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Onceinawhile

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Onceinawhile

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

11Fox11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Onceinawhile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 02.01.21 Unilaterally closing RfC they started themselves, out of process. They then launch a RM, mass ping editors, and later vote against their own RM. Disruptive hijacking of RfC that was going against their position.
2. 05.01.21 Attacking User:Drsmoo by saying they have "double standards" and in a thinly veiled manner calling them racist.
3. 05.01.21 Attacking supporters of move of "whitewashing".
4. 01.01.21 Attack against User:Shrike.
5. 17.12.20 Attacking User:Drsmoo by saying they have "double standards", ghetto comparison.
6. 12.12.20 "Dripping from your words", thinly veiled accusation of racism against User:Reenem. Also Warsaw ghettot comparison.
7. 12.12.20 Attacking me with accusation of whitewashing. Holocaust (Warsaw ghetto) comparison.
8. 11.12.20 Attacking multiple editors with "whitewashing" accusation.
9. 03.12.20 Attacking User:Levivich, accusation of lying ("outright lie").
10. 02.12.20 Attacking User:Reenem and other editors with "consistent anti-Palestinianism" attack.
11. 01.12.20 Attacking User:Reenem, saying they are a "believer in fringe theories".
12. 01.12.20 Attacking User:AlmostFrancis, "ultra-nationalist propaganda".
13. 01.12.20 Attacking User:Reenem, "anti-Palestinian racism".
14. 01.12.20 Attacking User:Reenem, "I strongly suggest you stop making these unfounded racist assertions"
15. 01.12.20 Attacking User:Reenem, "denial of the occupation is anti-Palestinian racism".
16. 01.12.20 Attacking User:Reenem, "Denial of the occupation is pure anti-Palestinian racism. Ignorance is NOT an excuse."
17. 25.11.20 Attacking User:Jr8825 with racism accusations. Also makes comparisons to Nazi policy.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

04.12.20 Alert. 11.2020, created page with sanctions notice. 5.2020, initiated discussion on sanctions Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Stats on Talk:West_Bank_bantustans Stats on talk shows 173 edits and 67,739 bytes of text by Onceinawhile who is repeating themselves over and over again with toxic verbiage. They are also consistently comparing Israel/Palestine situation with Nazi/Holocaust concepts (, , ). This is inflammatory and derails discussion.

Edit made by Onceinawhile yesterday (5.1): "P.S. you may be aware that double standards are a well-known sign of racism, and I find your continued double standards to be disturbing.". This is a direct personal attack, "continued double standards", and a very thinly veiled accusation of racism cast at User:Drsmoo. 11Fox11 (talk) 09:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

If Onceinawhile's many offensive Holocaust comparisons and personal attacks against more than 5 editors are not sufficient, they are continuing their battleground conduct while this request is open:

1. filing a fake retaliatory report against me. This also contains a blatant falsehood, I have made over 1,000 mainspace edits yet Onceinwhile says I only made 186. This false statement is a personal attack.
2. canvassing for this report. A posting of little substance as most users, including Onceinawhile, edit these pages.
3. Attacking unnamed editors who raised objections.
4. Continued bludgeoning, forum post in which he in essence calls his opponents mad through the comparison.

All this while they are on their best behaviour, make concilliatory statements on user talk to User:El C and User:Awilley. Onceinawhile did not apologise for calling editors who disagree with him racist. Onceinawhile did not apologise for making offensive Holocaust comparisons. 11Fox11 (talk) 05:15, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

, I will also notify other named editors.

Discussion concerning Onceinawhile

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Onceinawhile

It is correct that I pointed out what I believe to be a number of anti-Palestinian statements made in the discussions over the last two months re West Bank bantustans; fortunately the heated nature of these discussions has mostly cooled in recent weeks. I never made such statements against the editors themselves, primarily because I consider the bar for calling a person racist to be extremely high, and I don't know anywhere near enough about anyone here to make such judgements. I have always been told that it is important to point out statements which are racist in nature, but it is not my place to judge whether there was intent. If doing so contravenes our rules I am happy to adjust my behavior, but I do not believe it does.

I must also note that the editor who posted this has not pointed out the dozens of accusations of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic made by editors in these same discussions, creating an odd picture of the discussions. Ironically, the post itself is simultaneously complaining about my characterization of some statements as anti-Palestinian whilst itself making numerous implied claims that some of my statements have been anti-semitic (that is the implication of the repeated reference to "comparisons", which I explained at one of the comments posted above ). If we could have a moratorium on unnecessary accusations of anti-this and anti-that, I think that would be better, but the important thing is that both sides are treated equally.

Onceinawhile (talk) 08:53, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@El C: OK I will go through and provide the evidence. Let me start by pointing out that the quote you highlight was simply a rhetorical mirroring of this comment from Drsmoo: P.S. I find the repeatedly regurgitated invocation of Jewish-related analogies like Pogrom and Warsaw Ghetto to be disturbing, to which I was responding. I am simply using this mirror to point out that these claims can be made by both sides. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:03, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@El C: I have spent some time going through this. I can explain further but I will need more time.

The edits which the editor pulled out were made over a two month period since my creation of the West Bank bantustans article. The editor who posted this AE, a new account with mostly semi-automated edits, has made their first-ever AE submission with the quality of AE formatting that is beyond me, and I have been here for over a decade. It is also a misrepresentative list (see below); in the two month period I have found only three instances of mutual trading of anti-this and anti-that accusations, including with the original poster themself.

