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WikiProject Religion

I noticed your summary on your recent edit to the above page, particularly the "Beware ..." line. Just wanted to let you know that I, the person who recently redesigned the project so that it actually would have the potential to have members, for the first time in its existence, also did much of the work putting together the project directory you mentioned, so I am rather well aware of it. My apologies if I didn't edit the various sections adequately, but I am still primarily at this point assessing and/or placing the project banner on the various articles within the scope of the WikiProject Dogs, which is slightly older, and haven't yet finished to turn my attention to the Religion project. You will note that, despite the age of the page, I am the first person who joined the project, and that only within the past few weeks. You will also note that I did this after leaving a few comments on the talk page to the effect of how the project would need members to be viable. Thank you for having made your edits to the page, correcting the errors I overlooked in my rather hasty addition of a members section and updating the project page. I just wanted to make sure you realized that the project was not created by an inexperienced noob (although it is one of the few I have created) but was unfortunately revised rather more hastily than was probably wise. Thanks again for cleaning up the page. Badbilltucker 15:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, sir. I did note that project in the directory when it was first created, and as already being on the project page when I revived it. I have reservations about it myself, particularly as a citizen of the United States of exclusively German background, and given the fact that it seems to be leaning over a bit too far to be less than critical of its subject. I tend to think that that project, which has only gotten two members, is very likely going to go inactive, and probably be absorbed into the larger WikiProject Germany shortly after it goes through three months of inactivity. Also, I know that a few other individuals are going through the early steps of trying to see these limited scope projects merged into larger projects, and I think, with the new Germany Project, this will probably be one of the first to be suggested for such a merger. Once that happens, if it does, then I think it will almost certainly be much better defined. Kusma has done great work with the Germany project since it was started, and it already has two subprojects in place. As one of the active members of that project, even if not one of the more active ones, I think he might listen to me if I propose to him that he propose that the project be merged into the Germany project, probably with a slightly broader scope, like German philosophy/religion in general. I'll drop him a note right now and ask him what he thinks of the idea. My apologies again for my earlier mistake, and thank you for calling my attention to it. Badbilltucker 15:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

myself, I would like to see it widen its scope to become "Wikiproject Germanic paganism"; since "Germanic" doesn't equal "German", it would fit better than absorb it in Wikiproject Germany. It somehow started out on a wrong foot, apparently created by an editor unaware of the general conventions regarding Wikiproject, and it seems clear something should be done with it. I am sure some satisfactory solution will be found. dab (𒁳) 16:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Germanic Mysticism/ Template

Hello.

The templates on articles provide useful links for the novice. The "Germanic Mysticism" template on the Odin Brotherhood page was a great navigational tool. Is it a good idea to delete it? --Tsmollet 22:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Germanic Mysticism and Template talk:Germanic Mysticism, Revivalism and Nazism. dab (𒁳) 22:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		This is for all your hard work making Misplaced Pages a better place. Natasha 17:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Who is the first recorded human by name?

This intriguing question was asked on WP:RD/H. So far the only response was: the guy who is mentioned in the Tărtăria tablets :) --Ghirla 18:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Moon phase

Hi, your percentage on your moon phase thingy seems to be slightly out according to this: http://www.calculatorcat.com/moon_phases/phasenow.php?tcv=31 FK0071a 19:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I know, it's crap, but it's the best I could do in Wikisyntax. It's a gross simplification. I might try and enter an actual power series some time. dab (𒁳) 20:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

How actually does this work? The code is:

{{User:Dbachmann/moon1|q={{#expr:((({{CURRENTJULIANDAY}}-2454000.98958)/29.530588*4000) mod 4000)/1000}}}} <noinclude>]</noinclude>

How does this automagically paint a picture and adds relevant text? Tom Peters 08:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

the image switching is done at User:Dbachmann/moon1, but as I say, it's dreadfully crude. dab (𒁳) 09:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Quagmire

Hey Dab, would you mind looking at this if you have the time and giving advice on how to proceed. This has been without mediator or admin attention for some time now, and doesn't seem to be coming to any sort of resolution. There is, in my opinion, a lot of conflict of interest, link-spamming and outright google-bombing underway - my watch-list is just being inundated with self-referential links and refs. I fully understand if you don't want to touch this with a ten-foot pole, but I think your erudite and neutral opinion on this matter would help get the ball rolling on what to do next. - WeniWidiWiki 20:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but to be quite blunt, I couldn't care less about Wicca festivals and people called RavenWolf -- too much of my time is eaten by haggling about topics that are actually encyclopedic. The involved parties should carve it out, according to Misplaced Pages policy, like adults. If any obnoxious or disruptive behaviour requires locking or blocking, let me know and I'll crack down as uninvolved admin. dab (𒁳) 20:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I am honestly rather uninterested in the subject matter myself. I am more worried about the ramifications of commercial entities spamming every neo-playgan Misplaced Pages entry because it is being permitted in this instance. I am unfamiliar with what to do in cases like this, as it is not just solely about content but about raising search-engine hits and utilizing Misplaced Pages to advertise. Thanks, though! - WeniWidiWiki 20:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

oh, the sad state of some articles has never been a compelling excuse for the spamming of even more articles. If we would begin to worry about the desolate backwaters of Misplaced Pages's 1,5 Mega-articles, we'd never sleep again :) be content to fight entropy on those articles on your watchlist :) dab (𒁳) 20:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Sound advice. Thank you. :-D - WeniWidiWiki 21:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

map relicensing

Hello. Please see this page and edit that page (while logged in to Commons) to indicate whether you agree with the proposed relicensing. Thanks! NerdyNSK 00:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Help on another subject

