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Deceptive Edit summary

@El C: - Kazemita, in their edit here () removed "The MEK’s supporters present the group as a viable alternative to Iran’s theocracy", which the Reuters article supports (). Kazemita1 did not say anything in their edit summary about removing this sourced material. Isn't this a deceptive edit summary? Barca (talk) 16:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

@BarcrMac: they're claiming to be going back to the longstanding text. But at any case it is a quote, yet it was placed in the body without quotation mark (i.e. as original prose), which is a copyrights violation — so it cannot be restored, regardless. As an aside, I also notice that note 435 and 436, where this viable alternative quote is also mentioned, are duplicated. El_C 16:37, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

@El C: can I just use paraphrasing and quotes to insert this text back into the article? Also, isn't Kazemita1's edit summary deceptive nonetheless? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:08, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Like I have mentioned in my edit summary there are many things wrong with Barca's edit. To begin with, he replaced the analysts's view on MEK not having support in Iran with "other sources say". Furthermore, he has re-written the section such that a single quote in favor of MEK is preferred to plethora of sources stating MEK's lack of support in Iran. . In simple words he is promoting a minority view to a majority view which is against WP:UNDUE. So to get back to Stefka's question, no paraphrasing is not the only issue with his edit.Kazemita1 (talk) 09:59, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

References

1. Yeganeh Torbati (16 January 2017), "Former U.S. officials urge Trump to talk with Iranian MEK group", Reuters, Reuters, retrieved 20 July 2017, The MEK's supporters present the group as a viable alternative to Iran's theocracy, though analysts say it is unpopular among Iranians for its past alignment with Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and attacks on Iranian soldiers and civilians.
2. "Iranian dissidents in Iraq: Where will they all go?", The Economist, 11 April 2009, retrieved 15 June 2018, In return, the PMOI made attacks on Iran itself, which is why Iranians of all stripes tend to regard the group as traitors.
3. Afshon Ostovar (2016). Vanguard of the Imam: Religion, Politics, and Iran's Revolutionary Guards. Oxford University Press. pp. 73–74. ISBN 978-0-19-049170-3. Unsurprisingly, the decision to fight alongside Saddam was viewed as traitorous by the vast majority of Iranians and destroyed the MKO's standing in its homeland.
4. Magdalena Kirchner (2017). "'A good investment?' State sponsorship of terrorism as an instrument of Iraqi foreign policy (1979–1991)". Western Foreign Policy and the Middle East. Routledge. pp. 36–37. ISBN 9781317499701. With regard to weakening the Iranian regime domestically, MEK failed to establish itself as a political alternative, its goals and violent activities were strongly opposed by the Iranian population–even more so its alignment with Iraq. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)
5. Jonathan R. White (2016), Terrorism and Homeland Security, Cengage Learning, p. 239, ISBN 978-1-305-63377-3, The group is not popular in Iran because of its alliance with Saddam Hussein and Iran–Iraq war.
6. Cohen, Ronen (August 2018). "The Mojahedin-e Khalq versus the Islamic Republic of Iran: from war to propaganda and the war on propaganda and diplomacy". Middle Eastern Studies. 54 (6).

@BarcrMac: or @Stefka Bulgaria: or @Kazemita1: can you point me to when that copyvio was inserted so that I can revdelete it. Sorry for the multi-ping, but I forgot about this and would rather attend to it sooner rather than later. El_C 21:47, 1 November 2019 (UTC) @El C:.

It has not been reinserted as there were multiple objections against its inclusion beyond copyvio.--Kazemita1 (talk) 04:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

But do you know when it was originally inserted before it was removed? El_C 04:14, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

@El C:Yes, here it is.Kazemita1 (talk) 06:23, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. El_C 14:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

@Kazemita1: In these two edits ( and ) you put back in the article that "UNHCR, HRW and the governments of France have described it as a cult", but your edit summaries do not say where this is supported. Can you please elaborate? Barca (talk) 15:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

See discussions here about objections against the change made by Stefka and compare my text with the long-standing version. Also, by all means, feel free to contribute to that discussion.--Kazemita1 (talk) 18:10, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I am also having a hard time understanding this revert. Kazemita1, in a few words, can you explain why you reverted this? Ypatch (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@Barca @Ypatch: I am sorry my edit summary was not clear to you. However, bear in mind that you guys were not involved as much in the discussions back then. If you had, you would know I am reverting to the long-standing version due to objections made by other users involved in the discussion. Anyways, I went ahead and reviewed the text just now; I added sources for France government and HRW claims and removed UNHCR assertion.--Kazemita1 (talk) 07:59, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@Kazemita1: Where in the HRW document does it say the MEK is a "cult"? Ypatch (talk) 21:37, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Sorry to bother you. Here is a piece by Human Rights Watch:

"The MKO’s leadership consists of the husband and wife team of Masoud and Maryam Rajavi. Their marriage in 1985 was hailed by the organization as the beginning of a permanent “ideological revolution.” Various phases of this “revolution” include: divorce by decree of married couples, regular writings of self-criticism reports, renunciation of sexuality, and absolute mental and physical dedication to the leadership. The level of devotion expected of members was in stark display in 2003 when the French police arrested Maryam Rajavi in Paris. In protest, ten MKO members and sympathizers set themselves on fire in various European cities; two of them subsequently died."

Would you say the above piece supports the following assertion: "HRW described MEK as a cult built around its leaders" ?Kazemita1 (talk) 10:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

The excerpt certainly does not say so outright. As for whether the description alone supports the statement — that is a content question I'd rather not involve myself further in. But I did close your blockquote! El_C 11:18, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Appreciate the blockquote fix! Where would be a right place to ask for third opinion regarding this issue?--Kazemita1 (talk) 11:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Third opinion would be my immediate suggestion! El_C 17:29, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

The violation of EmilCioran1195

It seems that EmilCioran1195 violated the restriction of the page, at first he added the group's ideology to the infobox, it was reverted by me, then he reverted it for the second time.@El C: I wonder if you check the situation.Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 09:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

please refer to me what "violation" of any "restriction" (policy?) I have made. Secondly, explain why the BBC is wrong/inappropriate in applying the designation cited. Best regards, - EmilCioran1195 (talk) 09:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

additional sources: New York Review of Books, HuffPo, Council of Foreign Relations, The Guardian, teleSur EmilCioran1195 (talk) 09:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Ervand Abramanian, The Iranian Mojahedin, (Page 145)

Sussan Siavoshi, Montazeri: The Life and Thought of Iran's Revolutionary Ayatollah, (p. 80): "In 1975, a group

Baktiari, Bahman. Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies; Villanova, Pa. Vol. 13, Iss. 1, (Fall 1989). The leftist challenge: The mojahedin-e khalq and the tudeh party. "The Mojahedin wanted the Islamic Revolution to help them establish an egalitarian society through the fusion of Marxism and Islam"

The page restrictions are the top of the page. Please adhere to them. That said, I have always tried to subscribe to the notion that reverting due solely to "no consensus" is a problem. That is why I keep asking for substantive objections. El_C 17:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

EmilCioran1195, the MEK's ideology has changed through the years, see Ideology, a section that consists of many sources. Also in another BBC article, "Since the 1970s, its rhetoric has changed from Islamist to secular; from socialist to capitalist; from pro-Iranian-revolution to anti-Iranian-revolution; from pro-Saddam to pro-American; from violent to peaceful." So please do not include this without a talk page discussion first. Alex-h (talk) 22:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

The case is not that simple. See Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran/Archive 7#Marxism as ideology. --Mhhossein 21:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

EmilCioran1195 - you have ignored the comments here. The MEK ideology is not a simple case, so will remove for now until this is better determined. Barca (talk) 11:19, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Removing sourced content

@EmilCioran1195:, why did you pick up well-sourced material just by mentioning "restore more neutral POV", please provide the substantive objections that admin reminded you! Saff V. (talk) 10:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Wrong assertion

Barca made an assertion here that following checking the source appears to be wrong. Here is what the source says:

The Mujahidin have been careful to demonstrate their reluctance to resort to violence. Violence as a means, according to Rajavi was imposed on the organization only when Khomeini denied it every legitimate means of political activity. "Violence, bombing, and terror could not resolve Iran's problems, but it is Khomeini's terrorism that has pushed our people to armed resistance"

