Landmark Forum - a forty-hour course sponsored by the employee owned Landmark Educational Corporation - provides a model of philosophy as the practical art of uncovering and expanding self-knowledge and thereby generating unforeseen ways of being in everyday life.

Sm1969 05:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• On the other hand, I don't see how this can be a very objective piece, when one of the principal authors is CEO of the Business Development subsidiary, and also Vice-President of Research, Development and Design of Landmark Education, Steven Zaffron. Smeelgova 05:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC).

• • It's fine to attribute it, but also note the two professors on the article. Professor Steve McCarl even has Landmark Education right on his web page. Sm1969 05:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Status in Sweden

I removed the following text:

According to the United States Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor's International Religious Freedom Report 2006, Sweden has labeled Landmark Education as an "active religious group".

A significant number of smaller, internationally active religious groups have also been established in the country. Such groups included the Church of Scientology (approximately 3,000 members), Landmark-Forum, Hare Krishna, Word of Faith, and the Unification Church.

This quote is misleading and the introduction is factually incorrect, by my reading of the referenced source. The State Department was listing active religious groups in the country, and included those in the above list along with Christians and Muslims. The label is apparently assigned by the State Department, not the government of Sweden. -- Beland 15:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Status in Germany

As far as I can tell, the 2006 State Department report on religious freedom in Germany does not substantiate any of the claims the article makes about the status there, so I am removing it as a reference and requesting a corrected citation. -- Beland 16:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph: Cult Allegation

This has several problems. In the United States, as I have cited repeatedly, the term "cult" is a triable question of fact, capable of being proven true or false. The way this paragraph comes across it is borderline libelous. This is also seriously overweighting a minority position. Rick Ross says it is not a cult. Margaret Singer says it is not a cult. Every written article that has made that assertion in the US has retracted. The Netherlands have retracted. In fact, the only entity that makes that allegation is the Austrian government, and there it is by translation, and unclear what in the Austrian government actually said that. Landmark Education never had operations in Austria.

I can see that you will keep heading for trouble Smeelgova until we eventually have an arbitration on this. Sm1969 03:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually no, I will not keep heading for trouble. I actually was NOT the one who put the cult allegation into the intro paragraph in the first place, or if I was, User:Jossi has removed that part of the intro, to make it more succinct, and I agree with him on this particular edit. Detailed info on that sort of stuff is better in the body of the article. Please, if you have further issues that you feel you wish to take to some sort of arbitration, please, bring them up here on the talk page, and I will strive to be reasonable and listen to your arguments and read through your sources/citations. The article is actually looking a lot better, and several other editors have remarked the same. Yours, Smeelgova 04:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC).

As I wrote above--which I'm not sure if you've seen--Art Schreiber's intrepretation of a piece of journalism is not exactly an unbiased source. However, the way it's currently presented in the article is as if it's an unassailable fact. If Time Magazine conducted a thorough investigation into whether or not Landmark was a cult and found it wasn't, then why didn't they say so? To be pedantic, nowhere in the article do they say it's not a cult. Instead, they quote Liz Sumerlin, who claims it turned her fiance into "a robot". So rather than quoting Landmark's view on articles about itself, or some other equally questionable source, why not just cite the article under "External Links" (as was already done) and let readers decide for themselves how to interpret it? Ckerr 09:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, Art Schreiber's interpretation is biased, but that's is LE's POV (one expression) regarding the cult allegation. The best expression of LE's POV is in the court documents, where the term "cult" is defined, and with which LE established that being called a "cult" is, in the United States, not constitutionally protected free speech, but rather an assertion of fact. The court documents then go on to give the general consensus of the tests that you can apply to determine whether a group IS or IS NOT a cult. I think these tests should make it into Misplaced Pages, so that the reader does not come away with an interpretation that is libellous and because the tests are educational; yet, you have to reflect the history of the discourse in the US. Alas, none of this should be in the opening paragraph. I only put this there because I was tired of how the opening had been hijacked by a minority view. The purpose of the encyclopedia, my understanding, is to describe the points of view and how those holding a given point of view (their evidence) and to weight the degree of description by relative percentages of what fraction hold that particular point of view: 1) majority view, 2) minority view, 3) insignificant minority view (excluded from the encyclopedia). My understanding of NPOV is not that you have people supporting their POV with evidence, but in the weighting of the points of view. What's missing from the opening paragraph are factual data regarding the size and scope of the operation, for example. Sm1969 03:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Here are the court opinions regarding "cult": which states on page 6 (Defendants Statements are Misstatements of Fact, Not Opinion):

Landmark believes, and decisions have held, that an allegation that an organization is "cult" or "brainwashes" people or exerts "mind control" over participants is a statement capable of being proven true or false."

Subsequent pages then go on to describe the legal tests. I believe Misplaced Pages operates off of US law, and I also believe that Misplaced Pages has a policy regarding libel. That said, the "cult" allegation is definitely a matter of historical discourse in the US and abroad. In Germany, for example, the "brainwashing" assertion was held not to be a question of fact, but an opinion and protected as free speech, so the laws differ. Landmark has obtained retractions regarding "cult" in the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland. Sm1969

Similar yet closer to NPOV

I was surfing and came across this ]. It's interesting. It looks like a copy from this page and yet it seems close to NPOV. Any thoughts, people? Mark1800 04:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

More here ] Mark1800 04:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

These simply appear to be copy-cat Misplaced Pages sites from older versions of this article. You could do exactly the same thing by browsing the article's history on Misplaced Pages itself. In fact, it is often most enlightening to do this, and go back to the "earliest" page creation, and then step forward to see how the article evolved, and if there is useful information from the past that was cut out, that could go back in at a later point. Yours, Smeelgova 04:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC).

Cult allegations

I still find the passage on Art Schreiber and Time very problematic. You can't "note" something unless it's indisputably true, but this is not at all what he's doing--he's offering his opinion. Nor is it made clear that he is speaking on behalf of Landmark (chairman of what board?). Furthermore, none of this, in my opinion, belongs at all in the "Cult allegations" section--as if Landmark is not going to strenuously deny that they are a cult! Finally, it makes no sense to dismiss the cult allegation before said allegation is even made.

In my opinion, this section has been butchered by well-meaning editors who have made edits that are intrinsically justifiable, but who haven't properly taken into account the overall effect on the article. Of the nine paragraphs in this section, none say anything about "cult allegations"! There are are four paragraphs that explicitly deny Landmark is a cult, one that denies general wrongdoing on Landmark's part, two which do not make any claims either way, and two which claim general wrongdoing on Landmark's part. None mention what the cult allegations are.

I don't think this article should return to the treatise on cults it once was, but nor can this article be honestly called NPOV. There was a lot of referenced material in the cult section which has been removed. The article was never calling Landmark a cult--it was reporting that people had called Landmark a cult. It also reported that Landmark sued people for calling it a cult. This was fair, and this was good reporting. The article is currently neither. Ckerr 15:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If no one responds to these arguments within a day or two, I will restore the referenced content of the "Cult allegations" section that has been removed, as well as remove Art Schreiber's quote, as the article currently makes no mention of what the "Cult allegations" are. Ckerr 03:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, there are several things I can add to it.

1) In the United States, the term "cult" has been found to be a triable question of fact that can be proven true or false, not a statement of opinion. The term is inarguably derogatory. Thus, you have the basis of a defamation lawsuit, as shown in some of the libel cases Landmark Education brought against "Self Magazine" and Margaret Singer, both of whom retracted. The section on "cult allegations" might be entitled "cult allegations retracted" or "cult and the tort of defamation". You also have Misplaced Pages policy regarding libel/defamation.

2) Beyond that, you might include the legal tests for being a "cult" (proven true or false), such as the strict authoritarian leader. These are listed in the court cases.

3) Landmark Education's reponse to this is in numerous places: A) the Art Schreiber quote re "Time Magazine" that is there now, B) the court cases, C) the expert testimony of i) clergy, ii) psychologists and iii) psychiatrists.

4) Most of what was there previously was overweighting a minority opinion (undue weight) in my opinion.

How can we work this out? Sm1969 03:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying we should say Landmark is a cult (which would be, of course, libelous) or isn't a cult. It's not libelous to say that allegations have been made that Landmark is a cult; it's a statement of fact. Whether Landmark is or isn't a cult, and what "cult" actually means, is irrelevant to the article. All I suggest is reporting history and reporting what people have said; that's not libelous.

I've decided to be bold and make the changes I think the article needs. They were, among others:

• Fleshed out "Legal Disputes" a bit and moved it to right before "Criticisms". It is possibly a touch anti-Landmark POV. Incidentally, I also edited that article, as discussed on its talk page.
• I removed sentence about France's treatment of minority religions. It's irrelevant, unless Landmark is a religion, which was the implication of the sentence.
• I removed "and the tort of defamation" for reasons given above.
• I removed Art Schreiber's quote for the reasons given elsewhere. I also removed Raymond Fowler's quote, since the exact same quote is given in the following section (Brainwashing).
• I placed Louise Samway's quote first, to give some idea of what the allegations are.
• I quoted what Amelia Hill actually says about the cult allegations (the quoted paragraph was strangely mum on the matter).
• I took out the definition of brainwashing. It doesn't matter for our purposes whether or not Landmark is brainwashing people. What matters is who says they are and who says they aren't.
• I added a quote from Time Magazine which mentions the brainwashing allegations.
• I took out some material about Dr Fowler's letter. What Landmark does with the letter is irrelevant to this section.
• I am very tempted to take out Raymond Fowler's last quote, simply because he's already been quoted twice before and thus isn't a very independent source, but I'll leave it in because I'm sure others will disagree with me on this point.

I think there are still some issues with the article; notably, it doesn't flow that well. (It's a long way from Featured Article status.) But I think it covers the ground, and hopefully the pro- and anti-Landmark camps will be equally displeased with it. Ckerr 09:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't even see that the Samways quote from a book long since out of print even supports the allegation of LE being a cult. Furthermore, I think the retractions should be mentioned by name: Margaret Singer, Cynthia Kisser, FACTS Magazaine, Self Magazine. It is, in my mind, not sufficient to defer this to the legal section elsewhere. Sm1969 15:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Samways' quote hardly touches on "cult allegations"; perhaps it belongs in the "Brainwashing" section, or perhaps the section headings need to be reworked. With regard to the "retractions", I urge you to consider if perhaps you are advocating a point of view here. I'm curious to know why you say that it's not "sufficient" to discuss the cases on a separate page. Also, why didn't you mention Elle Magazine or the Rick Ross Institute, both of whom seem to have "defamed" Landmark and gotten away with it? I'm not opposed to a brief overview of the legal cases involving Landmark in the main article, as it might give a better idea of what the cult allegations are, but I am concerned that such an overview would be difficult to write objectively. I really think it's better just to point readers to the full source. Ckerr 03:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The cases should be discussed within the context of the "cult" and "brainwashing" and "mind control" allegations for several reasons. 1) They represent both sides of the issue (LE's and those that are using the specific language), 2) there is also the courts opinion and the settlements, which are independently verifiable. "Elle" magazine should be mentioned, but the court dismissed the Elle case because it was an expression of opinion, not words that were subject to concrete meaning, capable of being proven true or false (which is necessary for a libel/defamation claim). We should mention the Rick Ross institute as it shows several things, not the least of which is that on-line defamation law is different. He can hide behind the anonymity under the Communications Decency Act section 230 and could not say, himself, many of the things people are anonymously allowed to say on his web site. For example, Rick Ross himself says that LE is *NOT* a cult, but from all the posts there (anonymous) you would be lead to believe that it is. Alas, an encyclopedia is an attempt to summarize the significant points of view and to represent them in proportion to the number of those who hold those points of view, so simply pointing the reader to the cases is not sufficient. The fact that so many publishers have issued retractions is notable. Sm1969 05:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

As you've probably noticed by now, I took your advice and added the summaries of the court cases. I still think we must be extremely careful to avoid being POV and/or getting bogged down in detail, but I think in principle it works to include the information. Ckerr 14:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Cult Allegations and Retractions

I changed what you (CKerr) wrote again, a little bit. Very few entities have actually called LE a cult. Those that did are: 1) Margaret Singer, 2) Cynthia Kisser/Cult Awareness Network, 3) Self Magazine, 4) Panorama Magazine. All of those have retracted and their retractions are published or referenced in court documents. Elle Magazine and Rick Ross did not call LE a cult. Rick Ross says, specifically, that LE is not a cult. It is accurate to say that any entity that has said outright that LE is a cult has retracted. The French government report has also been repudiated by the French Prime Minister who noted that the list of sects could no longer be relied upon.

