Talk:Tamils - Misplaced Pages

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Discussion prior to complete rewrite March 2005 – March 2006

Cuisine

The first paragraph is an adaptation of cuisine section of Chennai. Feel free to improve this draft so as to be included in the article.

The staple food of most of the Tamils living in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka is rice. (Should add info on emigrant populations).This is usually steamed and served with about two to six accompanying items. Typically the items are sambar, dry curry, rasam, kootu and thayir (curd) or moru (whey or buttermilk). Lighter meals usually include one or more of pongal, dosa, idli or vada, and are often served for breakfast or as an evening snack. Coffee is a popular beverage in the metros in general and Chennai in particular. Another popular beverage is strongly brewed tea found in the thousands of small tea kadais.

Each region in Tamil Nadu (someone should add info about other places) has its own distinct variant of the common dishes and also a few dishes native to itself. The Chettinad region comprising of Karaikudi and adjoining areas is known for both traditional vegetarian dishes like appam, uthappam, paal paniyaram and non-vegetarian dishes, made primarily using Chicken. Chettinad cuisine is now popular even in non-Tamil speaking areas as well. Madurai and the other southern districts of Tamil Nadu are known for non-vegetarian food made of goat meat, Chicken and fish. Parota made with maida, perhaps an adaptation of the north Indian Paratha, is also commonly eaten from food outlets in Tamil Nadu, more popularly in districts like Virudhunagar, Madurai and the adjoining areas. Parota is not commonly prepared at home as it is a laborious and time-consuming process.

- I have created a new page Tamil cuisine with an introductory paragraph. I propose to further develop the page during next 2/3 days.--Bhadani 18:12, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
  - I'd been asked to contribute talk here, but it looks like I wouldn't be much help. I've done some research and found a few interesting things, but that's it. If I think any of it might be useful, I guess I'll put it in as notes on the discussion page of your Tamil cuisine. --Mothperson 18:31, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Recent images added

Someone has added a couple of images. But the copyright status is unverified and also I'm sure the actress Sneha image is not copyright free. Moreover, since there is a picture of a female dancer is already given down below, I would like to have the image of a couple (male+female) in the traditional dress than the current one, which gives a synthetic look. -- Sundar (talk · contribs) 04:11, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the Sneha image either. Commons has a number of images of Tamils and Tamil Nadu. Perhaps we could substitute the Sneha image with commons:Image:Tamil couple working on a farm.jpg (or any of the others at commons:Category:Tamils). We could also use commons:Image:Farm in tamil nadu.jpg or commons:Image:View of coimbatore in tamil nadu.jpg for a picture of Tamil Nadu if the one in there at the moment isn't GFDL. I'll leave it to you to decide. -- Arvind 15:04, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Furthur, the image, Tamil Nadu landscape, looks like the aerial picture of a flood affected region :(! Calvinkrishy 15:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

I've added some of the images from commons. Someone please check the formatting. Also, I would like to see this image somewhere. -- Sundar (talk · contribs) 06:51, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Can someone provide free images of Silambam or Jallikattu? The bottom part of the article doesn't have pictures at all. Also if we were to add a section on Tamil cuisine, would it come under the culture section? -- Sundar June 28, 2005 06:36 (UTC)

Tamil recepients of Magsaysay Award

Moving the following list that an anon has recently added. If you want to have this information, please create a separate list of Tamil recepients of Magsaysay Award, but do not add them here. -- Sundar 04:01, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Aruna Roy, Chennai
Jockin Arputham, Bangalore
Dr Shanta, Chennai
Dr MS Swaminathan, Chennai
MS Subbalakshmi, Madurai
TN Seshan, Chennai

New revisions

How's the edit look? Hope I didn't cause any undue trouble to anyone by heavily editing a featured article right before it went up; there was just a lot I felt could be improved. And sorry if I reverted a few grammar fixes, I'm exhausted and there were a bunch of edit conflicts to deal with when I finished.

Also, I'll agree that "most Tamil Christians today are either Catholic or Protestant" is a really, really weird way to phrase that. It made me stop and think for a minute when I read it too. The only way I could think of to make that sentence not sound ridiculous is if you added some sort of statistic saying how many Tamil Christians are Catholic, etc. -Silence

WARNING

Certain idiotic individuals are repeatedly vandalising this page by putting an image of an erect penis at the top of the article, despite repeated attempts to stop them. could the moderators please get involved.

Would the moderators please remove the disgusting pictures of the penis from the history page..Even thought it is not listed in the page anymore, it still shows up in the history...please remove all references to the picture.

I'll look into it. Which picture are you talking about? User:Nichalp/sg 07:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

A small objection

At the begeninng of the article, the author states: "Unlike many ethnic groups, the Tamils have never been governed by a single political entity;" I do not agree, many (maybe most) ethnic groups have never been governed by a signle political entity. Consider for example Berbers, Kurds, Jews, Gypsies to name a few I can think of. I think this statement should be modified, or at least put in context.

Skander, Sep 24th 2005

Sure, please go ahead and change it. User:Nichalp/sg 08:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I think I disagree with removing it. First of all, the sentence simply says "Unlike many ethnic groups," not "Unlike most ethnic groups"; there are a lot of ethnicities, enough for "many" to not indicate anything like "almost all ethnicities." Second, the Tamils are noteworthy for historically being divided governmentally, but united linguistically, even if they are far from being the only ones; rephrase if you want, but don't remove the actual information provided. Third, all of those ethnicities have never been governed by a single political entity? What about (if you're willing to accept Biblical accounts at all) the united Twelve Tribes under Saul, David, Solomon? Or the theory that the Roma were once low-caste Hindus in India, possibly under one ruler?