Hi, I have noted you have edited part of the page on the Hittites. If you have time, could you have a look at the page on the Turkish Van in which there is some contested history which, in part mentions the Hittites and an alleged depiction of cats. Your comments would be welcome. Meowy 01:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Infoboxes, again

Would you like to offer your opinion in Talk:Turkey#Formation about whether founding dates of religious empires should appear as the founding dates of modern nation-states? Regards. Miskin 15:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge

I was gone for sometime... Has the issue about merging Heathenry and Germanic neopaganism been resolved one way or another? From looking at the discussion, it looks like they probably should not be merged, but I just wanted feedback from you before pulling the templates. - WeniWidiWiki 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

something should be done. Ideally, make Heathenry a disambiguation page because, well, it is an ambiguous term. If the two articles stay seperate, their respective scopes should be made very clear in the lead (as with Asatru). dab (𒁳) 07:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I technically don't know how to go about this. Something like redirecting "Heathenry" to "Germanic heathenry" or "Heathenry (neaopagan)" and then making a disambig page at Heathen? Then manually go through and fix the 50 or so in-links to Heathenry? Any ideas? - WeniWidiWiki 07:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

the point is: what exactly is the topical difference between what is discussed on Heathenry compared to Germanic neopaganism? This isn't made clear. "Heathenry" is a term used primarily in the UK to refer to "Germanic neopaganism". We cannot have two articles with the same scope, that's POV-forking. We can conceivably make "Heathenry" into "Germanic neopaganism in the UK" and thus a sub-article of "Germanic neopaganism". But usage is not so clearcut. The article at present claims that "Heathenry" is defined as "Germanic neopagan polytheistic reconstructionism", i.e. based on "literary and archaeological sources". This isn't made clear from the title, and the article itself admits that this is only one possible usage of the term. Hence, I strongly recommend that "Heathenry" is made a dab page. If we decide we need a separate article on ""Germanic neopagan polytheistic reconstructionism", move it to a disambiguated title, such as Heathenry (reconstructionism)". dab (𒁳) 08:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to take care of this. Professional, as always. I've replied over at Heathenry (reconstructionism). Thanks! - WeniWidiWiki 16:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Kurgan editing

In line with your comments, may I suggest that you restore the sections that you deemed "good", and leave out the sections that you deemed "offtopic". That would not take much of your time, and may save us all time from nuisance editing wars. And your constructive actions will be fully appreciated. With your help, "we might be getting somewhere." Barefact 06:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this even readable?

barefact again is trying to start a similar sourceless article! . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ali doostzadeh (talk • contribs) 20:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

it would appear this is actually a valuable translation from the Russian, it just needs cleanup and merging. dab (𒁳) 21:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

But the problem with the source is that it is from more than 100 years ago! (vol. 21, 1892). On another note, J. Harmatta in History of Civilizations of Central Asia. By Ahmad Hasan Dani, G.F. Etemadi, János Harmatta, Baij Nath Puri calls the Issyk Inscription as Iranian.

. Now this is an exact neutral source and I'll ask dab to added in. This is also an example of brining a material from a major scholar who has authority with full reference and citing it. I am afraid barefact simply does not do this in his articles or if he does it is from say 120 years ago. --alidoostzadeh 21:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see your point. No inscription is mentioned. The 1892 source states that the Kalmyks venerate the stelae as the spirits of their ancestors. I doubt that today's Kalmyks still do this, so you will be unlikely to find a more recent source confirming this. dab (𒁳) 23:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Part of the discussion was about the Issik inscription. . See pg 421. When I asked barefact to provide a clear source that someone noteworthy with lots of published papers has called the Issyk inscription proto-turkic, he did not bring any sources. I know brought a source from Professor Janos Harmatta which considers the inscription related to Khotanese Saka (middle Saka) Iranian language. Thus I really doubt the proto-turkic theory specially with all sources mentioning Orkhon being the oldest Turkic inscription. Yet barefact simply many times without any reliable sources inserted proto-turkic. That is where the problem started with that article. --alidoostzadeh 00:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not call the language of Issyk inscription proto-turkic, I used the author's description, and his definition of "proto-turkic" in Russian may have connotations different from those of alidoostzadeh. I think what is important is that there is a coherent translation in a single language by an outstanding expert in the field where in the whole world are very few experts. Amanjolov is an author of the textbook, only one existing in the world, on Turkic script "Türkic Runic Graphics", piblished in 1980 (Part 1), 1981 (Part 2) and 1985 (Part 3), and used to educate Türcologists from other countries. Amanjolov published 3 articles on the Issyk inscription subject, in 1971, 1975, and 1985. The peer review list for his book includes V.M. Nasilov, Sh.S. Ailyarov, V.D. Arakin, G.F. Blagovaya, A. (Мариям-ana) von Gaben, E.A. Grunina, Leo (Arslanbek) N Gumilev, A.N. Kononov, A.H. Margulan, C.H. Menges, E.N. Nadjip, Ü. (Düle) F. Nemeth, and faculty of Türkic philology in the Moscow University. His book is a publication of Kazakhstan National University, which also has its own publication criterea, though I do not think that Amanjolov with his stature had to wait in a long line to be published. And what's interesting is that some words remain forever, like the Türkic "üchüg/ochag" => "hearth" is an active word in Eastern and Western Slavic languages of today, for example. Amanjolov translated at least one another inscription from kurgan burial, but because I can't find the provenance of the find, I did not cite it. Barefact 02:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Again no sources. I brought an online source from Janos Hermatta which has clearly stated that the Issyk is Iranian. Amanjalov just gets hits in pan-turkist sites the first one being your site and most of the others being your edits reflected in wikipedia copied sources. And only 97 hits! Looks like he is claiming Turkish writing to be Sumerian . resulted in additional introduction of more than twenty indisputable lexical coincidences between the Sumerian and Türkic languages that ascend to a proto-Türkic language or a status of the language even before the migration of the "Sumerians"to the Messopotamia .