Despite Barca's edit, the source does not -in any way- relate establishing National Council of Resistance of Iran to Mujahidin's "demonstration" of reluctance to resort to violence. @El C: Such careless editing shall not be tolerated in a sensitive article like this.--Kazemita1 (talk) 05:47, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand why you pinged me. If you disagree with the edit, revert it and discuss it here with the other party. El_C 05:51, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita - you pointed out that the source says "The Mujahidin have been careful to demonstrate their reluctance to resort to violence. What I added was "even though it made a point to show they were reluctant to violence." Why is the wrong for you? Barca (talk) 10:48, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Kazemita1, dial it down, please; the content you removed here does seem to be supported by the source. The only issue is that the rest of that sentence isn't; but that wasn't added by Barca, was it? Barca, when you add sources to the middle of a paragraph, you need to be careful not to break the connection between the content that already existed and sources that may have been supporting it; in this case, it would seem that the Ostovar source was being used for that sentence, but that was no longer clear after your addition. The way to fix that is to duplicate sources when necessary. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:05, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Vanamonde, Ok, but I checked the Ostovar source and it does not say anything about the MEK "continuing to conduct violent attacks in Iran". I don't know who added that, but because it's not represented by the source, it should be removed. Also if you agree that what Kazemita removed was represented by the source, then I will add it back to the article. Thank you for your input. Barca (talk) 12:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@BarcrMac: The trouble is that the source you added is good for the content which you added, but the way you stuck it in the middle of a sentence made it look like the source was for the whole sentence when it wasn't. I don't care how you address that problem, but you need to address it; in general, in a contentious article, a footnote (or a set of them) should support the entire span of text that is between it and the previous footnote. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@Barac:"continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years" is in Ostovar source page 73 in the last paragraph. I am surprised you missed it.--Kazemita1 (talk) 07:20, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Removal by Kazemita1

Kazemita1, the Guardian article says "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes" (), for this reason I added that "Critics of the group in recent years (such as experts, various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW, and the governments of the United States and France ) describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes.". What I added is represented by the source. Why did you remove it? () Barca (talk) 22:12, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

You could fix it by making it look like the Guardian source. Precisely speaking, you can change the part that says "Those who criticize the group refer to it as "a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran"" to "Those who criticize the group and many who quit from the group refer to it as "a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran"". --Kazemita1 (talk) 07:08, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I did fix it to read like the Guardian source. Why did you revert it? Barca (talk) 15:08, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

You did not. You mixed up sentences and sources together. Vandermonde had explained to you that you should be careful with this.Kazemita1 (talk) 17:08, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Vanamonde93: Kazemita reverted my edit saying that I'm mixing up sentences, but my intention is to expand an existing sentence in the article with a source from Guardian (the Guardian article is talking about the same thing as the claim I edited):

Source from Guardian:

"Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes, condemned to die out at the obscure base in Albania because of its enforced celibacy rules." ()

The claim I edited:

"Critics of the group in recent years (such as experts, various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW, and the governments of the United States and France ) describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes.".

Is this not a valid edit? Here is the edit that was reverted by Kazemita (I had removed some info at the bottom by mistake which is unrelated to this edit) (). Thanks. Barca (talk) 22:11, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

@BarcrMac: your proposed wording is far too close to the source, and borders on a copyright violation. As I've explained on this page previously, both people who add content and those who object to it need to be better about finding paraphrasing that doesn't alter the meaning of the source, while being sufficiently removed from the specific phrasing. Even stylistically, the sentence is poor; the bit about lack of support outside Iran probably belongs elsewhere in the article, for instance. Vanamonde (Talk) 08:00, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Not in the source and too many reverts

@Kazemita1: you put the article that "Many famous pro-MEK politicians have declared receiving money from the group." (). I reverted () putting in the edit summary that the BBC article does not say the MEK paid the politicians (which is what you have added to the article). The BBC article says that "Many get paid. Of those who have declared their earnings, the going rate for a pro-MEK speech seems to be $20,000 (£12,500) for 10 minutes.", so this is not the same as the MEK paying them. You still put this back in the article (). This you should have discussed here first because the article has revert restrictions, and also what you are adding is not represented by the source. Barca (talk) 18:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Who else would have paid those politicians for speaking pro MEK?! Here is another quote from the source to prove the point:

"Some supporters are paid, others see the MEK through the prism of Iran - they will just support anything that offers hope of change there. Many are well motivated but some are naive."

Anyways, I found two other sources (independent.co.uk and the guardian) that explicitly state MEK paying former American politicians:

the MEK continues to pay former U.S. officials for their time

the MeK, which operates under a set of front groups, writes very large cheques to those speaking at their events. Estimates are in the range of $30,000 to $50,000 per speech. Bolton is estimated to have received upwards of $180,000 to speak at multiple events for MeK. His recent financial disclosure shows that he was paid $40,000 for one speech at an MeK event last year.

--Kazemita1 (talk) 06:55, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Last but not least, another confirmation in WP:RSN here that the BBC source does say who pays the pro-MEK politicians.Kazemita1 (talk) 07:16, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 - The Guardian sources you have provided do not say that "Many famous pro-MEK politicians have declared receiving money from the group" (neither does the WP:RSN discussion here). Your conclusion "Who else would have paid those politicians for speaking pro MEK?!" () is original research. There is also the dispute that not all of those who speak on behalf of the MEK get paid. This is a sensitive claim, and this one sentence in the lead is POV. Will rewrite to what the source claims and put this in the body where it can be given some context. Thank you. Barca (talk) 15:13, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

In my inquiry in WP:RSN I specifically asked the contributors to comment on my edit (that you are disputing). Since their verdict is on my side, I suggest you continue the discussion with them on this topic as I am starting to doubt your English skills. (assuming good faith that is)Kazemita1 (talk) 17:04, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

But the "verdict" is no "on your side" at WP:RSN. The BBC source say "Many get paid. Of those who have declared their earnings, the going rate for a pro-MEK speech seems to be $20,000 (£12,500) for 10 minutes. But then many other prominent MEK supporters act without payment." () So, some get paid, some don't, and it is not clear if payment always comes from MEK, or MEK supporters, etc. If we are to add this, then it should start in the body where it can be explained. I suggest you add this there in a neutral way (saying that some get paid, but some do not). Barca (talk) 14:36, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Like I said, I suggest you discuss it with the un-involved contributors in WP:RSN. My inquiry is clear and so is the verdict. You can also consult an English-speaking editor as it seems you are having difficulty reading English text.--Kazemita1 (talk) 17:47, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Nobody at WP:RSN said you should include this in the lead of the article and revert like you did here () removing the neutrality. The information has been added and with some neutrality, so please stop reverting making it un-neutral. Barca (talk) 16:05, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Brother, in WP:RSN they commented on my edit in which I had added the content in the lead..--Kazemita1 (talk) 20:07, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

• Kazemita1, if you want to find other sources for this claim, it's fine; but the BBC source is only good enough for saying that the politicians get paid, not for saying that the MEK pays them. That conclusion is original research, if based solely on the BBC source. Vanamonde (Talk) 07:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:Even though BBC does say MEK pays those politicians (as confirmed here in the reliable source noticeboard) here are two other sources that support the claim that MEK pays politicians:

the MEK continues to pay former U.S. officials for their time

the MeK, which operates under a set of front groups, writes very large cheques to those speaking at their events. Estimates are in the range of $30,000 to $50,000 per speech. Bolton is estimated to have received upwards of $180,000 to speak at multiple events for MeK. His recent financial disclosure shows that he was paid $40,000 for one speech at an MeK event last year.

Please, kindly let me know if you are still not convinced the claim passes verifiability threshold. Kazemita1 (talk) 12:09, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, those sources support the content in question. You need to reach consensus on whether they constitute due weight. Vanamonde (Talk) 12:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

do self revert

@EmilCioran1195: please do self revert the edit which is not verified by any sources and admin reverted it.Saff V. (talk) 09:54, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Me being an admin should have no bearing on reverting the unsourced addition by the IP, which was restored by EmilCioran1195 in violation of this article's restriction, and using an automated edit summary only. But I get the sense that EmilCioran1195 is heading toward a topic or at least an article ban, if they continue to be that unresponsive. My involved opinion is that EmilCioran1195's revert may be re-reverted by anyone (although I'm not going to do so), and that, if they revert again, I will ask another admin to apply the IRANPOL restrictions to them, which seem due, anyway. El_C 17:22, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Info is sourced (even though it really doesn't need to be). A quick Google Books or Google Scholar search will reveal longstanding Soviet support for the MeK over several decades. Why on earth would you want to deny/hide this? EmilCioran1195 (talk) 05:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

That is not how Misplaced Pages works. Source it, then — do not restore the unsourced content and do not refer us to google. And definitely do not cast aspersions. El_C 05:17, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

It's mentioned in practically every source cited in the bibliography. Why delete it, if you know it is correct? Or, if you don't know if it's correct or not, why not carry out the 60 seconds of research required to verify it's correct, before deleting it?