But none of that matters overmuch; all the sentence says is "Unlike many ethnic groups," not "like no other ethnic groups". For the sentence to be valid, it's quasi-irrelevant whether there are other ethnic groups who have also never been governed by a single political entity; what matters most is that there are a significant enough number of ethnic groups who have ever been governed by one political entity for the word "many" to merit use. Check out List of ethnic_groups and decide for yourself. -Silence 12:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The picture on the main page is awful.

Really, that picture is racist and it portrays a whole group of people as persons who dance in colourful clothes. Change the picture to something more appropriate please. Lapinmies 09:05, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

What alternative do you have? User:Nichalp/sg 09:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

"Racist" is a bit strong, but yes. Though I'd also point out that the picture really isn't especially good; it looks like a drawing of some sort, and I'm not sure a featured article's central image should be an illustration unless the drawing is very famous or there are no better alternatives; I'd slightly prefer the image of the two girls at the top.

Of course, then we'll get people complaining about us portraying the Tamil people as all being adorable little girls... You can't teach people anything without offending somebody. -Silence 12:17, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

What? No serious mention of the politics of caste and class? Of separatism?

This article is sadly deficient in that it fails to address Tamils as Dalits, the racism of the caste system, the Tamils' refusal to accept it, and the ongoing struggle for independence from India of the TLF and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. Rather topical -- don't you think -- given the violence in Tamil Province and elsewhere in recent years?

You are welcome to draft something. The original author is away till Monday, so please feel free to add some text here. User:Nichalp/sg 12:31, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. No can do. I've got a couple of deadlines this weekend, and I'm off to the anti-war demonstration downtown. It's a shame no one thought to include any of this, IMO, really obvious stuff in the article before it made FAS, and I don't usually check the upcoming front page pieces, so I'm also at fault. Peace. deeceevoice 13:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed that politics of caste and class and separatism needs a serious mention. However, we should take care that the article continues to use summary style. Will try to work on that. -- Sundar 13:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The Tamil Eelam struggle is mentioned quite prominently in the section on Sri Lankan Tamils and on "Institutions", and has been from the beginning. There are references to the Self-respect movement (Dravidian Movement) and its mission to fight casteism in the section on "Institutions", which have been there since the beginning. In my opinion (others may of course disagree), given the need to keep to summary style, this is adequate. for this article. A more detailed consideration of the question of the introduction of casteism into Tamil culture is, in my opinion, better placed in an article on Tamil history. And, of course, the biggest discussion will have to be in the article on the Self-respect Movement itself, which is at the moment an extremely tiny stub. Separatism in Tamil Nadu has not been a serious issue since the DMK's decision in the 1960s to suspend its demand for independence, and I don't think it's major enough to be mentioned here (although it probably deserves a mention in the article on TN, and perhaps even an article of its own). --- Arvind 14:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC).

Tamil fonts

The article is excellent -- congrats to all who have contributed. I am having trouble with fonts, tho: for example my current settings seem unable to handle things like ̲

So would someone pls advise me? and maybe others are having the same problems... I am in IE version 6+, with Tools > Internet Options > fonts set to Latin-based. But when I try to change this to Tamil, either Arial Unicode MS or Latha, the browser doesn't appear to accept it: for the former I press OK and instantly it reverts back to Latin-based, for the latter after I press OK it grinds for a bit but then also reverts to Latin-based. And I continue to see a programming box instead of the proper character.

--Kessler 16:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Have you tried using another browser. Its hard to say where the problem lies. User:Nichalp/sg 18:01, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'll try another one on Monday... I have an old Netscape version in here somewhere, altho I'll have to update that... But I think anything in Misplaced Pages really has to conform to IE: that's 94% of the user market still.

My IE browser has no problem reading Tamil at other sites: for example, ]. So no, I don't think it is IE. Seems to me that it is a settings problem, either that or the syntax used here in the article is wrong -- I see that none of the Tamil comes through, from this article, although Unicode Tamil on plenty of other sites online works fine.

--Kessler 21:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

It looks ok on my IE. There's hardly any Tamil on the page to begin with, and I'm sure there would be more complaints if it wasn't rendering properly. I can't pinpoint the exact fault. User:Nichalp/sg 06:29, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The article uses a large number of unicode diacritics to transliterate Tamil into the roman script. I strongly suspect that is what is causing the boxes. Arvind 21:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Tamil language 'Crisis'

The article seems to ignore the fact that there is a reduction in the number of people who speak Tamil. It is on a decline in Singapore (added that) and not many Tamils speak Tamil well. Same is the situation in Chennai, with English overtaking Tamil slowly. Many of my friends can't read or write Tamil, despite staying in Chennai. I'm not sure about the stats but this number seems to be big. - Bnitin 23:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

division of tamil history, etc.

is the division of tamil history into pre-classical, classical ... etc standard? it it based on literary history? in the article, the dividing dates between the periods is a little hazy. can this be fixed?

i think a shorter summary of the spenser wells study will suffice. for instance, the mention of Kalahari bushmen having the "oldest DNA" and "earliest significant wave of human emigration from Africa was..." are not particularly relevant. retain perhaps only the final line?

the caption for the image of the gopuram(?) of the madurai meenakshi temple shld be labelled as such? i.e. as gopuram. in the text, temple "spires" are mentioned, but not identified as Gopuram.

where in the article is the right place to introduce the pejorative(?) label "tambi"? :)

Doldrums 04:14, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Division of Tamil history into pre-classical, classical, ... is inline with the literary history. The dividing dates are hazy as it's difficult to clearly demarcate the periods.