I think the edits below have been misrepresented in the commentary above, and hopefully can be ignored:

• #1: This was simply following due procedure, as confirmed at ANI
• #3: The AfD and two alternate move names proposed have one thing in common, to whitewash the word bantustan out of the title. I am not aware that the word whitewash is unacceptable, but open to being proven wrong.
• #4: I am trying to encourage this editor to actually follow through on his frequent attacks on my work (over many years) with constructive debate. It has nothing to do with this topic.
• #5: Nothing here
• #8: Included a clear statement that I was not commenting on intent
• #9: Perhaps “lie” (which can imply intent) would have been better replaced with “falsehood”; I do not believe there was intent
• #11: This was a comment on a specific theory proposed which is definitely fringe; perhaps it could have been better worded but the implication that I was commenting only on the theory itself was very clear
• #12: That is the only kind of source which would include the argument that was being made
• #17: No accusations made

I have pointed out anti-Palestinian statements in three conversations:

• #2 this was a mirroring of Drsmoo’s attack, making a rhetorical point about equal treatment
• #7 I don't think this was an attack, but rather a question and an attempt to generate discussion. It was followed up with an accusation of racism by the original poster here: I remind you that the IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.”… Finally, User:Onceinawhile, your repeated comparisons to the Nazi policy… are inappropriate. This is the point re "implied claims that some of my statements have been anti-semitic"; this is what the original poster is referring to with their comments above ...ghetto comparison... Also Warsaw ghettot comparison... Holocaust (Warsaw ghetto) comparison... Also makes comparisons to Nazi policy... They are also consistently comparing Israel/Palestine situation with Nazi/Holocaust concepts.
• #6, 10, 13-16 This was a single conversation, which got sidetracked into denial of the Palestinian occupation.

Since I created this article, being responsible for the choice of the title, I have been subject to a barrage of on-and-off wiki harassment.

To address the claims of antisemitism or anti-Israel: (1) This article, and the title which I chose, does not claim that Israel is an apartheid state - which I do not believe it is (and have repeatedly stated as such). The article and title simply sets out that the situation in the West Bank is most commonly referred to as Bantustans, which may have been a component of apartheid but cannot logically be extrapolated to make the wider claim; (2) I have not and would not make comparisons to Nazi policy, nor would I claim that the historical situations or policies were similar. The point made re ghettos and pogroms is about the use of foreign loanwords with negative connotations, and how we rightly allow them across the encyclopedia.

Regarding my point above that "the editor who posted this has not pointed out the dozens of accusations of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic made by editors in these same discussions, creating an odd picture of the discussions". Those accusations include (there are more at the discussions but I do not have time now to go through further):

• 20:08, 5 January 2021, Drsmoo diff: “P.S. I find the repeatedly regurgitated invocation of Jewish-related analogies like Pogrom and Warsaw Ghetto to be disturbing”
• 15:08, 2 January 2021, IP diff: "Shalom. You’ve been revealed as an antisemite. How does that feel?"
• 08:12, 12 December 2020, 11Fox11 diff: “I remind you that the IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.”… Finally, User:Onceinawhile, your repeated comparisons to the Nazi policy… are inappropriate."
• 16:39, 3 December 2020, Adoring nanny diff: “is anti-semitic to boot”
• 21:14, 24 November 2020, Bearian diff: “non-racist, as to opposed the current name”
• 09:26, 15 November 2020, Île flottante diff: “purely seeks to express an anti-Israel bias”
• Plus two off-wiki instances of harassment which I would be happy to share privately.

Onceinawhile (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @El C: the comments by 11Fox11 and Drsmoo were about IHRA's reference to "comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis", which was clearly not what has been going on here. These comments "invocation... disturbing" and juxtaposition of IHRA with "your repeated comparisons to the Nazi policy" were very clear (and nonsense) accusations of antisemitism. Finally the other three comments above, "anti-semitic to boot", "...racist..." and "...anti-Israel..." were all directed at my choice of title. And the off-wiki ones were obviously even less veiled. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

PS - @El C: please could I ask you to be careful with your representation of things, as this is clearly a very sensitive area. You wrote "Editors are entitled to take exception to you drawing parallels between Israeli policy and that of Nazi Germany"; I have not at any point drawn parallels between Israeli policy and that of Nazi Germany. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:44, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @El C: that is not "comparison of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis". I am explicitly not commenting on or implying anything about policies or anything of the sort. It is about how non-neutral foreign loanwords are rightly used in key areas of Jewish (and South African) history. You can consistently see this from my other comments on this question: , , , , ).

Since you have rightly taken an interest in whether the claims of antisemitic behavior have any merit, could you please do the same for the claims of anti-Palestinian behavior?

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @El C: I can assure you that linguistic and etymological comparisons are not what the IHRA definition is referring to; I wrote the article on the definition a few years ago, and have read all the work of the authors. The point of that line in IHRA is that nothing can compare in scope, scale and horrificness to the actions of the Nazis against the Jews, and to imply as such is unacceptable. I did not and would not do that. There is and was no attempt to equate the policies - please could you kindly review the diffs and acknowledge this? I do not feel comfortable with leaving this point open.

To your question, the original post at the top of this thread includes a few moments where I have claimed certain statements to be anti-Palestinian. I propose not to repeat those, in order to save space. Here are a couple of good examples on the minimizing / denying the Palestine occupation and dispossession: When we get into talking about subjugation/oppression, it's a matter of great dispute. and What disappearing land? It was never under control of Palestinians. It was controlled by Jordan then by Israel. It was Israel who gave the Palestinians some of the land.. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:16, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi El C please could you help me understand your last comment? This AE was seemingly opened on the basis that I pointed out a few statements from other editors that I considered anti-Palestinian. How can the merits of this AE be considered without assessing whether my concerns were valid? Plus I believe you have just provided an assessment of whether concerns of antisemitism could be valid? Onceinawhile (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi El C the words "sign of racism" is no different to saying "IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes" (a direct quote from the original poster here). It is now commonplace to talk about signs of antisemitism per IHRA, so surely we can do the same about other forms of racism without censure? I don't consider either to be personal attacks, but if they are to be deemed as such we must be consistent.

Awilley would you mind taking the time to review the two-month discussion more broadly? As I point about above, much of those diffs were misrepresented and described out of context. There have been more than 1,000 edits made to the discussion pages, and I have worked extremely hard to find a consensus in difficult circumstances. I have been working in this area for a decade and I don't think you will find an editor more committed to actual collaboration; you can see my intentions in black and white from my having written the goals section at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Working in what may be our encyclopedia's most difficult topic area is a real challenge, and I simply ask that you take your time before reaching judgement here. Please also bear in mind that the editor here has only notified those editors on one side of the discussion here, so taking what you are hearing with a pinch of salt is reasonable.

