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Anatomy of a "Cut-and-Paste Job"

The essential problem with Cberlet's role, in editing the LaRouche articles, is that he is not participating as a Misplaced Pages editor, but to promote his own theories -- or, to use his words, "documenting my claims that LaRouche is a fascist, antisemitic, racist, sexist, homophobic, crackpot, and crook."

Here is the complete passage from LaRouche's speech, as quoted in EIR:

1. "We have another purpose in fighting AIDS, for our fighting AIDS--for our inducing people to do what they should have done anyway without our speaking a word. Government agencies should have done this. There should be no issue! But government agencies didn't! That's the issue. Why didn't they? Because of a cultural paradigm shift. They did not want, on the one hand, to estrange the votes of a bunch of faggots and cocaine sniffers, the organized gay lobby, as it's called in the United States. (I don't know why they're "gay," they're the most miserable creatures I ever saw! The socalled gay lobby, 8% of the population, the adult electorate; the drug users. There are 20 million cocaine sniffers in the United States, at least. Of course it does affect their mind; it affects the way they vote! They ought to be taxed 100% of their income, on the basis of not having earned it, and on the basis of the fact that we need the money to fight the effects of their habit.
2. "But the issue, the deeper issue, is that the government and the people, the general electorate, in terms of the political machines of this country, have no morality. Here is a question, which was settled in the middle of the 14th century and afterward -- the question of public sanitation on issues of epidemic and pandemic disease. Every government in the world is well-informed of that and the penalties of not invoking that policy. We have statutes on the books of the federal government, on the state and local level throughout the country, on this matter. The decision to be made on AIDS should have been automatic. Anybody who did not make that decision acted in defiance of the law, and should be accountable for any person infected! That is, if you're infected, if a member of your family dies of AIDS or is infected with AIDS, you should be able to sue members of the federal government, personally, for millions of dollars in each case -- damages! Because it was their negligence, willful negligence, in defiance of statutes, which caused this; not the law -- the law was fine! If they had followed the law, your friend wouldn't have been infected with AIDS.
3. "What was the problem? The problem was the cultural paradigm shift. If someone comes up and says, "Yeah, but you can't interfere with the civil rights of an AIDS victim" -- what the devil is this? You can't interfere with an AIDS victim killing hundreds of people, by spreading the disease to hundreds of people, which will kill them, during the period before he himself dies? So therefore, should we allow people with guns to go out and shoot people as they choose? Isn't that a matter of the civil rights of gun carriers? Or, if you've got an ax -- if you can't aim too well, and just have an ax or a broad sword -- shouldn't we allow people with broad swords and axes to go out and kill people indiscrimately as they choose, as a matter of their civil rights?
4. "Where did this nonsense come from? Oh, we don’t want to offend the gays! Gays are sensitive to their civil rights; this will lead to discrimination against gays!
5. "They’re already beating up gays with baseball bats around the country! Children are going to playgrounds, they go in with baseball bats, and they find one of these gays there, pederasts, trying to recruit children, and they take their baseball bats and they beat them up pretty bad. They’ll kill one sooner or later. In Chicago, they’re beating up gays that are hanging around certain schools, pederasts; children go out with baseball bats and beat them up -- which is perfectly moral; they have the civil right to do that! It’s a matter of children’s civil rights!"

LaRouche is making the point that if public health officials cannot intervene to prevent someone from transmitting AIDS through sexual contact, because transmitting AIDS through sexual contact is considered a "civil right," then the same illogic could be used to justify all sorts of violent crimes, even those perpetrated by homophobes. However, Berlet initially quoted only the last two paragraphs, in order to suggest that LaRouche was in fact endorsing violent crimes perpetrated by homophobes. To to make certain that the Misplaced Pages reader would arrive at that mistaken conclusion, Berlet added his own explanation: "He has called for draconian measures against persons with AIDS, and scoffed at civil liberties and civil rights concerns, writing that people who physically attack gay people are merely exercising their civil rights." This is, as I hope other editors can see by looking at the context, a deliberate misrepresentation. SlimVirgin came obsequiously to Cberlet's defense ("You asked him for the context of the gay quote, which he gave." In fact, he didn't. He gave a citation, so that I could laboriously look it up and transcribe it.) Later, Berlet attempted to salvage the situation by adding yet another out-of-context paragraph, the first one, without providing a (...) to indicated that he had omitted the second one. --HK 01:39, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of context problems... HK, I think it was you who added this line into the article:

LaRouche seemed later to modify his views. In a town meeting which was webcast on December 11, 1999, LaRouche said:

And you go on to quote two paragraphs from LL. But you've cut off the sentences that start the first paragraph:

Don't let them play one against the other. Like this question of so-called homosexuality.