Janos Harmatta gets 12800 hits. The book which Janos Harmatta's article appear is published with the support of UNESCO and it is from 1999. And by the way Ojaq actually means fire-place in modern anatolian and Azerbaijani Turkish and not heart. The sumerian Dingir is translated as Di-n (law) gir (gives) which I can play tongue twisters and claim it is daad-gar of Persian (law-giver). And Hommel was from 100 yers ago and at that time many different opinions including relating sumerian with African and etc existed. So by this claim alone. I am sorry the scholars you want to quote are not reliable and are usually homegrown scholars. --alidoostzadeh 03:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Guys, can we drop the "Proto-Turkic" debate? No, the inscription is not Proto-Turkic, and no, Turkic is not related to Sumerian. Barefact may have made such a claim at some point, but he is not pushing it now, as far as I can see, and to keep bitching about it when he is talking about completely different topics is not helpful. All such Proto-Turkic and Turko-Sumerian nonsense should of course be reverted as vandalism. And, can we please stop spelling Turkic as "Türkic", it's silly. The English term is Turkic. dab (𒁳) 11:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks but the scholar barefact wanted to quote about Issik is saying Sumerian is proto-Turkish. And those are the type of statements I am concerned about (Ossetic is non-Iranian, Scythians were Turks, ...) as they are really vandalism than anything else :) This was my main problem with the article. Lets see where it goes beyond that. --alidoostzadeh 17:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

And note that he is pushing the image (the translation being from the guy that claims Sumerian is proto-Turkish) and so my complaint is totally valid (not nagging which I hate to do). --alidoostzadeh 19:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, yes, this Sumerian nonsense needs to be removed on sight. Why do we have no Issyk inscription article? dab (𒁳) 09:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I googled for information on the Issyk inscription, and while it remains undeciphered, with Scythian being a probable candidate for its language, a 3rd century BC date and its eastern location doesn't seem to rule out Proto-Turkic: it is speculation, but it isn't impossible that Proto-Turkic dates to this period, and that Turkic tribes began to infiltrate eastern Scythia at that time. This isn't, at least, crackpottery on equal footing with Turko-Sumerian. Comparison with Orkhon seems rather far-fetched though, Orkhon first appears a full millennium later. The artwork in the kurgan being typically Scythian, the kurgan itself is certainly to be classified as Scythian, but who knows the history of the silver cup. The script will probably be inspired by Greek, and may just be an ad-hoc creation impossible to decipher without further finds. dab (𒁳) 09:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually the Issyk Silver inscription has been deciphered by Harmatta (very well known and has written the most complete book on Samartians)

(see pg 421 for decipherment of the Issyk Silver Inscription with sufficient arguments that it is indeed Scythian Khotanese Saka) and I do not think an author who in the same book claims Sumerian is proto-Turkish is a valid source. Such sources are not valid for wikipedia and when someone once to quote that other on proto-Turkish than why not quote the same book on Sumero-Turkish? If any seriously published english writing scholar and turkologist (just one scholar) has claimed the Issyk inscription to be proto-Turkic then it is a valid source. --alidoostzadeh 12:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Besides the above book which I just mentioned, please google Khotanese Saka and Janos Harmatta. --alidoostzadeh 12:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks. I agree of course that the Amanjolov reference is nonsense, but we can still mention it up front for what it is. dab (𒁳) 12:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay resolved for now as lone as that introduction is there. Although personally I do not think pan-turkists should even be mentioned in wikipedia. I'll let you think about that and decide. --alidoostzadeh 12:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I am used to keeping all sort of nonsense on Misplaced Pages, just as long as it has been printed, and is properly qualified as fringy; see Out of India theory. dab (𒁳) 12:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow.. I see you got your work cut out for you.. my advice is this. If weird articles out there can not be supported by major scholars from major universities, then they should be deleted. Even if we mention the out of India theory as whack (and it has been totally repudiated by Harvard University Professor Witzel) I think by giving in too much (for example the out of India theory) and letting it have its own article, you are keeping yourself too busy.. I would simply remove such articles and ban repeated violaters who falsify major facts. But you know best what to do with your admin rights. --alidoostzadeh 04:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar

This case is now closed and the results have been posted above.

