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Pashtun Numbers

We all know that there are many pashtuns in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India that speak Dari, Hindko, Saraiki, Pahari, Urdu and so many other languages and in most cases are not included in Pashtun population. But if we go with very stringent formula i.e. the pashtuns that speak pashtoItalic text and rely on information being forwarded/supported by elements who want to depress pashtun numbers, even then, pashtuns in Pakistan and Afghanistan combined are more than 54 million (Afghanistan: 16 Million (42 percent of 38 million), Pakistan: 38 million (Pakistan Census 2017)). But the reality in case of Afghanistan and Pakistan is that Pashtuns/Pathans are around 70 million in both the countries combined 101.50.68.180 (talk) 09:03, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

WHY IS THE PASHTUN POPULATION IN PAKISTAN IS NOT BEING SHOWN AS AT LEAST 38 Million. When according to Pakistan's own census (Not some third countries estimate!!) 18.24 % of Pakistan is pashto speaking pashtun. If non-pashto speakers are included that number goes to 25%. However, just that makes than 38 million Pashto speaking pashtuns.. https://www.dawn.com/news/1410447 203.175.78.69 (talk) 09:44, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Salaam

Namaste.

Amanbir Singh — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.204.227.41 (talk) 16:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

India does not contain any pashtuns population and Turkey has 1.3 million Pashtuns as of this day. 2A02:C7F:A476:E300:A8CB:10C1:2411:B709 (talk) 05:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. –Austronesier (talk) 09:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Genetics

I think the genetics section was written by someone who doesnt understand genetics very well. First of all Y-DNA study is being referred to which only tells about the paternal lineage and nothing else, instead an autosomal study should be used to decide genetics of Pashtun people. Secondly the referred article seems very confused and has ambiguous representation of data or charts which doesnt make sense in broader perspective. Moreover in that article, halogroup L-M20 is declared to be autochonotus to India but is actually prevalent in many places in central and west Asia as well as Europe in substantial frequency rivaling that of India. And moreover the subclad of L-M20 predominant in Pashtuns is actually distinct from that of Indians. Now, majority of scholars associate it with neolithic expansion of farmers from west Asia; with central asia being second wrt scholarly consensus. So yes Pashtun, Tajik, Pakistanis and North west Indians do have genetic affinity wrt to Y DNA but that doesnt prove anything about the entire genome of Pashtuns and there are many individual groups around the world that have the same proportion of Y-dna diversity. And in broader sense the halogroup frequency is reversed towards India if individual casts are ignored with halogroup R decreasing and H increasing. If we go by the logic of article then some individual southern European and west Asian groups will cluster right next to Indians and Pakistanis but we know that's far from being a fact. So the genetics section must be written with clear emphasis on Y DNA homogeneity and not otherwise. Unfortunately there hasn't been a comprehensive autosomal study on Pashtuns due to Afghanistan and Pashtun regions of Pakistan being politically unstable since Soviet war, so nothing conclusive can be said about genetics Pashtuns. Sharjeel.khan126 (talk) 10:53, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Revision of Genetics Section

The section needs revision. Grant permission. Sharjeel.khan126 (talk) 16:33, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

Dear User:Casperti, I have reverted you per WP:BRD and have restored the status-quo version of the article, along with some references that you added. You provided a link to the Census of India for your number of 21,677 Pashtuns, though the Census of India link makes no mention of the number of Pashtuns in India; it only mentions the number of Pashto-speakers, which may or may not include non-Pashtun Hindu refugees from Afghanistan who speak Pashto (as such, concluding that this number represents the number of Pashtuns in India is original research). In light of these facts, I have removed it from the article. The All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind records a figure of 3,200,000 for the number of Pashtuns living in the whole country, with The Hindu mentioning that on 17 July 1954, over 100,000 Pashtuns received Indian citizenship in Gotlibagh (near Srinagar) alone. The All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind mentions that the 3,200,000 Pashtuns living and working in India do not possess citizenship, which is why they would not be recorded in the census. Since these are the only reliable figures that we have to work with that explicitly mention the number of Pashtuns in India, this is the number that should be mentioned in the infobox. Other than that, I have restored the references that you have added with respect to the large unknown number of Indians of Pashtun ancestry. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 23:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Anupam and other editors, Last year my fellow editor @Anupam: added this source for the Pashtun numbers which say Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan's great granddaughter with her organization says there are 3.200.000 Pashtuns in India (descendants or ethnic Pashtun??). I advocate for the use of a Census or ethnographic source like the Government of India mentions the number 21.847 .