LaRouche's phrase so-called homosexuality implies that he does not believe such a condition exists. When the page protection is lifted we need to add the full quote to give it the proper context, which seems to me to show that LaRouche has not modified his views at all. -Willmcw 20:51, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I tried to remove that line from the article, but my edits were being reverted by SlimVirgin, seemingly within seconds, so take another look at the page history. With respect to the two paragraphs you mention, what LaRouche is saying is that he does not believe that the issue of homosexuality is relevant to the discussion of AIDS. This is abundantly clear from the rest of the quote. You seem to have a bit of difficulty, Willmcw, in understanding LaROuche, because the significance of CBerlet's manipulation of the other quote seems to elude you. --HK 15:42, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it does get confusing when many hands are working at once. I'm not sure which line you are referring to. I recommend that the entire quotation be dropped. I don't see what modification of views it is suppoed to represent. I also suggest that we cut the quotes in the LaRouche & Gays section down to two, maybe a paragraph each. More than that is just piling on. This article is way too long already. We can move the others over to wikisource. Regarding the above quotation- the added material, which includes lines like

" They did not want, on the one hand, to estrange the votes of a bunch of faggots and cocaine sniffers, the organized gay lobby, as it's called in the United States."

hardly makes LaRouche appear to be indifferent to gays. Again, adding more material does not change the context, it only reinforces the message that LaRouche makes homophobic remarks. All we need is one or two choice sentences as examples for the article, not several long rants. More is not better. Cheers, -Willmcw 21:48, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Context versus quotation

While it is useful for us editors to review the context of a direct quotation, this Misplaced Pages article is not a compendium of source material. Quotes that are more than a short paragraph in length belong on Wikisource. If the context modifies the meaning, than it can be summarized. In the case of the Baseball bats & gays quote, I suggest that it can be boiled down like this:

In a speech printed in EIR on the topic of fighting AIDS, LaRouche said:

They’re already beating up gays with baseball bats around the country! Children are going to playgrounds, they go in with baseball bats, and they find one of these gays there, pederasts, trying to recruit children, and they take their baseball bats and they beat them up pretty bad. They’ll kill one sooner or later. In Chicago, they’re beating up gays that are hanging around certain schools, pederasts; children go out with baseball bats and beat them up -- which is perfectly moral; they have the civil right to do that! It’s a matter of children’s civil rights!
:citation

I don't think it's necessary to include hundred of words just to show that he has endorsed violence against gays. -Willmcw 02:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think using just the short quote arguably makes it look even worse. The quote is fine as it is, in my view. It was two paras; Herschel provided a third, so now it's three. The extra paras he's provided today don't change the meaning. Will, if you want to change it back to just that one para that you suggest, it's fine by me so long as we reach an agreement and all stick to it. Cberlet, please use ellipsis (...) if you're leaving words out or skipping to another paragraph just for clarification purposes. Herschel, I know what the quote meant. The context you provide doesn't change the meaning. And stop insulting me. What with your insults to Cberlet, your use of his name when asked not to, your insults of me, your promotion of Lyndon LaRouche, and your attempts to insert pro-LaRouche material into Chip Berlet and Dennis King which are not "closely related" articles, anyone who wants to mount an ArbCom case against you will not be short of material. SlimVirgin 02:32, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Leaving off the ellipses in that one paragrpah was not intentional. Just a typo. I have used ellipses in the past. I think HK is being unfair and misrepresenting what has happened here. I posted the vast majority of the lengthy LaRouche quotes along with cites; said I would post more along with actual image files of the pages at the PRA website on Monday (today as I write this); and offered to post the tiny fragment I missed from one article in my first scan that now HK is claiming he has been forced to "laboriously look...up and transcribe." This all stems from the series of personal attacks on me by HK whereby he has falsely charged me with what is called in journalism "cooking quotes." I have demonstrated that the quotes I posted are real, provided the citations, and posted lengthy excerpts to put them in context. I think that most reasonable people would agree with what Willmcw has posted above. As promised, here are the pages where I posted further documentation. Click on the links to see the image files and longer quotes.

Illionis Attorney General's office letter Full cites to articles and editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times

Creating a Republican Labor Party (democracy quote) antigay quote in LaRouchite Illinois Tribunal --Cberlet 02:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Chip. As far as I'm concerned, you've done more than enough. You and Will can decide how much of the quote to use. I would like to see the two paras you first inserted, or the three that are currently there, but if you and Will want just one, that's fine too. What other issues are there to sort out here?

Herschel, I feel you and Weed need to stop editing these pages, because this is causing a lot of disruption and unnecessary work. If we were to ask the ArbCom, I believe they would agree and would impose it on you, because they were only one vote short of that before, the ArbCom has changed quite significantly since then; and you have caused quite a bit of disruption since that time. For this reason, I'm asking you to impose the restriction on yourselves voluntarily. I'm wondering whether you could find another editor to, as it were, look out for LaRouche's interests on your behalf, but without actually being a LaRouche member or supporter. Would that work for you, assuming we could find someone? I'm making this proposal as an attempt at dispute resolution, which all parties are required to do before approaching the ArbCom. SlimVirgin 03:00, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

I goofed. Here are the actual links and topics:

Illinois Attorney General's office letter

Full cites to articles and editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times

Creating a Republican Labor Party (democracy quote)

Antigay quote in LaRouchite Illinois Tribunal, July 7, 1986, editorial page

--Cberlet 02:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Those links make the other quotes fine by me too. Also Herschel, I'm correcting what I wrote above: when I suggested "an editor to look out for LaRouche's interests," I meant to say Misplaced Pages's interests and the NPOV policy, and to make sure that what is written is accurate, instead of you doing it. It could be an editor of your choice, so long as that person agrees (obviously) and isn't associated with the LaRouche organization. SlimVirgin 05:04, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Herschel and Weed, you could ask for an advocate to take your place on the LaRouche-related pages you agree not to edit. This isn't the same as mediation where a compromise is sought between editors. This is asking for someone to represent your views and probably wouldn't take long to organize. More information can be found at Misplaced Pages:AMA Requests for Assistance and there are a list of editors willing to be advocates at Misplaced Pages:AMA Member Statements. I assume you could approach one of them directly. Please think about it. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 05:30, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

The idea of having an ombudsman of sorts for these pages is in fact rather attractive to me, since I work full time and it is very burdensome to attempt to respond to the hundreds of edits which SlimVirgin in particular is making. However, I think the idea is problematic, because the job would require very extensive knowledge of the history of LaRouche and his ideas, and as Snowspinner has pointed out, there are no neutral sources.