• BhaiSaab (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned for one year.
• Hkelkar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) editing under any name or anonymous ip is banned from Misplaced Pages for one year.
• TerryJ-Ho (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned for a year for personal attacks, disruptive comments, edit-warring and incivility.
• BhaiSaab is placed on probation for an indefinite period. He may be banned from any article or set of articles which he disrupts. All bans to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar#Log_of_blocks_and_bans.
• Hkelkar and socks is placed on probation for an indefinite period. He may be banned from any article or set of articles which he disrupts. All bans to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar#Log_of_blocks_and_bans.
• TerryJ-Ho is placed on probation for an indefinite period. He may be banned from any article or set of articles which he disrupts. All bans to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar#Log_of_blocks_and_bans.

For the Arbitration committee, Cowman109 06:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

ararat arev

Don't his actions constitute as disturbance? He is constantly spamming.--Eupator 16:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

yes he is. dab (𒁳) 08:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

CZ

Have you checked out Citizendium yet? It is refreshingly free of nationalist trolls, and the requirements for adminship (a publishing record and qualifications comparable to those for a tenure-track position) will soon have us some chief editors who have no patience for cranks. It's beautiful there, and since I no longer have to put up with constant battles, I finally have time to start writing actual content. CRCulver 01:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I took note when it was opened, but I didn't expect it acquire critical mass. I'll look at it again. dab (𒁳) 07:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was vaporware as well; I'll take a look, thanks! --Xiaopo (Talk) 08:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

where is it? http://citizendium.org/ still talks in the future tense. Frankly, I hate its name (alright, it took some time before I could warm up to "Misplaced Pages" too, but I now think it is quite inspired, by virtue of the first element being in a non-European language: 'we want to go beyond classical learning'; while citizendium is just lame). I don't like what I read at http://citizendium.org/ -- the points made are valid, but it still reads like a huffing ego trip. I don't care about Larry Sanger's ego. I don't care about Jimbo Wales' ego either, but he is, fortunately, very good at not bringing it into equations, which is a good part of WP's secret of success. Sanger, in his very own words, considers himself and Wales "two quibbling personalities", and everybody else "rank-and-file editors". What a diva. Quite pragmatically, citizendium will be useful as a 'walled garden' where Misplaced Pages articles can be developed in peace in the event of trolling. That's it. dab (𒁳) 08:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

http://pilot.citizendium.org/Main_Page is the starting point for the Pilot project. The contents are not accessible till you become an editor/author. Tintin (talk) 08:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

how silly. You need to be an editor to even read their stuff. They seem to be so obsessed with editorial quality that they'll probably publish articles at a rate of one per week. Thanks, but if I wanted to be part of a cabal, I'd hang out on wiki-IRC :) dab (𒁳) 10:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Dab, you misunderstand the situation! One has to register to view the site now because there are still some kinks in the software. However, the site will be visible by all in January. As for the publishing of articles, CZ copied *all* of Misplaced Pages's article namespace. So, it's already got everything Misplaced Pages has, minus the trolls and simple vandals which anon IP editing enables. You really should check it out. I'm very happy there, detect no "Sanger dictatorship" and am pleased that so many of my fellow editors hold formal qualifications. CRCulver 23:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Article in need of cleanup - please assist if you can

The article Armenian alphabet, to which you have helped contribute, has been flagged as requiring cleanup. If possible, we would appreciate your assistance in cleaning up this article to bring it up to Misplaced Pages's quality standards. If you are unsure what the nature of the problem is, please discuss this on the article's talk page. You have been left this message by PocKleanBot, an automated process that notifies editors that articles to which they may have contributed on more than one occasion in the past now need cleanup. If you have any comments or object to this message being left, please leave a message on PocKleanBot's talk page.

Block request

Hello Mr. Bachmann. Can you please block User:Ararat arev? He keeps spamming my talk page, despite warnings. I can't keep up deleting the crap. Thank you.--TigranTheGreat 08:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Also he needs to learn to stop messaging people i told him to stop once but he doesn't listen and he constantly annoys people. Nareklm 13:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

he also removed his block notice . well, he doesn't appear to be learning, and will thus probably not be staying around for long. dab (𒁳) 13:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