Is that how Misplaced Pages works? You delete everything whether you know it's correct or not?

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about with regards to "casting aspersions". Bizarre. EmilCioran1195 (talk) 12:41, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Too many bad faith assumptions on your part, EmilCioran1195. Why on earth would you want to deny/hide this? — is casting aspersions. I do not want to deny or hide anything. I want that items to be sourced, like every-other-item-alongside-it. What is bizarre is that you failed to do so the first time.

Is that how Misplaced Pages works? You delete everything whether you know it's correct or not? — I did not know it was correct. I did know it was unsourced. Thank you for finally sourcing it. But you should have done it after I instructed the IP against introducing unsourced items, instead of reverting the addition without a source. That reflected poorly on you. El_C 08:11, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Also, in regards to your edit summary here: Soviet support for MeK over the decades is so well documented and such common knowledge that I am surprised El C deleted it twice from the infobox. source added. First, that is factually incorrect I removed (not deleted) the addition one time, not twice. Second, it may be common knowledge to people from Iran, but I'm not from Iran. El_C 08:21, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Please pay attention to this, the page is under IRANPOL restrictions which demanded the involved user is not allowed to revert the reverted edit until the consequence will be gained. it was the first point. Secondly, As WP:UNSOURCED asked, The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.. It is your responsibility to prepare RSes for cited material, All in all, please revert your edit or support it by inerting other sources, not academia.Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 09:01, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Too much emphasis on "seemed"

Kazemita1 - You added this "but it "seemed" as part of an MEK campaign including a bombing in Qom following the assassination of the governor of Evin prison, the killing of IRP radical Hasan Ayat and an assassination attempt on Ali Khamenei was presenting the speech at Abuzar Mosque." () This problematical because you are giving too much emphasis in a contentious article on something that "seemed", but was not confirmed. Barca (talk) 15:17, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

First of all, I did not add it to the article. It was there for a long time until you removed it a few days ago. All I did was to use direct quote for the word "seemed" so that it is closer to the source. Secondly, we are balancing the above statement regarding who was possibly behind this attack with what follows next, i.e. with two statements that oppose the firs one:

According to Kenneth Katzman, "there has been much speculation among academics and observers that these bombings may have actually been planned by senior IRP leaders, to rid themselves of rivals within the IRP". According to Ervand Abrahamian, "whatever the truth, the Islamic Republic used the incident to wage war on the Left opposition in general and the Mojahedin in particular". According to the U.S department of state, the bombing was carried out by the MEK.

Besides, the source that used the word "seemed" is written by an academic person not related to the dispute and is published by Oxford University Press. Therefore, in light of the fact that this was part of the longstanding text, I am putting it back to the article.--Kazemita1 (talk) 06:18, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Katzman makes an assertion that there has been speculation within academics, and Abrahamian makes makes an assertion that "the Islamic Republic used the incident to wage war on the Left opposition in general and the Mojahedin in particular", so it's not the same. You are also repeatedly reaching your own consensus and reverting, I think you were warned not to do this.(). Barca (talk) 15:26, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

The sanctions are not related to the long-standing version of the article that you tried to remove. They are related to the newly added pieces. I highly suggest you respect the long-standing rule. Also, I am yet to hear why you disagree with the second piece even though it is from a reliable source.Kazemita1 (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

The long-standing version does not include this text, so you should not revert as you did (). I don't know what you mean about "the second piece". Restoring to the long-standing version because this gives too much emphasis in a contentious article on something that "seemed", but was not confirmed. Barca (talk) 13:09, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

The admin for this page (El_C) built a law which was unanimously accepted by all active users at the time. The law says that if a text stays in the article for more than two weeks, it counts as long standing. Not to mention you have not stated the reason for your disapproval. The source is pretty much as reliable as you can get. (Oxford University Press).--Kazemita1 (talk) 17:42, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Vanamonde93:. BarcaMac removed a piece of text I had included in the article from a reliable source (Oxford University Press). His excuse is that there is too much emphasis on "seemed". The text reads as follows. Please, advise:

According to Michael Axworthy, the attack "fitted with Masud Rajavi's earlier declaration of armed resistance".

As a side-note, the sources are divided on this issue. For example US department of State clearly finds MEK behind this bombing while Ervand Abrahamian does not. My proposal was to just state what the sources say.--Kazemita1 (talk) 04:15, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

I did present a reason for disapproval. We cannot give too much emphasis in a contentious article on matters based on "seemed", "if", and not facts. Also, the long standing version is 1 month, not two weeks. See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:People%27s_Mujahedin_of_Iran&oldid=922243555#Defining_longstanding_text_for_this_article Barca (talk) 13:39, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

You are right about the 1 month rule brother. As for your concern on not emphasizing on "seemed" I am proposing a compromise. That we only include one of the two pieces I originally added to the article, i.e. only this sentence:

According to Michael Axworthy, the attack "fitted with Masud Rajavi's earlier declaration of armed resistance".

Please, bear in mind that the other two sources, i.e. Ervand Abrahamian and Keneth Katzman are also using "iffy" words such as "whatever the truth" or things like that. I guess what I am trying to say is that nobody (on either sides) is quite sure what happened. Think about my proposal and let me know.Kazemita1 (talk) 20:05, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

• I don't have access to the source, so no wording suggestions from me. That said, a few unrelated points; fighting over which version is in the article while you work out a compromise version here is silly. The version of the text Kazemita supports is quite incomprehensible to me. And in a situation where reliable sources are unsure as to what happened, describing that uncertainly isn't just not a problem, it is required, per WP:DUE. Focus your energies on finding a compromise wording, please. Vanamonde (Talk) 07:48, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

References

1. Kenneth Katzman (2001). "Iran: The People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran". In Albert V. Benliot (ed.). Iran: Outlaw, Outcast, Or Normal Country?. Nova Publishers. p. 101. ISBN 978-1-56072-954-9.
2. "Background Information on Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations" (PDF). www.state.gov. Retrieved 10 December 2018.
3. Axworthy, Michael (2016). Revolutionary Iran: A History of the Islamic Republic. Oxford University Press. p. 214. ISBN 9780190468965. Retrieved 19 July 2019.

Kazemita1 - these sentences talk about two different things, so I don't understand your "compromise" of adding one and removing the other. Also they don't form part of the long-standing text, so why do you keep adding them back into the article without solving things here first? Barca (talk) 15:13, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I advise to take a look at admin's comments. "Barca is incorrect in their understanding of WP:DUE, specifically about situations where sources are uncertain about what happened.". Essentially, we should add more sources; exactly the opposite of what you are doing.--Kazemita1 (talk) 03:37, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

That's a distortion of what I said. I specifically said that excluding sources because they are unsure of what happened is inappropriate. Content may be excluded for several other reasons; indeed, as I said before, all of you ought to be looking for ways to trim this article, not to bloat it further. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:58, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 edit warring again, what a surprise. Ypatch (talk) 15:01, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 - you are continuing to add this without reaching any agreement here first ( ) ( ). You first said that this should be in the article because it belonged to the long-standing text, and then when you see this is not so, you add the text in the article on your own decision even though this is still being discussed here. I am in agreement that the article should not be bloated, specially with guesses that don't really mean anything else besides a guess. Barca (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

• It is a claim stated by the reliable Author in the reliable Academin source, on the other hand Vanamonde93 said before " if the author says that in their own voice, it's reliable", so it was mentioned in the article as a claim, not fact (it seemed ...). what is wrong with this well sourced content ?Saff V. (talk) 12:54, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the source or the content. No reason has yet been mentioned against inclusion of this piece by users. The size issue applies to all the text that Barca is trying to add as well.--Kazemita1 (talk) 15:51, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kazemita1: Intersting!what has been the debate over?--Saff V. (talk) 07:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Apology & inquiry

@Vanamonde93: @El C:. First of all, let me start with the fact that I am sorry for what I did a few days ago. To show good faith, I restored the article to the version that was supported by 3 editors who were "on the other side of the isle". Secondly, I want to ask both of you (mostly Vanamonde) about one of his previous statements:

"in a situation where reliable sources are unsure as to what happened, describing that uncertainly isn't just not a problem, it is required, per WP:DUE"

To give you a background, the situation Vanamonde is referring to is this section of the article where sources are divided about who actually was behind the bombing. It appears I might have misinterpreted Vanamonde's statement which was partially the reason why the whole edit warring started. Therefore, I am asking in the form of a yes or no question this time. Is it due to add the following statement to the "Hafte Tir bombing" section of the article:

According to Michael Axworthy, the attack "fitted with Masud Rajavi's earlier declaration of armed resistance".

