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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 209.183.200.166 (talk) at 16:33, 10 February 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Copyright issue

The article about Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is very interesting and enjoyable, but:

• are we sure it is copright-free? it is "signed" and has a structure of a piece of criticism which could have appeared in a book or journal (nothing of the above means that it was not written for the Misplaced Pages, or is free from copyright, of course, but one wonders).
• it expresses in some places very personal opinions and commentaries, some of which not universally shared. So, if we agree that it does not violate anything, one could work a bit about it. But, then again, perhaps it is by a great critic, so his opinion may well be interesting (and worthy an encyclopedia article) by themselves. Also, Abby is cool.

Should anybody change or delete or whatever that article, please do not delete the initial part (the one with the description of the symphony's movements), which was written by myself, obtaining it by the score of the symphony. --Goochelaar

I would venture to say that it's written by an aficionado; if he's also a critic, he's a critic for a journal that doesn't bother archiving things online: . Those three pages yield the year-old email mestrin1 at earthlink.net. Anyone care to ask him? --Koyaanis Qatsi

Beethoven and his predecessors

Some statements in the article concerning Beethoven's work in relation to Haydn's and Mozart's are inaccurate.

First, the claim that his developments last 10 minutes. No, they are at most about 5 minutes. His longest movements are 15 to 20 minutes long (depending on repeats) with the development taking up about a third. In many of Haydn's works the development is equally extensive compared to the scale of the movement.

Second, the claim that the Eroica first movement is as long as a Mozart-era symphony. Mozart's symphonies with 4 movements take about 25 minutes to perform whereas the first movement of the Eroica is about 15 minutes. Possibly if one were to perform the Eroica very slowly with repeats and the Mozart very fast without repeats the times could be equal, but this is not a fair comparison.

However, it is indisputable that Beethoven's codas (closing sections) were on average much longer than Mozart's (no codas or very short ones) or Haydn's occasionally more extensive codas; and that Beethoven's movements were on average longer than Mozart's and Haydn's - say half as long again. There are very notable exceptions, like the short first movement of the Fifth Symphony and the String Quartet no.11 which is shorter than most of Haydn's mature works.

It's not true to say that Beethoven's use of rhythmic motifs contrasts strongly with Haydn's. On the contrary, Haydn pioneered the technique of breaking up musical thought into short, flexible rhythmic motifs, which Beethoven undoubtedly drew from. (See Haydn string quartet op.50 no.4 (first movement), the finale of the piano sonata no.52, the first movement of the sonata no.49, etc.etc.) However, Beethoven achieved unprecedented rhythmic drive and emotional and dramatic range with the technique, which probably leads many people to neglect Haydn's contribution.

While it's correct to say that the first-movement themes of the Fifth and Ninth symphonies are more rhythmic than melodic in character, it's difficult to see how the broad cello theme of the Eroica first movement can be called unmelodic. In fact, Mozart used the exact same melody decades earlier in one of his early minuets (though with a rather different overall effect). One of the distinguishing features of the 3rd. is the strong contrast between broad, simple melodies and energetic rhythmic passages. (Compare the quartet Op.59 no.1 first movement.)

Concerning the finale of the 3rd., it's more complex than just the initial (not very melodic) "theme" consisting of isolated notes. This turns out to be the bass-line of the theme revealed later, which is a broadly lyrical melody. In fact the bass-line is used as a *harmonic* theme, rather than a rhythmic one: Beethoven immediately changes the rhythm of the notes, but keeps the same harmony throughout the variations. This is similar to Baroque ground bass movements which present varying melodies and rhythms over the same harmony. Beethoven's innovation is in "fooling" us (at least the writer of the article) into thinking that the bass line is the melody. ***** tdent@auth.gr

Yes, the article needs quite a bit of work. I don't agree with absolutely everything you say, but I'm with you on most of it, and I'm sure you could much improve the article. Do feel free to do so: be bold in updating pages and all that. --Camembert

Arrival of Stirling Newberry

Thanks for revising the Beethoven article, Stirling. I've edited slightly and added a bit more on the "crisis period."