Sm1969 20:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, unfortunately I don't agree with the changes you've made. I wasn't too fond of the title before and I'm still not too fond of it. I changed it so no title is needed, since "Cult allegations" is perhaps too suggestive, and "Cult allegations and retractions" is misleading, since only three of the seven cases have resulted in retractions (not sure why you didn't mention FACTS Magazine).

With regard to the sentence you added, my understanding of the cases is that neither Cynthia Kisser nor Margaret Singer explicitly stated that Landmark was a cult; when Landmark sued them, they claimed that they never thought or said it was a cult (reference here). (So, technically, they should not even be in the section on "Cult allegations", which is why I changed the title.) The sentence had been making a very big claim--notably, that every person who has ever called Landmark a cult has (1) been noticed by Landmark, (2) been sued by Landmark, and (3) lost. Anyway, the only thing that I feel disempowers this section of the article is the repetition of information between the paragraph of "Legal disputes" and the first paragraph of "Criticisms and Controversies". Ckerr 11:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Problematic

I agree that some discussion of whther LE is a "Cult" is appropriate, given that the accusation is sometimes levelled.

Clearly it's in the realm of Opinion rather than fact. The challenge lies in identifying who says it is (and what they mean by that), and who says it isn't (and why). The trouble is that there seems to be almost nobody notable who has unambiguously said that it is. I have tried to get a sensible debate going on these issues in previous archived sections of this page but without much success.

I would love to see the issue addressed sensibly within the WP:NPOV policy.

I strongly disagree with CKerr's suggestion as the previous version was strongly pushing a particular POV. DaveApter 10:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually I don't think you do disagree with me. I completely agree that the previous version was strongly POV too. That said, I think it did have some reasonable referenced sources, and if the material were presented in the manner of "X says Landmark is a cult" rather than "Landmark is a cult, as stated by X" then it would be acceptable. The previous version of the page went too far, I thought, but at least it explained what the allegations were--here, the reader is left in the dark. Ckerr 07:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Landmark Education / Sweden

I don't see anything specific about Landmark Education in the references you gave, nor can I even see the site. I speak some Swedish and it came back with "page not found" for the www.regeringen.se reference.

Introduction

I decided to revert DaveApter's change to the final paragraph of the introductory section, because I felt it wasn't quite NPOV, and since the previous version seemed to have implicit support, by virtue of its lasting so long. I'd be happy to change it, but I think we should discuss it here first.

DaveApter's change was this:

Landmark Education and its methods evoke controversy. Supporters and detractors hold strong opinions and express their views passionately. Surveys indicate that over 94% of customers report that The Landmark Forum made a profound and lasting difference in their lives; whereas detractors claim that the courses do not really work, or that they may have adverse consequences, or that the company exploits its customers.

The main problems I have with it are:

• The 94% figure is from Landmark itself, as far as I know. This is not a valid source, especially not as an unreferenced statement of fact in the introduction. (Besides, many of Landmark's critics are not people who have done the course themselves--because, the critics would say, they've been brainwashed--but rather graduates' family and friends, for what they perceive as an undesirable transformation in that person's behavior.)
• Landmark's "detractors" are portrayed as being outright wrong--if 94% of people say that it works, and their complaint is that it doesn't work, then obviously they're just stupid.
• The use of "or...or...or" makes it sound like the detractors are grasping at straws. (Some believe the courses don't work, have adverse consequences, and that the company exploits people.)

Due to the contentiousness of the matter, I think it might be wiser just to leave it, perhaps with some tidying up of the language (every paragraph starts with "Landmark", which is not good writing). But I think it would be hard to say anything more specific than what is already there without ruffling feathers. Ckerr 01:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Response

I think it improves the article to give some kind of summary of what this "controversy" is about. I also think it is useful and informative to have some sort of context as to who holds these "passionately expressed views", what the views are, and why they arrived at them. It would clearly also be relevant to have some kind of estimate of the sizes of the various groups. All this is clearly problematic because of the absense of objective data, and is further complicated by questions which some wish to raise about the partiality of the data that does exist.

But clearly it is relevant whether opinion amongst people who have done the courses is divided fairly evenly or comes down predominantly on one side or the other. We could argue until the cows come home about whether the 94% figure is justified or not, but I can't find any source at all which indicates anything other than that the vast majority of customers are highly satisfied. Apart from the surveys, there is the raw fact that Landmark gets about 6,000 new customers every month, virtually all as a result of personal recommendations.

It might be alright to include something about what the controversy entails in the introduction. That said, I don't think it's necessary--anyone curious can find out in under a second simply by scrolling down. I would strongly oppose, however, any attempt to quantify what fraction of people support or criticize Landmark, since no reputable source has ever looked into this. Without knowing exactly how Landmark phrased their survey, I'm pretty sure I would have ended up in the 94% of "supporters"--yet, as you are well aware, I also have some sharp criticisms of the organization. In my own Forum, as I've mentioned before, probably almost half had some fairly serious criticism of Landmark (mostly Landmark's perceived manipulation regarding additional courses), but most of them would agree that Landmark had made a positive difference to their lives. I don't think you can use Landmark's continued success as an indicator of people's views on it; there are plenty of corporations which the public has extremely negative views on which are nonetheless successful. Ckerr 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for responding constructively to the debate. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the asymmetry between the standards of proof which critics demand for a pro-Landmark proposition and for an anti-Landmark one. I agree that none of this is conclusive, but I would say that - taken as a whole - it is certainly suggestive:

1. At least five studies carried out by reputable research organisations, all reporting a high degree of satisfaction, and specific tangible benefits.
2. A considerable number of personal accounts of specific accomplishments which customers credit Landmark with having empowered them to achieve.
3. A large number of on-the-record evaluations and testimonials from credible individuals.
4. A number of positive appraisals by respected high-quality journalists and commentators.
5. The fact that the majority of customers continue to do further Landmark Courses from time to time.
6. The fact that large number of customers recommend the courses to their friends.

On the other hand we have:

1. A small number of isolated complaints from individuals who did not feel they got value from courses.
2. A similar number of adverse remarks from people who reacted badly to an introductory event.
3. A few acquaintances of Landmark customers who were not impressed with the perceived results.
4. A number of sensationalistic newspaper and magazine articles.
5. A handful of self-appointed "cult experts" who rush out negative commentry or innuendo without taking the trouble to do any serious first-hand observation of what is involved. DaveApter 18:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. To some extent I agree with you, but without trying to sound like a post-sociorelativist, I think there are alternative viewpoints which are equally valid. Of most concern to me are the various unknown selection effects, especially when the data are being reported by Landmark itself. About the standard of proof, perhaps the reason could be that Landmark critics tend to add "accusations" to the article, while Landmark supporters tend to add "facts". Of course, these require extremely different levels of proof; the former needs no proof as to its truth, only evidence that people have thought similarly before. Ckerr 08:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You quite rightly point out that the opinions of those who haven't done the courses are also valid, and I agree. But there is even less data on this. Some acquaintances of Landmark graduates find them pushy, irritating and obsessed; others find them vastly improved in reliability, productivity or empathy. Who's to say what the numbers are on either side? And what does that count for anyway?

I completely agree--which is why we should leave it out entirely. One of the reasons I objected to the long list of clergy supporting Landmark, and similarly object to Landmark's own surveys, is because they present an unbalanced view of things--Landmark has made an effort to find and source statements by clergy in support of it, and no organization has bothered to do the opposite. Hence, if we present a fair sample of the information available, this will represent an unfair sample of reality, because the information available is biased in Landmark's favor. Ckerr 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the long list of clergy is appropriate, particularly given the allegations they are refuting. Most of the credentialed critics of LE have not done the Landmark Forum. At least the clegy have done the Forum and can speak from experience. The reader just needs to know that, particularly for the surveys, LE is citing the surveys. Sm1969 00:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The article states in each case when a critic has not done the Landmark Forum, and I don't think citing a list of clergy makes this any more clear. It's a tenant of Misplaced Pages policy that organizations are not good sources on themselves, and I don't think there is good enough reason in this case to make an exception to that rule. Ckerr 08:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't really follow the logic of your bulleted objections above. I'm not trying to say or imply that the detractors are "just plain wrong", but I do find it really hard to understand what their beef is, and why they get so hysterical. As far as I can see the issues do all fall into one of the categories I enumerated (and yes you are right that some critics hold some combination of these opinions). This is my personal evaluation (and I'd welcome any hard reliable facts to support or oppose):

• Do the courses work? Well there are so many reports of really impressive results, I'm surprised this gets off the ground. Of course it is always open to ask "Did they inflate that?", or "Might they have done that anyway?". It's just a question of gathering the evidence and drawing your own conclusions.

To my knowledge, there haven't been any controlled longitudinal studies on Landmark's success, which would likely be the requirement of proof in a scientific context. I'm not particularly swayed by individual success stories, especially since (in my limited experience) many of the graduates' families find their transformation much less remarkable than the transformed people themselves. There is certainly a thrill and an energy when the Forum finishes--but does it last? I'm not aware of any data on the matter. Ckerr 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that more rigorous and scientific studies would be desirable, but see my comments above regarding my views on the balance of the evidence that does exist. And by "results", I am not referring to the transient emotional high which most participants experience on Sunday evening in the Landmark Forum; I am referring to the specific outcomes: transformed personal relationships, higher earnings, major new career directions, raising huge sums for charities, inspiring a team to get involved in a disaster relief initiative. DaveApter 18:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Do the courses destablilise or damage people? As far as I can see, there's no evidence whatsoever to support this. With nearly a million customers, even 1% would amount to 10,000 damaging case histories. Where are they?

Many of the customers of Landmark have been through some fairly nasty things in their lives, such as child abuse, nasty divorces, etc. These things are all generally agreed to be damaging to people, yet the vast majority of them (including those who enroll in Landmark) lead normal lives. Hence, the only way to tell if Landmark is "damaging" to people would be through a large statistical sample, which, to my knowledge, has not been done. Again, individual reports of psychotic episodes etc. following a Landmark course carry little weight. Ckerr 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much my point - there is actually zero evidence of harm resulting from Landmark courses, yet these scare stories still continue to circulate. For example Rick Ross continues to harp on about the two tragic murder instances, but (apart form being a classic case of post hoc reasoning), this is actually over two whole orders of magnitude less than the number of such cases in a random sample of one million over several years. I don't know whether he's being deliberately dishonest or just statistically incompetent. DaveApter 18:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Are people being drawn in to buying lots of expensive courses? The typical Landmark customer does a couple of seminar series per year - that's a total expenditure of about $200. And a total time investment of 60 hours. Hardly seems excessive to me.