Onceinawhile (talk) 00:33, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi El C, thanks for bearing with me here; I think I have a way to explain what I am getting at. See these two comments side by side:

• Comment directed at me: P.S. I find the repeatedly regurgitated invocation of Jewish-related analogies like Pogrom and Warsaw Ghetto to be disturbing This was clearly building on an earlier comment that I remind you that the IHRA working definition of antisemitism includes "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• My response: P.S. you may be aware that double standards are a well-known sign of racism, and I find your continued double standards to be disturbing.

I consider them to be exactly the same, primarily because I literally wrote my comment as a rhetorical mirror - i.e. it was intended to match what Drsmoo had just said to me. It was not written to be a personal attack, which I hope you can see from the mirroring. Context is everything here, and I realize that I could have been clearer here so as not to be misinterpreted. Onceinawhile (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi El C (I am sparing you a ping), thanks for explaining. I agree that the mirroring was a "strong" response to a comment that I objected to, and I hope you now agree that my response was not a personal attack (in our terminology) as the point of my comment was not to suggest anything about the editor but to draw the editor's attention to the fact that I did not appreciate their comment and show that just rhetorical devices can work both ways. I could have and should have done it more elegantly.

On your response to Zero, it seems that you are saying that editors can freely make charges of antisemitism, because there exists a formal definition of what constitutes antisemitism, but cannot freely make charges of other forms of racism (because no other form of racism has a formal definition). I don't think most editors would consider that to be a reasonable position for us to take. Onceinawhile (talk) 02:12, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

El C ok, thank you for continuing to engage on this. I realize it is painful. Whatever the admins conclude here, I would like to learn from it. At the moment I am still confused as to where the line should be drawn on pointing out other editors' potentially racist statements. I believe you have suggested that in one comment where I have pointed this out it constituted a personal attack, but in all(?) the others where such claims were made against me, it did not. So I think I understand your conclusion but I do not understand your reasoning. It seems you are not saying that no-one should be able to say that another editor's statement could be racist; that it is ok in certain circumstances. Perhaps the missing piece of the puzzle is notsomuch your views on my comment to Drsmoo, which you have set out, but on why the comments by Drsmoo, 11Fox11 and the three editors who claimed that my choice of title was racist were all not personal attacks. If you have the time to comment on each of those it would help me understand your conclusion on my comment more clearly. Onceinawhile (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate Levivich having taken the time to dig out the fact that I explicitly told Reneem in our little tangent discussion that "I am assuming good faith in terms of your intent". Onceinawhile (talk) 19:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Zero0000 I also made that same resolution many years ago; the analogies are not accurate and it's simply too sensitive a part of history. It's just not necessary. I have tried to track back my train of thought here; it seems that I started making the linguistic point about ghettos and pogroms generically (, ) but at some point figured I needed a specific example. Unfortunately we do not have a single example of an article about a place entitled "ghetto" that was not in Italy (needed to be outside Italy for the loanword point to work) and that were not during the Holocaust. So I went for Warsaw, as the most well known, and at some point I condensed my arguments so that the separation I had tried to maintain became less clear. I should have noticed it and just picked a different analogy. Onceinawhile (talk) 02:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Awilley to try to respond to your request, as briefly as possible:

• Of the diffs that have been brought, per my comment above at 18:50 6 January 2021 the majority of these are not relevant. I have set out my assessment of #1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 11, 12 and 17 above; if you disagree I would be keen to understand more.
• Of the remaining three exchanges, which I think form the nub of this AE, as I have explained above these were mutual exchanges which could have been worded better. There was no intent for these to be personal attacks, and I don't believe they were understood to be. I have explained the rhetorical mirroring points above re Drsmoo and 11Fox11 (we were effectively warning each other that certain comments could be interpreted in certain ways) and my similar but much longer tangent discussion with Reneem included a clear statement that "I am assuming good faith in terms of your intent", which I should probably have repeated elsewhere. On this question of rhetorical mirroring, surely we should either carefully judge the merits of both sets of claims, or neither. If the merits of my claims are assessed and deemed to be slim, then I would like to learn from it. Per my conversation with El C, I would really like to understand what is acceptable on both sides of this "anti-this and anti-that" question, if there is time to build consensus on it.
• Most importantly though, there was no disruption here, and I have never been a disruptive editor. In 10+ years of editing this crazy topic area, I have a maintained a clean block log (except for an incorrect procedural block that was immediately rescinded). I made c.7,500 edits to our project in 2020, the majority in this same topic area. In these discussions at Talk:West Bank bantustans and the AfD, I have made a little over 200 talk page edits. Through real effort and tough but ultimately constructive discussion, we have reached what may be an emerging consensus. I can't bring you each of those 200 edits without drowning this discussion, but you will get a good sense of the nature of my contributions if you just search for three or four of my comments at random. Or I can bring you examples if you tell me the kind of thing you would like to see.