Additionally, for the idea to work, SlimVirgin and CBerlet, whose POV is every bit as partisan as mine, would necessarily also have to agree to withdraw.

Frankly, I was satisfied, at the conclusion of the last round of POV wars with AndyL, that the LaRouche articles had attained NPOV status. It might be useful for editors to go back and look at the mid-October versions. --HK 15:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The October version was overwhelmingly biased in favor of LaRouche, especially the links. We have invested far too much time in a collective process to go backward. HK is now editing the Lyndon LaRouche page to insert pro-LaRouche material. I will agree to focus only on editing this page as a collaborative effort if HK and Weed agree to stop inserting pro-LaRouche material on other pages until we reach an NPOV point on this page.--Cberlet 16:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Herschel, I didn't suggest an obmudsman. You already had that with Snowspinner and it didn't work. The idea of mediation in Misplaced Pages is to find a compromise between the two parties. That can't work in the case of material published by the LaRouche organization, or edits made without references by LaRouche supporters, because if something is false, it's false. An arrangement only to insert 50 per cent of it is nonsense. That's why all the LaRouche articles read so badly. I suggested that you appoint an advocate for yourself, which is a different proposition. But as you've turned it down on the grounds that no one, in your view, is knowledgeable enough, and no one is neutral, we can move on. Please act on Cberlet's request to stop editing the other LaRouche articles until we've reached an agreement on this one. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 21:18, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Chip, your information about LaRouche is much appreciated. The only thing I would caution against is appearing to be self-promoting, so it would be helpful if criticism of LaRouche came mostly from other published sources. Using quotes from LaRouche, as you've been doing, is the best evidence of his views, of course. I would also say that it isn't necessary to rehash every little point. The page is 7,088 words, which is too long, so it needs to be cut, in my view. I feel the John Train Salon claims have caused a problem, because Berlet has the right to refute them as he's being accused; and the refutation is involving reference to earlier Berlet articles and their connection to the LaRouche conviction, a connection Herschel and Weed are objecting to. Therefore, I suggest we either delete or reduce the John Train allegations, and not bother to refute them; do a general copy edit for better English, then stop editing this page. Is that agreed? Does anyone have other issues? SlimVirgin 22:20, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Herschel, thank you for quoting the LaRouche log about NBC, but I would like to have confirmation of this from non-LaRouche sources. The ArbCom decision did not give you the right to insert unverified information into Misplaced Pages articles, and if you got that impression, you misunderstood their decision. I'm not doubting that there were NBC programs on LaRouche, and they may have mentioned Kissinger, Carter, and Palme, but I'm finding it hard to believe that NBC actually accused LaRouche of murdering Palme, and of planning to murder Carter and Kissinger. If they did, there are bound to be non-Larouches sources for this, and I'm asking you to supply one. I've looked myself but can't find any. SlimVirgin 22:47, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Democracy

I still have one issue relating to the question of whether or not LaRouche has ever bashed democracy. I provided one quote, which has been contested as to meaning. I would appreciate it if HK would respond to this quote. What does this mean to you HK?

...numbers, as such, be determining factors in human society; denies the right of numbers to govern by means of periodic consultations; it asserts the irremediable and fertile and beneficent inequality of men who cannot be levelled by any such mechanical and extrinsic device as universal sufferage. Democratic regimes may be described as those under which the people are, from time to time, deluded into the belief that they exercise sovereignty, while all the time real sovereignty resides in and is exercised by other sometimes irresponsible and secret forces."

Doesn't this bash democracy?--Cberlet 23:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've posted links to the archives of the LaRouche Talk pages, on Lyndon LaRouche, Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, and United States v. LaRouche, as there has been a lot of cross-posting, and there are some worrying omissions from the archives. I may create a template so that the list looks tidier. I see now that the John Train allegations have been causing trouble for about six months, so it is definitely time to bring that issue to a close. Herschel, in your previous discussions of the Palme, Kissinger, and Carter murder or attempted murder claims, you say those claims arose out of the John Train meetings, and subsequently went swirling around (I think was one of the expressions you used). You make no mention of NBC making those accusations.

Herschel, for the record, I note that you've accused editors in the past of being biased against LaRouche in various ways, or of being activists etc. Also, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from archiving Talk pages related to LaRouche. You at various times said you were "closing" or "retiring" a conversation, then you deleted it. SlimVirgin 00:34, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Herschel, I'm having trouble finding material in the archives. You seem to have moved a lot of material and installed it elsewhere out of context. For example, can you tell me what happened to the following, and why you moved it? On August 19, you deleted this discussion about LaRouche's alleged Holocaust denial from Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues and moved it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 . Then on October 11, you moved the entire Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1, which makes me wonder why you extracted the Holocaust denial discussion and moved it separately. You later moved Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive4, where it is out of context and I can't find the Holocaust denial discussion.