In Australia, the Curriculum for Living costs about $1,800 ($500+$1,100+$200). That's a fairly significant expenditure, and one participant in my Forum went into debt and had to engage in some less-than-forthright activities to pay it off in time. That's pretty disgusting. In general, if people are paying almost $2000 because they're being sucked into a marketing ploy, that's a pretty serious accusation; to my knowledge, it's much more than a typical person would lose in a pyramid scheme, for example. Ckerr 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know many paoeple who have done less than forthright things to purchase cars- does that make Toyota accountable for that perosn's lack of integrity? $1800 is not a lot of money by the standards of weekend long courses. Most people who give close to 100 hours of training (which is what that $1800 represents- the whole curriculum for living: two weekend courses, and two three-month long once a week courses) charge a LOT more than $18 an hour!!!!! Then the recurring cost of ~$200 a year is quite small. Let's not make issues where there are none- there is enough for us to argue about! Alex Jackl

Actually Alex is understating the point: the total is about 220 hours of tuition (45 for the Forum, 30 for the first seminar series, 55 for the Advanced course, and 90 for the Self-expression and Leadership Program, plus 3 hours of personal coaching). So that's about $8 an hour You can hardly get basket-weaving courses for that!

And I don't get that there is any evidence that people do this because they are "sucked into a marketing ploy" - they are the ones who fill in the form and hand over the payment. On four separate occasions, which presumably they wouldn't do if they didn't get value for the previous course? And every course has an opportunity to withdraw and get a refund after the first few hours (twice in the case of the Forum).

And what is the relevance of the comparison with losing money in a pyramid scheme? People register into a Landmark course because they want the training; they buy into a pyramid scheme because they expect a (generally totally unrealistic) financial return on their investment. DaveApter 18:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Are the "assistants" being taken for a ride? A lot of observers are generally puzzled by poeple volunteering for a private profit-making company. But if you ask why they do that, they say because they want to make a contribution to the course participants, and because they get valuable training themselves (e.g. in teamwork, leadership, or reliability). And with less than 1% of graduates involved in the assisting program in any given year, it's not that much of a big deal anyway.

Also, I'm taking out the word "considerable" - this is a subjective value judgement. And the term "commentators", which is just a POV attempt to talk up the credibility of critics. DaveApter 15:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your action but disagree with your reasoning--my objection to it was that it talked about "commentators" expressing their views "passionately", which is certainly not what they are supposed to do! Ckerr 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

In Australia

This is poorly sourced negative material. 1) The book is long since out of print. 2) The author states that she has neither done nor observed the Landmark Forum. 3) The juxtapostion with events in Europe is a non-sequiter. 4) Placing this under the "cult" defamation tort is even more bizarre. Let's redact this poorly sourced negative material. Sm1969 07:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Duly referenced source from a large publisher, Penguin Books. Let's see what others think about this. Smeelgova 07:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

It's also a self-selected quote from a book that is long since out of print, and we see what the author's actual experience is. Sm1969 08:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Also the statement "techniques allied to hypnosis" is probably borderline "factually false and defamatory" and should probably be redacted based on that and the statements by the head of the American Psychological Association who did directly observe the Landmark Forum. Sm1969 08:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I really enjoyed parts of the French video, like Mayor Brard getting into his pyramid scheme and cleaning out the students' wallets. It was a nice hack job. Sm1969 08:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's the best content ever to appear on Misplaced Pages, but I do think it adds something to the article. To answer your points above: 1) Yes, but this doesn't ipso facto invalidate it. 2) This fact should be duly noted in the article, and it is. I don't think this should be the death knell for the section, since the author is only making broad claims about organizations that try to get "quick results". 3) I completely agree; the fact that Dr. Samways is Australian is completely irrelevant to the section. 4) At least in the current revision, it is not under the cult section at all, but rather under "Criticisms and controversies". With regard to your second statement, I think it is neither untrue nor defamatory. Some of the techniques used in my Forum ("Close your eyes...") were quite close, in my view, to hypnosis; nor can I see how comparing something to hypnosis would be defamatory, since it is a widely studied technique with some useful clinical applications. In summary, while I agree that this section could use copyediting, I do not think it can be classed as a "tort", nor need it be "redacted". Ckerr 11:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess proving that something is or is not "allied to hypnosis" is hard to prove one way or another and is thus merely an opinion, based on distant knowledge. The section needs improvement and balance. Separating it to "In Australia" is downright bizarre. Sm1969 12:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Rules of the Landmark Forum

Most of what you just added is dated and trivial and in exagerrated language. Sm1969 11:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It's sourced with three citations and useful information. Please find a more current source. Smeelgova 21:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC).

The material used for this section is sourced with three citations, and the rules come from excerpts of those articles. Please do not remove or change this information with original research, unless you have other sourced citations to back up your information. Smeelgova 21:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC).

Some of it, however, does not meet the criteria of notability, and much of it is still trivial. Sm1969 06:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

If you have more recent sourced references we'd be glad to see them. Smeelgova 06:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC).

I added a reference from the course syllabus. This is, in fact, an area of significant change in the last two years. http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=59&bottom=62

I left in and fixed all of your new references. However, the new heading title is simply too long, "Rules of the Landmark Forum" is concise, and factual. Smeelgova 02:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

It is concise but not factual. Many of them are tips and the intent is for customer value, so that context should be present. Omitting this information looks strange. I request that you re-add it as: Landmark Forum Tips and Agreements. Sm1969 03:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the original version of the list, which implied that anyone who tried to go to the bathroom would get whacked with a broom, was a little far from NPOV. I think it's currently fine, including the heading. (After all, the forum is a "game", and so of course it has "rules". That's what Alain told us, anyway.) While I don't think this section detracts from the article, I don't know if what it adds is justified by its length. Ckerr

Austria

1) The first report on notes LE, but refers to it as an "other group active in the country" (not in the "sect" classification.

2) The second report--hosted at the US state department--says nothing about LE.

3) LE never had operations in Austria.

This is being removed as poorly sourced negative material; at best, it is a misinterpretation; at worst, baseless, and the official sources indicate it is baseless. Sm1969 01:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the source does indeed clearly state this, and please do not summarily remove this again without discussion on the talk page. I have added a blockquote which further shows that this is spelled out within the cited source. Smeelgova 13:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC).

It is spelled out in the cited source; however, the source notes LE as an "other group" in the country. Furthermore the page at the US State department itself says nothing about LE. Admnistrator Beland removed your quote as a mis-interpretation previously. Finally, there is zero evidence LE ever had operations in Austria. Sm1969 03:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I request that you remove Austria. Again, the copy of the same report at the OFFICIAL web site does not even list Landmark Education as being active in the country. Furthermore, the allegation of LE being a cult is factually false and defamatory; however, the first argument is decisive. Sm1969 03:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It is also possible that the US State Department's web site does *NOT* list Landmark Education because Landmark Education wrote to them to correct the factual error. Again, I repeat the request that you either A) substantiate this statement or B) redact it.

Invalid citation

The quotation from the http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-news+article+storyid-16247.html site on the page has clearly been doctored to have a reference to Landmark inserted, as there is no mention of LE in the otherwise identical citation on http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71367.htm.

I have therefore removed it. DaveApter 09:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sweden

Neither of the two references on Sweden's Government say *ANYTHING* about Landmark Education. I will redact this unless you substantiate it. Sm1969 03:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, allow me time to find another source, I believe that another one exists. Smeelgova 03:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

Och ja haer laest Svenska paa Universitatet i Berkeley och bott i tyskland! Sm1969 03:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Educational Context, Peer Review, Notability

Hi Smeelgova,

I notice you don't personally like the Notability criteria (per your user page), but it is a policy of Misplaced Pages. If you are going to mention the lack of peer reviewed studies, you need note that there are probably ZERO other private educational corporations that have peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, we should redact this information outright. Sm1969 03:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Request-1: I request that you A) re-add the line, "As with most private educational corporations, ..." or B) redact the statement outright regarding lack of peer reviewed studies as it is not notable in this context. Sm1969 03:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's both try to be more civil, and NOT USE CAPS SO MUCH IN TALK PAGE CONVERSATION. FROM MY "ALREADY ALWAYS LISTENING PERSPECTIVE", IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE YELLING AT ME. Thanks. Yours, Smeelgova 03:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

I will take a look at the text you mentioned in the article now. Thanks. Smeelgova 03:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

Might I recommend that you take the Landmark Forum since you recognize the Already Always Listening. This will allow you to give up your Already Always Listening, as a choice. Sm1969 03:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Request-2: Also, please add the same contextual information about the training of the course leaders. Sm1969 03:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have compromised and removed the text in question from your first request. As to the second, it seems unusual that course trainers in the company are not required to have any sort of outside credentials whatsoever other than training within the internal programs of the course. This seems to be an exception to the norm of training companies. I've voluntarily abided by your request and removed the text from your first request, so I think we should leave in the second part. Smeelgova 03:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

I think you are mistaken. It is extremely common for commercial training companies not to require educational qualifications. I taught microprocessor design and programming at a London training company for eight years and the only training in presentation I have is that provided by the company during my induction. As far as I am aware none of the other trainers had teaching qualification. The company was highly respected and had over 200 major corporations among its customers. The same applies to almost every other commercial training organisation I can think of. And I can think of none who "produce peer reviewed papers on education".

The only possible reading of your edit on this topic is to foster the impression that Landmark Education is some sort of cowboy outfit that throws any old person in front of the room. Nothing could be further from the truth. The training that Landmark Forum Leaders have to go through, and the evaluations they have to pass, are amongst the most demanding on the planet. DaveApter 11:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If the same faulty reasoning applies to #1, then we should equally apply it to #2. It is not odd--look at the list of companies on the IACET web site of which LE is a member and you will find few if any of them having training outside their in-house methodology. Request: Redact or put in a notification that puts the reader on notice that this is not notable. Sm1969 03:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, browsing through most of the organizations on the list, it looks like most of them probably wouldn't accept any trainers without at least a bachelor's degree. Smeelgova 03:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

Here is a nice article on Forbes and the value of a college degree with such quotes as, "Bill Gates, who dropped out of Harvard to start Microsoft (MSFT), certainly doesn’t fit the stereotype of a low paid college dropout."

Very inspiring. Doesn't change the facts of my statement above. Unfortunately, most of the institutions listed in the website reference you gave above will most likely not hire a person for a training position unless they possess a college degree of some kind. Another example, school teachers won't be able to get a job anywhere without at least a college degree, and usually also a master's degree in education. Thanks. Smeelgova 20:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

Well, can we redact everything from Rick Ross then? He only has a high school degree, was convicted of felony embezzlement, charged with felony kidnapping, and assessed a civil verdict of over $3 million, with zero credentials to speak of?

Your statement is also original research, nor can you conclusively say what percentage of the course leaders do or do not have college degrees. Landmark Education makes no pretense of being a formal school education; rather, it is private educational corporation, and whether this is notable (per the Misplaced Pages policy of notability) is only to be determined by comparing Landmark Educaiton with other private educational methodologies.