I hope you will endorse (or at least put up with) my trimback of the discussion of the Ninth Symphony--the bits about the Choral Fantasy predecessor and the Berlin Wall were already there in the Ninth Symphony article, and I feel they fit there better than in the Beethoven article as such.

Have you thought of taking on Mozart or Schubert? Both need tender loving care right now.

Opus33 04:45, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I had not seen the Ninth Symphony Article when I posted my additions, and I agree that moving more writing there is better, it is an extensive article. The Beethoven needs revising, in that the section on his music proper needs to have a bit more on what an encyclopedia reader would need. What is there is technically good, and worthy to keep, but needs to be balanced with the emotional and literary work.

Schubert isn't really my strong point, I will probably stop by Haydn, and would like to continue to refine some of the individual articles on Beethoven's music, particularly his string quartets and piano trios.

Stirling

We don't know when Beethoven was born

A little while ago, somebody changed "baptized December 17" in the opening sentence to "born December 16". Is this definitely correct? I thought that we knew for sure when Beethoven was baptized, but couldn't say for sure what day he was born on. --Camembert

• You're right, and I'm about to change it back. (It's really not at all unusual not to know a birth date but to know a baptismal date, but people keep trying to squeeze facts into a template, even if it means doing violence to the facts) Here's an online ref. -- Outerlimits 01:53, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Shorten Symphony Section

We've now got individual articles on all nine symphonies, which I think renders the discussion of individual symphonies on this page redundant. I've put in cross-references.

In case anyone wants to restore old material, or transfer it to the individual symphony articles, below I've appended what I cut.

I hope this is ok. Opus33 20:44, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Beethoven completed nine numbered symphonies. His first symphony, in C, is reliant upon Haydn models. His Symphony No. 2 in D extends Beethoven's understanding of the symphony. His first famous symphony was No. 3 in E-flat, better known as the Eroica. As mentioned, although this was originally dedicated to the French First Consul, Napoleon, Beethoven angrily ripped off the dedication after the Frenchman declared himself emperor.

The Symphony No. 4 in B-flat is a remarkable example of good humor. Even more famous is Symphony No. 5 in C minor, which starts with a well-known theme which people say sounds like fate knocking at the door. The Sixth Symphony, in F, is better known as the Pastoral. It is based on country life, and made up of five movements, of which the most famous are the second movement, Scene by the Brook, and the third, Merry Gathering of Country Folk.

The Seventh and Eighth symphonies are more rhythmic, the second movement of the eighth being based on the metronome, an invention by Beethoven's friend Johann Maelzel. The final complete symphony is Symphony No. 9 in D minor, composed in 1823 (and occasionally referred to as Choral), whose last movement, as mentioned, was a setting of Schiller's poem celebrating joy. A choir and four vocal soloists appear in this movement. (The chorus has been adopted as the official anthem of the European Union.)

Deleted material

Here's the stuff I just removed from the top of the article, in case anyone want to put it back:

His most famous works include his Fifth Symphony, Ninth Symphony, the piano piece "Für Elise", the "Pathétique" Sonata and the "Moonlight" Sonata.

Query for other classical music editors

I'm posting this under Beethoven, since I think most classical music editors have this page on their watchlist, but the issue comes up for all composers.

We've now got a fair number of articles about individual compositions by Beethoven. What would be the best way to give the reader easy access to all of these articles? Asking the reader to go to "What links here" seems inadequate, since for someone like Beethoven the compositions are buried in a whole raft of other random cultural connections. Should there be a list, like ===Articles on compositions by Beethoven=== as part of the ==See also== section?

Whatever we do, if anything, probably should be done uniformly for all composers.

Thanks in advance for your opinion, yours very truly, Opus33 18:40, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What about List of works by Beethoven? Hyacinth 21:03, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Hyacinth, I think this is a plausible approach, at least for Beethoven, where we have already produced articles for a fair number of the works. But for prolific but less well-covered composers (how many of Scarlatti's sonatas or Schubert's songs have Misplaced Pages entries?), the reader seeing the list will find mostly a desert of empty links, no?

