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Controversy

This section is heavily biased. "Genetic determinism" is a loaded term usually used by critics of sociobiology and evolutionary psychology. Critics use the term pejoratively to describe figures such as E.O. Wilson, Richard Dawkins and Steven Pinker, and none of whom are generally considered fringe scientists. Wilson, for example, has never considered himself a "genetic determinist", and instead has insisted that human nature is the result of culture working on a biology that "channels" it, or keeps it on a "genetic leash". In other words, genes predispose humans to certain behaviours, but do not rigidly determine them. Nicholas Wade holds a similar position. I would attempt to rewrite the section more neutrally (both perspectives, including those who support Wade), but unfortunately I do not have the time at the present; I have simply added a template for now. Hayden120 (talk) 12:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The term "genetic determinism" is used just once and attributed to its source, Marks, which is how it's properly done. The controversy section is weighted too much to Marks but he should be properly identified as anthropologist and geneticist, given the juxtaposition with Wade's quote that follows Marks views.

The section needs work, but note how Wade's quote is cherry picked from an article showing Marks has a lot of company in his opinions of Wade-that's no way to "balance" things. And there's just a single statement there now referring to Wade's opinions of sociobiology -per WP:Coatrack the article needs to keep its focus on Wade (who is a journalist) and not wander off into broader debate over sociobiology itself. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I concur. The section looks like it was written by Marks himself. At the very least, someone should put up a disputed neutrality warning. 70.197.84.231 (talk) 07:42, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages being used for self-promotion

Who is Jonathan M. Marks, and what does he have to do with the NY Times writer? Posing as information about a general dispute with certain of Wade's writings Mr. Marks or his amanuensis is merely drawing attention to himself. "In other news Kevin Federline said Vanilla Ice's music sucks." Housewares (talk) 18:10, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Ii removed the criticism from Jonathan M. Marks since the source was self-published (blogspot). Such sources shall not be used about living persons per WP:BLPSPS. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 18:14, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

TFair enough--if Marks had a notable involvement with the subject it would deserve a concise description rather than the movie-poster-style blurb placed over his name. Housewares (talk) 18:30, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I would note that Jonathan Marks is a respected molecular anthropologist, although one who tends towards polemicism. Certainly more respectable than Wade. 171.64.203.240 (talk) 02:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

12 May 2021 edits. Wade's response to criticism

In regard to this edit series, i support the inclusion of Wade's response to his critics. This seems obvious to me that if criticism of his work is notable enough for inclusion, his response is presumptively worth including as well. The edit summary provides no real indication as to what the problem is, only that we should take it to talk. Ok, here we are. What exactly is the problem with this material? Bonewah (talk) 12:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

My understanding of the history (which may be incomplete) is: On 2 December 2014 31.48.190.58 added the critical letter. On 16 January 2015, 84.121.56.93 added Mr Wade's reply. On 22 April 2021, Generalrelative removed Mr Wade's reply. Then Dcrellin and 98.116.80.134 and John2510 tried to re-insert but Generalrelative reverted them all. I believe that Generalrelative is correct to say that a consensus is required to re-insert Mr Wade's reply, and I believe that the editors who oppose Generalrelative are correct to point out that the response to the critique is allowable and would provide some balance. However, I propose: get rid of the critique too. It is a letter to the editor so removal could be justified with WP:BLPSPS and a consensus would be required to re-insert it. Would each side accept that? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:29, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

For my part, that seems acceptable. The letter and reply dont say much that we dont already say elsewhere and the citation (currently ref 14) could be moved to the next sentence "Other scientists argued that Wade had misrepresented their research". I imagine we could find a place for the citation used in the removed text as well. Bonewah (talk) 14:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bonewah: Thanks for opening up this discussion. My case for not including the response was stated in my edit summary: Wade's reply is WP:UNDUE when weighed against the stated view of over 100 geneticists and biologists. That policy states, in part: Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. If you're skeptical that Wade's view really represents such a tiny minority, just look at the wide variety of critical sources cited at the main article A Troublesome Inheritance. Perhaps I should also have pointed to WP:FRINGE, since one of the things these geneticists are criticizing Wade for is the view that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence. An RfC over at Race and intelligence has recently affirmed that this view is fringe and therefore needs to be treated consistently with that guideline. How the language here would reflect that can certainly be debated, and I'd be happy to do so. For the record I'd be happy to include a paraphrase of Wade's denial that his book supports this fringe view, but not his accusation that all of these scientists have simply not read it.