There is some discussion about Holocaust denial in Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive7 and I've also looked through Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/fullarchive, but I still can't find this material. Could you let me know where you archived it please, and why you removed it from its context? I apologize if it's there and I have simply overlooked it. It's hard to be certain after looking at diffs for a couple of hours. I've restored it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues, and I've put Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 on the template too. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 10:39, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

HK continues to post self-serving responses to previous discussion into the interior of this page without leaving a note at the bottom. I was under the impression that we were being asked to make sure that any responses had to be either at the bottom of the page, or noted at the bottom of the page. If I am wrong, please advise me.

Also, I would lke to know which quote about democracy HK would consider a more accurate representation of LaRouche's views. The "episodic majorities" quote or the "periodic consultations" quote?

"episodic majorities" quote

"The human species is not a collection of chickens, cows, pigs, sheep and so forth. Therefore, ‘pluralism’ and other British notions of ‘democracy’ are fit only for British aristocrats, not for self-respecting human beings such as the citizens of the United States...The essence of republican organization, including republican parties, is the mobilization of a majority of the citizens as a conscious force engaged in direct deliberation of the policymaking of the nation, of discovering which policies are in fact currently in the interest of the nation and its posterity. By creating a republican labor party of such trade unionists and ethnic minorities, we shall end the rule of irrationalist episodic majorities, of British liberal notions of ‘democracy.’ "

"periodic consultations" quote

...numbers, as such, be determining factors in human society; denies the right of numbers to govern by means of periodic consultations; it asserts the irremediable and fertile and beneficent inequality of men who cannot be levelled by any such mechanical and extrinsic device as universal sufferage. Democratic regimes may be described as those under which the people are, from time to time, deluded into the belief that they exercise sovereignty, while all the time real sovereignty resides in and is exercised by other sometimes irresponsible and secret forces."

I have answered numerous questions from HK, I think it is fair that I ask HK to answer this question so we can begin to debate my interpretation of these quotes.--Cberlet 17:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The second quote is a fragment and it is difficult to determine the context, so if it wouldn't be too much trouble, please supply the context. As it stands, I prefer the first quote. However, the real issue here is that what CBerlet seeks to do here is not to provide a quote that is representative of LaRouche's views on democracy -- I could find one if the consensus is that one is necessary -- but rather, a quote that can be "spun" to support his POV theory that LaRouche is an authoritarian who opposes democracy (as Weed pointed out, CBerlet evidently thinks that it is undemocratic to propose that trade unionists and ethnic minorities be brought into the electoral process). For those readers who actually care what LaRouche thinks, I think that it would be fair to say that LaRouche would weigh in on the side of the "republic" in the "democracy vs. republic" debate, which is succinctly summarized elsewhere in Misplaced Pages. --HK 21:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have posted several pages of context around the first quote at

http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/Scans/republabpty/republabpty-pp6-10.htm

My argument is that LaRouche's discussion of what is wrong with democracy is similar to the organicist and integralist positions of Benito Mussolini. This is more clear in the larger quote in context. My favorite section is where LaRouche is praising the Platonic idea that the lower third level of society--the merely "existential­ists" level--should not be allowed to vote, and LaRouche states: "In the United States today, we permit adults on the third level to enjoy the rights of citizens, of course-we even permit existential­ists to run for public office and to teach in schools and universities-which is a dangerous error." He bemoans the democratic legacy that allows the Platonic lower third level of people to be classified as citizens who can vote. LaRouche and his followers, of course, are the Platonic Golden Souls. I think that both quotes express the fascist idea that the organic leader should assess the will of the integralist masses, and does not need to be bothered with the numeric polling of elections. LaRouche is denouncing pluralism, not embracing actual republicanism. He simply redefines organicism and integralism as republicanism.

I find the discussion hard to follow with the comments appearing in mid stream. I am going to start posting the location of my additions in the "Edit Summary" box. Perhaps that will help.--Cberlet 00:39, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Assorted responses to issues raised above

Since Slim and CBerlet have complained when I post responses to questions directedly below the questions (as I believe is customary at wikipedia), I will post responses here.

• Re: Slim's renewed proposal that the Train material be deleted: this is non-negotiable. The fact that a very significant portion of what is called "criticism" of LaRouche emanates from a relatively tiny group of people is in fact highly relevant to a discussion of LaRouche's views, especially as "analyzed" by persons such as Chip Berlet (I speak of him now in his capacity as source, not editor. I think that it is highly inappropriate for him to be wearing both hats.) Regarding the argument that this should be deleted "because the article is too long," the last person to make this argument was CBerlet, and within a week he was adding an entirely new section on "LaRouche and gay people." My suggestion would be that if one wants to demonstrate a sincere concern for space considerations, one might begin by removing something which supports his or her own POV. --HK 01:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, the thing to do to shorten the article is first of all to remove the unverified stuff, which is almost always the material you have contributed. SlimVirgin 05:36, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

• Willmcw says, "I don't think it's necessary to include hundred of words just to show that he has endorsed violence against gays." The point here is that LaRouche has not endorsed violence against gays. The quote out of context was intended to suggest that he has.

• Re: Slim's comments about Snowspinner: Snowspinner's mediation was in fact highly successful. You don't like the outcome, because you have a rather extreme POV on this subject. Additionally, Slim, you are attempting to arrogate to yourself the role of mediator here ("Thank you, Chip. As far as I'm concerned, you've done more than enough. You and Will can decide how much of the quote to use.") when in fact, you are a party to the dispute. It is ironic, in a grotesque sort of way, that you should suggest that Weed and I stop editing this page because it "is causing a lot of disruption and unnecessary work." In other words, we are impeding the progress of a POV re-write of the article by your team, as it were. This discussion needs a real mediator.