This is clear without a doubt a non-reliable source for Census counts WP:RS. Since when are we using quotes from Famous people instead of Censuses and ethnographic sources from the government itself?.
Since recently @Mar4d: found the numbers also unreliable (of Joshuaproject), maybe you can help Mar4d? what do you think of Anupam's citation that we use for the Pashtun counts in India.
The source mentions that Gaffar Khan granddaughter has an organization named All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind this organization has neither a website or whatsoever only a very small Facebook page so we cannot take a source out of it, which is unfortunate. WP:RS. Our wiki page on this organization has more info then the Facebook page also this wiki page was also made by Anupam . But I assume ofcourse WP:FAITH.
3.200.000 ethnic Pashtuns is a significant number of Pashtuns that should be mentioned in at least 1 ethnographic source (book) if they really meant full ethnic Pashtuns, not descendants. That said, this will add more to the unreliability side of this story.
As we use for every other country: Government Censuses, CIA Factbook or Ethnographic sources but for India we use a citation from a famous living person for a count of 3.2 Million people.
Also the source does not mention whether they are talking about descendants or full Pashtuns? They mention in the article Salman Khan & Amir Khan as Pashtuns so assumably they mean descendants(?) but it is still unclear on everything and no one knows..... + they have no counting date
Fellow editor Anupam argues that Censuses only count citizens therefore we cannot know the exact number, which is true indeed but we can argue that on any census count? e.g. in Germany, Iran, Tajikistan, etc we can say maybe there are more Pashtuns there too because many are "illegal" or are citizenseekers (do not have citizenship?).
UNCHR claim there are atleast 11.000+ Afghans citizen seekers in India.
but in short: I prefer the Government of India census over a citation of a famous person. If the descendants of Martin Luther King in an African-American movement say that there are 100.000.000 African Americans should we take that as a Reliable source instead of a census? Certainly NOT. That said, it is indeed known that India holds millions of Pashtun descendants so maybe someone can find a source on that. @Dougweller: is an admin who frequently watches this page. maybe you have an opinion too on this 3.2 Million source and @Uanfala:, @Wikaviani:, @Arjayay:. So, therefore, the Government census, with additional notes to it, is reliable and good to use like we do on other countries for ethnicity counts. So not the citations from living persons, small organizations e.g. Joshuaproject etc. Just censuses and ethnographic sources for WP:RS --Casperti (talk) 00:47, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Once again, the Census of India link that you provided does not say anything about the number of Pashtuns. It only mentions the number of Pashto-speakers, which can include other ethnic groups in India that speak Pashto. Since the All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind is an interest group for Pashtuns in India, its figures would be accurate with respect to the number of Pashtuns in India. Additionally, it makes no sense that there would only be 21,677 Pashtuns in India when over 100,000 were granted citizenship in that country in 1953. As a side note, please keep the talk page comments in chronological order rather than refactoring them. I initiated the discussion here, with the timestamp of my comment coming well ahead of yours. Thanks, Anupam 01:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

The census mentions 21,000 speakers of Pushto and Casperti is trying to equate that to 21,000 Pushtuns (WP:SYNTH). The figures provided by the Indian Pushtun organisation are accurate and should be used here. Aman Kumar Goel 03:35, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Greetings Casperti and Anupam. Census figures, for the most part, are considered accurate and authoritative for ethno-linguistic groups as they are sourced to the government. From what I know, the established practice on Misplaced Pages has been to use them for any nationality/linguistic/ethnic counts. I would suggest embedding the census figure in a note so that readers are aware of the official figure purely in linguistic terms. As for the All India Pakhtoon figure, it certainly appears to be the only source out there which Anupam notes. However, I won't say it's the best source. Partly because the person making the claim (the head of this organisation) does not appear to demonstrate any academic background on the subject, and secondly because there is no source corroboration which determines how they estimated this count. There's also the major problem of lack of WP:THIRDPARTY. So essentially, we are relying on a claim coming from a primary source, which is not ideal. The reference can stay for now, but eventually it will have to be replaced by a reliable, academic source when it is found per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Best, Mar4d (talk) 08:30, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