I'm not able to summarise the Wells study info without affecting the flow. Anyone is welcome to do that.

I've fixed the image caption.

I don't know of the "label" tambi. The Tamil language word tambi literally means younger brother and rarely used as an euphemism(?) for penis. However, I do not know of any context in which it's associated with Tamil people and/or is pejorative? Please explain. -- Sundar 13:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Some North Indians refer to Tamilians as Tambis, but it's not too popular. Madrasis is more commonly used to refer to all South Indians. Tambi is apparently used for Tamilians. -- Bnitin

Tamil Population Figures - References???

300 000 Tamils in UK, USA, and Canada. Where is this data from? Are these guess estimates? What is the basis for these assertations? --Natkeeran 05:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Thanneer added those in this edit. You can ask at his talk page. If there is no response, we can revert to the previous figures. -- Sundar 05:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Sundar. I am just skeptical about the numbers because, there are only two sources for this data, Ethnologue and Country stats. Both need to be cross checked if possible. Country stats are not always easy to interpret. For instance, some stats about Tamil population in Sri Lanaka indicate that it is around 3.5%, which is grossly misleading. Because, that does not include Tamil people under LTTE controlled area, that not include Tamils of Indian origin, and that does not include Muslims who speak Tamil. Another grossly misleading figure is 300 000 Tamils in Canada. There are no official stats supporting this claim. The last official figure about people speaking Tamil at home is 92 010 , in 2001. Usually upto 200 000 Tamils are thought to be living in Canada, and it seems that figure has been pushed upwards to 300 000 within year or two, which is highly unlikely. Similar issues arise in many other countries, including India. However, stats about Tamils living in Singapore, and Norway are quite readily available. This is why an effort to compile such stats in Tamil Misplaced Pages is stalled as well. Anyway, I’ll pose the above question in the user page and wait for the response. --Natkeeran 14:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Tamil Cultural Differences in Sri Lanka

I propose a section about the variations of the Tamil cultural groups in Sri Lanka beyond Ceylon Tamil vs Indian Tamil. The Tamils have a different culture based on whether they are from Jaffna area, Colombo, or Trincomalee (east coast).

Please do so - this article has been written almost entirely by people from Tamil Nadu, and we don't really know enough about these differences. There is an article on Sri Lankan Tamils, which has really improved in recent times but could probably use more information. The best way forward may be to add very brief information here, and detailed information in the article on Sri Lankan Tamils. Arvind 15:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Tamil cuisine

How about adding Sri Lankan Tamil cuisine to the already established cuisine category? There are some differences with Indian Tamil cuisine.

Please add more details to Tamil cuisine article. Currently it has practically nothing specific to Sri Lankan/Malaysian/Canada Tamil cuisines. -- Sundar 09:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Tamil Language (Dialects?)

Some discussion within the language section needs to consider that Sri Lankan Tamils speak a different dialect of Tamil than people from India.

That probably belongs in the Tamil language article. The differences between the Tamil spoken in northern and southern Tamil Nadu are nearly as big as the differences between southern Tamil Nadu and Jaffna, and there are a number of similarities between southern Vellala dialects and Jaffna Tamil. And, of course, Batticaloa Tamil is quite different from Jaffna Tamil. If you feel like starting an article on Tamil dialects, that would be more than welcome! -- Arvind 15:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Would love to see that article come up. -- Sundar 08:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

See stub Sri Lankan Tamil dialects RaveenS

Tamil Guiness Record Holders

I am looking for information on a Sri lankan Tamil Guiness record holder who was active during the pre 1983 days. He died either swimming across the Palk Straights or soon after. I have not being able to locate his name. Please help. RaveenS 1:15, 1 March 2006

Could you be thinking of V.S. Kumar Anandan? He held several records in his day including for the quickest crossing of the Palk straits although - if I remember - he met his end in 1984 trying to swim across the English Channel rather than the Palk Straits. -- Arvind 21:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes that's him. Thanks RaveenS 8:52, 3 March 2006 (EST)

Population numbers proposal

As of today (March 9, 2006), the population numbers given in the infobox are too many for that context. We should retain only those numbers with sufficient references. Also, only countries where either there are significant number of people (in millions) or their population percentage is significant (>10%) shall be mentioned in the infobox. Other numbers can be given in an appropriate section or in an article like Tamil diaspora. -- Sundar 06:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Which among the numbers shall we retain? -- Sundar 11:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I vote for India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, and Singapore (Canada, South Africa: optional). - Cribananda 01:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree - India, Sri Lanka and Malaysia have populations in excess of a million, and it is an official language of Singapore. We might perhaps consider adding "Diaspora" and lumping the other countries together. I would also suggest reverting to the numbers which the Ethnologue gives, unless we can find some sources for the higher numbers that have crept in. -- Arvind 12:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

As a first step, I've removed the entries except those mentioned above. -- Sundar 12:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Myths surrounding the Tamil people

As a proud Tamil, I feel the need to reiterate my opinion on certain myths surrounding the Tamil people:

Firstly, I don't agree that Tamils are Dalits. Culture is horizontal, caste is vertical. Tamils are Tamil by culture, and Dalits are Dalits by caste. The Tamil people include people of all the castes, including Brahmins.

Secondly, I don't believe that caste was Brahmin-initiated. It was a king, Manu, who initiated the caste system, and kings are Kshatriyas.

Thirdly, the picture of two Tamil girls on the article creates an impression that Tamils are uniformly dark and rural-looking. I would advise you to have a picture which is more representative of Tamils (who are of varying colours and appearances).