@Peter Gulutzan: Thanks to you for compiling that timeline. I will just add that 1) Dcrellin and 98.116.80.134 appear to qualify as WP:SPAs, so their edits alone would typically not be considered as building a consensus. And 2) WP:SELFPUB makes it clear that Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. That applies to all of the nearly 140 geneticists who signed the letter. Further, this letter was discussed at length in a secondary source, in this case Science: That's not just some letter to the editor. That is a major and thorough repudiation which is newsworthy in and of itself. If anythings, we should cut the views of David Dobbs and Charles Murray, neither of whom are experts in the filed of genetics. Generalrelative (talk) 15:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• I find Wade's response to be somewhat disingenuous: While it's true that the book does not posit a genetic link between intelligence and race, and indeed acknowledges the consensus view that such a link is unlikely, the book nonetheless works very hard to posit a mechanism by which such a link could work as well as claiming that such a mechanism is likely to exist (indeed, that's the central thesis of the book). On top of that, his book assigns a genetic importance to race which is not found in the views of actual geneticists (hence much of the criticism).

With that in mind, I agree with Generalrelative that adding Wade's response would be an exercise in false balance. The suggestion that Wade's response carries any appreciable weight in comparison to the critiques from dozens (if not hundreds) of scientists is spurious. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:33, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with the assertion that Wade's response is either false balance or should be weighed against other scientists views with an eye towards Undue. We are not presenting Wade's views as correct or incorrect, we are simply presenting them as Wades views. If this were an article about Race and intelligence for instance, then i would agree with you that Wade's responses would have no place in that article. However, this is not an article about race, its an article about Wade. Indeed WP:WEIGHT states in part: "Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as flat Earth). (emphasis mine). This is an article about Wade, and by extension, his views, and so this is the appropriate place to represent them. WP:FALSEBALANCE agrees, saying in part "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Misplaced Pages policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity" (emphasis mine again). Again, we are not doing that here. Moreover, if either false balance or undue was an issue, then the problem would be with including Wade's books about the subject of race and genetics, not with his response to criticism of the book. Look at the preceding paragraph in the article. It contains the line "...in which he argued that human evolution has been "recent, copious, and regional" and that genes may have influenced a variety of behaviours that underpin differing forms of human society." Thats the fringe claim, not some note that his critics are wrong. But even there we are not running afoul of any Misplaced Pages rule. There is no problem with articles that describe fringe beliefs and their adherents. The issue is in presenting those fringe views in articles about the mainstream view. Bonewah (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with the assertion that Wade's response is either false balance or should be weighed against other scientists views with an eye towards Undue. Considering that over a hundred scientists have concluded "this book supports a racist view of intelligence," it's fair to call that "commonly accepted mainstream scholarship." Wade dismisses this without addressing their arguments in a way that would be WP:UNDUE even were he an expert in the subject, arguing against a single other expert. When one considers that he's a non-expert arguing with over a hundred experts... Yeah, that's a false balance.

Indeed WP:WEIGHT states in part: "Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as flat Earth). (emphasis mine). I don't see how that is a positive argument for the inclusion of Wade's claim that most scientists haven't read his book. In fact, WP:WEIGHT also says "Misplaced Pages should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view," and the claim that "none of these scientists have actually read my book" is, without a doubt, a minority view so tiny as to be insignificant.

Now, my opposition is not to the inclusion of Wade's response at all, but to the inclusion of the ridiculous (and rather petulant) notion that none of the signatories had read his book. If you were to write something that better characterized Wade's response without lending weight to his numerous fallacies, I'd be okay with that. For example:

Wade responded, claiming they had misrepresented the claims in the book, and saying that it presented a "principled" objection to racism.

ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

+1 to this suggested text. Very much in line with my suggestion above that we include a paraphrase of Wade's denial that his book supports this fringe view, but not his accusation that all of these scientists have simply not read it. Generalrelative (talk) 17:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I also support this proposed language. I would slightly prefer just the first half, ending it at "...book." It's important to maintain the WEIGHT on the objections of a large group of scientists by keeping our note on Wade's response brief. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that any editor's personal view of the substance or validity of an entry is relevant. When there is disagreement like this, the best solution is to provide the reader with both sides and let him decide. It's unfair to provide only one side of an argument, especially when elimination of the other side is based upon editors' personal views on the validity of the arguments. John2510 (talk) 16:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that any editor's personal view of the substance or validity of an entry is relevant. Once again, we have someone attributing something they don't like to a "personal view". What I wrote was not a personal view. One of the central theses of Wade's book is that race is much more genetically meaningful than geneticists have claimed it is, a thesis which, when combined with his other cherry-picked assertions about racial genetics and the heritability of IQ form a mechanism by which the relationship between IQ and race could be explained (assuming that Wade were actually correct in his numerous assertions). This is not opinion, but rather a logically inescapable consequence of any informed reading of the book. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

That boils down to: You're certain that your conclusion is "inescapably" right to any "informed" person, therefore readers should be prevented from reading the opposing view. John2510 (talk) 19:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I also support inclusion of Wade's defense. As a fallback, I would support removal of both the attack and the defense. I think it's absurd to suggest that an individual's defense of his personal position is UNDUE, simply because he is making it himself, rather than as a group. Generally, when an individual's actions are attacked in a public way, the significant and relevant defense is the one that person gives.John2510 (talk) 16:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Including Wade's defense is appropriate. Stonkaments (talk) 16:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I also note that Wade's defense of his actions was quoted in the Science article that is cited as a source for the attack. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/08/geneticists-decry-book-race-and-evolution Apparently, Science thought his position was significant and appropriate to include. I submit that WP should as well. It disturbs me to see materials actively omitted from articles for the reasons stated here - because editors disagree with their substance. Readers should be provided with the opportunity to consider both sides of any argument worth including.John2510 (talk) 16:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Readers should be provided with the opportunity to consider both sides of any argument worth including. That's what we're discussing here: whether his response is worth including.