It is well known that many many Kabuliwallah Pakhtuns have been in India for centuries. The attempt here to diminish the numbers seems fishy, especially since the same editor tried to censor material about Hindu Pakhtuns in this article not too long ago. Both Pakistani citations and Indian ones support the 32 lakh Pakhtun figure. Other sources say that there are 100,000 Pushtuns in J&K alone so Casperti's claim is way far off. Shashank5988 (talk) 17:50, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments User:Aman.kumar.goel, User:Mar4d and User:Shashank5988. In light of them, I see a consensus to retain the current figure. User:Mar4d, I agree that as of now, the figure provided by the All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind is the only one out there, though if you find another one, you can kindly let me know. I am grateful for the two additional sources that you have provided as well User:Shashank5988. These demonstrate that the same figure has been repeated in mainstream publications. Kind regards, Anupam 03:30, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you User:Anupam and User:Mar4d. Yes it is indeed no rocket science to understand that Ghaffar Khans's Granddaughter 3.2 million figure is not reliable. We all know that there are millions of Pashtuns descendants in India, it is almost like "You do need to cite that the sky is blue" WP:DOCITEBLUE so the other user Shashank5988 making claims that I am against that, are just plain accusation which only proves the user's WP:NPOV. The other user User:Aman.kumar.goel only says "the Indian Pushtun organisation are accurate and should be used here".....that is not really helpful.. not even an argument is used. In addition Shashan5988 is putting the exactly same source (Ghaffar Khan's granddaughter's story) but from a different website/newschannel. That does not change the facts... Both editors want to challenge the 21.000+ Pashto speakers figure from Government of India itself which is undoubtedly a WP:RS. Just challenging the speaker figure by giving a video and articles about Kashmir Pashtuns to prove that the census is wrong is just WP:ORIGINAL. I accept that after Independence 100.000 Pashtuns moved there and they indeed got, several years after the Kashmir war, citizenship from India but the video Shashank5988 is even working against the editor itself. In the video they clearly say that only the elders of the community that settled there speak Pashto and that he is scared that the community will lose their native language over the years. Do not challenge the government census saying there are not 21.000+ Pashto speakers. In fact it is making sense after all according to UNHCR there are 11.000-15.000 Afghans in India (including non-citizens/refugees) so the additional figures could be Kashmir elders of the 100K Pashtuns that settled 70 years ago but again who knows... We just follow reliable sources. I can agree on Mar4d's idea to let it be like that till we have a better source for the descendants figures and that we should indeed mention the Indian census in the notes. so the source can stay for now. Cheers. Casperti (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Casperti, I have no problem with your addition of the Census of India figure in the article footnotes. That being said, it doesn't belong at the beginning of the footnote since the purpose of the footnote is to explain the main figure provided. As such, I have moved it to the end of the footnote. User:Shashank5988, I have added the references that you have provided to the footnote that User:Casperti created. Thanks for your understanding. Kind regards, Anupam 19:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you are right about the footnotes. I have moved it now so people can see it is separate from that. Furthermore, what I mentioned here above: Shashank5988 gave the same content/information/source from different news channels. Which is justMisplaced Pages:Citation_overkill#Reprints But of course, I assume WP:GF in that edit of yours. Now we will just wait till we have a better source for the numbers which is atleast an ethnographic source or Census. I still think it is better to use the Official Indian census which is also used for other ethnicities figure on Misplaced Pages like Punjabis, Bengalis, Marathi people and all of them use this 2011 census but to avoid conflict we will let it stay like this and wait for better sources. Thank you. Casperti (talk) 22:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear User:Casperti, thank you for your comment. The reason why I think retaining all three references is beneficial is because it will prevent further edit warring and will prevent this issue from coming up again and again, saving our time from further extensive discussion. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 22:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Anupam, I understand that but that does not change the fact why it is still no WP:OVERKILL? Like come on, it is exactly the same content?! Same person same story different channels. I know I am relatively a new user but this is clearly not what Misplaced Pages is about. Atleast show why it is not WP:OVERKILL. Your source is unreliable. User:Mar4d also finds it unreliable. Please let this not be a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I accepted the souce to stay till we have a better source but what you are trying to do is against the rules clearly just work with it like all of us. Casperti (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