Sm1969 01:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Reverts & civility

I've reverted several changes to the "Criticisms and controversies section". The two most significant ones are:

• I removed the "In Australia" heading, since it didn't describe the section it purported to. This was the way the article was before (a well-meaning but misguided editor changed it).
• I reverted the text of the first paragraph of this section to my version of several weeks ago, since the modifications since then were POV in favour of Landmark. (I could easily "explain away" the three court cases which Landmark won, as this editor did to the two they lost.)

There seems to be a perception that making strongly POV edits in some parts of this article balance out the other parts that are strongly POV the other way. No, they don't, they just make it a weak article. I plead with all editors to make each sentence they write as NPOV as they possibly can, regardless of the article's past history and the content of other sections. And for the pro-Landmark editors, please consider: are you sometimes making people wrong with your edits and comments? Ckerr 09:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to remember what you reverted. I believe there were several inaccuracies in the statements and was trying to get it accurate. Again, you would have to read the court cases. 1) In the "Elle Magazine" case, the judge ruled that the article was a matter of opinion (not assertions of fact), and dismissed the libel case. In the Rick Ross case, there was a change in case law after the case was started. Landmark Education has never "lost" a case per se. These are more like a "draw" than winning or losing. Where the issue of "cult" (that particular word) was taken on, Landmark Education has always obtained retractions: Self Magazine, Margaret Singer, Cynthia Kisser/Cult Awareness Network, the case in the Netherlands (Panorama). I don't know of any case where that particular word ("cult") has been allowed to stand. In other words, Landmark Education's record in legal cases is rather good. Sm1969 11:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I never said "lost" in the article; I said "dismissed". The reason for dismissal is irrelevant in this context. Ckerr 13:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me summarize the cases: LE As Plaintiff: 1) Self Magazine published an article and used the word "cult" and other statements Landmark Education regarded as libelous. Self said their article was a matter of opinion; Landmark Education said it was a question of triable fact; the court agreed with Landmark Education. Rather than face trial by jury, Self Magazine retracted.

2) This is also true for the Margaret Singer and Cynthia Kisser cases.

3) The "Elle Magazine" of 1998, the court ruled that the language of the article was a matter of opinion, not an assertion of fact, and Landmark chose not to appeal the initial court judgement.

This was certainly a legal loss, and this part of the article is discussing legal cases. Hence I don't think it would be misleading to call it a loss, although the article currently does not, nor do I think it should. Ckerr 13:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

4) Finally, there is the Rick Ross case, and both sides have differing stories on why Landmark Education withdraw the case; LE says it was a change in Internet case law after the case was filed; Rick Ross says it was to avoid going forward with the case with open discovery (meaning that Rick Ross could publish all of the evidence on his court site).

Either way, the case was dismissed; the article didn't call it a "loss" and didn't give a reason. This was fair. What was not fair, in my opinion, was quoting only Landmark's version of events. Ckerr 13:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

In all those cases, the issues never went to a jury. For example, in the "Elle Magazine" case, the Misplaced Pages language should not reflect that LE "lost" the case, i.e., because the allegations were true. Rather: the article was an expression of opinion, NOT capable of being proven true or false, rather than an assertion of fact.

I think here you're conflating the issues of a legal loss with a conceptual loss. In my view, only if you come from the space of "This article is anti-Landmark" will you read "The case was dismissed" as "Landmark is a cult". That their case was dismissed is a verifiable fact. Everything else is a story! Ckerr 13:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

5) In Europe, there was the libel case that went before the judge, and the Defendants could not name a single definition (per Art Schreiber, and I have not seen the original court documents) of "cult" that was met by Landmark Education, according to the judge.

In summary, CKerr, your attempts to summarize or classify as win/lose are inaccurate. We could state: did they plaintiff get what they wanted or not, but that is not the same thing as win/lose (by jury). I have personally read 250 or so pages of court documents (or whatever, and it is a lot) and am trying my best to be accurate. These documents are all on-line at the Rick Ross web site.

Sm1969 12:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I know you are trying your best to be accurate, as is everyone else here. I agree with you that it's inaccurate to classify them as win/lose, which is why I instead classified them into the categories I did. Anyway, I appreciate the civility you are showing towards me, and I hope you can show it to Smeelgova too. Ckerr 13:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Austria: Conflicting Evidence from US State Department

The Austria quotes have two conflicting statements regarding Landmark Education. 1. The American Patriots web site giving the "Austria 2006 Religous Freedom Report" has "Landmark Education" listed among the other groups. http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-news+article+storyid-16247.html

2. The US State Department gives the exact same report without Landmark Education: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71367.htm

3. Zero persons have asserted that Landmark Educaiton ever had operations in Austria.

4. I will redact this content because it is the same source, and the US State Department web site is the authoritative one. Sm1969 11:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

If you look more closely, the only reason here is because the US gov't site does not include the full report. The other citation does. Smeelgova 20:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

I did look more closely. Not only is your source unofficial, it even has advertising on it. Would you like to A) redact this or B) get the administrators involved again?

Sm1969 01:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it has advertising is irrelevant. It is the quoted report as Released by the US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor. Smeelgova 04:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC).

The vast majority of groups termed "sects" by the Government were small organizations with fewer than 100 members. Among the larger groups was the Church of Scientology, with between 5,000 and 6,000 members, and the Unification Church, with approximately 700 adherents throughout the country. Other groups found in the country included Divine Light Mission, Eckankar, Hare Krishna, the Holosophic community, the Osho movement, Sahaja Yoga, Sai Baba, Sri Chinmoy, Transcendental Meditation, Landmark Education, the Center for Experimental Society Formation, Fiat Lux, Universal Life, and The Family.

Smeelgova 04:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC).

The fact that it has advertising indicates that it is NOT from a US Government web site. It is NOT from the US Department of State. The other URL, the official one from the US Department of State does *NOT* have anything about Landmark Education in it. Sm1969 06:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Take Notice: Articles regarding ongoing enterprises, ArbCom ruling

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger The principles of editing articles about ongoing enterprises are analogous to those which govern Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. As applied to this matter, unsourced or poorly sourced negative material may be removed without discussion, such removal being an exception to the 3 revert rule Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Remove_unsourced_criticism. This extension of policy is based on the proposition that any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material is potentially harmful.

Passed 6 to 0 at 14:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Editor Smeelgova was involved in this arbitration, and Smeelgova is presently adding unsourced or poorly sourced negative information, pertaining to Austria and Sweden. Sm1969 01:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

As User:Jossi stated on User:Sm1969's talk page, this is a separate ruling and does not pertain to this particular article. Smeelgova 04:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC).

There is something curious here. L is missing from the State dept page. Sme's explanation that this is because this isn't the full report doesn't make sense, becuase why would they edit out just one org? OTOH http://www.unhcr.org/home/RSDCOI/450fb0b1a.html has L in. I would suggest that until this is properly resolved, ie the original report is found, this report should only be used with caution William M. Connolley 09:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think, then, that this is poorly sourced information and can not be used for such an allegation for an ongoing enterprise per the page at the top. The US State Department's English language version should be decisive. Also note, that this is a report of the US State Department--we have not seen the original German language report. This edit should remain redacted until decisive evidence is produced that it can be introduced. Sm1969 13:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the State Dept. report which mentions Landmark Education: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm. The confusion may come from how the annual reports are labelled. -Will Beback · † · 20:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The 2005 report does have it. The 2006 report does not have it. Between 2005 and 2006, the US State Department removed it from their official web site. Sm1969 21:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

They did not remove it. The link I posted is on the State Dept. website. By law, the department is required to prepare an annual report. The contents of the report change every year, but an omission from one year to another does not mean that the actual facts have changed. It is verifiably true that the 2005 report says that Austria lists LE among the "sects" in the country. -Will Beback · † · 22:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I am saying that they removed it from the 2006 report. It is in the 2005 report. I think the 2006 report has to be taken as decisive, until better information comes along. The 2006 report does not have it. Both reports are posted at the State Department web site. Landmark Education has never had operations in Austria. How do you know that an "omission from year to year does not mean the facts have changed." Where are you getting that information? Sm1969 22:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

So long as we clearly indicate that the source is a 2005 report then it is verifiable. If you like we can also say that the informaiton was omitted in the 2006 report. -Will Beback · † · 22:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And I have done exactly what User:Will Beback just suggested. Smeelgova 23:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC).

FYI, these reports are "timed". Meaning that a report for 2006 supersedes a report for a previous year. This is the sam as many other reports from the us.gov such as travel advisories. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That's right, but unless we want to erase history it is still true that the report was made 2005. Without some source for it, we can only speculate as to why that aspect of the report changed in 2006. -Will Beback · † · 23:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

We are going to need to find the original Austrian report which is second-sourced by the US State Department. Sm1969 23:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Smeelgova 23:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC).

Please stop removing this information, it is historically accurate and factually cited. Thanks. Smeelgova 21:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

What is factual? The only fact is that it is an opinion of some anonymous Austrian bureaucrat that Landmark Education was an appropriate oganisation to be included in some miscellaneous list, of which we don't even have any idea of the selection criteria. This adds no useful information whatsoever to the article. I will continue to remove it. DaveApter 11:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The key issue here

A selective extract from a bureaucratic document is being used here, out of context, to cast aspersions on Landmark Education. The whole thrust of the original paper was to demonstrate that the Austrian state is not opressive to minority religious movements. To illustrate the point, the official who compiled it grabbed a random list of minority groups and pointed out that the Austrian state does not persecute or opress them. The fact that LE is included in the list does not in any way imply that there was any official evaluation of the merits or characteristics of the organisation, or that it has anything in common with any of the other groups mentioned. Landmark does not even have an office in that country or hold any courses there. This is another example of detractors grabbing any rag-bag items they can dredge up to pin the "cult" label on Landmark. This item is completely irrelevant and I am removing it. DaveApter 17:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it seems that way, I am afraid. The pinning of the "cult" label is so misused and misapplied by detractors in many a article, only because of the negative connotations of the term. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the item is factual, and a fact that the reader will most certainly be interested in. We have been through this and the information is accurately cited from a referenced source. Smeelgova 00:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

What is factual? The only fact is that it is an opinion of some anonymous Austrian bureaucrat that Landmark Education was an appropriate oganisation to be included in some miscellaneous list, of which we don't even have any idea of the selection criteria. This adds no useful information whatsoever to the article. DaveApter 12:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

We must be careful, though, to portray that in its correct context, lest the English language reader come to believe that Landmark Education is a "cult" which has been ruled a "triable question of fact, capable of being proven true or false," and we have the retractions of Margeret Singer, et al, and the Misplaced Pages content policy of libel, and the fact that LE sued for correction in Germany, and obtained that correction. This alone merits our putting in some contextual information around it, lest the English-language reader take away that factually false and defamatory impression. Alas, LE (and this is original research) never had operations in Austria. Sm1969 00:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

All of the contextual information that you have cited is presented in detail in the legal actions page, Landmark Education litigation, and the reader is referred from this article to there. Thanks. Smeelgova 00:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

The reader should be clued in right here about the retractions/refutations and libel policy, not have it deferred under the theory the reader might pursue it to another article section. Sm1969 01:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It is not "deferred", it is in the proper location. The proper location to mention Landmark Education's extremely litigious history would be the page about Landmark Education litigation. As stated above, the information in question is properly sourced, and the article mentions the absence of the info in the 2006 State Dept. report. Thanks. Smeelgova 04:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

I don't think LE's history is that litigious at all. Litigation against LE consists I think of 4 cases in 15 years. Outbound litigation in the US consists of 5 cases in 15 years. Outside the US, I can think of another 4 cases. This is for a company that will soon have had 1,000,000 customers and 16 years in business. The inbound litigation surely is small. The outbound is notable for it being mainly on one topic: defamation. In the litigation, there is always a consistent pattern--people needing to take extreme positions to sell books, get high ratings on TV shows, get customers to deprogram. Then, we have the recent subpoenas that you seem to be obsessed with, but copyright infringement really is a pretty new one for LE. Sm1969 06:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Then, we have the recent subpoenas that you seem to be obsessed with - I have said this many times before and I will say it again: If you wish to attempt to have a cordial relationship on the talk pages, please do not make these generalizations and assumptions into what you perceive to be my POV or motivations. Thanks. Smeelgova 10:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

Notices of WP:AN/3RR

Landmark Education

• I am filling a WP:AN/3RR about this page Landmark Education. If you have any further questions or statements please DO NOT leave them on my talk page. Please place them here on the Talk:Landmark Education page. This is only because you evidently cannot be civil and comport yourself in dealings with me, so it is best we keep communications to article talk pages. Thanks. Smeelgova 04:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC).
• Regarding User:Sm1969's pattern of edit-warring and violations of 3RR, with an "ends-justify-the-means" rationale. Smeelgova 05:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC).
• Also a very interesting note in the edit history "this is also an exception to 3RR per the arbitration Smeelgova was involved in", makes one think User:Sm1969 is actually aware of his actions here, and at the same time attempting to rationalize away his 3RR violations. Smeelgova 05:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC).