--HK 21:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't recall making any comments about Snowspinner. Where are they?

We don't need a mediator. We need you to stop editing these pages, so the remaining editors can make the pages NPOV. SlimVirgin 05:36, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

HK, I've read and re-read the "baseball bats & gays" quote and still believe that LaRouche is asserting that (children?) have the right to defend themselves against AIDS-infected pedofiles by beating gays with baseball bats. If other quotes from LaRouche were less homophobic it might be possible to consider it a slip of the tongue during what appears to be a rambling speech. But since he makes his animus clear, here and elsewhere, I think that I am interpreting it correctly. Is there additional context? Was this the end of the speech or did he speak more on the topic? I suppose we can take a vote of editors to see what the consensus is on the meaning if that is contentious. As I said before, I think that excerpting just the last couple of sentences is sufficient to avoid belaboring the issue. I think we should find a short quote from the gay community on how his policies have been regarded there. And a short quote from LaRouche showing that he really isn't a homophobe, if you can find one. That's all this article needs as far as these quotes go. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:57, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the quotes from LaRouche back up Cberlet's interpretation of their meaning. I also agree that we don't need to quote too much, though I'd say a couple of paragrahs, whereas Will would prefer one, but I'll support either. If no one objects, I'm going to ask for the page to be unprotected, as Herschel doesn't seem to have raised any new objections. If anyone disagrees with me, please let me know within the next couple of hours. Thanks, SlimVirgin 00:35, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with your interpretation. LaRouche writes as he speaks. When he says "It's perfectly moral" to beat gays, he's satirizing the opposition to invoking Public Health laws in the case of people with AIDS, whom he says are both murderers and deadly weapons. That, he says, trumps their civil rights. The last sentence implies that not restricting people with AIDS is the moral equivalent of not restricting attacks with baseball bats. Not entirely sure, as the quote is pretty convoluted, but that was how I understood it in my first and second readings. Of all the parts of that quotation, I think that's the least anti-gay. That is not the way in that quote is anti-gay. DanKeshet 09:40, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Convoluted is right. Since this one quotation's meaning is disputed, perhaps we can find another excerpt to settle on. How about this one, from the same speech, with a possible context:

Regarding the failure of government agencies to enact quarantines for AIDS infected persons, LaRouche has said:

did not want...to estrange the votes of a bunch of faggots and cocaine sniffers, the organized gay lobby, as it's called in the United States. (I don't know why they're "gay," they're the most miserable creatures I ever saw!)

It's short and clear. -Willmcw 10:02, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dan, you didn't say whose interpretation you disagreed with. I don't think I gave an interpretation, and I don't know whether the others did. Yes, it is clear that LaRouche is using irony, but it is not clear to what extent, and he makes no effort to make it clear, despite knowing (he must have known) that what he was saying was highly controversial. This is why I feel we should not just use the one paragraph about cricket bats but must use it in context - although not too long a context. LaRouche is comparing people with AIDS to people who carry axes or loaded guns; then he's saying we shouldn't be surprised if AIDS victims start being beaten up because government won't act to restrict them; but then goes further and seems to equate AIDS victims with gay people, then further still, with pederasts; and then talks about children's rights to attack pederasts. I think we should use the quote, not interpret it, and let the readers make up their own minds. SlimVirgin 10:09, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Having said that, I should add that I'll agree to any quote that's accurate, relevant and properly referenced, so if the rest of you can reach an agreement, don't let me hold things up. SlimVirgin 10:18, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

The role of Wikiopedia is not to provide source material so that readers can make up their own minds. That is the role of Wikisource. This article is now 13 pages long, and perhaps still not comprehensive. Remember, this is just one quote we're talking about. There are several other long quotes in the article that also need to be excerpted or removed. -Willmcw 10:24, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would normally agree with you, but in the case of LaRouche it's important to provide quotes, as Herschel himself has often pointed out, instead of interpreting what he's saying, especially when the quotes are so hard to interpret. But I do agree with you about the length problem. It's over 7,200 words. SlimVirgin 15:11, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Slim: I was replying Willmcw. All I was saying was that the bit at the end was meant as satire. DanKeshet 18:08, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, Dan. SlimVirgin 18:10, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Herschelkrustofsky's archiving

Herschel, I saw you addressed my question on Talk:Lyndon LaRouche, but didn't answer it because I must have expressed it badly, so I'm clarifying below. Which page would you prefer to discuss this on to avoid cross-posting? SlimVirgin 23:32, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Herschel, I'm having trouble finding material in the archives. You seem to have moved a lot of material and installed it elsewhere out of context. For example, can you tell me what happened to the following, and why you moved it? On August 19, you deleted this discussion about LaRouche's alleged Holocaust denial from Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues and moved it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 . Then on October 11, you moved the entire Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1, which makes me wonder why you extracted the Holocaust denial discussion and moved it separately. You later moved Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive4, where it is out of context and I can't find the Holocaust denial discussion.

There is some discussion about Holocaust denial in Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive7 and I've also looked through Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/fullarchive, but I still can't find this material. Could you let me know where you archived it please, and why you removed it from its context? I apologize if it's there and I have simply overlooked it. It's hard to be certain after looking at diffs for a couple of hours. I've restored it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues, and I've put Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 on the template too. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 10:39, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

When the edit wars ended in October, I moved my the remainder of my list of objections, those which had not been resolved earlier, to what is now called Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 (Closed issues). Issues that were resolved earlier, were moved earlier. --HK 15:50, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Herschel, sorry I must have expressed my questions badly, so I'll make them clearer.