I appreciate your response. p.s. The source for this statement is rock solid (Oxford University Press) and the statement can be checked here.Kazemita1 (talk) 11:13, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

This misunderstanding, such as it is, is probably based on a misunderstanding of what El C and I are trying to do here. We are acting in an admin capacity; we are not opining on content. What that means is; I might tell you that source X is an acceptable one for statement Y (because that is, essentially, determining whether a given edit is policy-compliant, which is what admins are supposed to do); I might tell you that excluding "biased" sources is inappropriate (because that is explaining policy); I might tell you that the article is badly organized, because similar material is being split up into different sections (that is a matter of common sense). I am not going to opine on whether a specific sentence constitutes due weight, because that would make me WP:INVOLVED. Thus; above, I said that one of the reasons that Barca was using to exclude a given source was inappropriate. That doesn't mean all reasons are inappropriate (or appropriate). What constitutes due weight is something for you to decide, by RfC if there's no agreement here. And to reiterate; the article is, at the moment, way too long, and confusingly written. I suggest all of you focus on addressing those problems, rather than adding more critical or adulatory material to the page. Vanamonde (Talk) 11:38, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kazemita1:this sentence "fitted with Masud Rajavi's earlier declaration of armed resistance" was removed because of weight issues! Am I right? As well as I am of the same mind about not to ask admin make comment on all occasions, building consequence should be done by involved users.Saff V. (talk) 12:39, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree @Vanamonde93:. Whether you like it or not, if you comment on select text inclusions then you are already involved! For example, you imply that the article is too large and one should avoid adding new text. However, you do not comment on other inclusions such as this repetitive pushing. Barca keeps pushing the text about the number of people killed in prison, even though it is mentioned a few lines above. Bear in mind that I was not against inclusion of the book publication; just against excessive details that happen to be repetitive. In my case the text I was going to add (linking MEK to Haft Tir bombing) was NOT repetitive.Kazemita1 (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Article size and organization

As I've said before, I don't intend to get INVOLVED with respect to content here; but I think I need to make a few obvious general points. First, the article is way too long. 50kb of prose is a good target; 60-70kb is not a disaster; 106kb is indicative of a serious need for pruning and/or spinning off subsidiary articles. Second, it's an organizational nightmare. The ideology section, for instance, has so many overlapping sections ("current" overlaps with "after the revolution", and the three topic-specific sections overlap with each of the earlier ones). The "Designation as X" sections are logically a part of "perception". Scholarly perception should form the basis for the entire article, and should not normally have a section to itself unless there's enough material to actually write about the historiography of the MEK (I see no evidence for that at present). I could go on; but the basis of the problem is that supporters and detractors alike have just stuffed this full of "X said Y about the MEK", which doesn't make for a coherent narrative at all. At the risk of sounding cynical, a lack of clarity in the prose doesn't help either POV, so the lot of you ought to be working on this issue. Vanamonde (Talk) 08:14, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I will try to clean up some overlapping sections. Barca (talk) 15:29, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Copy right violation

It seems that the article suffer from copy vio. While I picked up copied material form this source, I wonder if you take a look at them. Regards!--Saff V. (talk) 12:03, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

 Done. El_C 17:38, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Why extrajudicial killings

The 1988 execution has been described as extrajudicial killings while it was done based of order of Khomeini, the highest political positions in Iran and according to this source the fatwa was performed by a three-man committee be established, comprising a Shari’a judge, the prosecutor general or his assistant prosecutor, and a representative from the ministry of intelligence in each province.Any idea? Saff V. (talk) 12:39, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Mass reverts by Kazemita1

Kazemita1 - you are continuing mass reverting many edits in the article, even without respecting the long-standing text or giving any reasoning - () () ( ) () etc. @El C: this is allowed ? Barca (talk) 17:50, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

If you disagree with particular reverts, you can always revert back. Please provide substantive explanations of why you did so, here, on the article talk page. El_C 18:37, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

@BarcrMac: I see most of your recent edits, which ignited the recent edit edit wars, to be clear violation of recent restrictions. Note that you need to build consensus when making challenging edits. --Mhhossein 06:23, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 did not respect some of the long-standing text, even though I tried to discuss some of these points with him here. Now an IP has restored Kazemita1's edits which are not the long-standing text in the article (). I will adhere to the long-standing version of the article, and we can discuss here the points that Kazemita1 is edit-warring about.

For example, I will remove this "According to Michael Axworthy, the attack "fitted with Masud Rajavi's earlier declaration of armed resistance". because of Vanamonde's point about Article size and organization "full of "X said Y about the MEK", which doesn't make for a coherent narrative at all."

Also the sentence "Those who criticize the group refer to it as "a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran" in the lead section can be mixed with the previous sentence which is already about criticisms, and the thing about "support inside Iran" is already in the lead - "a decision that was viewed as treason by the vast majority of Iranians and that destroyed the MEK's appeal in its homeland." (which already has POV problems).

Also the sentence "and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years"" in the lead section is POV since the MEK attacks on the IRI are already in the next sentences - "it was involved, alongside Saddam Hussain, in Operation Mersad, Operation Forty Stars, and the 1991 nationwide uprisings." and "According to Sandra Mackey, the MEK responded by targeting key Iranian official figures for assassination: they bombed the Prime Minister's office, attacked low-ranking civil servants and members of the Revolutionary Guards, along with ordinary citizens who supported the new government. The MEK "have been careful to demonstrate their reluctance to resort to violence" and mention that violence is imposed on them."

Also the sentence "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members" is descriptive of what Rajavi's book is about, which Kazemita1 removed. The description of the book seems relative to this article.

Barca (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: sorry for bothering you, it is the obvious violation of the page's restriction. The later edits of Barca included disputed material belongs to edit war, He just mentioned his opinion and with any consequences edited the article (1, 2, 3,4), actually, revert edits!Please leave a comment, Thanks!--Saff V. (talk) 13:07, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

For choosing to perpetuate the edit war (revert revert of revert) BarcrMac is also blocked for 60 hours. El_C 14:04, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

No source

@BarcrMac: Please support your edit by inserting RS, Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 06:56, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring and longstanding text

Edit warring, even if it involves efforts to restore the longstanding text, will be responded to harshly, including with escalating blocks and article bans.

Example:

1. User X changes longstanding text.
2. User Y reverts back to the longstanding text.

<Up to now, this is allowed>

But any further reverts (starting with, to X) are now a violation of the restriction.

There is really no need to go back and fourth. Which is to say, it is prohibited to do so in this article. El_C 14:19, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

• @EmilCioran1195, Kazemita1, Saff V., BarcrMac, and Ypatch: To add to what El C said above; in recent weeks the bunch of you have shown a fundamental misunderstanding of how talk page discussion is supposed to function. Discussions here are meant to build consensus, not to devolve into continuous accusation. This means you've to make proposals, and counter-proposals, and try to find a middle ground; and if there isn't a middle ground that you believe to be policy-compliant, solicit outside opinion via an RfC. All you've done at this talk page is yell at each other, and occasionally interpreted admin comments to suit your particular position. The blocks some of you just received were for sixty hours; but if I don't see evidence that you can edit this page in collaboration with people who disagree with you, then I'm fully prepared to TBAN all of you (and I don't want to hear a single word about how someone else's conduct was worse than your own). I suggest you begin by proposing ways to a) create a reasonably logical flow in the article, and b) reduce it to a reasonable size. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:09, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

  @Vanamonde93: Why do not you see our efforts to improve the page's quality? You tell me you involve in discussions as an Admin, but when I report a personal attack or talk to you about suspicious editing, you give no clear answer (1, 2), But by reporting to others, the copyright issue appeared or the user was warned because of his bad behavior. I really don't know what was wrong with me?Saff V. (talk) 07:22, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