I'm not sure if you're commenting on the correct article. This article does not say that Tamils are Dalits, nor does it discuss the origins of caste apart from saying that it was institutionalised during the Pallava period (which is a historical fact). As far as the pictures of the two little girls go, there is also a picture of a Brahmin couple lower down in the article. It's going to be pretty hard to get a picture of Tamils of all hues, and I think having different pictures does the job just as well. -- Arvind 16:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I strongly object to the suggestion that the picture of the two girls should be replaced, because it may represent Tamils as dark. On average Tamils are dark people compared to North Indians, and if the picture reflects that fact, that is accurate. --Natkeeran 21:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Natkeeran, the issue is a dead one now. :) -- Sundar 06:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"Tamils" and "Tamilians"

I removed a rather odd statement that Tamils in India find being called "Tamil" insulting, and prefer to be called "Tamilians". This is simply not true. I'd like to see the source whoever inserted this claim is relying on. -- Arvind 16:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Flag and interwikis

I'm the one who inserted this flag into the article - I put it there largely to fill the need for pictures and to have something at the top of the template. Neither of these applies any longer, and I personally think we should remove it from this article because I don't think it's notable enough to merit inclusion in *this* article (as opposed to an article on Tamil nationalism or some such topic).

Also, bizarrely enough, the interwiki link to the Sinhala wikipedia seems to lead to the article on Sinhala people. I can see why someone might have thought it funny, but it really should go after someone who can read Sinhala takes a look at the link. -- Arvind 00:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

True, I accepted the inclusion of the flag not without a pinch of salt. Let me go ahead and remove it. Regarding Sinhala wiki, let's approach some Sinhalese Wikipedian. -- Sundar 07:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Martial arts

It was the arts of Kuttuvarisai and Varma Kalai which is believed to be learnt by Daruma Bodhidarma who travelled to China.

One editor says Bodhidharma was a master of Kuttuvarisai and Varma Kala, another says he was a master of Kalarippayattu, another says he was a master of Vajra Mushti, one editor even says that Bodhidharma was a master of Gatka. If all of these editors are to be believed, what Indian martial arts was Bodhidharma not a master of?

How about saying "x says that Bodhidharma was a master of y" instead of "Bodhidharma was a master of y".

This way, one makes a cited, verifiable statement instead of an uncited, unverifiable one.
--JFD 02:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

black

The Black people article is lumping Tamil together with American blacks. American blacks user:deeceevoice are saying that Tamil people are really Africans that had been walking along to Tamil Nadu.

Tamil people cannot be classified as blacks as we range from dark brown to olive in colour.Our facial features are clearly different from africans.

That user user:deeceevoice must be an afrocentric.Afrocentrics ideas dont have any base.They even claim that Jesus was black. So just ignore those morons.

Who put the pic of those kids?

who ever put that pic there should remove it, its not like all tamil kids look like those.

Population Estimate

The estimate for the number of Tamils is around 10 years outdated! Can we find a more recent census?

Ayyavazhi

I think that can be mentioned in the article with a NPOV. Doctor Bruno 12:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Guys, please stop revert warring on this. It needs to be resolved - find a way to discuss and resolve the issue with comments from people instead of going back and forth. Cribananda 20:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I've many time told them and am ready for the discussion though it is of no use because i may have to repeat what I told earlier. And i noted in every my reverts, to discuss . But they don't and reverted and even I was blocked for 24 hours for violating WP:3RR. Please see the edits and edit summaries i wrote here

Regarding Ayyavazhi, Three districts are declared as a Holiday for an Ayyavazhi festival. Then how it become unnotable in a Tamil Society article? Asuume if three states declare holiday for a festival of a particular socity named XXX. Was that XXX society unnotable in a article about India society?

Also in this case of Ayyavazhi I've cited with university sorces for the thousands of Ayyavazhi worship centers. Even Few thousands and few syrian orthodoxies are noted. But they are refusing in Keeping Ayyavazhi. I don't know why. - Paul 21:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Given the list of different religions followed by Tamils already present in the article, I don't see how Ayyavazhi can be excluded in good faith. Can the people removing mention of Ayyavazhi please explain their reasoning on the talk page? —Hanuman Das 23:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see the latest government policy in Southern Districts regarding this Doctor Bruno 00:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Please note that the Hindu article states very briefly that 4 March 2006 is a holiday. Please note that per governement offices are closed on Saturday. --BostonMA 00:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

If Ayyavazhi is mentioned, then it would seem that all other sects should be mentioned as well. Otherwise, we would be giving undue weight to one sect. Is it appropriate to mention all sects in given state within that state's overview article? I am inclined to think not. For a related discussion see Talk:India/Ayyavazhi --BostonMA 00:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you say sect rather than religion. I've browsed some of the Ayyavazhi writ. Unless the translation is wrong, it self-identifies as a religion. —Hanuman Das 00:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