PIE

No, I wouldn't tag Earth and Eurasia. PIE plays a significant part in Indic history. Because of those theories being discussed, indic history is still continually being rewritten. The proto versions of these topics affected the religion of indic people, its society, and language. you'll notice I did not tag celtic, thracian or others of those nature. I also specifically used the history tag so people wouldn't be too offended...--D-Boy 09:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I ask that you kindly please put the templates back. You put the small parameter if it bothers you greatly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dangerous-Boy (talk • contribs) 09:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

no, I am really opposed to this sort of tag-mania. PIE doesn't play a "significant part in Indic history", that's nonsense. You might say the same about Bronze Age, Neolithic and other articles, it will simply not do to have national tags on what are clearly super-national articles. If you mean to refer to the political hubbub surroundin the topic in India, this is not addressed in the articles you tagged, but on Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies) -- it will be enough if you tag this one. dab (𒁳) 09:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

if all projects had tag-maniacs, we would see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Iran, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject History of Pakistan, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Caucasia, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Armenia, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Central Asia, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject South Asia, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Albania, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Germany, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Serbia, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Greece, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Italy, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Russia, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Scotland and many other tags on these pages. Hey, and why stop at national level? Misplaced Pages:WikiProject West Bengal and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Frankfurt would be nice too. This is not the point of Wikiprojects, as you would hope was obvious to anybody. dab (𒁳) 09:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

RfC

Unfortunately, I'm incompetent to assess this edit. --Ghirla 17:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Can I remove the block notice now?

The 31 hours of block are over can I remove the notice? Also I saw someone put a graphic picture on the Talk:Armenia page for 10 minutes then they removed it. It didnt show in the edit history. Ararat arev 18:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenian History

Look here in Urartu

"..and it seems that both Armenians and the Urartians had a major link with the Hurrians."

"..relatively high quantity of Armenian words and even entire Armenian phrases and sentences in the inscriptions (over 70 word-roots).."

Just a few examples of Armenian words I found in Hurrian-Urartian:

arSi-bi, eagle = arSiv (b = v)

šur-, weapon = sur

uš-gi, strength = uj

Erebuni = Erevan (b = v)

Bian = Van (b = v) Ararat arev 06:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Another point is that those who wrote the inscriptions were the elite. The common people didnt even understand all of it at that time. There are even Armenian words I dont understand today, cause of writers using difficult words. Those who wrote these inscriptions were the elite. Ararat arev 16:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

it is well possible that there are Urartian loans in Armenian (but cite your sources). That doesn't make Armenians Urartians or Urartians Armenians, any more than Englishmen are Arabs because of words like magazine or cotton. dab (𒁳) 17:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Since you see realize this, can you correct the Antiquity part you put that Hurrian being seperate? They are not seperate and they didnt vanish in thin air. If we have to do a percentage like 80% Hurrians are Armenian than let's do that. Kurds for example could have a % also of Hurrians. Ararat arev 18:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are some of the sources on this issue:

Jacquetta Hawkes, "The First Great Civilizations," London, 1967

"Yet the Hurrians did not disappear from history. Away to the North in their Armenian homeland, they entrenched themselves and build up the kingdom of Urartu."

M.Chahin, "The Kingdom of Armenia," London, 2001

"The new kingdom of Urartu, which proved to be the stronghold of the Hurrian race."

You can find more sources on my page here Ararat arev 18:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

what is your point? It is one thing to say the Urartians are Hurrians (which is pretty acceptable), and a completely different thing to say the Urartians are Armenians. The Hurrian-Urartian point is duly addressed at Hurro-Urartian. dab (𒁳) 19:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok you didn't really answer me on this one:

" They are not seperate and they didnt vanish in thin air. If we have to do a percentage like 80% Hurrians are Armenian than let's do that. Kurds for example could have a % also of Hurrians. " Ararat arev 19:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not interested in arguing with you, Ararat; you quite obviously are not familiar with the concept of ethnogenesis. Be that as it may, you just need to cite sources. Don't argue, don't post pretty pictures everywhere you go, just quote scholarly opinions. So far you quoted authors saying that the Urartians have a connection with the Hurrians. That's fine, that's certainly a quotable opinion, congratiulations. As it turns out, we already do reference it, we even have a Hurro-Urartian article. dab (𒁳) 19:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

i will do it myself

Hello dear ur message on page (Talk:Moen Jo-Daro ) sure i myself will make picture and uploded .

Khalidkhoso 05:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Sindhi language

Hi! I would like to request you to put your thoughts into the Sindhi-language talkpage, to gain a more neutral opinion. A Wikipedian had switched the order of Sindhi and Devanagari on the article page. This change was minor, but I thought is was a type of POV-pushing and an unjustified edit. Sindhi is a language that has been written in many scripts over the course of its history. The Sindhi-Arabic script is the one used in Pakistan, where the vast majority of Sindhi speakers are located (around 19 million). Even in India, where 2 million Sindhi speakers live, Sindhi-Arabic script is actually more popular than Devanagari because the latter was introduced by the Gov't in 1948. So despite the fact that Sindhi-Arabic script is the most popular and commonly-used script for the Sindhi language, many users are pushing for Devanagari to precede Sindhi-Arabic on the Sindhi language page. And although this is a very very minor issue, I think it should be address to the benefit of a major language's article page to be accurate and encyclopedic. Thank you, and best wishes! Mar de Sin 20:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the opinion! Hope you enjoy your holiday --Mar de Sin 20:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you cure (clear up) Copyright licensing issue

Hi!