Onceinawhile (talk) 03:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Note per I have opened an SPI at , and have highlighted the connection to this thread (and ARBPIA AE reports in general). Onceinawhile (talk) 09:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Liz: thanks for your reminder on 7 Jan re comment limits; since then I have refrained from adding to my statement. Since then a number of new claims have been made here since 7 Jan, all by editors who held a different perspective to me at the article discussion. I have shown that those claims are misleading in a couple of threads which have sprung up at User_talk:El_C#Advice and User_talk:Onceinawhile#Notification, although I would prefer this evidence to be here so it is clear for everyone. How would you like me to proceed? Onceinawhile (talk) 13:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by selfstudier

The matter referred to in Diff 1 was closed without action at ANI Selfstudier (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

This has all come about once the word "bantustan" appeared in an IP context. I could look back at all the ensuing discussions and likely find myself as well guilty of generating more heat than light on occasion and I would extend that to nearly everyone here and some that are not. The anti-this and -that is a good example of the OTT commentary. It's not for me to decide the matter but imho, this should be a case of handshake all around, keep a lid on it and move on.Selfstudier (talk) 13:19, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

ImTheIP makes a valid argument, at least up to a point. I am not precisely clear whether the filing editor is filing for himself or has been appointed group lawyer in a class action but 7 of the 16 relevant diffs are (on behalf of?) editor Reenem, who has chosen not to testify. I still believe, absent a detailed autopsy, that there is more than enough blame to go around here and if a warning should be given, then it ought not be expanded into a laundry list such that it appears as if that editor was the only guilty party.Selfstudier (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Drsmoo

It's hard to imagine how there could be anything wrong with asking someone to stop making Holocaust and pogrom references, particularly in this topic field, where those analogies are particularly likely to feel pointed. It would not have been hard for them to choose another analogy. Instead, I'm accused of racism for voicing displeasure. Drsmoo (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I still haven't seen any example provided of a post of mine that exhibited a double standard, or justified being directly accused of racism. Drsmoo (talk) 01:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

I am absolutely certain that there is no definition of racism that includes voicing displeasure at someone making Holocaust and Pogrom references. I'd also like to point out that the reason 11Fox11 brought this A/R/E (later supplemented by Levivich) was persistent and unceasing personal attacks and aggressive tendentious editing by Onceinawhile, rather than the single specific example being focused on. Drsmoo (talk) 02:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Replying to selfstudier, yes you have also been "generating heat", as you too were directly warned to stop making offensive holocaust analogies. I continue to see aspersions cast on me, despite there continuing to be no justification provided for how any of my edits illustrated "double standards" or were racist. The argument appears to be that when they called me racist, they weren't ACTUALLY calling me racist, they were trying to make a "rhetorical point". That is frankly nonsense, they directly and baselessly accused me of double standards and racism as a form of personal attack. There was nothing "rhetorical" about it. This is also nothing new, I (and others) have received unprovoked personal attacks from this user for years and years. Drsmoo (talk) 14:59, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

I have to follow up here as the discussion has extended to @El C:'s talk page, and inaccurate information was posted. The RFC was not started "thoughtfully and neutrally". As was pointed out by multiple editors, the RFC inhibited discussion by initially presenting a table of 36 possible names, (including the current title) under the false claim that the names had all been previously brought up in discussion. In fact, the majority of the list had never been discussed, and the names were simply invented by Onceinawhile right then and there. When called out, Onceinawhile responded that they "hereby suggest the other names", which begs the question of why they would lie in the first case?

Eight hours later, after 3 votes had come in, all for "Palestinian enclaves", Onceinawhile added "I know how people love to "vote". The idea is that we listen to each other first, then we can vote in a subsequent discussion." In other words, now that a consensus was emerging for Palestinian Enclaves, Onceinawhile declared that these votes would be meaningless, and that there would be another vote a month later. When a month had passed, and despite a clear consensus and a preponderance of votes for "Palestinian enclaves", Onceinawhile unilaterally closed the RFC and started an RM, falsely claiming that "When the RfC was opened, it was explicitly explained that the idea was that we would listen to everyone's open views, not vote". However this is blatantly false, Onceinawhile only added that disclaimer 8 hours after starting the RFC, after votes had come in and a consensus was emerging. It also makes no sense, if the point was to whittle down names to start a RM later, why include the current title in the list, and why add dozens of undiscussed names as well? The scope of the RFC included the current name, so it could not possibly have been intended as a means of determining an alternative to the current name.

This is part of a pattern of WP:Game and WP:OWN behavior from this editor, in addition to the constant personal attacks, and it represents an incredibly cynical view of Misplaced Pages. And I reiterate that I still have not seen any explanation for how my posts exhibited "double standards" or were racist. Other than claiming it was a "rhetorical device". I sincerely hope it's not acceptable to baselessly accuse someone of racism, only to then essentially say you "didn't mean it".

One last thing, I want to be clear that I'm not advocating for a topic ban or anything like that. Though I believe Onceinawhile has some bad editing tendencies, I think these are exacerbated by the climate in this topic space on Misplaced Pages, which stokes feelings of defensiveness. I think their (and everyone else's) passion for the topic could be channeled into much more constructive editing if hard guidelines were put down across the board, regarding civility in talk pages in the ARBPIA area. As it is, these talk spaces often degenerate into hostility, which causes defensive stances, and certainly repels editors who might normally have been inclined to contribute. A page can't be "WP:OWNed" if the guidelines literally prevent it. Something like a single talk page post a day per user on a particular article might be helpful, and I think something like that could bring out the best in all editors. Drsmoo (talk) 18:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich

Additional comments by Onceinawhile at Talk:West Bank bantustans, not included in the list above:

1. 11:49, 15 Nov: Your strategy seems Trumpesque - throwing around unsubstantiated nonsense in the desperate hope that something will stick.
2. 21:28, 24 Nov: Shrike, stop with the bullshit propaganda please ... Have some empathy and humanity.
3. 12:02, 1 Dec: Reenem, a more elegant solution than this wishy-washy bullshit would have been an apology.
4. 12:41, 1 Dec: Reenem, settlement freezes? That is your idea of a concession? OK, since I have clearly lost this debate I will now concede to you that I will stop breathing.... .... .... I have decided to start again. What a fantastic concession I have made. It should go down in history as a concession that Onceinawhile has made to Reneem.
5. 12:46, 1 Dec: By the way, I froze my breathing a number of additional times between this comment and my previous one; I do hope you appreciate these concessions I am making.
6. 00:51, 2 Dec: I find your continued attempt to minimize the occupation with your personal unsourced musings to be deeply distasteful, and wholly anti-Palestinian in effect (I am assuming good faith in terms of your intent). Again, ignorance is not an excuse for obfuscating the suffering of others ...
7. 17:49, 10 Dec: Is a little patience really too much to ask? I guess you must be worried that people reading about the West Bank bantustans might see what Moshe Dayan had in mind when he proposed it half a century ago - we better hide it quickly, huh.
8. 07:43, 12 Dec: It shows that you do not understand what NPOV means in Misplaced Pages.
9. 14:57, 12 Dec: Misplaced Pages does not use whitewashed titles for such situations - we use the common name. Do all those editors proposing simply "enclave" believe that the Palestinians should be treated differently from other groups who have lived in subjugated/oppressed enclaves, such that the title of the article describing their living arrangements should not reference this subjugation/oppression at all? Do those editors really think it is right to single out the Palestinian people in this way?
10. 16:30, 14 Dec: Plus, some editors have track records of voting without contributing to the discussion. In this thread, Drsmoo and Shrike have both made comments about neutrality which fail to address the policy of WP:POVNAME, which has been mentioned frequently above. Since they have are unwilling to explain their positions, in light of pre-existing information which undermines it, their votes are meaningless and can be ignored. Levivich /_hound 19:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• Requests I've made to Onceinawhile (among others) at Talk:West Bank bantustans for the bludgeoning/attacks to stop: Nov 30, Dec 10, Dec 18, and Dec 22. Levivich /_hound 19:46, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

  @ImTheIP: Before this AE trial I could not find a single complaint about Onceinawhile's behavior... I looked at the edit histories of the other users who write that they were wronged by Onceinawhile. I cannot find any of them complaining before this process began (though the discussion at Talk:West Bank bantustans is massive so perhaps I've missed it). See the four links just above. Levivich /_hound 18:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

It's great to see Onceinawhile's commitment to focus on edits not editors. Another aspect of this report that hasn't been addressed yet is WP:BLUDGEON. 53 editors have edited Talk:West Bank bantustans; here's the pie chart: . Once has made 178 edits, about 23% of edits and text. That's more than the bottom 50 editors combined. (Once and two other editors have made ~60% of the edits/text on the talk page.) It was the same pattern at the AFD. Once cites this in their statement here, noting they've made over 200 edits to those two pages combined.

@El C and Awilley: I have concerns about this comment Once made on their talk page a couple days ago: The drama of the last two months on this one article has been to an extreme I have never seen above, obviously off-wiki (two attack pages and one newspaper article with an attacking contributor) but also on-wiki (an AFD, an RFC, two RMs and an AE). Onceinawhile started the RFC and one of the RMs. I have a hard time reconciling the feeling that "the drama" at the article is "to an extreme I have never seen" because of the AFD, RFC, RMs, and AE, with the fact that Onceinawhile started the RFC, started one of the RMs, and is the subject of this AE after many requests/warnings from their colleagues. I agree the disruption at the article is extreme, but in my view, it's Onceinawhile who is causing it.

The discussion about the article title has been very difficult because, for example, Onceinawhile started the poorly-framed RFC (with ~40 choices), which nevertheless had a clear result ("Palestinian enclaves"), and then they closed that RFC themselves and started the RM, which again has a clear result, and have been posting 200+ comments. When those problems were raised by other editors, Onceinawhile ignored them. When they were raised here at AE, Onceinawhile cites the AE, and their own RM and RFC, and their 200 comments, as mitigating factors.

Another example is Talk:West Bank bantustans#NPOV concerns, where I raised particular concerns in connection with an NPOV tag, and Onceinawhile replied by saying some of my concerns weren't concerns and marking them {{done}}, which is just a bit presumptuous, and WP:OWNery. It's hard to discuss NPOV concerns with the other 52 editors when Onceinawhile is taking it upon themselves to mark them "done" based on whether they agree or disagree. (To their credit, Once did address some of the other concerns they marked done, so it's not all bad, it's a mix of collaborative and uncollaborative behavior.) It's hard to have a discussion about anything when Once is posting 200 times, and deciding when RFCs and RMs get launched and closed, all unilaterally.

If this ends with a logged warning, I'd ask that the warning address not just civility and WP:FORUMing, but also bludgeoning and WP:OWNership, behavior. (I'm probably over 500 and requesting extension for this post.) Levivich /_hound 18:13, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by AlmostFrancis

My dealings with Onceandawhile have been unpleasant and slightly odd. First they lied about me confirming a sources citation level, while at the same time implying I was an ultra-nationalist. I never even mentioned the citation level so no clue why they thought that would slip by. After being called out they then tried a little gaslighting saying that all they meant was that I had supplied a source. Even though they had already acknowledged I had not brought any sources for the article, forcefully I might add. They then added a source to the article implying I had recommended it. This is the organization sponsoring the essay and this is the publisher, no one could honestly believe I was recommending it. I am not the only one they are doing this too. Just today after user explained how if there is not a common name we should follow NPOV, Onceandawhile replies "Agreed. Bantustan is the clear common name". I can believe a closer would fall for that but still its annoying. AlmostFrancis (talk) 20:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

ohh boy, now more untruths. Onceandawhile is now saying that I was making claims that only an ultranationist would support. Too be clear I made three claims. One, that the source was a general interest magazine for which I had already cited the about page of the journal and the authors CV. Second that she only traced lines and was not a designer which was sourced to the authors own statement in the source. Third that the author was a secretery and not a high ranking insider which was sourced to both the authors own statments and a plaestinian artist collective. Not an Israeli ultra-nationalist source in the bunch.AlmostFrancis (talk) 21:00, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Onceinawhile, here you directly tied renaming "West Bank bantustans" article to renaming Nazi ghettos. That had nothing to do with loan words. Here is another comparison this time "West Bank bantustans" to the Warsaw ghetto. Making the argument that you were just desperate to use load words so you needed to make Nazi analogies (repeatedly), while never even using the term "loan word", takes a lot of chutzpah.AlmostFrancis (talk) 04:04, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Awilley, since you seemingly wish to close this without any real remedial action can I at least ask if you have bothered to read the evidence I have presented. Onceinawhile has blatantly lied about me making ultranationalist arguments and also lied about my actions. Not once but twice, both in the discussion I diffed and in this and his own statement he claimed I made arguments only an ultranationlist would support. That not even getting into the fact that it is preposterous to believe he compared Nazis to Jews because he couldn't think of a loan word, while never mentioning loan words until he was caught. If calling multiple users racists and lying multiple times isn't sanction worthy then what is?AlmostFrancis (talk) 06:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