  @Saff V.: If I thought you were uninterested in improving the article, I would have TBANned you. I am warning you (all of you) instead only because I still think you can make worthwhile improvements. I said what the problem with your editing was, above; briefly, that you are stonewalling and complaining on the talk page rather than collaborating. That needs to change; this page is for discussing content, not behavior. Vanamonde (Talk) 07:30, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

• @El C: Please note that BarcrMac changed the long standing version here, on 4 December, which was reverted to the long-standing version by Kazemita1. I don't know how many back and forth were in between, but BarcrMac reverted again on 11 December, without substantiating his position. Needless to mention that he tried to pretend he was reverting to the longstanding version, which is clearly false (this change was made on 4 December so it was not considered as longstanding after 7 days on 11 December. This is while BarcrMac is well aware that long standing version is "1 month ago, not two weeks"!) Anyway, Please restore to the real long standing version, before this edit. The edit is objected because it is against what the cited sources are saying. --Mhhossein 03:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@El_C: This edit should be reverted for the same reason. Moreover, I don't know how many other changes were made to the long standing version without substantiation. --Mhhossein 04:10, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm not restoring anything myself. If you can substantiate (with actual specifics — not vague generalities) that a longstanding text version is due, you may restore to it yourself. El_C 06:02, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: Barca appears to have substantiated with actual specifics their edits in this talk page in the edit summaries. You, on the other hand, have not. Alex-h (talk) 14:48, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alex-h. Not all of it is explained. He is yet to provide reasons as to why he is against inclusion of some text and/or pro inclusion of repetitive matter. Take for example the following:

1. He keeps pushing the text about the number of people killed in prison, even though it is mentioned a few lines above. Bear in mind that I was not against inclusion of the book publication; just against excessive details that happen to be repetitive.

2. He keeps removing reliably sourced content (Oxford University Press) that relates MEK to Hafte Tir bombing.Kazemita1 (talk) 15:39, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

• I'm restoring one of the changes to the longstanding version. This change (which was repeated here) is not supported by the sources (see for example) nor there's consensus over it. Despite the edit summary, "Vanamonde's suggestion" is not necessarily supporting this (I see it as self interpretation of the admins' comment). I am ready to talk over it. --Mhhossein 04:03, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
  • @Every body, please note that a long standing phrase, i.e. "built around its leaders Masoud and Maryam Rajavi", was moved from the lead without building consensus. I believe it should be there since its describing in what terms the group is a cult. I am restoring to the longstanding version. --Mhhossein 15:17, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Kazemita1 is continuing edit warring () (). He revert saying that I "consented to this version of the article", but this is untrue. Barca (talk) 12:54, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

@Barca: Just take the diff between your last edit on Dec. 9th and the version I restored the article to on Dec. 13th and you will know. By the way, I left a message on your talk page asking for a friendly chat. Should I assume you are not willing to talk?Kazemita1 (talk) 13:48, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

@Saff V.: Why did you revert wholesale the IP's edits? They seemed quite uncontroversial - if not inconsequential - to me, and some of them were just fixing formatting/spacing issues. I'm afraid I think this is indicative of the "ownership" mentality of a few authors of this page. They immediately revert newcomers edits, regardless of their merits. EmilCioran1195 (talk) 12:58, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

@Kazemita1 - In your last reverts, () (), you added to the article this material from the edit war, which is not part of the long-standing text and which you have reverted (yet again) without consensus:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

@El C: - sorry for bothering you, it is the obvious violation of the page's restriction. The later edits of Kazemita1 included disputed material belongs to edit war! Please leave a comment, Thanks! Barca (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm unable to immediately tell what's what. El_C 16:15, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: - here are the diffs of Kazemita1's recent edit-warring reverts (the ones in bold happened after your warning here to stop edit-warring):

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".

1. 15:30, 13 December 2019
2. 10:52, 13 December 2019
3. 18:13, 4 December 2019
4. 17:14, 29 November 2019
5. 05:50, 29 November 2019

• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran"

1. 15:30, 13 December 2019
2. 10:52, 13 December 2019
3. 08:20, 6 December 2019
4. 18:19, 4 December 2019

Barca (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Did you try bringing this to their attention? Specifically, about these two items? El_C 23:57, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Their response to this was "@Barca: Just take the diff between your last edit on Dec. 9th and the version I restored the article to on Dec. 13th and you will know." but as you can see by the diffs this is simply continuing edit-warring. Barca (talk) 05:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Dear @El C:, I am left with no choice but to say Barca is being untruthful here. Here is Barca's last edit on December 9th, right before the edit warring started, in which he consented to the addition of the following statements:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

Please, note that he did not edit the article any further for two days after that and one would naturally think this is a sign of consent. Two days later, on Dec. 11th when me, Ypatch and Emilcioran were all blocked and could not comment on any of his edits he deleted the above mentioned statements. He is now trying to present the facts as if I cheated. To show you further evidence, here is Emilcioran's edit and Ypatche's edit -who even though were opposing my edit- all included the above mentioned statements. In other words I am trying to say there is consensus on the version of the article I restored after recovery from block. And finally this is the diff between my edit right after recovery from block and Barca's last edit on Dec. 9th that shows they are the same word for word.Kazemita1 (talk) 05:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1, You were making many reverts in single edits, some of which I agreed with, and some of which I didn't, but because they were done in single edits, they were difficult to dissect. About these two lines Barca is pointing out, I did not consent to adding this to the article nor did I give consensus, so please don't say this on my behalf. You've been removing and adding info through your self-made consensus, and you seem to still be doing this. Ypatch (talk) 14:10, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Ypatch, I do not say anything on your behalf; your edits do. You did not raise any concerns against Barca's edit on December 9th neither in the talk page nor via your edits in the article. As a matter of fact when I tried to change the article, you restored it to the version proposed by Barca. According to WP:CON, this means you either fully agreed to Barca's edit or you found his edit a good compromise. In either case, consensus is implied.--Kazemita1 (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Can you please check this? The diffs show obvious edit warring, and Kazemita1's justification for them is baffling. Barca (talk) 12:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

As an FYI, another admin investigated this matter in edit warring noticeboard per Barca's report right here.--Kazemita1 (talk) 04:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

And the admin say "that 'Joe Smith supported this version in a past dispute' surely doesn't prove that it enjoys consensus to go in right now." Because there is no consensus, I'm restoring to long-standing version (just like Mhhossein did recently. Barca (talk) 14:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I would be careful if I were you, given another admins ultimatum regarding this article:

"Edit warring, even if it involves efforts to restore the longstanding text, will be responded to harshly, including with escalating blocks and article bans."

I invite you to respond to my proposal that I had left on your talk page to find a middle ground thru discussions.--Kazemita1 (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Line break

Sigh. Although Kazemita1's contention that there is consensus for their edits seem to be tenuous, at best, BarcrMac reverting to the "longstanding version" ... "just like Mhhossein did recently" without trying to further discuss the content of the edits themselves was a mistake. A mistake for which they were blocked for 2 weeks. Key word here is substantiate. Substantiate your edits well in advance, with a focus on the content. The timeline and what constitutes longstanding text is key, also, to be sure — but this isn't a legal game where you prove what the longstanding text is and everything else stalls from there on. There needs to be, dare I say, lively discussion about why this or that is or isn't appropriate for the article. Again, please do better, everyone, and engage the content rather than the restriction rules. El_C 17:28, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: You blocked Barca for reverting to the longstanding version of the article. Didn't Mhhossein do exactly the same thing a few days ago (here and here)? Didn't Kazemita1 restore material to the article without consensus (here and here)? why wasn't he blocked for this also? Ypatch (talk) 03:52, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Because they at least attempted to substantiate by discussing the actual content — was I not clear about that? El_C 03:57, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Yes, you were clear, but didn't Barca attempted to substantiate by discussing the content here? Ypatch (talk) 19:47, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

That was ten days ago and does not seem to relate to the same series of edits. El_C 19:50, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: The edits are about these two sentences:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• ""shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

And Barca's discussion ten days ago attempted to discuss these two edits:

• "Also the sentence "and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years"" in the lead section is POV since the MEK attacks on the IRI are already in the next sentences - "it was involved, alongside Saddam Hussain, in Operation Mersad, Operation Forty Stars, and the 1991 nationwide uprisings." and "According to Sandra Mackey, the MEK responded by targeting key Iranian official figures for assassination: they bombed the Prime Minister's office, attacked low-ranking civil servants and members of the Revolutionary Guards, along with ordinary citizens who supported the new government. The MEK "have been careful to demonstrate their reluctance to resort to violence" and mention that violence is imposed on them.""