Seriously? If both sides of the argument are to be included, then we need to include his response, and not just the attack. It's apparent the editors of Science realized the need for that. John2510 (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

It disturbs me to see materials actively omitted from articles for the reasons stated here - because editors disagree with their substance. I have good news for you then. No one is basing their position here on such reasons. You've simply misread the discussion above. Generalrelative (talk) 17:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Seems there is some support to simply excluding the block quotes entirely, which is fine by me. That a controversial book solicited criticism and resposes to same is unremarkable, and, as such, should be just removed. Ive made a compromise edit, feel free to modify, revert, etc so long as you discuss why here. Bonewah (talk) 17:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

That edit was not even close to a compromise, and in fact, resembles more the sort of edit I might expect from some random edgelord IP who decided to troll this discussion. Please don't make such an edit again. Both me and Generalrelative have proposed compromises, including specific wording in my case, which Generalrelative has endorsed. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

That a controversial book solicited criticism and resposes to same is unremarkable. What kind of reasoning is this? It seems you're arguing that WP should not discuss responses by experts to controversial claims because of course experts will challenge such claims. But I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not making such an absurd argument. Would you mind clarifying? Generalrelative (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to pile on, but I also object to the "remove it all" edit being considered a compromise. Peter Gulutzan suggested it above, Generalrelative gave a good-faith counter, and there hasn't been any discussion of it's merits since. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok then, is the core of the objection the fact that Wade's response includes the claim that the critics must not have read Wade's work? The reason i ask is the same as my response to Generalrelative: The quotes we had tells the reader almost nothing. The critics say "you misrepresented my work" Wade says "you misrepresented my work". Ok, how? In what way? The only thing we really say is that there was criticism of an ill defined nature. The quotes do nothing to clarify anything, so if the jist of it all is that there is criticism then we might as well just say that. In so far as MPants would accept a response from Wade that doesnt include claims about who read what, then.... fine i guess, but we still arent saying much. Maybe we could say something to the effect of Wade replys "As no reader of the letter could possibly guess, “A Troublesome Inheritance” argues that opposition to racism should be based on principle, not on the anti-evolutionary myth that there is no biological basis to race." Or if you prefer "Perhaps I could point out an error in one of the few specific statements in their letter. They charge me with saying that “recent natural selection has led to worldwide differences in I.Q. test results.” I say no such thing. What I do say (p. 193) is that “It may be hazardous to compare the IQ scores of different races if allowance is not made for differences in wealth, nutrition and other factors that influence IQ.”. Im not in love with block quotes in general, but if we are going to quote Wade's reply then we should at least quote something that provided the reader with useful information. Bonewah (talk) 18:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

In so far as MPants would accept a response from Wade that doesnt include claims about who read what, then.... fine i guess, but we still arent saying much. The whole point of this discussion is to determine how much to say about Wade's response. Given the vast difference in expertise and numbers here "not much" is pretty much the target. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Again, i want to emphasize, this is not an article about race and genetics, its an article about Nicholas Wade. And i see no reason to paraphrase Wade's response to his critics while quoting those critics directly. If the problem really is the part where Wade says his critics must not have read his works, then perhaps we simply say "Wade responded in a letter "“A Troublesome Inheritance” argues that opposition to racism should be based on principle, not on the anti-evolutionary myth that there is no biological basis to race.". At least that quote tells the reader something sort of informative. Bonewah (talk) 19:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Why on earth would we want to use this BLP as a platform to uncritically present Wade's fringe view that the scientific consensus on race is an anti-evolutionary myth? As to the rest of your argument, i.e. (I see no reason..., the reason is presented very clearly in WP:NPOV, one of our core policies. Neutrality does not mean presenting both sides; it means presenting all sides according to WP:DUE weight; and in this case Wade's own view counts for almost nothing when weighed against essentially the entire scientific community. There is no ambiguity here. Generalrelative (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

For me, that claim about critics not reading is not the core of my objection, although I agree it's problematic. I'm mostly focused on WEIGHT. Many scientists promoting a consensus view are criticizing one scientist who promotes a fringe view; we should reflect the asymmetry in this article. There are many single-sentence summations (not direct quotes) of Wade's letter that I would support including. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll just add to this that Wade is not a scientist. He's a journalist. And he now writes for blacklisted publications like the NY Post. Generalrelative (talk) 19:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

At this point, there doesn't appear to be a consensus to include the attack in the absence of his defense, which calls for both to be removed. John2510 (talk) 19:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

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