In case someone believes that the disingenuous comments just involve me, or are new, I ask to you look at Onceinawhie's quote above where he claims he is against the apartheid analogy "and the title which I chose, does not claim that Israel is an apartheid state - which I do not believe it is". Yet here they are specifically calling for Israel to be directly compared to South Africa, and anti-aparthied content to be added to the lead, and using the apartheid analogy for support. No one else had mentioned apartheid in that RFC so it wans't like they were just following someone else. Does anyone really believe they have changed their mind since August and just happened to use an article name that once again use the apartheid analogy.AlmostFrancis (talk) 06:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Zero0000

To editor El C: I made a personal resolution more than 30 years ago to never use Holocaust-related analogies in arguments about the Middle East, and I've stuck to that. I think that Onceinawhile made a big mistake in choosing such an analogy to illustrate his/her case. However, I believe that the majority of readers would take this and this to be accusations by 11Fox11 that Onceinawhile was making antisemitic arguments. There is no difference between an explicit charge and a carefully crafted invitation for readers to draw the same conclusion. I don't understand how you can construe them as less deplorable than the things that Onceinawhile wrote. Zero 01:24, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

I would like to say that Onceinawhile is one of the most conscientious editors that work in the I/P area. I don't need all the fingers of one hand to list those who work so hard to bring the best possible sources and get the facts right. Of course s/he has a POV, but so does every single one of those who have written against him/her here (not including the admin section). Usually Onceinawhile is exceptional for his/her politeness and many times I've seen him/her respond seriously to argument that I didn't think deserved it. In the case of this messy talk page (which I was not involved in), Onceinawhile became emotionally involved and wrote in a manner that is not in character. I know that s/he understands this and will be more careful in the future. Zero 01:26, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Jr8825

I was uncomfortable with a conversation on my talk page in which Onceinawhile incorrectly accused me of canvassing for the AfD I opened regarding their article. They called my actions "unacceptable" and wrote "why are you working hard to bury it " (diff). At the time, I felt this was a smear intended to undermine the AfD, as an editor with their experience should know better than to make accusations without understanding the relevant policy. While this warning may have been a genuine mistake, Onceinawhile did not apologise after several uninvolved editors at the AfD pointed out that the accusation was incorrect and continued the conversation on my talk page, making comments including "sorry to say this but it all feels like anti-Palestinian racism" (diff) – later amended to "unintended racism" – directly after I had asked them to "focus on the content, rather than me as an editor".

Elsewhere, I've found working with Onceinawhile to be productive but sometimes challenging. They tend to insist that points they disagree with are invalid/unsourced, repeatedly. This behaviour is frustrating but can be put down to genuine disagreement within a contentious topic. In my (relatively limited) experience of ARBPIA articles, I've come across several other editors behaving this way; it's unconstructive and contributes to an unpleasant atmosphere but is not unique. Onceinawhile made accusatory comments about my motives on a small number occasions, such as diff #17. This happened one or two other times at most.

I've had civil discussions with Onceinawhile regarding content. Looking through past discussions, I can see they have always made efforts to be constructive once we've engaged in detailed discussion. I think these discussions and Onceinawhile's contributions in the topic area are valuable. Jr8825 • Talk 04:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

Just a note that the Talk:West Bank bantustans-page has looked ugly, a long time, and has attracted some editors usually not seen in the I/P area.

I wonder if this is because the article and Onceinawhile has been targeted in off-wiki Israeli sources: link (Redacted)

Also, when people use the results from googling "apartheid canard" "form of incitement" "expression of racism" (see this used in this edit)....that doesn't look like anywhere near objective editing to me.

Huldra (talk) 21:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

PS: I cannot get the Haaretz links to work correctly, here are the "bare" urls:

• https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-on-wikipedia-israel-is-losing-the-battle-against-the-word-apartheid-1.9330590
• https://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/.premium-on-wikipedia-israel-is-losing-the-battle-against-the-word-apartheid-1.9330590

Statement by Chipmunkdavis

All of these edits are part of a single recent content dispute surrounding the creation of the article West Bank bantustans, which I am aware of due to reviewing its submission to WP:DYK. This has generated reams of discussion that was never well organised (and has not really touched on the article content) and steadily devolved. Regarding anti-semitism, my understanding is that Onceinawhile interpreted other editors calling the title they had chosen as antisemitic as their editing being antisemitic. This interpretation was probably influenced by the previously noted external attention and the immediate battleground attitude by other editors such 11Fox11, who described Onceinawhile's edits to the page as having an "extremist viewpoint" and "endorsing Palestinian hard-line rejectionism of the peace process". Remedies should reflect the clear breaches of PA and soapbox provided by the opening diffs, while keeping in mind their emergence from a single extended content dispute where a bit of soap and a lack of attention to the article content has been pervasive from the very beginning. CMD (talk) 04:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Shrike

@Awilley: The problem is not only that article but his attitude is to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS as it evidence by his statement two years ago "I am just a foot soldier fighting for our encyclopaedia on the front lines of one of our two most contested battleground" and nothing has really changed the "bantustan" article its not the first one-sided article that he want to promote to DYK without giving a proper space to all WP:DUE POVs Here is a few examples:

• Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Old_City_of_Hebron-This user wrote one sided article and run to promote it to DYK but as explained by uninvolved editor in the end the DYK nomination has failed as the user didn't want to fix the underlying problem in the article.
• Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Enclave_law-After large work it did go to main page but the name was changed and many WP:NPOV changes were made
• Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Hebraization_of_Palestinian_place_names - Look at the first version of the article and compare it to the current version.