~~(edit conflict)~~There are many sects which self-identify as a religion and claim to be "the true Hinduism". However, I find it difficult not to view a denomination of which its adherants claim that it is the true Hinduism to not be a sect of Hinduism. --BostonMA 00:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is with the notability and verifyability criteria. Ayyavazhi followers may claim their faith to be a separate religion. They may even cite a research paper to support that. However the fact remains that this is not a recognised religion by the Government of India. This religion has dozens and dozens of articles in WP, all created by a single user. He has also inserted links in hundreds of articles. However if you go searching for independent sources, both online and off, you will be hard pressed to find any supporting the claims of the articles in terms of its spread and the number of adherants. There is nothing wrong in keeping the dozens of articles on this faith, but my problem is the incessant proletyzing by this user. the question is is it notable enough to be included in a summary article dealing with the whole ethnic group? IMHO it is not. Thanks Parthi 00:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see what the Indian Government has to do with it at all. Maybe it is because I was born in the U.S., but it is my understanding that whether or not something is a religion is determined by its followers. The government may recognize it or not as it wills, but that has nothing to do with anything except the government - it does not change whether a religion is a religion or not. The article on it says it is a religion. It also says it is monotheistic, which immediately differentiates it from Hinduism. I'm not necessarily arguing that the text about the holiday should be included, but I think it should be included in the list of religions of the Tamil people. Allowing the govt to determine what is and is not a religion seems to me to be the ultimate in foolish abdication of responsibility! —Hanuman Das 05:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't let the government dictate as to which religion to include here, however it is a good measure of the notability of the religion. The only difference IMO between Ayyavazhi and any other minor religion that may be practiced by a small minority of people is that one of the Ayyavazhi follower has the knowledge of WP and its power and the time to create these dozens of pages which have proliferated across the internet space into the thousands of mirror pages, thereby giving it a numerically higher presence in the web. Thanks Parthi 05:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It is an incorrect view of Hinduism to identify it as polytheistic. Monotheism is a very strong trend in Hinduism, perhaps the strongest trend. According to monotheistic views, there is a single god who has many forms, or aspects. Not so different from the Christian trinity. So no, Ayyavazhi does not differ from other sects of Hinduism on this point. I am not contesting that Ayyavazhi is a religion, however, I don't think sect and religion are necessarily exclusive of one another. --BostonMA 14:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Having read this discussion and the extensive one on Talk:India/Ayyavazhi, I guess a consensus was reached not to include this. (My two cents - Notable, may be, but not worth a mention in the article. In some ways - I'm not really equating the two - a bit likeJedi). Cribananda 03:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all I am telling Ayyavazhi is not a sect. Right from the beginning the LMS missionarries placed them in a Triangular venue in Travancore where Christianity (LMS based protestant as majority and a very few chatholics) Hinduism and Muthukuttyism (Ayyavazhi) are the main players. They see Ayyavazhi exctly away from Hinduism and moved hard against Ayyavazhi because it stood right against the fast spread of Ayyavazhi. The same LMS reports itself says about the fast spread of Ayyavazhi spreading equal to them, in Travancore where the LMS highest succesive venue in India. Don't think that LMS report reports are not valid in Ayyavazhi matter. LMS acts as a anti-ayyavazhi agent and called Vaikundar and Ayyavazhi as satanic agents. So their social views towards Ayyavazhi is completely acceptable.

Again i come to know that the 'Temple entry aggitation' commonly seen fact in 19th century Travancore remain untouched by Ayyavazhi followers. All the denominations of Hinduism (saivite vaishnavite etc..) participated in it without sect varriations. But Ayyavazhi don't belive in entering to Hindu temples. They have worship centers of their own. If they've seen them among other Hindus they might have participated as other sects do. But they palce them significantly outsite Hinduis. Not only this there are many to tell about the diverted nature of Ayyavazhi from Hinduism.

The above mentioned facts says about the deviated sociology of Ayyavazhi right from the mid-ninteenth century. And in belief related matters completely different. Hinduism as accepting other hindu scrptures of other denominations can't accept Akilam mainly because it says all previous (Hindu) scriptures had gone awry.

Like other Hindu denominations Ayyavazhi doesn't forms a part of Hinduism and vary from others in minor issues. But says original Hinduism had dead. If I say that 'XXX' religion is dead. Then how would i be considered as a follower of that XXX religion?

I was not telling all these of my own. But with university papers as citations. And have repeatedly cited all of them many many times. Weather it's true or not, Iam not claiming that Ayyavazhi is "true Hinduism" here in wikipedia. But only saying Ayyavazhi as seperate from Hinduism backing with university papers. The citations mentioned here are not self identities but independent third party University papers.

Also User:Venu62 noted that "They may even cite a research paper to support that". The reserch papers are from two leading Universities in Tamil Nadu. Are the university research is considered invalid in wikipedia? Also one user can't write many articles here in wikipedia? The article about the ethnic group deals with the 'religion' issues in Tamil Nadu and so the religion with holiday for its festival in three districts is definitely notable. Also i cited already for the thousands of worship centers across south India with University papers. It show that Ayyavazhi is 'not so minor' as highlighted by you in every discussions.

As told by user User:Hanuman Das, weather or not the India govt recognise that. it doesn't matter. But the university papers are really valid much more than that. May be the Ayyavazhi article find a place to not the lack of official recognition. And it was already noted two times in Ayyavahi article. Fist in the introduction and then in the controversy section. Also in every cross reference it was noted as the first sentence.

Also if it is not notable then why it is not appropriate to mention in the article? Easpacially because three southern districts are declared as a holiday for an Ayyavazhi festival. Neary 9 % of the population of Tamil Nadu is experiencing the holiday. See even few thousand jains and very few syrian orthodoxies are mentioned. And see that few thousand Jains are even added in the Tamil people template in the article. But Ayyavazhi have no right even to find a place even in the article?