Great map work here. Kudos! I was porting images onto the commons which lead me to this contribution you made to that discussion, and essentially, as far as I can see, those images just above the link to yours are mistagged with 'PD' and so need clean-up. I presume you all meant GFDL, but whatever you meant, I hope it's useable on Template:W2. As far as I can see, a couple of the users uploading the other maps are no longer with the project. So, can you verify the licenses to something not deprecated? Or use 'PD-because' with a justification. All the links (three) on the map following were apparently combined to generate Image:Map-of-human-migrations.jpg and so are also of similar interest and need, if you know anything on those? Thanks. // FrankB 05:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

A general linguistic knowledge question

This doesn't relate to any article but I was reading Pervez Musharraf's autobiography when he stated that Pakistani cuisine originated from Turkey and Urdu also originated there. I can give you the exact text if you want. I was quite surprised because I had always thought Urdu as Hindi with a variety of Middle Eastern influences. I'm not sure whether a Turk can communicate directly with an Urdu speaker but I do know a Hindi-speaker and Urdu speaker can. Anyway, just checking on the basis of this claim, I could read in depth on the origins of Urdu but I thought you might know this. Nobleeagle 05:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

No, that sounds very unlikely. Urdu and Turkish are completely unrelated, and there wasn't any historical contact either. I wouldn't take Musharraf's word for this (or anything else for that matter :) dab (𒁳) 09:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes well as the book progresses I'm finding that the rumours were true. It is more a fiction novel than an autobiography. The propaganda overwhelmes any truth there may be to his accounts of war periods. Did you know that the Pakistan Military Academy is the best in the world? Did you know that the Eurocentric UN attempted to dissuade Pakistan from joining the PK mission in Bosnia? Did you know Pakistan deserves more credit than the US in Somalia? I could bore you with more propaganda but I'm sure you have better things to read. Nobleeagle 04:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually if I may be of assitance, the term Urdu which is related to the Turkic word Ordu and in English it is horde is a word coined up during the Mughal era. Thus the language is Indo-Aryan but the name of it is not. For example Azeri is a Persian word but the language is Altaic. And etc..--alidoostzadeh 02:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Funding of religions in Switzerland

Hi Dieter, in an edit summary for article Switzerland, you wrote "this sounds as if the churches were financed by state funds, while it is just the state collecting the taxes from adherents". Actually, in some cantons, churches are actually directly funded by state funds ! As an example, in Vaud, the State directly pays the salary of many priests out of the general canton's budget. A quick search yielded documents such as or (the actual law). Sorry, French only. If you still plan to work on this paragaph, it would probably be worth mentioning. Schutz 15:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

hm, we'll need to give more detail then. The basic statement will be that each canton is free to deal with things, and a detailed article should ideally explain differences between cantons. Probably not something for the main Switzerland article; Religion in Switzerland maybe. It is certainly not the case that Landeskirchen are automatically funded by the state, which seemed to be the implication of the earlier version. dab (𒁳) 15:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think we really need Religion in Switzerland: in particular, I don't like seeing 6 "further information" links in the religion section — it looks silly, and they would fit much better in a separate article which I will create right now. It may still be a good idea to shortly describe the fact that only each is free to organise itself, but also explain quickly that the cantons have indeed chosen widely different solutions. Schutz 15:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. Schutz 15:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Khachkar

Dab, I am tired of this guy who claims that the Armenian masters "made cuneiform inscriptions" in the Kingdom of Mitanni. I suppose his "source" fails WP:RS. What do you think? --Ghirla 17:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Europe_topic

Dear Dbachmann, Do you have any specific reason that you remove some country but you keep smilar ones in template in "territories" section.? Regards. Must 18:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Pani

Pani has been proposed for deletion. Please look at it. You seem to have written most of the article. Cheers --RF 22:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Frater Xyzzy

Hi Dab, I saw your comments on this user's talk page. Today he is acting quite belligerent towards me and one of the articles I've worked on, Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism. He explains his motivations here: diff. Thoughts? --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. - User:999, whose agenda he is following, also wiki-stalked me with very similar behaviour, slapping prod notices on sourced articles I'd worked on, or asking for citations of every sentence of articles. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see the Proto-Armenian language page

Please see the Proto-Armenian_language page.

This is just a few take a look at the page:

Martiros Kavoukjian, "The Genesis of Armenian People", Montreal, 1982

Points out that the royal families of Mitanni and Urartu spoke Hurrian, but not the common people

• Rafael Ishkhanyan, "Illustrated History of Armenia," Yerevan, 1989

Rafael Ishkhanyan points out the Sumerian words in Armenian, and its link with Hurrian as well

Martiros Kavoukjian, "Armenia, Subartu and Sumer", Montreal, 1989

The two charts of Sumerian words in Armenian are from Martiros

File:Armeni-Sumerian.jpg File:Armeni-Sumerian2.jpg Ararat arev 16:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are you removing these when you have the same scholars and historians references on your approval??? Martiros Kavoukjian I saw when you made a page with Narek the other day ! Ararat arev 17:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you aid with (yet another) dispute with Ararat Arev?