• "Also the sentence "Those who criticize the group refer to it as "a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran" in the lead section can be mixed with the previous sentence which is already about criticisms, and the thing about "support inside Iran" is already in the lead - "a decision that was viewed as treason by the vast majority of Iranians and that destroyed the MEK's appeal in its homeland." (which already has POV problems)."

Did I miss something? Ypatch (talk) 20:56, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

That still did not address the latest series of edits, because these were after. Anyway, the point is that that was ten days ago, in another section. More recently, they could have said (nay, should have said): to summarize my argument from a week ago, your latest edits failed to fulfill my expectations in the following ways . But instead of saying anything (at all) about the content, they just went on about the longstanding text over and over. Which is just not good enough. The adversarial fixation about the restrictions in unhealthy to the article. And when it is coupled with an absence of discussion about content, one which also leads to unsubstantiated reverts, actually disruptive. El_C 21:25, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: I agree that adversarial fixation is not a good approach, but I do see Barca discussing the two sentences in question. On the other hand, after we all recently got blocked, Kazemita1 put back those two sentences without discussing in this talk page, which isn't a good approach either. Why wasn't he blocked? Ypatch (talk) 01:50, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Because it didn't strike me as constituting edit warring. Perhaps that was a mistake. El_C 15:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Kazemita1 is reverting edits that formed part of the recent edit warring without consensus again: . Can you please respond about this? Ypatch (talk) 14:53, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I can't tell what those are reverts of, if they are reverts at all — because your report is too terse. No links to any substantive objections on your part, either. That is not how this is supposed to work. You need to do better, Ypatch. If you can't bother to expand and address (including the editor in question themselves!) the points under contention, I would rather you not ping me at all. El_C 15:16, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: In this edit, Kazemita1 removed the following:

• "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members.

This was previously removed by Kazemita in this edit, this edit, this edit, this edit, this edit, and this edit. That sentence is also currently being debated in the Talk page discussion "Excessive information about a book", for which no consensus has been determined yet.

Also in this edit, Kazemita1 removed the following:

• "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there..

This was previously removed by Kazemita in this edit, this edit, and this edit. That sentence is also currently being debated in the Talk page discussion "Why it would be wrong to remove those two sentences", for which no consensus has been determined yet. Ypatch (talk) 16:50, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 blocked for 2 weeks for inserting and reinserting text that was objected to. Even as a compromise, consensus for these edits ought to have been secured (again, use dispute resolution and accompanying requests toward that end). Participants should, again, note that the time for being bold is long passed. Making one's proposals here on the article talk page first is the recommended course of action. Apply these to the article only when you are relatively confident the edits enjoy consensus and that they do not constitute edit warring (restoring edits that were previously reverted). While a discussion commences, the longstanding text ought to stay in place. We already agreed to define what it is, generally (about one month of agreement, or at least WP:SILENCE). Please make sure you prove what it is, for specific edits, because that is often not easy to assess (for me, at least). El_C 17:24, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Per your advice that "While a discussion commences, the longstanding text ought to stay in place", I am requesting your permission to restore the sentence that Kazemita1 removed from the article:

• "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there..

That sentence was added to the article over a month ago (I cannot find the exact date, but in this diff on October 19th shows that info was already in the article, which makes it part of the long-standing text), and is being discussed in the Talk page discussion here. Thanks for letting me know if that's ok. Ypatch (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

@El C: Can you please answer my previous post? I don't want to get blocked for what to me looks like following the article's restrictions. Ypatch (talk) 16:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I thought it was obvious that, at this point in time, you need to substantiate your objection to that (any!) change rather than simply seek to blindly revert on account of an edit being deemed longstanding text. No? Please don't make me write such a qualification every time. Substantiate in advance, please! El_C 17:32, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Why it would be wrong to remove those two sentences

@EmilCioran1195, Saff V., BarcrMac, Ypatch, and Mhhossein:. In what follows I will be addressing the reason why these two sentences have a natural place in the article:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

Now see what the source says for the first sentence:

The organization gained a new life in exile, founding the National Council of Resistance of Iran and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years"

Essentially, by a new life in exile, it is not endorsing the group's activity; it is actually saying they continued their terrorst activity. I understand some people might have sympathy with the group, but we have to be faithful to the source. If we remove the part that Barca removed, i.e. and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years" we will be changing the source.

As for the second sentence, this is from the Guardian source that is also used a few lines later to describe what proponents of the group say:

critics of the group in recent years (such as experts, various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW, and the governments of the United States and France have described it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes. Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there

Guardian tried to explain each side believes about this group. Naturally, you would want both voices heard. By removing the voice of critics you are putting the article out of balance.--Kazemita1 (talk) 03:13, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

"shadowy outfit" seems a bit much. Also inaccurate, they crave publicity and stage mass events. EmilCioran1195 (talk) 04:31, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, I mean it is from the same source that says "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran". It is attributing both sides. --Kazemita1 (talk) 06:45, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

• @Kazemita1: Thanks for attempting to resolve the issues via TP discussion, though I believe you could express the comments in a more accurate manner. I am really puzzled why you are referring to "critics of the group in recent years (such as experts,..." as being supported by reliable sources. Also, please link to the sources when ever you write "source" (or at least do it on the first usage please.) Anyway, you are suggesting to add two sentences to the lead and here's my opinion; the first one is really missing since it fits the time line of the MEK's activity in terms of saying their civil attacks were not stopped after their departure from Iran.

As for the second one, I partially agree since the second portion, i.e. "and cult-like attributes" is already included in a more accurate manner (also see this comment). The first portion of the sentence, i.e. "shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran", merits inclusion however, specially because the Guardian source is already used to reflect the voice of the group's supporters, so why not using it to show what the critics think? --Mhhossein 10:28, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

We need to take stuff out of this article, not fill it with more POV. This was suggested by Vanamonde here. I'm against adding more POV. We should keep to clear and major points only, and these two sentences don't add anything that isn't already in the article. Ypatch (talk) 19:49, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I am against adding POV to the lead, too. So, let's remove the POVish phrase "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there." It is the POV of "Those who back the MEK", so should be removed because of being a POV. Also, the rest of your comment, i.e. "these two sentences don't add anything that isn't already in the article", is a self made argument which certainly is not applicable here. Lead should contain the key points of the article. MEK's reception is one of them, I think. --Mhhossein 20:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

What do these sentences add to isn't in the article already? Until this is clearly explained, I'm against adding this to the article. Alex-h (talk) 11:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Alex, please note that these sentences are in the middle of a paragraph taken from a single source. As mentioned by Mhhossein, we can of course remove the previous sentence from the same source as well. For example, we could remove both proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" as well as "shadowy outfit". In other words you cannot remove a negative comment made by an author and leave the positive one only. You either leave both or remove both. I think Emilcioran's approach was rather towards neutrality. He suggested we balance it by leaving one negative point and one positive point.--Kazemita1 (talk) 11:57, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

That same Guardian source says "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes, which is something we have in the lead of the article already. We either include what "critics" and "supporters" say, or neither (I would lean towards neither to clean up the article of POV). Ypatch (talk) 17:17, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

MEK being described as cult is not what only "critics" do. Many experts and scholarly works have said the group is a cult. --Mhhossein 06:45, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

@Ypatch when you wrote "which is something we have in the lead of the article already" you have to provide duplicated material, just mentioning "we have in the lead of the article already" is not enough. I agree with picking up "shadowy outfit" which doesn't bring specific info into the article however I aginst to remove "little support inside Iran" as brilliant keywords have to be included into the lead.Saff V. (talk) 07:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that cherry picking which POVs are removed and which remain is the best way to go here. We either work towards removing most of the POV claims, or none at all. We can't pick and choose which ones we like and which ones we don't like since that's a form of POV pushing in of itself. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. So, in light of that fact (that there should be no cherry picking), are you for or against leaving the statements made by the Guardian article?Kazemita1 (talk) 21:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

We either work towards removing most of the POV claims, or none at all. If we remove the Guardian POV statements in favor and against the MEK, then the allegations in the lede that the MEK is a cult needs to be removed as well. In a similar example, there are countless sources that describe the Trump administration as a "cult", yet you won't find the word "cult" on its Wiki article; that's because that article is better monitored than this one is. Similarly, we should aim to include mostly factual points (the MEK being a "cult" is not factual, despite what some people would want others to believe). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:52, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

@Stefka Bulgaria: Please don't repeat that old comparison between this article and that of Donald Trump, the latter being a BLP (your comment was responded multiple months ago). I can't figure out on what basis are you asking for removal of something which is backed by "Many experts, various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW, and the governments of the United States and France"? Please make a clear response to this question without mixing this with irrelevant topics: Do you have any fair and substantiated objections against removing the POVs (both from the supporters and the critics) from the Guardian? --Mhhossein 13:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

On the basis of POV pushing, which the cult allegations are, as the Guardian article so eloquently put it:

"Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes, condemned to die out at the obscure base in Albania because of its enforced celibacy rules."