Ayyavazhi differ from Hinduism religiously very much than it do so sociologically. See the discussion in Talk:India/Ayyavazhi - Paul 18:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Paul Raj, in my opinion, posting very long comments, such as this one here, and the one that you posted on the India page makes discussion difficult. Rather, when someone makes a short point, I think it is best to respond succinctly just to that point. Could you please name one property, that you believe that Ayyavazhi has that is shared by no Hindu sect. Then let me respond to that one property. And let us continue discussing that one thing until we have some agreement upon it. Sincerely, --BostonMA 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I see now that Ayyavazhi is mentioned in the religion section, in fact near the beginning of the section. I agree with others that it does not need to be covered in any more detail in this article. —Hanuman Das 19:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Also the Ayya Vaikunda Avataram should not be excluded. Because it was not like other local holidays which was usually for one district. It should be seen very next to State holidays since this holiday was for three districts. Since other festivals without holidays such as Thaipusam and Adipperukku are noted apart from the major festivals Deepavali and Pongal. - Paul 19:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Many to tell but as you told so I say one thing. Religiously, Akilam says all Hindu elements (including that of all denominations) are true till the birth of Kali Yuga. But then onwards it had gone awry and only Akilam should be followed.(this was the issue i previously mentioned in the discussion page of India and so for the detailed discussion about it see there. Thanks - Paul 19:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see here for the thousands of worship centers here Grand sacle is not point of views because three districts are declared Holidays. Do a holiday be declared to one or two people's celebrations? Also Daily thanthi is a leading news paper in Tamil Nadu. I've cited the paper Edition and name published date. Also it was cited from the Tamil Misplaced Pages, here translated here.

Also please discuss before the reverts. Thanks - Paul 07:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ayyavazhi POV

Paul Raj/Vaikunda Raja please stop inserting your POV into this article regarding Ayyavazhi worship centres. Whether the celebrations are of a 'Grand Scale' or of a 'Stupendous scale' is POV of the person writing it. There is no need to insert such adjectives into this article. There is no other instances of such superfluous glorification in this article. Be happy with the mention of Ayyavazhi in this Featured article, eventhough I have strong reservations against mentioning this minor un-recognised religion. If you revert again I will ask for a RFC on this matter.Thanks Parthi 07:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have cited with university papers for the number of worship centers. My queastion is simple, Will the government declare a holiday for one or two peoples's celebrations? Also, The local holiday is cited from a leading news paper of Tamil Nadu . Here is no place for the POV. And i may decide to remain happy or not for anything done here. I am ready to scan and present the news paper report. Offline notabilities are impotant. Also, Please don't make personal attacks.

Also after these citations, some two users decided to format out the sentences moving away from the path of citations. They collectively reverted 4 times and If I revert with citations, they say they will complain.

Others please comment. - Paul 09:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

My opinion

General Comment. There are dozens of local festivals like Feast of Our Lady of Snows (Aug 5 - Local Holiday in Thoothukudi District), Nellaiappar Car festival (local holiday in Tirunelveli District), Nagaraja festival (local holiday in Kanyakumari DIstrict), Kallagar festival (Madurai District). So if we start to include all the functions, just because a local holiday has been declared, that will become a big list. That can be included in an article like "Religious festivals of Tamil Nadu", but I think that such a list is beyond the scope of this article on "Tamil People"

Dear Paul, I am living in Southern Tamil Nadu. While I can see that the Ayyavazhi function has been recognised and is being observed in Thoothukudi, Tirunelveli and Kanyakumari and that the community and the celebrations have become notable, I am still having doubts over the use of word "Grand Scale" If at all something is celebrated in Grand Scale in Southern Tamil Nadu it is the Kulasekharapattinam Dasara. I fully support the inclusion of Ayyavazhi, and I can verify that the functions are celebrated and government has taken note of the increasing popularity, but as of today (year 2006), i don't think it deserves the word Grand Scale in an Encyclopedia. I agree that Ayyvazhi is a religion. But I have few questions. The article does not mention about Ramzan or Bakrid. Do you say that more people celebrate this function compared to Ramzan or Bakrid. OK !! You can tell me that Ramzan and Bakrid or common all over the world and that Ayyavazhi is the local phenomenon. I understand, but I hope that you too understand that Grand Scale is not NPOV.

Dear Venu, While I agree with your stand regarding this matter, I am having reservations about your comment regarding daily thanthi being non-verifiable. How can you claim the newspaper with 1 crore readership as non-verifiable. Can you please explain Doctor Bruno 12:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean that daily thanthi newpaper is non notable nor unacceptable. I mearly meant that the offline paper is not easily verifiable. My language might have reflected my frustrations with this matter and I apologise fro that. Parthi 19:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. That settles it. Keep the good work going on. Doctor Bruno 20:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with User:Doctor Bruno

But presently, the article give high importance to festivals centered on Tamil Nadu or Tamil people, and seemingly so the reasons for exclusion of muslim festivals. Ayyavazhi is a religion centered mostly on Tamil. I think the Thaippusam and Adipperukku are not even holidays and still mentioned in the article because it is tamil based. Ayya Vaikunda Avataram is that of a Tamil based religion. Also the head quarters (Swamithoppe), which receives a high religious Gathering for this festival is in Tamil Nadu. So definitely it deserves a place in the section.

May be the phrase ' grand scale ' not fit here. But the present mentioning, "The Ayyavazhi Festival Ayya Vaikunda Avataram is celebrated in the southern districts of Kanyakumari, Tirunelveli and Thoothukudi." says that this festival is only celebrated in these three dists. But as per the earlier presented citations, for 'thousands of worship centers across south india', this festivals are celebrated also outside this dists and across south India.