If the "List of Works by X" approach is the right way to go, it might be good to amplify these lists so that they give their content in more than one way--e.g. both by opus number and by genre. I do use the List of works by Beethoven myself to look up articles and sometimes find the listing by just opus number to be a bit inconvenient. A genre list could perhaps be more selective and be of more help to the reader in finding articles. Opus33 22:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We might not need to do it the same way for every composer. Some might benefit just by having a linked works list at the end of the article--consider composers with relatively few, but large works (Wagner, Mahler, ...) which could have a ===Works=== section at the end of the article (I have started doing this on some of the Renaissance/Medieval/Baroque folks whose bios I have been writing recently). With composers with a HUGE number of works, I like the idea of a separate works list article as Hyacinth suggests. But then I've never been a great fan of consistency for its own sake--I think Aristotle already occupies too much of our brains.  :-) But at any rate I really want to see lists of composers works and an increasing amount of articles on individual pieces. Cheers, Antandrus 15:32, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Whatever people decide I'm fine with, perhaps we could add a bit to a meta wiki page on music editing, there seems to be a growing community here. Stirling Newberry 19:29, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Music. Hyacinth 02:19, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Needs more that is applicable to history of classical music and classical music. Stirling Newberry 04:37, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'd like a place where we could talk about all classical-music-related stuff, sort of a village pump for the community of editors here. I'm not sure the project meta page is the right spot for it. Ideas? I suppose I could make a sub-page under my user page but I think a more "public" spot would be better. Antandrus 04:51, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for all your replies. I've tried to take them into account in revising List of works by Beethoven, adding links to every work that already has a Misplaced Pages article. As far as ordering the genres, I tried to follow what's in the Penguin Guide to CDs, which is probably already familiar to many people.

For other composers, e.g. Haydn, I think I will take Antandrus's advice and not duplicate the Beethoven scheme, but simply add to the ==See also== section. This seems the simplest way to guide the reader to articles on individual works so long as there isn't a great number of them. Opus33 19:52, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The ad for Wikiquote

Hi- We already had a link to the Wikiquote entry for Beethoven, and there's also already a ban on banner ads in the Misplaced Pages, so I took out the ad. I think the article will be just as useful and also look much nicer if we leave these ads out. I hope that's ok. Cheers, Opus33 00:36, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Reformat as main article, satellite articles?

Hi all-- This article has a rather long and rambling feel to it, and I'm only adding to the effect right now by putting in more details of Beethoven's biography. Usually when a Misplaced Pages article gets long, it is redeployed as a main article plus various satellite articles, with the main article including brief summaries of the satellite articles. For an example, see (among many others) United Kingdom.

For the Beethoven article, the satellites would plausibly be a detailed biography, a detailed discussion of musical style and innovations, a list of works (already a satellite), and perhaps something on symphonies.

Please reply if you think this is not the right way to go; otherwise I will try to implement it soon. Opus33 15:17, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Was Beethoven of partly African ancestry?

The article should mention the controversy (Edward G. Nilges 11-19-2004210.21.221.184 02:26, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)) and I have added a paragraph.

I've moved the addition here

Some scholars (by no means all) have raised the possibility that Beethoven was of at least partial African ancestry, and this may explain some of the rythmic and tonal explorations in his late works, where (for example) jazzlike syncopations appear in his Hammerklavier sonata. An explanation of this possibility would be the Turkish invasion of south-eastern Europe; the Turkish forces used Ethiopian and other African troops as musicians, and were stopped near Vienna in the 17th century. Other scholars reject this possibility.

It's a silly theory (that tacitly supposes his later (but not earlier) music's content is genetically determined), and that nothing says "jungle rhythm" like "late Beethoven". Worse, it's an unattributed silly theory. If the "some scholars" who have addressed it, it might be added back and attributed to them, but certainly not in such a prominent place as it was the first time...it's simply not that important a wild-ass guess theory. - Nunh-huh 02:49, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Nunh-huh.