• • No, what ArbCom is saying is that the principal of REMOVING totally UNSOURCED negative information is higher than 3RR. Your particular reversions of my reversions are totally unsourced and directly DAMAGE Landmark Education and DAMAGE Misplaced Pages. Please read the actual ArbCom ruling. The words "Landmark Forum" or "Landmark Education" do not even appear in your references; further, the one in which they do, is an obvious FAKE version of the US State Department report. Sm1969 08:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I would really appreciate it if neither of you used bold or caps. It's hideous and contributes nothing. If you want people to listen, then whisper. Ckerr 13:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The 3RR was dismissed. Sm1969 12:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I would really appreciate it if neither of you used bold or caps. It's hideous and contributes to nothing. If you want people to listen, then whisper. - I agree with User:Ckerr, the USE OF CAPS in this manner is inappropriate and not constructive in any fashion. Please stop. Thanks. Smeelgova 01:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

Religious Freedom Report, Austria 2005 / 2006

YES Landmark Education: 2005: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm NO Landmark Education : 2006: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71367.htm

They removed it from one year to the next. The US State Department is doing the classification, not the Austrian government. At least no one has produced a report from the Austrian government of what their actual language is. It may be too much bureaucratic work for the State Department to remove 2005, 2004, etc., and prior versions, so they took it out of only the current year. The US State Department's official web site has to be taken as decisive, and the copies that Smeelgova is asserting are trumped by the official one.

Sm1969 22:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see User:Will Beback's comment above. Thanks. Smeelgova 23:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC).

Do not merge section

Please see Talk:Landmark Education jargon. Thanks. Smeelgova 23:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC).

Where in Fast Company Magazine from March 2006?

Where is the quote from Dan Gayman regarding the statement allegedly made in March 2006?

I will redact this negative, poorly sourced material in 24 hours unless substantiated; further, when substantiated, it must be notable. Sm1969 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Just what about the referenced citation do you consider to by poorly sourced? Smeelgova 00:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

What page? Their magazine is on-line. Put in the URL, give the page, and then we can discuss notability. Sm1969 01:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, I will re-add after the citation. Please be patient and give time for people to research this. Thanks. Smeelgova 08:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC).

Critiscm and controversies

This section was extremely weighted and didn't follow Misplaced Pages Standards for being NPOV. In an attempt to reduce this section and represent a more balanced view, I have begun to make the changes listed.Nsamuel 01:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we agree that Misplaced Pages is controversial, but it just means that we need to be careful. Is there something specific on the web pages that you don't think the people actually said? Furthermore, some of the sources are only available from Landmark Education, like the customer participation statistics, which "Time Magazine" also accepted. If there were something directly conflicting, I think people would have bring it out. Let's look at the stuff on a case-by-case basis--that shall be our particular care.

I have reduced the article to 2 sizeable criticisms and 2 brief accolades. This should absolutely allow for both views to be heard as well as reduce the size of the article. While this could be a section that contained an exhaustive list of both the controversies as well as praises, it would seem that representing both viewpoints with two issues accomplishes what this section set out to do. Any more on either end seems to be overkill. Nsamuel 22:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not acceptable. The prior version was heavily sourced with relevant information. I have restored it and will continue to work on getting more citations, especially as new information on these developing topics comes to the fore. Smeelgova 08:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC).

Using a Corporate Website as "Source"

There are currently at least twenty-three citations which lead to the Landmark Education Corporate Website at this point. This is way too many citations for an article that claims to be neutral and encyclopedic. Not only are there too many, most of them are messy and not cited properly. This all needs to be cleaned up and/or removed. Yours, Smeelgova 03:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

We will work on them over time. I don't think you dispute that the people said what they said on the Landmark Education web site, do you? Sm1969 04:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think it is a little odd that in an article about the company itself, the company's website is used as a source reference this many times. Smeelgova 04:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

From Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Company_and_organization_websites:

Company and organization websites

Caution should be used when using company or organization websites as sources. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias. The American Association of Widget Manufacturers is interested in promoting widgets, so be careful not to rely on it exclusively if other reliable sources are available, in order to maintain a neutral point of view. Exercise particular care when using such a website as a source if the company or organization is a controversial one.

Misplaced Pages seems pretty clear on this. Especially the part about: Exercise particular care when using such a website as a source if the company or organization is a controversial one. Smeelgova 04:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

We just need to be careful and look at things on a case-by-case basis. Many of the citations are also found elsewhere in court documents. Sm1969 04:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No, we should be careful not to use a Corporate Website as a source, particularly with regard to a controversial company, on that company's article page. If other sources can be found as you say, they should be used instead. If not, these references are inappropriate, certainly inappropriate to be used so many times. Smeelgova 04:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

Are you honestly disputing that people said what they said? Also, where Landmark Education is the only possible source of the information, they should be cited and that should *not* count towards a "magic number of links." Can we agree on that? Sm1969 04:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It just comes down to whether or not Landmark is a reliable source on itself; Misplaced Pages rules would tend to indicate it isn't. If the "only possible source of information" for some topic is a twelve year old's blog, then this means that we should not include this information on Misplaced Pages, not that we should cite the blog! Likewise, no matter how beneficial it would be to the article to have a neutral estimate of customer satisfaction (say), the fact of the matter is that we don't. In theory, something that's important enough to include on Misplaced Pages will be mentioned by an independent source; else it doesn't belong. I agree that there can and should be exceptions to this rule, but I think the rule itself is a good one. Ckerr 19:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You may be mistaken. Landmark can be a reliable source on itself, providing that the material it is properly attributed to them and not stated as a fact, is not unduly self-serving, is not used as a source for defaming third-parties, and it is pertinent to their notability. Also note that we do not have "rules" in Misplaced Pages. We have content policies (WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:NOR, and guidelines. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

See WP:V#Self-published_and_dubious_sources_in_articles_about_the_author.28s.29 ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the criteria on the page you cited is that the material not be contentious, and there is plenty of non-contentious material sourced to Landmark which no one complains about (for example, who the vice president is); no one is suggesting the removal of that sort of information. Instead, I'm talking about material which is contentious, such as the customer satisfaction rate or the fraction of clergy who are favorable to Landmark. According to the policy you cited, we should not use Landmark itself as a source on that. Ckerr 00:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The customer satisfaction rate may be contentious, but it is published by Harris. You can also cite the clergy testimonials, but not make quantitative assessments about percentages. All of the clery testimonials, by the way, are in the court documents. Sm1969 02:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The other thing--even some of the stuff you are construing negatively is provided by Landmark Education, e.g., the 7500 volnteers. The only way that could be known quantitatively is through Landmark Education. In other words, you are welcome to challenge any specific link, but not just the number of links. Sm1969 04:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I am disputing that a Corporate Website should be used to reference that they "said what they said", yes. Smeelgova 04:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

I am not construing anything positively or negatively. But it is not appropriate to reference a Corporate Website this many times in an article. There are often other places to find information. I am welcome to do whatever I see fit, especially in light of the Misplaced Pages Policy quoted above, which gives special warning about "controversial" companies. Thanks. Smeelgova 04:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

I don't believe it is the number of references that is the issue. The policy does not say anything about the quantitative references, but rather to use particular care. (It's not going to make a difference to the Google ranking of "Landmark Education" as #1 on a search for "Landmark Education.") Likewise, at this point, I'm not going to challenge the RickRoss web site for using articles in violation of copyright infringement in many cases as link targets. I believe the documents there are accurate thefts of intellectual property. Sm1969 04:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I have no idea to what specifically you are referring in this case. Smeelgova 05:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

As noted in the Judge Fadeley opinion, Rick Ross makes a living off of quoting other people's opinions. In the case of Rick Ross, he copies whole articles outright from magazine web sites onto his web site. That is copyright infringement, and it is against Misplaced Pages policy for us to be linking to them. However, since I believe the copies to be accurate, I am not going to challenge them at this point. Similarly, I request that you not challenge a link to Landmark Education solely because it is a link to Landmark Education. Sm1969 05:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Please give me a specific example as to what you are referring. Thanks. Smeelgova 07:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

Here is an example of contributory copyright infringement:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark2.html "Do you believe in Miracles?"

Rick Ross does not own that material; Elle Magazine does. Sm1969 07:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, literally thousands of websites do this. It's called properly attributing the article to the author and magazine with the proper date. Thanks. Smeelgova 07:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

No, not if the copyright is owned by someone else. Rick Ross does not own the link target. That URL should point to the link at Elle Magazine, if it exists there. If not, it is contributory copyright infringement. It does not matter how many do it. It's like the analogy with speeding that I gave you--the rules (law) is enforced against only a small percentage, but that does not change the law. Sm1969 07:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Printed media is a different matter entirely than your video argument (which was also bogus, but that is another matter). Proper attribution is given to a previously published article. In the case of referring to the Landmark Education Corporate Company's Website, these are only personal statements from individuals, not previously published in any source. And, they are not reproduced in full, so we can only assume that the company is doing its own form of "original research" and excerpting certain parts. If the links in question went to other publications/journals in which those attestations appeared, that would be another matter. Smeelgova 08:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

No one disputes that "France 3" owns the video copyright; that argument is on point; I'm sorry if you don't understand copyright law. The statements from individuals are published in full, and it would not be too hard to contact the respective individuals, e.g., heads of universities. Where they are excerpts, the original is almost always on-line. Sm1969 15:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Table

An editor asked my opinion about the "Successive organizational names and Customer Registrations" table in this diff: . Compared to the table in an alternate form, , the proposed version appears to take far more room and to use bold formatting to convey a small amount of data. The data on registrations could probably be handled in a more compact fashion, such as a line or two of text. Bold formatting is strongly discouraged by the WP:MOS beyond a few special uses. -Will Beback · † · 08:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The data on registrations is already mentioned in a few other locations in the article. This change to the table is inappropriate to say the least, and it makes the table look like a form of advertising, rather than a simple historical chronology. Smeelgova 09:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

Advert?

I removed the Advert template affixed by user:Smeelgova as this is plainly ludicrous in an article which has four entire screenfulls of negative gossip, innuendo and uninformed opinion.