So as per my view the sentence should be reframed. Some thing like this, "The Ayya Vaikunda Avataram is celebrated by Ayyavazhi's across the state, mostly in the south." - Paul 00:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Your preferred sentence is self-contradictory. - Parthi 00:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned that the present text show that the celebrations are bounded within the border of those districts. But i've cited the presence of Ayyavazhi across the state and also beyond. I just told to mention it so. Also the text mentioned above is my preference. That's all. But a reframe needed to the present text as per the citations. Thanks - Paul 18:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Generally, why 'grand scale' cannot be used? This festival is not like other local holidays. First, it was not for one but for three districts. Secondly, this was not a temple festival, where people gather in one place in large number as, Feast of Our Lady of Snows, Nellaiappar Car festival, Nagaraja festival, Kallagar festival etc.. But Ayya Vaikunda Avataram is declared as a holiday not for people gathering in Swamithope, and the celebrations are not confined to Swamithoppe, But across the place where Ayyavazhi people live. But the car festival in Swamithoppe too attracts a huge crowd, and if it is declared as a holiday then it could be compared to other local Holidays since the celebrations are confined to Swamithoppe.

It is just as the difference between Diwali and Nagaraja festival in Kanyakumari district. while both are holidays here, the former is celebrated by all Hindus in their houses while the later is celebrated in only at Nagaraja Temple.

The celebrations in Swamithoppe during this festival is in high vein because of religious importance Swamithoppe earns from Akilam and Ayyavazhi ideology. The celebrations of the festival here is grand than any other parts in the country but still the celebrations took place across the whole worship centers through out the country. In Chennai and in Mumbai Ayyavazhi's celebrate the festival with processions. Also in Thiruchendur (where Ayya incarnated) the grand celebrations next to Swamithoppe.

So if users compare this festival with other local holidays and through reject the usage of the word 'grand scale' for this fest, then it is incorrect. Or can, 'celebrated grandly be used alternative to 'grand scale' ?

Any way the present format, "The Ayyavazhi Festival Ayya Vaikunda Avataram is celebrated in the southern districts of Kanyakumari, Tirunelveli and Thoothukudi." does not fit even as per the cited sources for the spread of Ayyavazhi beyond those areas. Please consider - Paul 19:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The current sentence is appropriate. - Parthi 21:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Parthi, I've explined above well, why the present sentence in not fit. How can you tell simply "The current sentence is appropriate." Iam telling once again, the current sentence will bring a false notion that the celebrations of this fest in confined to these three dists and not outside those areas. No Ayyavazhi's are living beyond these dists? Also what about the citations for the spaning of W.Centers across the country? - Paul 16:15, 20 December 2

Language, Ethnicity, and Tamil

Hello all,

I have noticed a sentence which contradicts itself in the next. Please read below:

The Tamil identity is primarily linguistic, although in recent times the definition has been broadened to include emigrants  
of Tamil descent who maintain Tamil cultural traditions, even if they no longer regularly speak the language. Tamils are  
ethnically, linguistically and culturally related to the other Dravidian peoples of the Indian subcontinent.

Should the first sentence be taken off? After all isn't Tamil an ethnicity as well? For example, if a couple from Japan had a child in the U.S., and the child born for the parents from Japan does not speak Japanese, is the child ethnically a Japanese or not? I know that sounds like a wierd question, but I just had to mention this. I think the second sentence is good though since Dravidian is a family of ethnicities as well as a family of languages primarily in Southern India. I also wanted to bring this up since there are others who have helped contribute to Tamil people, I would not want to make any edits without notifying anyone and having constructive dialogue. Regards.

Wiki Raja 10:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

REMOVE THE AFROCENTRICS QUOTES IN TAMILS PAGES-VANDALISM

Why there is quotes of Afrocentrics in the Tamils Page-Remove it once and for all!!!! Why should we have to quote afrocenntric quotes hereE.g Dops and Rushidis here.I have long noticed that tamils and tamil pages in wikipidia have been vandelised by Afrocentics or people who pretent to be afrocentrics. Even in the black peoples artices there was furious arguments by the afrocentrics to include tamils with them.THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR AFROCENTRIC IDEAS.please remove any association with the africans in the Pre-historic period in this article ASAP.Those dont have any base — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.136.100.93 (talk • contribs)

I introduced the information you're referring to, and it is accurate and sourced. Not only that, it is corroborated by mainstream historians and by objective fact. You cannot discredit information simply by labeling it "Afrocentrist" (or any other thing) without providing some sort of rationale why it is objectionable and should not be included. Hell, I learned 30+ years ago in a mainstream American classroom, in a white public school system that the ancient Dravidians of Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa were black, African peoples! There is ample evidence in the historical/archaeological, linguistic and genetic (DNA) record that supports these facts.

I'm sorry that such information offends you. It's tragic when people have bought into white supremacist lies and refuse to learn/accept their true history. There are, in fact, at least three types of Dravidians/Veddoid/Sudroid peoples of southern India: 1) the peoples to which Diop refers (similar to the peoples of the African Horn, with straight hair and narrow nasal indices, the so-called proto-Caucasoid, African blacks who later gave rise to Caucasian, or "white", peoples), who migrated out of Africa through the Levant; 2) the Africoid (Negrito types), who traveled a more southerly route and followed the sea coasts; and 3) the Australoid peoples indigenous to Africa (nowadays found, I believe, only in Iraq and the Saudi peninsula, who have remained there since ancient times, who also migrated from the Levant (the Habshis and others, who settled in the north of India) and, according to geneticist Spencer via a more southerly route (the Tamils) and went on to populate Australia and portions of Southeast Asia. Afrocentrist historians have been saying this for decades -- and now mainstream scholarship, finally beginning to free itself of old, white supremacist assumptions and racist propaganda and spurred on by science-based study and objective analysis, is finally catching up. Y Haplotype studies show a significant percentage of Australoid and Bantu lineages in southern India -- where many of the black populations migrated from Africa and remained, and to where others migrated, fleeing Aryan persecution.