• I would like to know why you moved anything (resolved or unresolved) out of the Talk pages, and out of their context?
• I know you moved the Holocaust denial material to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1. But as this list wasn't displayed anywhere, no one would have known to look for it. So my second question is: where is the Holocaust denial material in the regular archives e.g. Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive1 etc., or Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/fullarchive? Or is it in the political views archive? SlimVirgin 23:32, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

The list was in fact displayed numerous times in the regular talk page. The idea of creating a seperate group of pages for discussion of the list came from User:MyRedDice, and I would suggest that you address your concerns to him. This is beginning to look like a tactic to simply overwhelm me with requests for this and that; I don't have the seemingly unlimited amounts of time to devote to Misplaced Pages that you do, and my priority is going to be to respond to POV edits from your team. --HK 01:26, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'd be grateful if you'd make it a priority to answer the question about the Holocaust denial material. Regardless of whose idea it was to move it, where did you place it in the Talk:Lyndon LaRouche archives? SlimVirgin 01:34, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

I've requested that the page be unprotected, because Herschelkrustofsky doesn't seem to be raising further objections to the validity of the gay quotes, and the other editors seem to agree that they are genuine. SlimVirgin 01:34, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Herschel has protested against the page being unprotected, on the grounds that he is too busy editing other pages to concentrate on this one. That isn't a reason to leave a page protected, as you know. You must either come to this page to discuss your remaining oncerns, or I will again ask for page unprotection tomorrow, and will offer the lack of discussion on this page as evidence of your attempt to take ownership of this article. You are the only editor who believes Cberlet quoted inaccurately. You cannot, as one individual, stop him from inserting accurate material. SlimVirgin 05:40, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Objection

I also believe that Berlet quoted inaccurately, through fallacy of composition. The problem can be solved if the previous paragraph is included, as in This version of the article, so that it is clear that LaRouche is not endorsing violence against gays. Weed Harper 16:24, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There are literally hundreds of obviously antigay quotes in LaRouche publications from the 1970s through the 1980s. I have cited two antigay documents by LaRouche and one from the LaRouchite Illinois Tribunal. This discussion is Orwellian. Am I to be forced to post dozens of quotes to prove what is obvious? This is in addition to the claim by me and other LaRouche critics that his views, at least in the 1970s and 1980s, were substantially similar to the organicism and integralism of fascist intellectuals in Italy, and other countries. The tactic here is to obfuscate and wear editors down until they agree something is NPOV when it is actually heavily biased in favor of LaRouchite rewritting of their own history. --Cberlet 16:49, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

WH and CB, rather than the long quote now used (along with other too-long quotes), here is an excerpt from the portion provided by HK. Is it agreeable to both of you to use this instead?

Regarding the failure of government agencies to enact quarantines for AIDS infected persons, LaRouche has said:

did not want...to estrange the votes of a bunch of faggots and cocaine sniffers, the organized gay lobby, as it's called in the United States. (I don't know why they're "gay," they're the most miserable creatures I ever saw!)

To my eye this quotation is short and clear. Any objections? -Willmcw 19:28, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK with me as a valid compromise position.

There is still a sentence in the gay section that is very misleading:

The argument in support of Proposition 69 which appeared in the Voter's Guide published by the State of California said that "These measures are not new; they are the same health measures applied, {by law,} every day, to every other contagious disease."

State of California Voter's Guides contain assertions from both proponents and oppponents of a Proposition. The current phrasing imples the words cited were endorsed or issued by the State of California. They were not. This should just be cited as a proponent claim from the LaRouchites, just like the claims of opponent Bruce Decker cited in the preceeding paragraph.--Cberlet 20:13, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would accept Willmcm's quote without the ellipsis and without his editorial comment, which implies that the measures would have enacted mandatory quarantines, which is false. I would accept this:

"We have another purpose in fighting AIDS, for our fighting AIDS--for our inducing people to do what they should have done anyway without our speaking a word. Government agencies should have done this. There should be no issue! But government agencies didn't! That's the issue. Why didn't they? Because of a cultural paradigm shift. They did not want, on the one hand, to estrange the votes of a bunch of faggots and cocaine sniffers, the organized gay lobby, as it's called in the United States."

I would also accept this formulation for the California voters guide:

The argument written by supporters of Proposition 69 which appeared in the Voter's Guide published by the State of California said that "These measures are not new; they are the same health measures applied, by law, every day, to every other contagious disease."

I believe that the original had italics rather than brackets. I would recommend that the same basic formulation be used for Bruce Decker's comments if they indeed appeared in the voters' guide, and that the two opposing comments be juxtaposed.

Regarding the search for quotes: the basic problem arises from the fact that editor CBerlet, like his real-life counterpart, activist Chip Berlet, is not interested in presenting a neutral, informative, encyclopaedic account of this controversy. He wishes to promote his arcane theories about LaRouche, and thus must search for a quote that he hopes to "spin". If there are so many homophobic comments by LaRouche, I am certain that CBerlet could have found one that didn't have to be "cooked."