"But for its backers, which include many politicians and, notably, members of Donald Trump’s inner circle, the MEK are tireless fighters for a free and democratic Iran who could potentially become the country’s next government."

That is POV in favor, and against it. If we remove one side's POV, then we also need to remove the other side's POV. Removing one side and leaving the other is POV pushing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 14:44, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Look, "Many experts, various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW, and the governments of the United States and France" and "critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years" are describing MEK as being cult. This is no longer a simple POV, I think, and the Guardian is not what gonna be the criteria for judgement here. Being a cult is already supported by many reliable sources other than the Guardian. --Mhhossein 06:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

This is the sentence in the lede that's disputed:

• "Many experts, various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW, and the governments of the United States and France have described it as a cult built around its leaders, Massoud and Maryam Rajavi."

And this is what those sources say:

• " The M.E.K., which professes an eccentric variant of Islam, has been characterized by many experts as resembling a cult." The quote speaks for itself: has been charaterized as resembling a cult (this does not support the statement currently in the lede).
• HRW doesn't even describe it as a cult (This does not support the statement currently in the lede, and HRW should be removed unless there is a substantiated reason not to).
• "French Foreign Ministry spokesman Romain Nadal criticized the People’s Mujahedeen of Iran, or Mujahedeen-e-Khalq, for “its violent and non-democratic inspirations,” ″cult nature” and “intense campaign of influence and disinformation.” This is the statement of of Nadal who "criticized the People’s Mujahedeen of Iran" for its "cult nature" (also this does not support the statement currently in the lede).
• "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes, condemned to die out at the obscure base in Albania because of its enforced celibacy rules." This statement also refers that this is refers to "critics" of the group (which also does not support the statement currently in the lede).

A BBC source used later in the article presents both sides of the argument:

"One colonel I spoke to, who had daily contact with the MEK leadership for six months in 2004, said that the organisation was a cult, and that some of the members who wanted to get out had to run away... And yet another officer, who was there at precisely the same time and is now a retired general ... "Cult? How about admirably focused group?" he says. "And I never heard of anyone being held against their will."

There is a debate forth and against this (forth by critics, and against by supporters). Adding either side is POV pushing, and the proposal here is to clean the article from POV pushing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:01, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 removed ""Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there", but the part about those critical of the MEK describing it as a cult was kept. We should restore the long-standing version until we figure out if we'll keep or remove both support and criticisms in the lead. Ypatch (talk) 18:01, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

First of all, there are plenty of many other sources calling the group a Cult. Some even call them "totalitarian cult". When assessing the POVs, one has to take the weight of each POV into consideration. "One colonel", whom we don't know, is never going to be as weighty as "many experts" and "scholarly works". By the way, there's no much different between MEK being described as "resembling" cult and 'being' a cult, in light of many other reliable and neutral sources saying they are cult. There is an illusion here; MEK being a cult is not merely an accusation by the group's critics, rather many scholars, politicians and experts are saying that. --Mhhossein 08:56, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

You are citing the Guardian, then why are you ignoring this infamous long-read by the Guardian saying MEK is "Widely regarded as a cult"! Also, a quick search in books brings you good results. For instance, see this book by Routledge saying MEK finally turned into a "destructive cult". --Mhhossein 09:15, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Mhhossein: i have analyzed the sources supporting the statement in the lede, and described why they don't support the statement as is. I have also showed how major press, such as the BBC and Guardian, describe critics referring to the MEK as having "Cult-like attributes", and how supporters dismiss those claims. In other words, if you want to make a case that the MEK is referred to objectively as a "cult", then you need to provide several reliable sources that say the MEK is objectively a "cult". So far, you've provided a chapter in a book written by a MEK defector and an article by www.middleeasteye.net, which is not enough to objectively render any political group as a "cult". Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:04, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

And I showed how flawed your analysis was. You are cherry picking the sources to show there's no source saying MEK is a cult! this infamous long-read by the Guardian saying MEK is "Widely regarded as a cult"! The RAND report dedicates a whole section on "MEK as a Cult" and it cites HRW as having the same description (see p. 69). The report further proves that MEK is a cult:

"MeK leaders and supporters vigorously deny that the MeK is a cult. They allege that former MeK members and critics of the MeK are either Iranian agents or their dupes. However, interviews with U.S. military and civilian officials, information voluntarily furnished by former MeK members at the ARC, and visits to Camp Ashraf suggest that these denials are not credible. The cult characteristics described in this appendix have been widely reported by former MeK members and by Human Rights Watch. They have also been substantiated, at least in part, by interviews with JIATF-Ashraf officers and by information volunteered by former MeK members at the ARC.

There are plenty of other sources saying the same thing, some of them are already used in "designation as a cult". --Mhhossein 15:18, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Hafte Tir bombing

As explained in the article, MEK never admitted to conducting this bombing. As a result, sources are divided on whether MEK was behind this bombing or not. Currently, the content of this section leans toward the sources that deny MEK involvement. @EmilCioran1195, Saff V., BarcrMac, Ypatch, and Mhhossein: Do you find it a good compromise to add one sentence from sources such as the following, that connects the bombing with MEK? And to address the size issue that was brought up by Vanamonde we can perhaps remove "the shadowy outfit" of MEK from the lead as suggested by Emilcioran.

Axworthy, Michael (2016). Revolutionary Iran: A History of the Islamic Republic. Oxford University Press. p. 214. ISBN 9780190468965.--Kazemita1 (talk) 03:20, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Please note that, As discussed here before, it was concluded that "The overall historiography may be used to construct the narrative, from all sources — but newer, more updated ones ought to be the focal point. The overarching description should follow that".Saff V. (talk) 09:20, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

There is already a Misplaced Pages article on the Hafte Tir Bombing that describes this incident in detail. If we're trying to clean up this article, then a mention that the IRI blamed the MEK for this event should be enough. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

If I understand it correctly you recommend that we remove all the sources in this section; including the ones that deny MEK involvement.--Kazemita1 (talk) 21:11, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that this can be reduced to one or two sentences since there's already a Misplaced Pages article about this. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I see your point, but please note the same is true about 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners. We have one full section even (lengthier that Hafte Tir bombing) dedicated to it in the article, yet the topic has a separate Misplaced Pages page. I think, in here we are discussing ways to fine-tune the article with little change due to the contentious nature of this topic. That said, you are more than welcome to open a new discussion for trimming all sections that have a separate Wiki article.--Kazemita1 (talk) 14:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 put back into the article that "According to Michael Axworthy, the attack "fitted with Masud Rajavi's earlier declaration of armed resistance". Adding such observations of an author gives the false impression that there is some kind of evidence that the MEK carried out this attack, but there isn't any evidence. The sources only say that the MEK is accused of this bombing, and that the MEK denied the charges. That is all that we should have in this section, and should be restored to the long standing version for that reason. Ypatch (talk) 17:30, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Excessive information about a book

This one is rather minor, but I figured in the interest of trimming the article, I open the discussion for it. In this section of the article the details of a tragedy is explained. However, when describing Maryam Rajavi's book there is repetitive content. My sugestion is to change this sentence:

In 2019, Maryam Rajavi, released a book named "Crime Against Humanity". The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members.

to the following

In 2019, Maryam Rajavi, released a book named "Crime Against Humanity" on this topice.

This is in light of the fact that the exact number of people killed is already mentioned a few lines above.

As Human rights organizations estimates, The number of those executed remains a point of contention, with the numbers ranging between 1,400 and 30,000 including women and children.