Once more he and I are butting heads over factual accuracy. His sources are fringe, and he gets furious when I confront them. Beyond this, he is constantly belligerant towards me. For instance, I have a basic understanding of Hurrian, and when I told him that stuff he was saying didn't match with reality, he told me to my face that becuase Hurrian is Armenian and I have admitted I don't speak armenian, that I don't read hurrian] and that he does.] Further, he is taking once more to accusing me of having some secret agenda to cover up the truth] ]. Lastly, he is refusing to comment on Mitanni's talk pages over what appears to be a potential edit war that he's instigating. What do I do? Thanatosimii 05:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Kavoukjian didnt say nobody spoke Hurrian as a common people. He said during "Mitanni" which as you know were IE family. As for Urartu (Ararat), this is the one that only the royal family spoke Hurrian. Ararat arev 06:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as Nairi, the tribe was there during Mitanni which Egyptians referred as Nairi or Nahrin. If you read the historians I gave the sources mention Nairi pronounced Nahrin is the same Assyro-Akkadian word for rivers. As you put the link to Aram-Naharin which means "Aram of the "2" rivers" which as you know is the main rivers Tigris and Euphrates. Ararat arev 06:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Ararat arev is a typical single-topic fringe editor. We get many of these. They typically run into WP:3RR, get blocked for disruption, or if they manage to follow policy enough to avoid bans on technical grounds, they finally get dragged to WP:RfAr. Ararat arev's behaviour is not acceptable, he does not contribute to improving our articles, he has clearly no understanding of WP:RS or even just WP:ENC, and I personally do not think we need to invest too much time in such problem users. Let him either wisen up or be reverted and eventually banned. dab (𒁳) 08:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of Issyk Kurgan inscription translation by A. Amanjolov

I have noticed that you inserted adjectives "hypothetical" and "speculative" to characterize translation of Issyk Kurgan inscription by academician, professor A. Amanjolov, who is known as an outstanding linguist, a recognized expert in the field of comparative-historical grammar of the Türkic languages and history of the Ancient Türkic scripts, who authored about two hundred works about the Türkic philology and linguistics, including 5 monographs in Russian and Kazakh languages, and publications in English and Turkish languages.

I know of only 5 people who could be in position to say something derogatory about professor A. Amanjolov, and these are, namely, Kyzlasov, Baichorov, Mukhammadiev, Shcherbak and Malov. I can supply you with a way to contact 3 of them. I do not think that you represent anyone of them. Without a proper reference, these derogatory "hypothetical" and "speculative" present a bad taste and unsubstantiated partisan opinion unbecoming to a position bound to ensure balance and neutrality. I suggest that these derogatory adjectives be either removed, or substantiated with a proper and specific references.

I am not saying that the translation is correct or final. Other experts may rectify and improve or challenge it. I am objecting to upfront unsubstantiated opinionated disparaging. Barefact 06:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but Amanjolov is a guy that proposes a proto-Türkic script and similar stuff. His 'translation' is pulled out of thin air. Even if we disagree about this, there is the much better established Scythian translation by Harmatta, which is of course completely incompatible with Amanjolov, so at the very least we will have to label both translations as speculative. If Amanjolov is at all a reasonable scholar, he will have labelled his own translation as speculative. There is nothing derogatory about the term. Also, I have no idea what this image is doing on Misplaced Pages in the first place. It is copyrighted and unusable. If you want to discuss the proposed translation, give it as text, not as an image. [[Us

er:Dbachmann|dab]] (𒁳) 08:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Recognized gets about 90 google hits all linking to some former wikipedia articles or barefacts webpage. Harmatta gets at least 10000 hits and is very well known. Also Amanjolov claimed that Sumerian is proto-Turkic. Naming other Kazakh and pan-turkist scholars does not help anyone's cause. If he was recognized the only websites that refer to him would not have been barefact's and his edits in Misplaced Pages. Harmatta's translation has been published in a very reliable multi-authored book. End of story. (btw note the double triple exclamation marks in the pan-turkic translation..even the guy can not believe it. LOL). And funnaier is that the first website that brings up Amanjolov's name is barefact's claiming that Sumerian is Turkish. It is has an article from a guy named Polat Kaya who have taken some Persians words and thinks it is Turkish and compared it unsoundly to Sumerian. Another funny article claims that the word Khwuda is Kirghyz and in Persian it is Huda. It is actually wrong and in Persian it is Khwuda/Khoda and the word is cognate with God and Dutch Khote and Sanksrit. In the end I am not going to quote some Iranian scholar on say Issyk or Kurgan and etc. If any western Turkologist has claimed Issik as Turkic (thus pushing Turkic back from Orkhon to 2-4 century B.C.) then please bring proof. Also please check this piece of gem out from Polat Kaya who is quoted on barefact's webpage. --alidoostzadeh 00:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

RFA you might be interested in.

Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 21:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you now remove the ethnic divisions

Now that we settled a little more on the roots of Armenian language, can you remove those parts in the Armenia Antiquity that divide Hurrian with IE. Specially when you mention Urartu being seperate, it makes the reader totally not see it Armenian also. Another point is that I dont know why you put Greeks linked to Armenians in language. Greek letters and sounds are not even close to our 38 letters and various sounds. Armenian sounds and letters are not even close to Greek. We have sounds I cant even show you with English letters. Ararat arev 06:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Even before adding new info on the Proto-Armenian language page, The Urartu page makes mention of Armenian sentences and words in the inscriptions (over 70 root words). Also saying that Armenians and Urartians had close links with Hurrians. It says that all in Urartu's page. Ararat arev 07:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

read my lips, Hurrian and Urartian are not Indo-European languages. Don't argue with me, cite your academic sources. You've mentioned your precious cuneiform Armenian inscription dozens of times now. Don't do that. Mention it once, with an academic reference. dab (𒁳) 10:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by academic reference? Those authors and scholars are not academic references? They are showing it right there, I dont get what you mean? Also, I hope you understand about the Greeks not being close to Armenian sounds. And Armenian is connected with Hurrian because of the words I even looked at like Ar"S"ib the "S" is not in English so I cant explain well, but its one of our sounds thats showing its from the Hurrian inscriptions. Ararat arev 18:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The Hurrian inscriptions are yet to be fully found. The Armenian sounds are not even close to Greek sounds like: "Kh", "gh" "jh", "T" I cant give the examples in English since those sounds are not found in English or in Greek also. Ararat arev 00:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of those sounds exists in Farsi too, and it is Indo European, Armenian has actually many similarities with Greek, words roots, structural similarities. The differences with other indo-European languages only point to mixtures of the languages, which is not particular to Armenian, but various Caucasian languages, Kurdish too. Take the Zaza's, the origins are still contradictory. Pro-Armenian langage entry isen't encyclopedic, we can creat such an article for all languages and we don't do that. Pro-Armenian is not singular, it is Phrygian, locals etc. Each could have their articles, and they already have it. Fad (ix) 05:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Listen you mentioned Farsi. I'm Persian Armenian and my parents are fluent in Farsi. We know all about the Middle east and the languages and sounds. Farsi only has the 'Kh' which we have also. All the rest of the sounds (I cant put in English cause they dont have those sounds)from the 38 sounds Farsi doesnt have. Our language is unique compared to all other languages. What I'm finding my self personally from looking at translated Hurrian words in English which is not the best way to look since English doesnt have those sounds. Its that those sounds and words are found in Hurrian more than Greek or Persian. Armenian words I personally found in Hurrian. The authors I pointed out to Dbachmann mention even Armenian sentences which I showed one sample of the cuneiform inscription and its meaning in Armenian. We definitely have a link with Hurrians. First of all, Hurrians isnt even a people but what I see and most of the scholars is that its an elite language our ancient kingdoms used, specially for specific purposes. Ararat arev 06:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a sign of progress, i'm glad that you realize that Hurrians are a people who speak Hurrian and not some ethnic group in the modern sense. --Eupator 18:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

What is this mean ? " Mitanni-cruft. "the history stretches to prehistoric times" is not a brilliant wording.)" Ararat arev 19:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I didnt make any copyright tags just to let you know. Narek has been here longer than me and I dont know how to make those tags first of all. I just used his tag since he was putting them from the same site. Ararat arev 19:56, 20 December 2006 (UT

Here is the reference:

• Rafael Ishkhanyan, "Illustrated History of Armenia," Yerevan, 1989

Mr. Ishkhanyan points out the greatest number of foreign loan words in Urartuan language is from Armenian--around 70 word-roots. The second observation points to the relatively high quantity of Armenian words and even entire Armenian phrases and sentences in the inscriptions (over 70 word-roots), which would indicate that, if in fact Urartuan was a borrowed written language, its writers spoke Armenian.

• Artak Movsisyan published a partial attempted decyphering of Urartian hieroglyphs, suggesting that they were written in an early form of Armenian. Ararat arev 18:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Another important thing I want to point out which I forgot to mention, is that not just Persians saying 'Armani', but Assyrians who even wrote the inscriptions say 'Armani' to Armenians to this day. As you know Assyrians or Akkadians were the same people who later continued with Assyria. Ararat arev 20:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are the renown scholars and academic sources:

Armenians are native Indo-Europeans, Indo-European originated in Armenian Highland, Ivanov's work was published in March 1990 issue of Scientific American and also by renowned scholars in November 2003 issue of Nature magazine.

These promising new discoveries add to the important findings of Metsamor that revealed the earliest metal smelting foundries of the ancient world. In the November 2003 issue, the prestigious scientific magazine Nature published an article by scholars Dr. Russell D. Gray and Dr. Quentin D. Atkinson verifying the origin (13 years after the publication by the Scientific American of Indo-Europeanist linguists -- Dr. Vyacheslav Ivanov's and Dr. Thomas Gamkrelidze's detailed work on the origins of The Indo-European Language and the Indo-Europeans firmly established that Armenia is in fact the Indo-European Homeland. This was further proved by the Indo-Europeanist scholars who come to the conclusion of the Indo-European origin in the Armenian Plateau and the immediate nearby areas by using the empiric method based on the "analysis of a matrix of 87 languages with 2,449 lexical items produced an estimated age range for the initial Indo-European divergence of between 7,800 and 9,800 years BP. These results were robust to changes in coding procedures, calibration points, rooting of the trees and priors in the bayesian analysis...the finding hints that farmers in -- what is now Turkey --