I note also DanKeshet's comments above; evidently he, too, "gets it." I would disagree, however, with Dan's assertion that LaRouche "writes as he speaks" (although he tends to use extremely elaborate constructions, whether writing or speaking.) In the disputed quote, you are reading a transcript of spoken remarks, and I'm sure that the lack of spoken affect makes the irony less obvious. But, Dan was able to understand it nevertheless. --HK 21:49, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Additional objections

• • I'd like it to be clear that the Illinois Tribunal is not a "LaRouche publication." I had never heard of it; the only reference on the internet comes from Chip Berlet. I would accept the formulation "a newspaper published locally by LaRouche supporters", although I have seen no evidence that that is in fact the case.

Images posted previously, as requested:

http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/Scans/misc/iltribkkk.jpg

New Solidarity described as parent newspaper.

I have added additional images showing that the paper was published by LaRouche

Find them on this page:

http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/context_quotes.html#gays

You have to click on the links!

--Cberlet 00:05, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• • I would like CBerlet to post a photostat of the alleged article in "New Solidarity" so that I can verify that 1) such an article actually exists, and 2)that we don't have another case of manipulated context. I followed the link to the Chip Berlet site , only to find the same fragmentary, out-of-context presentation, and no photostat.

Done

Find them on this page:

http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/context_quotes.html

You have to scroll down and click on the links!

--HK 22:09, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

First, let's get the name of the LaRouche proposition right. It was Proposition 64.

Let's look at the quote from a law review:

"69. See Martha A. Field, Testing for AIDS: Uses and Abuses, 16 AM. J.L. & MED. 34, 45 n.44 (1990). In California, Lyndon LaRouche gained sufficient voter support to place Proposition 64 on the November 1986 ballot, although the proposition was soundly defeated. Voters Have Say on Referendums, CHI. TRIB., Nov. 6, 1986, at 12. Proposition 64 would have required public officials to quarantine anyone carrying the AIDS virus, and would have forbidden AIDS-infected individuals from teaching or attending public school. Id. The state health director recognized that the language of the proposition could be interpreted to mandate testing of all 27 million California voters. Id. at 45. Echoing views similar to Proposition 64, North Carolina Senator Jesse Helms commented that, in order to contain the spread of AIDS, quarantine would be necessary. Bennett Would Detain Some Carriers of AIDS, N.Y. TIMES, June 15, 1987, at A13."

http://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/lawrev/45/malloy.html

--Cberlet 22:20, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

First of all, there were two, identical initiatives, props. 64 and 69. Secondly, they were worded very carefully: they simply restored AIDS to its former position on the state list of communicable diseases, subject to public health law. Your quote may be from a law review, but it is speculative and wrong (and probably influenced by the propaganda spread by persons such as yourself). Quarantine would in fact be one of many options available to the health department, but I would not care to second guess them as to how they would proceed, were AIDS to be placed in their jurisdiction. --HK 22:38, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

HK, Can we find a neutral source for the text of the proposed law and the ballot statement? If not then we should not include them. As for the quarantining, every commentator on the initiative mentioned the quarantine aspects. Again, without performing our own analyses it is not an issue we can decide. We can report that PANIC claimed it did not require quarantine and opponents said it did. It is not for us, as editors, to establish the truth. -Willmcw 01:44, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here is a neutral source:

Editorial

San Francisco Examiner, June, 29, 1986, p. A-12

Let’s tell LaRouche to get lost

THE NOVEMBER ELECTION already was shaping up as a fire-spitting affair with several abrasive collisions materializing, and then here came Lyndon LaRouche's outfit to make things worse. The AIDS initiative placed on the ballot by the efforts of LaRouche followers would represent, were it approved, a sickness of public policy almost as bad as the disease itself.

It is an old-fashioned hateful witch-hunting proposition and hence it may, by stirring fears and antipathies, raise the pre-election heat to a degree that is both uncomfortable and unwholesome.

But this can be mitigated if the point becomes vividly clear, well beforehand, that a sizable majority of the California public is repelled sufficiently to tell LaRouche and his entourage to get lost. Let us all try to be a part of this early rejection of an extremism that makes more wrenching the mortal sadness of AIDS and offers, instead of relief, a monstrous form of ostracism.

In its exclusionary sweep, the proposal exceeds anything ever contemplated in this country, in respect to a disease that is non-communicable by any casual contact (by agreement of the leading experts in medicine and research). The state ballot proposal, for which the tenacious LaRouche people collected some 630,000 signatures, seems aimed at sealing off people with the AIDS virus (including all those who do not have the AIDS sickness) from the rest of society.

Hence we see a chilling vision of police-state methods. Health officials would be empowered to scoop up and test anyone even suspected of carrying the virus. Those carrying it could be made to stay in their homes, or in special centers. School-age children with the virus would be barred from school, and adults would be excluded from jobs as school teachers, administrators or commercial food handlers. Their travel might be restricted. Quarantining on this scale could require a sizable use of police power.

Mayor Feinstein rightly calls the proposition "misguided and hysterical," especially since it "flies in the face of all sound medical opinion." It will gain votes, though, from many people who fear AIDS and do not take time to analyze, and from prejudiced people wanting to inflict repression on gays, who bear the principal brunt of the lethal malady. But surely most citizens will see right away that it has nothing to do with necessity or reality, only with delusion and penalizing.

LaRouche followers, who have claimed, for example, that the queen of England is into drug dealing, are no strangers to delusion. They should not be allowed to inflame this state with this irrational initiative, and they won't if enough people denounce it often enough.

That provides plenty of neutral material.--Cberlet 02:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

More Quotes for Balance

"The LaRouche Initiative (Prop 64) would open up a witch hunt in the workforce and make the containment of AIDS more difficult than ever."