I also deleted the phrase about 'third party commentators' since anyone whe 'expresses their views passionately' is clearly by definition not 'third party'.

I am firmly committed to this article being factual, accurate, informative and balanced, and in compliance with Misplaced Pages's policies on NPOV, verifiability and reliable sources.

After user:Smeelgova's latest binge of over 100 edits to this page in a day,it is increasingly hard to see his/her activities as anything other than a blatant attempt to hijack Misplaced Pages to propagate a particlular extreme POV about this organisation and individuals associated with it.

I have repeatedly tried to get discussion moving on this talk page about an appropriate way to portray the "controversies" accurately and fairly, but the article continues to suffer from the attentions of editors who want to give undue weight to minority - and often completely uninformed - opinions, and who blur the distinction between opinion and fact. DaveApter 12:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I very much agree. It is painful to go through all these edits and NPOV them, as it is quite clear that these are made with a specific POV in mind. WP will be best served, if contributing editors make an effort to edit the article dispassionately and without POV pushing as the main motive. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Herein lies the difficulty with being NPOV. It's true that Smeelgova has made a very large number of edits in a short period of time (though not "over 100 in a day"); but Sm1969 has made a comparable, if not greater, number of edits in the same amount of time. The only reason I can see that you did not call this a "binge" as well is because you agree with Sm1969's POV, as you share strongly positive personal views on Landmark Education.

Just to be clear on the ojective facts (since I made the original observation). Smeelgova made over 110 edits in the 12 hour period starting 21.55 on Nov 20 (not all on the LE article, but almost all LE related). Sm1969 doesn't seem to have made more than 50 (and rarely that many) in any 24 hour period. DaveApter 10:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right; I'm not sure what I was looking at. However, their contributions are still of comparable magnitude, at least compared to editors like me who average maybe 5 edits a day. Ckerr 03:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not defending Smeelgova's actions, but instead pointing out the fallacy of fighting fire with fire. Some pro-Landmark editors have made strongly POV edits in a misguided attempt to "balance out" the strongly POV anti-Landmark content. This is a hopeless battle with no winners, as the current state of the article attests to. (I don't think the article is that bad, as it stands--but given the number of hours people have put into it, it should be much better.)

I agree 100%. I appreciate your willingness, CKerr, to work towards a consensus on this page despite our differences in perspective. I also appreciate Jossi's efforts to bring a quality improvement to an article in which he has no personal axe to grind. I do agree too that attempts to "balance out" with strog POV content on both sides results in a poor article. I will put up some proposals for treatment of the disputed areas here in the next day or so. DaveApter 10:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

In short, I completely support the dispassionate editing of this article; however, in the past this has been used as an excuse (by both sides) to advance a particular POV. Ckerr 18:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you do not make assessments on my POVs or my intentions (FYI, I have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this article, and I have not a POV for or against it.) As in many articles about which there is controversy, pro and anti sides collide, but it is possible to help them come to terms with WP content policies. So, please help out if you can. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This isn't the place to question anyone's POV or intentions. If we have complaints about an editor's behavior there are more appropriate places to address it. -Will Beback · † · 19:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The talk page of an article is NOT the place to make accusations against individual editors and make assumptions about people's POV. We all come here with POV. That is besides the point. And for User:Jossi, I am disappointed by your comments above, assuming POV. If you do not wish for others to comment on their assumptions about your POV, please do not comment/make assumptions about others' POV. This is not the place for this. Let's all get back to discussing actual content, and stop personally attacking each other. This is all highly inappropriate. Thanks. Smeelgova 08:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC).

Smeelgova - it would be great if you actually followed your own advice on this point. DaveApter 10:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There is definitely one statement above that I agree with. Given the amount of time put into this article on all sides, it should be much better. Sm1969 11:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Jossi--your comment seems to be addressed to me? If you thought I was referring to you with my comment, I wasn't--my point is that every editor thinks that Misplaced Pages policy is on their side and that they're being dispassionate, while the other side is clearly a mouthpiece. Hence the advice to "be dispassionate" alone is not sufficient to resolve this type of conflict. I think it's rather strange to say you don't have a POV; it's like saying you don't have an accent. (I've heard both Australians and Americans passionately claim that; I would love for them to meet each other and find out that their "neutral" accents are totally different!) Both are defined only in relative terms, and while there are certainly extremes of each, one cannot define an absolute point of neutrality in either. Ckerr 03:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Statements needing citation

I currently count 14 statements in need of citation in this article. Overall, the quality is somewhat lacking.

This is fair comment; I have just added 5 citations and removed 2 uncited items.DaveApter 11:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm currently watching a piece of journalism ("Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus") which makes me somewhat worried about the reliability of Landmark Education being a reliable source of information.

That video has numerous problems with it, even the translation from French to English. The way the video was made, they suppressed all of the favorable testimony to LE and did not invite LE's choice of guests to appear to refute the claims. The people videotaped gave diametrically opposed statements to how they are portrayed (Abgrall and the women in the video). The list goes on and on. You aren't seeing Landmark Education's right-to-reply which has been quoted numerous times. Sm1969 02:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't shirk the issue - unprovable statements have no place in the article. While "Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus" is focused on the cult aspects of the Landmark Forum and no doubt contains some bias, the footage I have seen is pretty shocking. Even assuming the best intentions of a company, using their own website materials; or uncited studies paid for by the company as a basis for much information is this article is highly suspect. Where's the NPOV? Where's the ability to prove or disprove the truth? I can see none of that in the statements in question, and strongly advocate their removal. CloCkWeRX 09:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Take for instance; http://en.wikipedia.org/Landmark_Education#Evaluations_of_Landmark_Education

There are three listed academic studies, but only one is linked to. The topmost one:

University of Southern California

The University of Southern California (USC) Marshall School of Business carried out a case study into the work of Landmark Education Business Development (LEBD) at BHP New Zealand Steel.

The report concluded that the set of interventions in the organization produced a 50% improvement in safety, a 15% to 20% reduction in key benchmark costs, a 50% increase in return on capital, and a 20% increase in raw steel production

The USC makes the full study available.

... sounds like rubbish. A "50% improvement in safety"? "50% increase in return on capital"? That's all well and good, but I don't have a link to the paper, I don't know what the data was before (if I'm a one man company and hire someone else, have I just made a 100% increase in manpower?); so how can I evaluate the truth of these claims?

This is one of the things we are up against with an article that suffers an on-going edit war. There was originally a note of how to obtain it from the University of Southern California. This was removed by editors who objected that it was "advertising". I put it back in yesterday and user:Smeelgova removed it overnight. I will re-insert it now. DaveApter 10:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The second 'study'; which isn't cited, was paid for by the company itself.

This is one of the ones I have removed. DaveApter 11:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition, it must be noted that on the website (http://www.landmarkeducation.com) it's 'free for grad students'. If some of the claims which have been made against this organisation are true; it would be worth checking any newer academic materials to see if the author is/has been a participant in a forum session or other training program.

CloCkWeRX 12:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Would it be a good thing or bad thing if the author was a customer?

Sm1969 02:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how you view Astroturfing, but I tend to look upon it as a negative way to promote your company in the public eye. It certainly feels as if that's exactly what is taking place. CloCkWeRX 09:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do you assume that any past customer who carried out a study would be guilty of Astroturfing ? This, incidentally, is one of the perennial bug-bears of the debates about Landmark. A substantial portion of the most vociferous critics are people who have never experienced any of their courses. This leads to the charge by supporters that they don't know what they are talking about. The critics retort that the accounts by people who have done the courses are invalid because they are incapable of objective judgement. A very small proportion of the people who have done Landmark courses think they are complete crap (of the order of 1% in my estimation). A larger proportion think the courses are excellent, but have reservations about some of the company's practices. It's undeniable that a majority (ie over 50%, but probably much more than that in fact) register for several more courses and recommend them to their friends. For supporters, this is evidence that they found them effective and good value; for detractors, it's evidence that their judgement has been compromised. If you want to get some idea of the range of results that people get from this training, take a look at the teamleadership.org website (which I happen to know is not orchestrated by Landmark Education!).

Incidentally, re-reading your paragraph above, I think you misinterpreted something - the "Free for Grads" button on the LE site was referring to graduates of the Landmark Forum, not University graduates. (and what was on offer was an internet social networking service, not any of the courses).DaveApter 10:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

In actuality, the "social networking service" (which is a bit creepy by the way - only associating with other people who have done The Forum - weird.) is not free. There is a monthly fee. Smeelgova 13:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

Your information is out of date - there used to be a monthly fee, but it is now free as noted above. I don't think your opinions about it being 'creepy' are appropriate for this page; and who said anything about only associating with other people who have done The Forum? This is an extension of one's network, not a replacement. DaveApter 13:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Substantiation of Labor Department Investigatation

Here is what the "Ongoing Enterprises" article says. Adding is not the right thing to do. Removal is correct, until it can be sourced. Sm1969 06:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales has said with respect to biographies of living persons:

   "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random 

speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."

He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:

   "Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." 

While articles about enterprises are not as sensitive as biographies of living persons, the same general principles apply to articles about on-going enterprises.

While that may be what he said, the fact is there is currently a citation there. The was only added because you were not satisfied with it. In the meantime, I will search for a second suitable citation. Thanks ahead of time for your patience in this manner. Smeelgova 06:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

You do a Google search on "Roger Gayman" and you will see that there is such a guy working for the Department of Labor in San Francisco; however, nothing comes up in conjunction with Landmark Educaiton; furthermore, you go to the web site of "Fast Company" and do a search there and you also get nothing. Sm1969 06:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Very industrious. However, simply because a quoted statement is not yet available on the internet, does not mean that it is not citable or available by other means. I will keep you posted when I have more information on this. Thanks. Smeelgova 07:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

The standard, per Jimmy Wales, is that removal is "particularly true of negative information about living persons."

The facts remain, that the quote has a citation already, and will soon have a second one. The fact that you could within seconds easily verify that "Roger Gayman" works at the Department of Labor in San Francisco, lends credence and verifiability to the notion that this investigation is actually taking place into Landmark Education's controversial labor practices. And an investigation by the United States Department of Labor is most certainly a notable event, especially when coupled with a prior 1998 investigation, and a very similar labor investigation in France that drove the company out of the country. Smeelgova 07:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

Without knowing anything about the terms of reference of the "inquiry" it is not possible to know whether this is notable or not. Possibly it's not really notable until we know the outcome. The unusual fact that people volunteer their time to a for-profit corpoaration is prima facie debate-worthy (one of the few aspects of the so-called Controversies that is). This citation does nothing to cast any light on the issue. When the Department of Labor looked into it before, they concluded that there was no cause for concern. I don't know what it was that caused the French government to declare the practice illegal, but I wouldn't want to live anywhere the government took it upon itself to lay down what I can and can't choose to do in such matters. DaveApter 09:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, thank you in this particular instance for sticking to a content debate, and holding yourself back from personally attacking editors or making assumptions as to their POV. It is most appreciated. Thanks. Smeelgova 07:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

I don't think I have been "personally attacking editors" as noted by Will Pittenger. You are predisposed to that interpretation. An investigation by the Department of Labor may or may not be notable. If "Fast Company" included it, I'm sure they had a reason. The fact that I can verify Roger Gayman says little, given that the official US State Department link you had up for 2006 did not have LE in it. Sm1969 07:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

That is a separate matter, and was a good faith edit on my part. And as we saw, the 2005 report does mention LE, we have been over this. It was quite interesting to note how quickly certain editors falsely assumed that the information was "forged", as opposed to assuming good faith and that there must have been some sort of reason as to why the two reports had differed. Perhaps acting under a certain "already always listening" in that instance... Smeelgova 08:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