--Kazemita1 (talk) 07:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

That's fair enough, we don't need to repeat the toll more than necessary. Your suggestion describes the book in a good manner. --Mhhossein 06:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

It is really essential to prevent inserting duplicated material. Why should we get the reader bored in this way?Saff V. (talk) 07:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

That sentence is about Rajavi's book. What Rajavi's book is about doesn't seem to be duplicated anywhere else in the article, right? If you want to start cleaning up POV, how about the Fund Raising section, which is made up of 4 subsections which, considering the length of the article, really should not be. Or Human rights record and Allegations of sexual abuse, which are the same thing, right? Or Ideological revolution and women's rights which has a lot of excruciating details about a marriage? How about starting with those? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:15, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Since Stefka Bulgaria has drawn attention to that section; it is critically important that the "ideology" section only contain material the relevance of which has been established by reliable sources. In other words, sources need to have stated clearly that the details of that marriage are relevant to the "Ideological revolution and women's rights" theme in the MEK's ideology. Otherwise, the content more likely belongs in the biographies of the individuals mentioned. Whether this is the case, I leave for all of you to determine. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Ervand Abrahamian discusses the marriage in the ideological revolution section of his book. And editors from both sides of the isle have relied on this academic book.Kazemita1 (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Everybody can see that each word of the ideological revolution section is the result of discussion under the control of Admin. It is better not to mix topics with each other! The disputed sentence "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members" is same as "As Human rights organizations estimates, The number of those executed remains a point of contention, with the numbers ranging between 1,400 and 30,000 ..." obviously!Saff V. (talk) 07:00, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Nobody's saying we shouldn't use the Abrahamian book, the argument is whether so much excruciating detail is needed (as in the other sections I mentioned). For Rajavi's book, mentioning what the book says doesn't seem excessive to me, but if editors are suggesting it needs to be removed, then the same criteria should apply to other sections, like the Women's Rights and Ideological Revolution where there is indeed excessive detailing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:00, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I think no one is asking for removal of the sentence on the rajavi's book. Rather, the sentence is just repeating the toll which should be modified so that the WP:UNDUE issue is resolved. We don't need two sentences almost the same thing. We can write that the book is on the executions without adding unnecessary details. @Vanamonde93: You can find in archive the discussions regarding the relationships between that marriage and the ideological revolution. --Mhhossein 13:43, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Kazemita1 asked for the removal of the sentence on Rajavi's book (one sentence is about what Rajavi's book is about, the other is about what other sources speculate the death tolls are). In fact, Kazemita1 seems to have removed that information, along with making several other reverts that are currently discussed here without any given consensus. Is anyone going to do anything about that? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 14:48, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

References

1. "Trump allies' visit throws light on secretive Iranian opposition group".
2. "Trump allies' visit throws light on secretive Iranian opposition group".

No one dares edit this article at the moment, we just get banned at the whim of a random passing admin. Not worth it. EmilCioran1195 (talk) 11:26, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Excessive information a marriage/divorce

In light that Kazemita1 (with Mhhossein's support) has removed from the mainspace "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members." on the basis that this is "excessive information", then we should treat other problematic sections under the same criteria, starting with the section "Ideological revolution and women's rights".

I propose that the following paragraph:

"On 27 January 1985, Rajavi appointed Maryam Azodanlu as his co-equal leader. The announcement, stated that this would give women equal say within the organization and thereby 'would launch a great ideological revolution within Mojahedin, the Iranian public and the whole Muslim World'. The MEK is "known for its female-led military units". Five weeks later, the MEK announced that its Politburo and Central Committee had asked Rajavi and Azondalu, who was already married, to marry one another to deepen and pave the way for the "ideological revolution. At the time Maryam Azodanlu was known as only the younger sister of a veteran member, and the wife of Mehdi Abrishamchi. According to the announcement, Maryam Azodanlu and Mehdi Abrishamchi had recently divorced in order to facilitate this 'great revolution'. As a result, the marriage further isolated the Mojahedin and also upset some members of the organization. This was mainly because, the middle class would look at this marriage as an indecent act which to them resembled wife-swapping. (especially when Abrishamchi declared his own marriage to Musa Khiabani's younger sister). The fact that it involved women with young children and the wives of close friends was considered a taboo in traditional Iranian culture. The effect of this incident on secularists and modern intelligentsia was equally outrageous as it dragged a private matter into the public arena. Many criticized Maryam Azodanlu's giving up her own maiden name (something most Iranian women did not do and she herself had not done in her previous marriage). They would question whether this was in line with her claims of being a staunch feminist."

Be resumed into the following:

""On January 27, 1985, Rajavi announced he had appointed Maryam Azodanlu to be his "co-equal leader" with the intent that this action would give women an equal voice within the MEK. Five weeks later, the MEK announced that its Politburo and Central Committee had asked Rajavi and Azondalu, who was already married, to marry one another to deepen the "ideological revolution. The announcement, stated that this would give women equal say within the organization and thereby 'would launch a great ideological revolution within Mojahedin, the Iranian public and the whole Muslim World'. The MEK is "known for its female-led military units".

My reasoning for reducing this is because there is nothing in the removed sentences that tells us more about the MEK's "Ideological revolution and women's rights" (which is what this section is about). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:15, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree. There is an attempt to summarise some parts of this article while other parts have been inflated. This is one of the parts that is inflated, and it can be summarised while retaining the main occurrences. Ypatch (talk) 17:32, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

How many times do we have to discuss this topic and all its aspects? Isn't 4 months enough? For instance, summarizing this paragraph is inappropriate because, according to the Admin's comment, some issues become vague and incomprehensible.Saff V. (talk) 07:14, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

• I feel like being GAMEd by Stefka Bulgaria. He is making a false comparison between the removal of excessive mention of death tolls and what he finds to be "excessive information a marriage/divorce". The current wording of the article, i.e. "In 2019, Maryam Rajavi, released a book named "Crime Against Humanity" on this topic," is sufficiently describing the Rjavi's book with no excessive details on the toll. Can you stop mixing irrelevant things please? If you have objections with what we discussed some months ago, you need to have fair reasoning on why, for instance, Rajavi and Abrishamchi's divorce should not be here (this divorce needs to be mentioned since it is describing what steps were taken for the ideological revolution.) Also, the impact of the divorce-marriage and its reception by others have to be mentioned, too. We discussed all of these things earlier and you can find them in archive. --Mhhossein 09:36, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Mhhossein, you may have missed Vanamonde's suggestion that "sources need to have stated clearly that the details of that marriage are relevant to the "Ideological revolution and women's rights" theme in the MEK's ideology. Otherwise, the content more likely belongs in the biographies of the individuals mentioned". I have presented my case why this needs trimming, and I have also presented a proposed text. I ask that, in the spirit of collaboration, you or Saff V. do the same. Thank you. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:55, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

@Stefka Bulgaria and you are going to show how sources stated that the details of that marriage are relevant to the "Ideological revolution and women's rights" theme in the MEK's ideology by SUMMARIZING the paragraph! Aren't you? During that disscussion we brought sources which they explain the relationship between that material and that divorce and marriage cleary, even you suggested text we discussed it. Maybe user:Vanamonde93 is not aware of that discussion but User:El C can give comment.Saff V. (talk) 11:27, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm trying to be optimistic and AGF. However, the more I look the more I think something is going wrong with Stefka Bulgaria's suggestions. Looking at Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran/Archive 17#Ideological revolution and women's rights, which contains the details of our discussion where Stefka Bulgaria was involved, it appears he is again making the previous mistakes. For instance, I already asked him why he was suggesting to remove the portion on divorce, but he failed to respond to my query. This concern was also mentioned by User:El C when he said "No mention of "divorce" (really? "already married"?) and Abrahamian's exposition on how this was viewed in Iranian society is absent". In that discussion, Stefka Bulgaria was warned against by El C against Gaming the system and being tendentious. He was also told that "stripping the content bare to the point that it is no longer recognizable as such" is different from being "concise". Other users were also making objection against his suggestion, and Stefka Bulgrai is here again asking almost the same thing! What's it if it is not an attempt at gaming the system? Comments by @El C: is welcomed. --Mhhossein 15:07, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Excessive information about "Fundraising"

In the quest for cleaning up unnecessary long sections in the article, the section Fund raising is currently made up of 4 subsections that describe MEK fundraising in 4 different countries. That seems needlessly excessive. I propose we merge the 4 subsections into a single section describing the main, verified by reliable sources, and relevant points. Much of it is based on claims by Nejat Society, which seems more propaganda-oriented that factual evidence. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:12, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

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