John F. Henning, Executive Secretary-Treasurer, California Labor Federation, AFL-CIO

"The UFW sees Proposition 64 as a threat to the job security and public health of every Californian. We resolve to bury this initiative."

Cesar Chavez, President, United Farm Workers of America, AFL-CIO

"Health professionals believe that Proposition 64 would seriously hurt their ability to treat and find a cure for AIDS. Current medical efforts based on years of research will be undermined by the fear generated by this irrational proposition."

Helen Miramontes, R. N.. President California Nurses Association

"It is hard to take Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. seriously, but it can be dangerous to ignore him... not many people took Adolph Hitler seriously when he wrote his twisted manifesto, Mein Kampf."

AFL-CIO News, April 5, 1986

The LaRouche forces have to be stopped in California. They are a band of provocative thugs with a long history of attacking Blacks, women, unions, Jews, Chinese and gay people--whoever is a convenient scapegoat at a given time."

Coalition of Black Trade Unionists

I think these need to be considered. --Cberlet 02:54, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good source

A good online source for LaRouche's writings and a vast collection of LaRouche- and LaRouche-movement multimedia content is the LaRouche Youth Movement website, especially Books and classics.

Another Cook job

Thanks to Chip Berlet for posting the photostats of the New Solidarity article on his website, but what it reveals is that his edited version of the quotes is unacceptably misleading. Visitors to this talk page should take the trouble to compare the photostats to the quotes he posted in the article . For example, the omitting of the sentences "The impact of this pattern of developments on Britain's youth gangs of violence-prone football fans is predictable. One can read their general line of thinking in advance." By omitting these lines and cutting to "Since the idea of of touching the person of the carrier is abhorrent," Berlet makes it look like LaRouche is expressing his own views, instead of views that LaRouche is attributing to Britain's youth gangs. This sort of trick is sadly typical of the stuff on Berlet's site. Weed Harper 01:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You mean the article titled "Teenage Gangs' Lynching of Gays is Foreseen Soon." Gee, seeing the whole thing is even worse than the excerpts. Can you show us the part where LaRouche condemns violence against gays? -Willmcw 02:12, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Malicious Statements and Personal Attacks Need to be Corrected and Action Taken

Weed and HK have stated the following:

HK: (as Weed pointed out, CBerlet evidently thinks that it is undemocratic to propose that trade unionists and ethnic minorities be brought into the electoral process)."

This is false and malicious. This is another in a long series of personal attacks that violate Misplaced Pages policy.

I am in the National Writers Union, have worked for unions, and was a shop steward in a union. I have worked with ethnic minorities ranging across the color line; and worked with trade unionists, white ethnics, and Blacks and other people of color, on the Harold Washington for Mayor campaign in Chicago. When PRA founder Jean Hardisty and I left Chicago, there was a small going away dinner attended by Mayor Washington who personally thanked us for our work exposing bigots like LaRouche. But then the LaRouchites wrote editorials blasting Washington using nasty and vicious language.

Have editors here at Misplaced Pages decided that repeated and flagrant violations of the policy on personal attacks do not apply to HK and Weed? When was this decision made? I have repeatedly been charged with inventing quotes. Then, when I post the context for the quotes, there is a demand for an image file. Then, when I post the image file, HK and Weed state that the text does not mean what 99.9% of the editors here at Misplaced Pages would consider a fair and accurate reflection of the views of LaRouche and the LaRouchites.

When are editors going to stand up against this?--Cberlet 03:10, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't know whether editor Cberlet adores or hates trade unions, or whether the person Chip Berlet is a liar or a messiah, and it does not matter. Our task here is to edit articles, and it is inappropriate for anyone to engage in personal attacks on other editors, or to post libelous statements about any person. Please, let's keep our attention on the article at hand. I would hate for us to have to waste our time, and the time of administrators and aribtrators, mediating personal disputes. -Willmcw 05:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

From the archives :

The essence of republican organization, including republican parties, is the mobilization of a majority of the citizens as a conscious force engaged in direct deliberation of the policymaking of the nation, of discovering which policies are in fact currently in the interest of the nation and its posterity. By creating a republican labor party of such trade unionists and ethnic minorities, we shall end the rule of irrationalist episodic majorities, of British liberal notions of ‘democracy.’ "

Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. “Creating a Republican Labor Party.” Citizens for LaRouche, circa 1980.

I think this cleary is evidence of LaRouche's disdain for electoral democracy. Comments? --Cberlet 21:34, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have two comments: first, that LaRouche appeared to be aware of the danger of Newt Gingrich and his "Contract with America" a decade and a half before Gingrich became prominent. Second, that your argument, that this quote represents evidence of a "disdain for electoral democracy", is a joke. LaRouche is talking about organizing labor and minorities, who have been ignored by the dominant parties for decades, and bringing them into "direct deliberation of the policymaking of the nation." You find that undemocratic? Weed Harper 01:16, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

--HK 15:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My apologies to Weed Harper. I now can clearly see that it was HK who turned Weed's legitimate question into a personal attack on me.

HK: (as Weed pointed out, CBerlet evidently thinks that it is undemocratic to propose that trade unionists and ethnic minorities be brought into the electoral process)."

That is not what Weed said at all. Weed simply asked a provocative question. I assume that HK will now apologize to Weed also, so that we can follow the advice Willmcw posted above. I'll try to take a few deep breaths before typing. :-) --Cberlet 18:12, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)