The first one to use the "forged" terminology was William Connelley. Sm1969 08:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks for pointing that out. In any event, "forged" was an erroneous classification, and a conclusion that was reached in extreme haste, as pointed out by the 2005 report which indeed does mention Landmark Education as a "sect". Smeelgova 09:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

For reasons I stated above in the paragraph discussing this item, it is not a notable fact and I am removing it again. Please address the points I made and secures some agreement before re-inserting it. DaveApter 09:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

One investigation may not be noteworthy, but multiple investigations most certainly are. Thanks. Smeelgova 12:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

Please see my comments above at , which user:Jossi seemed to endorse and no-one has refuted. Please do not put this item back until you have addressed this point and gained a consensus of agreement here. DaveApter 13:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Recruitment/Marketing section

Smeelgova, why do you keep reverting the change I made to the second citation? The one I put in from Fowler was relevant to issue under discussion and coherent, whereas the one you keep putting back from Lowell is not obviously pertinent and contains only a cryptic sentence fragment which barely makes sense.DaveApter 10:42, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Fowler is already mentioned previously in the article. We should not be mentioning Fowler so many times, particularly when his own letter is an official document and property of Landmark Education, that does not lend much credence to his letter. Thanks. Smeelgova 12:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

Quite the contrary, Raymond Fowler, PhD., has been prepared numerous times to give court testimony on Landmark Education. He is one of the best expert witnesses on the planet for Landmark Education. Sm1969 17:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

He may well have been mentioned in other contexts, but so what? The fact remains that this is a relevant quote for this particular debate, and the one you prefer simply reads as "wierd" and contributes little to the article. Fowler is a highly respected psychiatrist who has put his comments on the matter attributably in the public domain. Your characterisation of his letter as an "official" Landmark document (whatever that means) is neither here nor there. I don't think this is a POV issue; it's a question of the quality of the article and relevance to the topic. DaveApter 13:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Fowler is a clinical psychiatrist, with no experience or direct objective research studies in any field relating to cults, mind control or brainwashing of any kind. He is most certainly not an expert on the subject. Therefore his own "personal assertions" after directly going through The Forum are moot. The other academic is a more appropriate citation. Thanks. Smeelgova 13:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

But the personal assertion of a journalist, with no relevant expertise of any kind, is appropriate? This paragraph is nothing about "cults, mind control or brainwashing". It's about the fact that some people have opinions about there being a "hard sell". DaveApter 13:42, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The notions of "brainwashing" and "thought control" are extremely dubious to begin with, as he notes in his letter, occur only under extreme circumstances. The "cult" question has been addressed by courts and experts numerous times now, and continuously gone in favor of Landmark Education. Sm1969 17:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand the latest round of deletions and the selective quoting. I would warn editors to keep their POVs at bay. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Jossi, do you have any specific advice about the recent round of reverts? Personally I have had enough of this for the moment and I am giving it a break for 24 hours. DaveApter 16:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The "cult" question has actually not gone in Landmark's favor as many times as you may think, and Landmark has been labeled various negatively connotated things by various European governments. When I have attempted to mention this, I have been vigorously fought on this issue. I will keep trying to find more and more reputable sources for this information, especially as more information develops. Smeelgova 00:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

Here's what I have on the "cult" question:

1. Self Magazine -> retraction
2. Cynthia Kisser / Cult Awareness Network -> retraction
3. Margaret Singer -> retraction
4. Now Magazine -> retraction
5. Panorama -> retraction (Netherlands)
6. Infosekta -> retraction / correction (Switzerland)
7. FACTS Magazine -> retraction (Switzerland)

In slightly related questions:

1. German senate committee -> correction (World view / new religious movement)

What do you have going in your favor?

1. Austrian government committee (maybe, and 2006 may be a correction)
2. French government committee, now defunct, and per circulaire, told to rely on actual behaviour; further, France said they can not remove them LE from the list because the committee no longer exists!

The "Self Magazine" case established outright that the "cult" label is a triable question of fact. The fact that we have all the retractions thereafter, and, as Harry Rosenberg pointed out, "It is no longer possible for informed parties in the US to pin pejorative labels on us" indicate that such labelling is in violation of the Misplaced Pages content policy on libel.Sm1969 06:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That is how you interpret the Harry Rosenberg quote. It could also be interpreted to mean that they are using similar "fair game" and legal tactics as Scientology uses. "Always attack, never defend.", or in other words, make your opponents "retract" their statements, for they will not have the financial resources of a company to fight legal battles in courts, appeal decisions, and so forth. Sue and initiate myriads of frivolous litigations, for the purpose of legal intimidation in order to control an image in the public space. There are many interpretations of this. As far as portraying the information above, as long as it is sourced and factual, it should remain in the article. Thanks. Smeelgova 10:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

To me, it always seemed entirely obvious that Harry's remarks were indended in the sense indicated by Sm1969 above, and I was surprised when they were quoted out-of-context with the spin that Smeelgova suggests here. (If that is what he had meant, surely he wouldn't have said so in public?).

There's another point: Landmark has a real dilemma when it is faced with publication of false and defamatory material. If they just let it go, it remains as part of the public record for those who have an agenda to damage the organisation to sieze on as being "sourced and factual". If the initial polite requests for retraction or clarification are stone-walled (sometimes they are and sometimes they are not) then they have to decide whether or not to escalate the legal process. If they do, they are accused of harassment. DaveApter 12:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The "Cult" issue

A huge amount of time and energy is being expended on the question of whether or not Landmark is called a "Cult". This is completely futile for several reasons:

1. There are several different definitions and usages of the term.
2. It is generally perceived has having pejorative overtones, which may or may not have been intended by the original commentator.
3. It is listed amongst the Misplaced Pages 'words to avoid'
4. The problem is compounded where translation from another language is involved - for instance I have no idea how the Austrian 'Sekt' maps onto the complex of meanings and implications of the English word 'cult'. Does anyone else who edits this article?

More constructive and informative would be to describe specific (observable and measurable) characterisitics of LE which might be described as 'cult-like'. It is clear that it does not exhibit the most common and serious of them:

1. It does not prescribe any specific lifstyle, clothing or diet
2. It does not require on-going membership of any organisation
3. It does not request the donation of money or other assets
4. It does not isolate its customers from friends or family (in most cases the reverse is reported)
5. It does not require the performance of duties (although in any given year about 1% of customers do choose to volunteer to assist the operations, most of them for a modest amount of time; perhaps 30 - 60 hours over the year).
6. It does not restrict their options in life (generally it is reported that these are expanded).
7. It does not conflict with any religious belief that may be held by customers.

About the only "cult-like" characteristic I can see is that some customers become extremely enthusiastic. Opinion divides as to the extent to which this is an understandable reaction to the benefits they got from the courses or something inisidious. DaveApter 12:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Smeelgova - I don't really follow your justifications for removing the citations I just put in. I was trying to address the flags which I think had mostly been inserted by yourself. All of the pages I referenced were places where the assertion in the article could be verified. Where else other than from Landmark Education are you going to get information on matters susch as how many people take their courses each year or whether the Introduction Leaders' Program is a pre-requisite for other Program Leader roles?

And how is it 'Original Research' to give USC's phone number where copies of the cited research document can be obtained? This was in response to a (legitimate) complaint on this page that there was no way of verifying the information quoted. DaveApter 13:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Smeelgova, your edits have little justification at this point. This was all sourced information, and Admin Jossi had stated that LE was an acceptable source on itself, as long as we made the attribution. Sm1969 17:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

My name is "Jossi" and not "Admin Jossi". My intervention here has nothing to do with my status as an administrator. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies for titling you "Admin Jossi." I've gotten the impression over time that Smeelgova rarely takes me seriously, but if Jossi reverts an edit, Smeelgova takes it seriously. Sm1969 20:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

We must strive to find other sources for this information other than a Corporate Website, on an article about a for-profit, privately held company. This really looks like advertising for the company when there are this many citations directly from the company's website. Some minor statistical information is alright, but we should really find other reputable sources. And yes, posting a phone number in an encyclopedia article is highly inappropriate. Smeelgova 00:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC).

Who says? You appear to be making up policies to suit yourself. You sprinkle the article with flags to make it appear that statements which do not suit your POV are questionable, then - when the article is edited to indicate how the point can be verified, you remove the information according to some criteria of your own. DaveApter 08:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Reversions of Anonymous Comment

A few things: 1. I think it is clear that non-identified, non-logged in people should not make edits. Any anonymous edits should in my opinion be summarily reverted. We can't ask that person why they did it and it is an act of vandalism as far as I am concerned. 2. We should not make sweeping changes without discussion.

I have reverted the latest set of anonymous changes. People, please let's have some maturity about this process. Alex Jackl 15:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I second that; I also wish to react with sham rage against whoever it was who mangled the Time Magazine blockquote and labelled it with "citation needed". The other depressing thing I realised is that the article has the exact same problem now as it had about five months ago, which is what caused me to get involved in the first place--that is, that the sections "Allegations of brainwashing", "Recruitment/marketing", and "Religious implications" all end with a strongly pro-Landmark statement. I recall objecting, months ago, to the lengthy double quotation of Raymond Fowler, as he is quoted on pretty much the same issue twice; this is especially problematic since his neutrality is suspect (his letter being an "official document"). I seem to recall there was rough agreement with my sentiment at the time, and one of the quotes was moved or removed altogether.

And now we've come full circle. Surely there could be no more frustrating article to edit? It takes over a thousand edits just to get back to where it started. If anyone makes stupendously imbecilic edits, I might come by to fix them, but otherwise I think I have better things to do than edit this black hole of an article. You probably do, too--and that goes for everyone. Ckerr 17:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, Raymond Fowler, past president of the American Psychological Association, gave a lenghty opinion on the subject matter, and has offered to testify as an expert witness numerous times, as cited in the court documents. There is nothing wrong with quoting him to give Landmark Education's point of view.

I agree. But two long quotes? Saying pretty much the same thing? It's just not good writing. I think the quote which ends the article sums up his view, and Landmark's, quite well. Ckerr 10:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I originally put that in, and included it as an exemplar of the fact that opinion is divided on the subject of how excessive is the drive to sign up for more courses. I included him simply as a customer with a sourced citable comment on the subject, not as an "expert". The quote from him at the end of the article is on a different set of issues. Incidentally the 'Landmark Reformers' group set up a petition on this and they't got about 50 signitures after several months the last time I looked, so it doesn't seem to be all that much of a red-hot gripe. Also I see that Smeelgova has just taken it out again, as well as reverting your edit of this morning. DaveApter 12:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The section on "brainwashing" can be libelous, and in violation of the Misplaced Pages content policy on libel. I can name about 10 expert witnesses who think that interpretation is absurd, and the only proponents have zero qualifications (Martin Lell, who else?) Thus, LE has a majority point of view against "brainwashing" (in addition ot the libel content policy), and I believe the article should reflect LE's majority point of view. Then, there are those who have retracted as part of a court settlement.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how the section on "brainwashing" could possibly be libelous; this is something you've brought up numerous times before, but not that I've seen with justification, since the article only quotes what others have said. I also find your logic rather tenuous that because you can name 10 expert witnesses, Landmark therefore has the majority point of view. In addition to being original research possibly with systematic bias (depending on your sources), it's not exactly a statistically significant sample size. Ckerr 10:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

In the United States, the question of "brainwashing" has been found to be a triable question of fact, capable of being proven true or false. I'll have to get you a reference on that. Requoting factually false and defamatory material from other people is also libel, against the Misplaced Pages content policy of libel. The determination of majority/minority points of view is inherently subjective, and we have the quantitative tests from Jimbo Wales about identifying and naming people who hold a point of view. I don't know what a statistically significant sample is; rather, I look at the qualifications and number of people holding the point of view, to make an assertion about which are majority/minority points of view within NPOV, leaving the libel issue aside. Sm1969 03:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this can degenerate to futile wordsmithing. It's similar to the "cult issue" - it's not clear what the word means, it's not clear who has attributably made the claim, or what they meant by it. I'm not sure that there's even enough tangible on the subject to even justify the inclusion of the section.DaveApter 12:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't dispute that "brainwashing" can be a question of fact--I'm disputing that requoting defamatory statements for the purpose showing that people have made said statements can itself be defamatory. (To me that's like calling someone a racist for quoting a Victorian-era writer who referred to native people as "savages".) Anyway, I think since the brainwashing issue was mentioned in the Time Magazine article, that alone is makes it significant enough to mention, although I agree that it (and the cult issue) are quite slippery.