For the origin of the "Beethoven was black" claim, I found this a vaguely useful link:

http://www.africawithin.com/bios/joel_rogers.htm

Joel Rogers was a self-trained historian who in 1966 published a book that made this claim. He seems to have been a brave and enterprising man who had an interesting career. But it also seems that the "Beethoven was black" hypothesis has not attracted much scholarly support.

If we're to mention it (and I'm not sure we should), I think it should involve reading and quoting Rogers, pointing out that Rogers's theory hasn't convinced the musicologists.

I agree with Nunh-huh that this material doesn't belong in such a prominent position; at best it should be in the detail satellite biography. And obviously, it should leave out the unsupported and inflammatory assertion about syncopation being genetic.

Cheers, Opus33 04:38, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Edward Nilges: I'll consider rewriting it with sources when I have time. The issue was, I think now, more appropriate to raise first in discussion but I was also pressed for time when I modified the article.

There was no assertion about syncopation, being genetic. There are indeed irresponsible assertions made about genetics, but the rule here is that any POSITIVE assertion about African genes is "irresponsible and inflammatory".

I didn't mention genes. Instead, there was an entire hidden Turkish tradition in south-eastern European classical music which emerges in the "Turkish" march but which is in denial about "miscegenation".

Rather than thinking Beethoven unique, the mathematics of human reproduction show race mixture to be the (denied) norm and not exceptional. If one traces only the patrilineal line, one ignores contributions which are by default multiracial.

Beethoven was Black

While there is no evidence for it, it should be documented as a speculation which goes back to the 19th century. Perhaps in the life and work section?

Stirling Newberry 01:42, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Birthdate

I removed the "born December 16" which was added by an anonymous editor. As far as I know, his exact birth date is not known with certainty, but inferred from the usual custom at the time of baptising infants a day or two after birth. The New Grove gives no birthdate; Slonimsky gives "December 15 or 16." At any rate this issue is covered in the full life and work article. I'm open to alternative opinions, including putting the date back if others feel it is sufficiently well established, or if there is a good source on his birthdate I don't know about. Antandrus 01:42, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is not the first time--see discussion above. I think what's happening is that people who don't know much about Beethoven think they know he was born on December 16, because they've seen that date somewhere (perhaps in material presented to children, who seldom are given the nuances). Thus they put it in December 16, thinking they are improving the article. We just have to be persistent here... Opus33 16:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

--

To prevent that, how about putting "Born: unknown. Often put as December 16 or 16"?

Beethoven Relics

I know people have saved locks of Beethoven's hair, etc. Has anyone ever attributed any miracles to these relics? I've seen this web site, but I don't know if its for real or not.

Flowery prose

I reverted:

"As a monolith of the music of his era, his legacy cast a wide shadow on those that succeeded him; he has left an indelible mark on the tradition of European classical music."

Editor Bleh Fu actually expressed a qualm about this edit when offering it, i.e. that it might be a bit "flowery". I think this intuition is dead on, and would like to give a reason in support: most Misplaced Pages readers go to our encyclopedia to get facts, not flowery prose. If you agree with me (and I hope you do) that we write the Misplaced Pages for our readers and not for ourselves, than that's a good reason to go for a "just the facts" approach and keep the prose non-distracting. Thanks for listening. Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've added some language on reputation, it isn't the most felicitous, but I think that the fact beneath the prose should be there: that Beethoven did indeed cast a long shadow. Stirling Newberry 16:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to avoid peacock terms in the description; there should definitely be an elaboration on *why* Beethoven is considered the greatest of composers, even if it is in twelve words or less. Regarding "just the facts", is is already a grey area once we use expressions like "is widely regarded as". I think Stirling's edit is good, and should stand. --bleh fu talk fu 21:23, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

"Almost certain" birth date

Concerning the "almost certainly" birth date, which I also reverted, please see the discussion from earlier in this forum--we've gone through this one several times already. I can't see any justification for including it unless the anonymous contributor can cite solid evidence from scholarly literature--what is actually known about 18th century baptismal practices in this part of Germany? In the absence of such documentation, we should stick to the facts.

Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, no one has found any sources since the last time. Stirling Newberry 16:25, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

chiming in: I'm with you too. His actual, certain birth date is not known. Antandrus 16:26, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)