No User:Casperti, I've made my reasoning clear. I am willing to WP:COMPROMISE with you on the issue, however. Rather than leave three sources to support the statistic, how about retaining two? I would prefer keeping The News International since it is from Pakistan (we already have an Indian one). Also, don't speak for User:Mar4d, with whom I have worked with for many years; he agreed to retain the reliable source and my comment received a public thanks from him. Let me know your thoughts. Additionally, please be aware of the fact that if you revert once again, you will have crossed WP:3RR. Thanks, Anupam 22:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I cannot see where Mar4d agreed that it is a reliable source? Maybe you should point it out? In fact, he says I do not see it is reliable as it does not meet the requirements of WP:RS. Just read the comments or ask the user Mar4d again.. You have already added the Pakistani version of the Ghaffar khan story without waiting for an answer, very lowkey. Then you say: "if you revert me once more It is the 3rd time" seems it goes "childish" but with neat words but forgot that. Anyway, to be on-topic; you can merge the two references. On the WP:OVERKILL page for reprints you have solutions such as merging only if the cited contented is not mentioned in one of the other and the 2nd duplicate reference has something to support the citation (that India has 3.2M Pashtuns). I do not see how a Pakistani version of the exact same citation (that India has 3.2M Pashtuns) will not be WP:OVERKILL. None of the OVERKILL sources are statistical. Furthermore, you have added the word "Additionally" without any proof of whether Ghaffar Khan's Granddaughter includes the descendants or just speaks of pure ethnic Pashtuns who speak Pashto. In fact the source even includes Salman Khan in the 3.2M figure and he is clearly no ethnic Pashto speaking Pashtun. To be neutral on that point we can just avoid the words "includes" "excludes". If you think that is fine too? If not please provide the sentence where it says it has excluded descendants Casperti (talk) 23:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Casperti, you can merge the two references if you would like; I have no objections to this. If we're doing that, we might as well include the third too. The 3,200,000 figure clearly makes reference to non-citizen Pashtuns in India, not individuals of Pashtun descent who are clearly Indian citizens like Salman Khan, who is only mentioned as an individual that might contribute to the building of a university. You will not interject this POV in the article. I have separated the footnote to make clear that these are two separate facts that do not belong together. To associate them together when the source says no such thing is to create an unreferenced synthesis. Another solution might be to remove the note about millions of Indians with Pashtun ancestry altogether, since the figure about the All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind says nothing about this and claiming the 3,200,000 along with this unknown number is original research. Anupam 00:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Anupam, again before making accusations just try to look at the source besides that all these questions that we all have and unclarity just once again approves why we should not use a citation of a famous person from a news article for population counts. So on your accusation the exact text says: 'Asked about who would fund in putting up the university building, Yasmin said that if 32 lakh pathans paid Rs 10 each there would be a lot of money. “Besides there are people like Salman Khan and Amir Khan who can contribute a lot more,” she said.' so there are people (from the 3.2M that should donate 10 Rs) who can provide more than 10Rs such as Salman Khan and Amir Khan (both are Pashtun descendants). They are indeed Pashtun citizens so that once more proves how this source does not meet any WP:RS. You, making a claim that they are excluding descendants is actually a WP:ORIGINAL but anyways because she does not specifically say she includes or excludes them we will go for your idea to just drop that part. About the overkill, you have to strip the excessive duplicate and just merge the duplicates that you think should be mentioned at least. Keep in mind every ethnic-linguistic group uses censuses and ethnographic sources. this is the only ethnic-linguistic group that has a citation from a news article which cites a famous person. Do not make any accusations on me further like claiming censorship that just a sign of showing WP:NPOV from your side. So I will drop it here we just have to wait for a better source (ethnographic or census related), it is not a weird request/idea. Thank you. Cheers Casperti (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

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