It's possible, however, that the main reason these things are so slippery is that anyone who makes a statement that is not slippery will soon have a date with Art Schreiber. If that's the case--and it's pretty much impossible to prove it isn't--then we should hardly ignore a point of view because its proponents are too scared to espouse it. Ckerr 11:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The section on "recruitment/marketing" I am less certain about. LE's point of view is that it is word of mouth marketing, and even Pressman notes that LE is one of the greatest success stories in mass marketing. There is also expert testimony against there being anything to "join." That said, there is substance to discuss on LE's marketing practices, and the section should be balanced. I'm not so sure LE has a majority position within NPOV on the marketing practices, but I believe they do against "recruitment."

I'm not sure if one exactly needs to be an expert to report if they felt "pressured". Certainly in my Forum the majority of people I spoke to felt unpleasantly pressured. Anyway, I'm not saying this is proof that the majority of people feel pressured, only that it seems to be the most widespread criticism of Landmark. By the way, Lowell's quote in this section makes no sense. Ckerr 10:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The section on "religious implications" is one, I believe, again, where LE has a majority position within NPOV. I can name about 10 members of the clergy in favor of LE who have given supportive statements and maybe one or two against (Paul Derenkowski and the Apologetics Index are quoted, and the Apologetics Index, does not really have much to say regarding religious or theological aspects).

I don't particularly doubt that they do have a majority point of view, but I think the exact numbers are very hard to tell. I think this section is currently fine. Ckerr 10:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

In short, User:Ckerr, I believe you think NPOV means both sides must be portrayed equally. That is not neccessarily the case. Within NPOV, the content policy distinguishes three levels of support: 1) majority, 2) significant minority, 3) insignificant minority. The majority positions are entitled to lengthier explanations. I don't believe they are portrayed as the "truth" let alone "The Truth." Sm1969 00:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

No, of course I don't think NPOV means "equal treatment". However, in cases where it is not entirely clear where what fraction believes what, it is better to err on the side of balance. I don't agree with your sentiment that majority opinions should automatically receive lengthier treatments; I recall one problem with this article, which has since been fixed, is that the refutations of the criticisms so outweighed the actual criticisms that it was impossible to tell what the criticisms actually were. The section is called "Criticisms"; if the rebuttals outweigh the criticisms, then the section should be renamed "Rebuttals of criticisms". Ckerr 10:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Silly wikilinks?

Whoever is adding these silly and not relevant Wikilinks: please stop. Also note that linking from within quoted text should be avoided, unless absolutely necessary. See WP:MOS#Wikilinking, and Misplaced Pages:Only_make_links_that_are_relevant_to_the_context ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

These appear to be contributions from User:Smeelgova who used to Wikilink addition tool, as noted in a user comment from Smeelgova; see this diff from User:Smeelgova http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Landmark_Education&diff=prev&oldid=90088362

Sm1969 03:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Jeez, guys, don't come down so hard on me! It was a simple experiment with a new Wikilink tool, and had nothing to do with POV or anything like that. Thanks for not assuming good faith. Yeesh. Smeelgova 07:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC).

The lack of assumption of good faith is an interpretation on your behalf. Jossi found them silly, and I merely identified the source. Sm1969 09:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Smeelgova, you have the tendency to go a bit overboard with links, so please if you want to try new tools, please use the sandbox. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

No consensus on succession of organizational names

No, we don't have a consensus (you and I) on the "succession of organizational names" for the following reasons:

A) Courts have upheld no successor liabilty, and several prongs of that test failed.

B) Rick Ross even acknowledged in his response to LE that he would keep Est, LE and the Forum separate, and there is some intent to keep them separate there

C) Many of the names are not notable (e.g., Breakthrough and Transnational having been in existence for a week and a few months)

D) The courses are not the same, and even "Time Magazine" has stated that.

E) Very large corportions, such as IBM, had previous names which are not mentioned at all.

This should be redacted from all sections, and in a few cases, the transitory names used only in footnotes. This manner of portraying things appears in no major journal and scarcely even in blogs. Sm1969 06:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This was stable in the article for a while. It is all sourced information, does not take up much space, and is highly relevant. The previous names are an important part of the article, not to mention they help serve as an important navigational box. Thanks. Smeelgova 06:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

Stability is irrelevant. You have put in 2000+ edits on LE and others don't have all day to spend editing Misplaced Pages. It is sourced, but does take up too much space, and gives undue weight to things that are factually in error, i.e., it is not the same corporation. Go look at other corporations that have similar facets and you will not see this at the beginning, e.g., the renaming of IBM. Sm1969 06:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The amount of edits I put it are irrelevant. Please try to keep the discussion to the content at hand. Thanks. Smeelgova 07:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

It may not be the same corporation, but the organizations are very very highly linked. Virtually all of the entire executive staff are the same, and most who make high level decisions have been involved with the company since before there was a company. And IBM is not a good example. IBM is not a controversial company like Landmark Education, and has not been labeled as a "cult" or "cult-like" by members of the press and foreign governments. This is not a good comparison. Thanks. Smeelgova 07:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

These are separate issues. The amount of edits you put in is relevant regarding stability. You put in so many edits that it would take an army to refute them, which is why certain items remain "stable" but highly non-compliant with Misplaced Pages content policies, such as notability, undue weight, verifiability. This is a refutation to your stability argument. Thank you for acknowledging that it is not the same organization. Further, in a direct rename (as in "Borland" to "Inprise" then back to "Borland" all of the corporation is the same, including the assumption of assets and liabilities. IBM at one time was a very controversial company, from say 1960 to 1985, where it was considered a monopoly, and that has nothing to do with your argument for the succession of organizational names. Members of the press--where there is accountability--have been held to account in Canada, the Netherlands and the United States for their tortious acts of calling a "cult" when that was subject to concrete meaning, capable of being proven true or false. France is the only place that has retained that characterization, from a now defunct parliamentary committee.

IBM is a relevant comparison for corporate renames. This successioon of organizational names is both factually in error as they are not the same corporation and undue weight. Sm1969 08:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Landmark Dating and Evidence for Techniko

"Landmark Dating" is not a subsidiary, but a service they offer.

What evidence do you have for "Techniko"? Sm1969 06:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The information is already sourced. Thanks. Smeelgova 06:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

See the citation and appropriate reference. Tekniko is and always was a subsidiary of Landmark Education. Thanks. Smeelgova 06:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

Tekniko is sourced, but "LandmarkDating" is not a subsidiary, neither is Rancord. The Japanese centers are fully owned. Sm1969 06:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you have secondary sources for this? Thanks. Smeelgova 07:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

The burden is on you for LandmarkDating and Rancord, in either bringing it in to the article or in preventing me from striking it, for you to provide sources that they are "subsidiaries." Sm1969 07:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

From where do you have this alleged information that Rancord is "fully owned"? And what do you mean by "fully owned"? Owned by whom? The centers themselves? Are they connected to Landmark Education in any way? Does Werner Erhard own them? Does Harry Rosenberg? Thanks. Smeelgova 07:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

Again, you can point to the LE web site and see the Japanese centers as part of LE. The burden of proof is on you editor to show that Rancord even exists in 2006 to bring it into the article. As you yourself noted, LE bought the Japanese operation from Erhard in 2001. Redacting. Thanks. Sm1969 08:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Rules of the Landmark Forum

I have removed the section on the rules of the Landmark Forum as they are not notable and frankly, out of date. I have renamed it the STructure of the Landmark Forum to better suit the content.

Just because something is sourced does not mean it belongs in an encyclopedia article on the topic. For instance , if the National Enquirer published that George Bush had a rule that he enver went to bed without consulting space aliens that would be a referencable piece of information about the topic of the article. However, you would not include because it is patently untrue (or at last a majority of people would assume it is not! :-) )

Likewise for if you were doing an article on HP you could find hundreds of articles mentioning Carly Fiori as the head of the company. Legitemate, sourced references that could be entered following Misplaced Pages's guidelines- they would just be wrong and out of date.

It takes notability and appropriateness to be included as well. If there is five lines on all the courses put on by Landamrk- a company that does courses - seven out-of-date and innacurate lines on the rules in ONE of the dozens of courses Landmark holds is totally out of proportion. Please let's use some judgement in attempting to stay NPOV. Please do not revert this back without discussion.

Alex Jackl 06:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This information is highly sourced and includes recent sources. It is notable as a key part of the beginning of "The Forum", and has been commented on in multiple articles. Thanks. Smeelgova 07:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC).

If you read my comments above you will see that I don't doubt that they are sources- only that they are not relevant and non-notable. If we mention the rules then we need to restore all the course descriptions- that were taken out to "reduce size" yet are far more relevant and notable than a series of agreements at the beginning of the course. Alex Jackl 15:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Non-Neutral POV

Not to mention or even to reference the extremely widespread allegations against Landmark for brainwashing in the first paragraph is ludicrous and a perversion of what Wiki is all about -- presenting the truth about the topics of our day. I am convinced that cult members are monitoring this page and trying to whitewash out any attempts to add such a reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wbroun (talk • contribs) 11:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

No, we had this conversation already regarding brainwashing, cult, etc. They should come later and all have legal implication (See Misplaced Pages's policy on libel) and should be given a full evidentiary response from the other side. Your edit is "marginally vandalism" in the words of one administrator. Sm1969 16:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, sorry bud, but the results of "this conversation" have led to ludicrous results, and you can take your vandalism accusation and re-examine it VERY carefully. You are trying to whitewash Landmark Education's cultural history, never mind your unfounded scare-tactic litigation-mongering. I suspect that you have ties to the cult. You can call my belief a "personal attack" if you want, but I have little doubt that ONLY a cult member would try to seek to bury Landmark's dubious history. Wbroun

Actually, the administrator agrees that it is vandalism and that the edit is unprofesssional. The New York State Supreme court has held that an assertion of LE (or any entity) being a cult is a triable question of fact and that it is plainly derogatory. Thereupon, "Self Magazine" and Margaret Singer retracted their assertions. That's pretty strong evidence--along with all the other retractions--that your assertion is in violation of Misplaced Pages content policy on libel. Please read the content policy on libel. There is nothing "dubious" about their history. Over 90% find their courses to be worth the time and money. I'll have to get the administrators involved. Sm1969 20:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Sweden: International Religious Freedom Report 2006, US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, 2006, Section I. Religious Demography.

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