So the last article is just part of the trend. I don't think that other editors should check his edits to see if the article that he want to promote to main page is to complaint to WP:NPOV policy. In my view this editor is not suitable to edit in the area to the very least he should not propose articles to the main page in area of the conflict. --Shrike (talk) 10:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Awilley: Its ok to have POV I have it too the problem is not with POV but how your edit if you write one sided article and cherry pick the sources to present only POV your like and then run to put it to to the WP:MAINPAGE that an example of WP:TE. --Shrike (talk) 06:48, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by ImTheIP

I poured over 11Fox11 edit history. Before this AE trial I could not find a single complaint about Onceinawhile's behavior. Certainly not about the diffs listed by 11Fox11. It seems to me that collegial editing obliges one to give the other party a chance to make amends before taking it to trial. I looked at the edit histories of the other users who write that they were wronged by Onceinawhile. I cannot find any of them complaining before this process began (though the discussion at Talk:West Bank bantustans is massive so perhaps I've missed it).

11Fox11 filed a charge against me at AN/I last December. I was warned, which may have been deserved, but the process was similar in that 11Fox11 didn't explain what their grievance was before filing the charge. I'm sure that if someone would have told Onceinawhile that they felt that their edits were disrespectful, they would have changed their tone. ImTheIP (talk) 14:18, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Onceinawhile

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Sanctions are probably warranted here. While the evidence by the complainant is rather overwhelming, the response by Onceinawhile is almost entirely devoid of any evidence whatsoever. Their general conduct as depicted by the complainant's evidence is simply beyond the pale. Myself, it has been years and years since I've seen discourse in the ARBPIA topic area degenerate to such an extent. Not at all a good sign, which ought to be nipped in the bud. One example listed by this complaint, from yesterday (Jan 5), which I found especially egregious (diff), reads in part: P.S. you may be aware that double standards are a well-known sign of racism, and I find your continued double standards to be disturbing. The fact that Onceinawhile thinks that it's somehow okay to speak to another person in such a way is outright astonishing to me. I cannot stress enough how unacceptable this is. As for Onceinawhile's own assertion above about implied claims that some of my statements have been anti-semitic — there needs to be actual evidence to corroborate this claim, which again, their response fails to provide. El_C 16:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, I'm just not seeing where you've been accused of racism or anti-Semitism. Editors are entitled to take exception to you drawing parallels between Israeli policy and that of Nazi Germany, like by noting (in a direct quote, no less) how the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, for example, views the matter. The only actual violation I was able to identify in your recently-compiled evidence is from that IP, which I would block, if it wasn't for them being inactive. Otherwise, again, I simply fail to see how anyone has spoken as to your motivation or anything else that might be construed as a personal remark about you. El_C 19:31, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, I don't see an issue with my representation, considering you make statements such as: "Bantu autonomy" (for South African Bantustans) or "Jewish autonomy" for (Warsaw Ghetto) would be whitewashing. Why do you wish to whitewash here? It is anti-Palestinian double standards; double standards being a key element of identifying racism (diff). El_C 20:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, that is not coming across as a meaningful distinction to me, since those words highlight Nazi German, Apartheid South African and Israeli policies, respectively. As for your request, I don't really understand what you're expecting me to examine, specifically. If there's something you consider to be especially egregious, I'm happy to take a look. El_C 21:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, I acknowledge that it serves as a meaningful distinction to you, but I'm still letting you know how it is otherwise coming across. As for your objection to having editors minimize the impact of Palestinian occupation and dispossession and oppression by Israel, I'm not sure that is something which is in the purview of admins to mitigate. El_C 22:53, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Onceinawhile, when I excerpted your "sign of racism" comment, for example, I deem that to have been an ARBPIA-derived personal attack. What I'm not seeing is where you have been similarly attacked (again, save for that IP). Possibly another admin would interpret it otherwise...? Added after edit conflict: I see that Awilley has now opined below. His assessment generally mirrors my own. El_C 00:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, I did not refer to "sign of racism" words, as you put it, but as clearly stated: your "sign of racism" comment (in its entirety), which was a personal attack. El_C 01:04, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, I did not need further context. I already understood that you felt Drsmoo's comment crossed a line, which I'm not sure it did — it can instead be read as asking you to be wary of drawing these parallels. But I do find your "rhetorical mirror" to have been unduly acerbic, so I do deem it as an attack, whether you intended it as such or not. Anyway, that's my evaluation, which I'm not really inclined to debate further. Again, perhaps another admin will view it different, who knows. El_C 01:53, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
• Zero0000, I do not see it as the same thing at all, and I am quite surprised that you do. My view is that, within reason, an editor is entitled to advance the position that an argument possess anti-Semitic features according to this or that definition of whatever reputable body is being cited. But an editor is not allowed to respond to that challenge by intimating "racism" on the part of the original editor by virtue of a vague notion of "double standards." Anyway, I'd really would like to go do something else for a while rather than have to respond to these seemingly endless pings. There are other admins who patrol the AE board, why not let them have their say? El_C 01:53, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, sorry, but I still think it was a personal attack on your part. Nor am I saying anything of the sort about the definition of antisemitism versus that of racism (per se.). Now, is there anything else you wish to query me about? May as well get it out of the way. Also, if you are speaking to me here at the AE board, it is actually better that you ping me — though, again, I do think I've already responded to this AE report in considerable detail. El_C 02:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• Onceinawhile, I'll do you one better than continuing to go on about what does or does not equate this or that. I'll preface this by noting that I am listening to a live feed of the reconvened Congress as I am writing this (Rubio just yielded the floor), so hopefully I'm able to communicate the following effectively. Look, I've known you to be a long time regular in good standing in the ARBPIA topic area for years and years, mostly engaging it without major incident (I'm not sure whether without blemish, but confident enough of it being at least okayish overall). Which is why I'm more than a bit puzzled to see you stumble like this over this particular article. Honestly, it's rather unexpected. So, while I'm willing to take your long-term ARBPIA tenure into account when considering sanctions, I'd still like to be able to get a sense of what's happening here. Because something has happened, I'm just not sure what it is. El_C 03:49, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• After my comment directly above, both myself and Onceinawhile went on to discuss the matter on my talk page (here and here), which went pretty well, I thought. I am now satisfied that a logged warning would be enough to conclude this complaint. Thoughts, anyone? El_C 17:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Levivich, makes sense. An admonishment against skirting the line of WP:OWN, as well as WP:BLUDGEON and otherwise novel ("presumptuous") talk page usage ought to also be recorded in the log entry. El_C 18:45, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• I reviewed diffs 2-17 and found a majority of them were objectionable/disruptive/uncollaborative. It looks like most of the dispute is centered around West Bank bantustans. Would a narrow topic ban or partial block be enough to resolve this? ~Awilley (talk) 00:04, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

