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Talk:Elazar Shach

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Ideologue and Zealot

These people are NOT described in their Misplaced Pages summaries as ideologues and zealots: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Hassan Nasrallah, Osama Bin Laden, Louis Farrakhan.

Apparently, these biased, hateful words are reserved by Jewish Misplaced Pages editors to use against learned rabbis only. I removed them and they were replaced. I removed them again. This is not the encyclopedia style that is supposed to be maintained here! MosheEmes (talk) 00:35, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, the editor who replaced those words claimed that they were "sourced" (from a Haaretz article, which is a newspaper generally unsympathetic to Haredim). I can't find the original online but I reworded it to sound more neutral and kept the source reference. I see no problem with that. MosheEmes (talk) 00:38, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right, MosheEmes. WP:LABEL, part of the Manual of Style, says that "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. In some cases, in-text attribution might be a better option." If it is necessary to use the words "ideologue" and "zealot"—and I don't believe it is—we should say something like "Haaretz described Shach as an ideologue and zealot". — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 03:42, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. I think this is another case of censoring Misplaced Pages (the first being when Shlomo Sand was not called "controversial", despite multiple reliable sources saying precisely that). The strange thing is that some editors prefer removing factually correct, neutrally worded, relevant and reliably sourced information from articles, and there is no outcry. Well, at least I want to register my strong disagreement with this approach. I think the words "zealot" and "ideologue" must stay. Debresser (talk) 05:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
To counter the argument as though the text should use a qualifier like "has been described as". First of all, I can live with that, by way of compromise. But actually, this is not necessary, according to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. If the source is reliable, then on Misplaced Pages we do not have to use such qualifiers. The opposite would lead to ridiculous situations, where every statement would need to be qualified in such a way. Debresser (talk) 05:14, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I'd also ask MosheEmes to not compare the rabbi to terrorists, as that makes the argument emotional instead of rationale.
Another form of compromise I could live with is have a more moderate sentence in the lead, and move the present sentence to the Political life section. Debresser (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
Debresser, the sentence in question was lifted word-for-word from the Haaretz article. As I see it, we have three choices: (a) set it off in quotation marks and attribute it, (b) remove it as a copyright violation, or (c) paraphrase it. Until we decide, I've been bold and taken course (a). — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 21:34, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I like Malik's solution. I also think it's an exaggeration to compare this to the Sand case. I would not have made a fuss if the intro simply said Rabbi Shach was controversial. He was. "Ideologue" may be accurate but it has a negative connotation and the same could be said about secular leaders like Golda Meir. Just it won't be said because more people like her. So she's described positively as "strong-willed and straight-talking". "Zealot" is even worse, as if he's going around fomenting revolution or something. MosheEmes (talk) 10:18, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that since it is a direct quotation, it must be ascribed to its source, per Misplaced Pages:Quotations. I repeat my proposal to move this sentence to the Political life section, especially since it is too specific now for the lead. Debresser (talk) 19:11, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
I implemented Debresser's proposal and inserted the sentence where it seemed to make sense in the flow of the political life section. MosheEmes (talk) 01:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Anti-Zionist

Regarding the recent edit war as to whether he was anti-Zionist. I see no reason to say that the fact he was involved in Israeli politics means he can not be anti-Zionist at the same time. Debresser (talk) 00:11, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

He was ambivalent. It's one thing to partake, but to actively promote a party, form a party, proclaim a halachic decision that you must vote, that's practically not anti. Anti would be like Brisk, who don't do those things. Sir Joseph 02:56, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
As I said above, I see no contradiction, practically or theoretically between the two. Debresser (talk) 06:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
This letter might help shed some light on the matter - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33425&pgnum=14 - I think its pretty clear from reading it (especially the second to last paragraph) that he was strongly opposed to a government which does not adhere to Torah law... So does that make him an "anti-Zionist?" 72.229.160.175 (talk) 23:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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This page needs to be cleaned up

There is a lot of irrelevant information that is just copied from one or two hagiography's written about the subject. Apart from the obvious issue of this not being encyclopedic nor being necessarily reliably sourced, it's also a copyright violation which needs to be removed or corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 40.132.190.66 (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

We can paraphrase the source. No need to remove it to avoid copyvio issues. Debresser (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Preface

The current preface reads as follows and has been in place for the best part of seven years:

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Template:Lang-he, Elazar Shach; January 1, 1899 O.S. – November 2, 2001) was a leading Lithuanian-Jewish Haredi rabbi in Bnei Brak, Israel. He also served as one of three co-deans of the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, along with Rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Due to his differences with the Hasidic leadership of the Agudat Yisrael in 1984, he allied with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, with whom he founded the Shas party. Later, in 1988, Shach sharply criticized Ovadia Yosef, saying that, "Sepharadim are not yet ready for leadership positions", and subsequently founded the Degel HaTorah political party representing Lithuanian (non-Hasidic) Ashkenazi Jews in the Israeli Knesset.

I am wondering why my more comprehensive summary, below, of Rabbi Schach's life has been reverted?

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Template:Lang-he) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading Israeli rabbi of the non-Hassidic Lithuanian stream of Haredi Judaism who served as Rosh yeshiva of Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak.

Born in Lithuania, he escaped the impending Holocaust after immigrating to Mandate Palestine where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three co-deans of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored a four-volume Talmud commentary and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews. Held in high esteem among large portions of his constituency, he was able to dominate and impose his will over the non-Hassidic Ashkenazi community, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership. His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish Khomeini". He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against Chabad messianism and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society, his "rabbits and pigs speech" being described as a "pivotal moment in Israeli history".

He was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (Shas in 1984 representing Sepharadim, and Degel Hatorah in 1988 representing Lithuanian Ashkenazim) which won disproportionate state funds for yeshivas and other orthodox institutions. In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that Labour was "anti-Jewish".

Comments, please. Chesdovi (talk) 21:34, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

  1. 'Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001
  2. Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). Skunk spray, burning bins highlight gov't impotence to haredi resistance, Jerusalem Post.
  3. ^ Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). Obituary: Rabbi Eliezer Schach, The Guardian
  4. Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). Opinion | How the Haredi Street Turned Racist and Ultra-nationalist, Haaretz.
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