I suggest you do some serious reading on the subject of your own history instead of engaging in meaningless ad hominem attacks.

Horen Tudu was born in Bangledesh into the Santhal tribal group but grew up in the USA. He is a researcher and staunch Pan Africanist who has written extensively about African descendants in the Indian subcontinent. Asked whether Dalits are aware of their African heritage, he told Black Britain: “I do believe that they are starting to understand that the upper caste function from the paradigm of the Indo Europeans and that the Dalits and the tribals themselves are indigenous and that the proto Australoids are African'.”

But aside from the Dalits, India’s tribal groups make up another 84 million of its population. Tudu told Black Britain: “When you come to the tribals there is absolutely no controversy regarding the race of these people. They are clearly, physically, Africoid, they are linguistically distinct, religiously distinct; you can connect their spiritual systems to the spiritual systems in Africa – there is no ambiguity there.”

I've provided a link to the web page, which includes information from Rashidi and Bangladeshi Horen Tudu -- and also a commentary on how Indians, Bangladeshis, and others have internalized, since ancient times, the virulent anti-black hatred of the Aryans, codified in the Brahmin caste system (and sensibly repudiated by the Tamil people because they are black peoples at the receiving end of the harsh injustices of caste and color discrimination), and who in modern times have continued to internalize white supremacist lies and values as self-loathing and color bias -- using bleaching creams and rejecting and discriminating in every way against those who are darker-skinned and less European-looking (the Bollywood syndrome), not unlike other people of color the world over. Read on -- if you dare.

Here's another link. Pay close attention to the section on "The African Presence in Asia." deeceevoice 04:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

To whom it may concern

To the anonymous user: This is not a place for personal abuse of other people's cultures. Please refrain from attacks and intolerant POVs towards other users and other users ethnic, religous, and/or national backgrounds. Thank you. Wiki Raja 23:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Am not attacking anyone but I feel I being a tamil is been attacked!.

Whats the point in quoting Afrocentric quotes here!.It is sure the work of some Afrocentrics.If you dont want me to remove :those then can some of you pls remove them.Dont we tamils have anything to say about ourselves??? Why quote some controverisal quotes????

--Vandh 01:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

In the first place there are no quotes which are "Arocentric". I am not saying that Tamils are directly African, or European, or Asian, or what not. Just like the people of Northern India are not considered Iranians from Iran, but they are related to the people of Iran. Likewise with the Tamils and other Dravidians, there are a lot of similarities between us(including myself who is also an ethnic Tamil) and the people of East Africa and Australia in certain physical features, customs, and religion.

As an educational pointer, before Hinduism was introduced to the early Dravidians our ancestors practiced Animism which was a form of nature worship by the early Nagas and Yakshas. Animism is also practiced amongst the aboriginals of Australia and in some parts of Africa. In southern India there have been found many types of weapons excavated called Valaris ] which resemble the boomerangs used in Australia. Also in certain parts of Kerala and Sri Lanka you will find aboriginal Veddas ] ].

These are facts that we cannot run away from, even if some of us are ashamed of it or not. As for putting sources in regards to the similarities the Dravidians share with the groups from Africa and Australia, there is nothing controversial about that. It almost sounds like in your messages that African culture is bad, negative, and perhaps inferior. Live and let live. We are all created equal even though we may all be of different ethnicities. Therefore, in my quotes, we are all one race, and that is the human race.

Lastly, Please refrain from attacks and intolerant POVs towards other users of different ethnic, religous, and/or national backgrounds. Thank you.

Wiki Raja 02:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Animisim is the primitive form of all religion in all parts of the world.All Ancient cultures still have some form of this. Hinduhism still have animism even today with Pantheon of gods.We all know that humans originated in Africa and moved to all parts of the world.So to say something like animisim and so say there is a link then there is a link to every other culture in the world.I am certainly not attacking anyone but to have Diops quote is totally Unnecessary here.I know that Veddas are similar to Aborigines but are Veddas tamils?.You have also mentioned that there are similar physical features,customs and religion. I cant find any customs that the tamils have in similarity with the Australian aborigines or the africans.Even the Jews have a similar culture like the tamils like the 'Poo punitha neerattu vila'.Puberty cerimony like the tamils.So are they similar to us?.You want to relate the valari with the boomerang but boomarang comes back to its owner but the valari doesnt only the shapes are simlilar.Even the greeks/romans had similar weapon like that(shape).I totally accept that all are one race that is the human race but in an article about tamils then it should be about tamils not how humans came to be tamils,english or Irish. --Vandh 04:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

If it would make you any happier, did you know that apart from the Tamils who have aboriginal or East African features, there are a few Tamils who were mixed with Marathi during the brief Maratha rule of parts of Northern Tamil Nadu? There are Black Tamils, Brown Tamils, Light Brown Tamils, Olive complection Tamils, I have even seen some Tamils with freckles (Anglo-Indian or Anglo-Tamils). There are also some Tamils with fair skin, features and light colored eyes due to intermarriage with other ethnic groups from Central and Northern India. Did you know that intermarriage has been practiced for over thousands of years? Also, that certain primitive customs tend to vanish over time when introduced to newer more advanced cultures? This not only happened in South India, but in various other parts of the world.

As for animism, there were different kinds around the world. The Hinduism we see today practiced by Tamils is a combination of the indigenous Animism beliefs and North Indian pantheon of gods. Also, Murugan worship and the body piercing rituals of Thai Pusam are primarily practiced by Tamils in India, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere. If you have any further issues, please notify Misplaced Pages Administration. Thank you. Wiki Raja 05:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

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