  Based on this I am content to close this with a reminder for Onceinawhile to focus on content and not contributors. @Shrike, I would hesitate to block/ban someone based on their POV alone. I'm personally not that familiar with the topic area, but it wouldn't surprise me if most of the editors there had strong points of view. In that case I would want to retain those editors with good knowledge of the sources who are able to collaborate with others in the topic area. ~Awilley (talk) 00:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

• Just a mention, Onceinawhile, that the instructions regarding statements say They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs and you have gone way over that. Unless asked a specific question, do not add any more to your statement. Liz 06:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Calton

Forbidden History

Debresser

Reinhearted

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Debresser

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – El_C 17:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

2-week block for WP:GAME violations at the WP:ARBPIA topic area. El_C 17:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Administrator imposing the sanction

El_C (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

I am the one who copied this appeal from Debresser's talk page, so all good on that front. El_C 18:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Debresser

There was no gaming involved. After 28 hours I asked the other editor's permission in the section above on my talkpage and I even asked other editors for their opinions at WP:AE, and after another 4 hours had passed, making that 32 hours after my original revert, and the other editor had agreed there was no 1RR violation involved, and no objections were raised at WP:AE, I made my edit. I think that calling such upfront behavior "gaming the system" is doing me an injustice. Please also notice that he whole WP:AE report has been run by only one admin so far, and although I have only good things to say about them, I'd like to see other admins' take on this. (In addition, I see no reason to limit my editing privileges at other articles, surely not for such an exorbitant length of time, and I thank Onceinawhile for his sentiments in this regard.) Debresser (talk) 16:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by El_C

See also: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Debresser

As mentioned, I've warned Debresser multiple times over the years about gaming the system and wikilawyering concerning their conduct revolving around ARBPIA (or near-ARBPIA) pages and edits. As also mentioned, their latest violation, which followed a self-revert (noted at 12:00 UTC) only to then immediately have it followed by seeking to undo that very same self-revert (posed at 12:02 UTC), and which was finally acted upon a few hours later, is just a step too far for me. I believe I am well within my discretion to apply Committee-authorized sanctions to interpret this as a WP:GAME violation which warrants the present sanction. As I also feel it would be within my discretion to impose a broadly construed topic ban on Debresser from the topic area, overall, if he were to fail to provide some pretty strong assurances that he'll be able to exercise better judgment in the future. El_C 18:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I'll quote myself from Debresser's talk page: Debresser, look, I don't want to belabour the point, but what is the point in self-reverting when you intend on undoing that very same self-revert a mere 2 minutes later? I realize the action itself happened, as you say, 4 hours later... But still, the absurdity of that notion, I'm not sure how, short of getting the sanctions ball rolling, I could meaningfully convey to you that, as an approach, it is not okay. That it has led to problems in the past and that it is likely to lead to problems in the future. El_C 23:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Thryduulf, oh, a topic ban is coming. That was the original plan (diff), and it remains so. El_C 14:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

That is to say: myself imposing such a ban is predicated on this appeal being declined first. Only once that happens formally, will I go ahead with said ban, which will be an indefinite, broadly construed ARBPIA prohibition. El_C 22:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

I haven't checked the logs or timeline, but isn't GAME for something like 24+1 or 25-26 hours past the 24 hour deadline? If it is as Debresser said, 32 hours, is that now also considered gaming? In addition, after the 24 hours, he did post on the talkpage, it should not be considered gaming, especially when posting something that is BLUE. Sir Joseph 23:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Debresser

• Misplaced Pages policy forbids edit-warring in general, not just bright-line 3RR (or 1RR) violations. Self-reverting to avoid 1RR, but then almost immediately self-unreverting does seem like an issue. Debresser had 3 edit-warring blocks in 2020; their appeal doesn't suggest to me that they will avoid edit-warring in the future. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:45, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
• I really can't think anything more GAME-y than self-reverting and then re-reverting because the original revert that you self-reverted was now more than 24 hours ago. At the least one would think an editor would wait 24 hours from the self-revert until the re-revert, but even that would be gaming. Once an edit is self-reverted, the editor who self-reverted should never re-revert that edit again, and, I mean, duh! It defeats the purpose of self-reverting if one re-reverts afterwards. BTW, this is why we should change the rule to "do not repeat edits without consensus". The "revert" terminology offers too many holes, such as this one. Levivich /_hound 17:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Debresser

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I would decline this appeal. --Guerillero 20:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
• Strong decline, the offense was clearly Debresser using a self-revert to justify edit warring just outside of the 1RR window, in spite of the fact that it had been made clear that the edit was objected to (per their own evidence). Edit warring over a disputed edit on an article with 1RR, on the pure basis that the contested edit would not technically be a 1RR violation because you've self-reverted and waited until the window had closed, is about the biggest, gamey, slap in the face to the page restriction that I can possibly think of. Block was straightforward, especially given the fact that it is consistent with previous warnings against this exact behavior from the blocking administrator. I not only endorse the block here, but I don't see how any other action would have been reasonable. ~Swarm~ 00:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
• If anything, a two week block without a topic ban is too lenient given how obvious it should have been that the behaviour was completely inappropriate - doubly so given the previous warnings. I strongly recommend declining the appeal. Thryduulf (talk) 10:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Request for page restrictions enforcing civility on Talk:Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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