Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

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Q: Why does the first sentence of the article say the Protocols is fraudulent? Aren't Misplaced Pages articles supposed to be neutral?

A: Misplaced Pages articles are absolutely required to maintain a neutral point of view. It has long been established that this work is fraudulent; its author(s) plagiarized a work of fiction, changing the original, Gentile characters into the secret leaders of a Jewish conspiracy. That plagiarized, fictional material is presented as though it were fact. That constitutes a literary fraud.

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Q: Why not let the reader decide for him- or herself whether the document is fraudulent or not? Doesn't drawing conclusions constitute WP:OR?

A: The article does not draw any conclusions; journalists drew the conclusion in 1921, and numerous scholars have reaffirmed it since then. It is not original research to state that the the Protocols is fraudulent; it is a well-established scholarly fact, as documented and sourced in the article. Numerous similar examples exist throughout Misplaced Pages; for example, the Hitler diaries are demonstrably fake, and the WP article says so—and sources it.

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A: It is difficult to answer why anyone still believes that the Protocols is a real document, other than to say that some people have beliefs that are simply immune to facts (Exhibit A: Holocaust deniers). To those whose minds are made up, it makes no difference that the Protocols have been debunked countless times—or that so much incriminating Holocaust evidence survives that a dozen museums can't hold it all.

Q: But you can't disprove the contention that a bunch of Jews got together sometime in the mid-19th century and plotted a conspiracy, can you?

A: As already stated, the conspiracy issue is not relevant to this article. But to answer your question, if one was told that the Moon is a giant ball of Gouda cheese covered with a foot-thick layer of dirt, it would be their responsibility to prove them.

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Rebutting arguments of validity with an explanatory section

Although the nature of the forgery is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt there are still subsantial numbers of people who believe in the validity of certain arguments presented within the Protocols, regardless of their authenticity, and so it may be desirable to introduce a section for addressing the key arguments found within the Protocols to show that even the arguments themselves, independent of the overall document, lack merit.

This would go a long way to dispelling many of the ancilliary myths that have accumulated over the passage of a century. It would also flesh out the article more and provide a sound basis for further rebuttals. Engineer of Souls (talk) 23:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Engineer of Souls (talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

However, rebuttal is not the purpose of this article. See WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Anyway, the Protocols don't really contain anything that can be glorified as "arguments". Zero 11:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I am not quite sure what you mean by ‘rebuttal is not the purpose of this article’. There clearly are several sections that attempt to do so, for example the section on the Berne Trial features a possible interpretation and counter arguments on the implications of that trial. Perhaps you meant something else? Engineer of Souls (talk) 17:46, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a possible interpretation and counter arguments". What language precisely constitutes a possible interpretation? --jpgordon 00:39, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to present facts according to the best available sources and attributed opinions according to the most qualified commentators. If that serves to dispel non-facts, well and good, but it is not our task (and forbidden by policy) to construct our own arguments for or against anything. Not all articles follow this rule, but they are supposed to. In the case of the Protocols, their nature means it isn't even clear what a "rebuttal" would look like. Personally I think that few people, including some academics who have written about them, have actually read the Protocols. Let me open them at random and quote a typical paragraph. From Protocol No. 24: "Certain members of the seed of David will prepare the kings and their heirs, selecting not by right of heritage but by eminent capacities, inducting them into the most secret mysteries of the political into schemes of government, but providing always that none may come to knowledge of the secrets. The object of this mode of action is that all may know that government cannot be entrusted to those who have not been inducted into the secret places of its art." It makes no sense to ask for a "rebuttal" of this, since it is just barely-comprehensible drivel that someone made up. Zero 02:06, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Since I am new to editing Misplaced Pages and you appear to be experienced I will take your word that is the standard practice. If that is the case then I believe the other sections should be edited to remove the appearances of attempted rebuttals. How should we go about that? Engineer of Souls (talk) 15:43, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Please tell us what you consider to be "appearances of attempted rebuttals". --jpgordon 18:54, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, I had assumed I already replied. Just looking at the final paragraph of the Berne Trial Section: “ Evidence presented at the trial, which strongly influenced later accounts up to the present, was that the Protocols were originally written in French by agents of the Tzarist secret police (the Okhrana). However, this version has been questioned by several modern scholars. Michael Hagemeister discovered that the primary witness Alexandre du Chayla had previously written in support of the blood libel, had received four thousand Swiss francs for his testimony, and was secretly doubted even by the plaintiffs. Charles Ruud and Sergei Stepanov concluded that there is no substantial evidence of Okhrana involvement and strong circumstantial evidence against it.”Engineer of Souls (talk) 05:23, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

We can report claims and rebuttals made by reliable sources. We can't make our own rebuttals. The difference is fundamental to Misplaced Pages policy. Zero 09:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Well of course, the section I am proposing will follow the style of the above. It certainly shouldn’t be a random essay slapped into the middle of the page. There are several existing sources touching on one aspect or another of the arguments presented in the Protocols that could be mentioned. It seems to me reasonable then since there is already a section featuring the claims and rebuttals of the Berne Trial and so on, to have a section likewise for the key arguments. Engineer of Souls (talk) 16:47, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Stephen Knight (author) argued that although the document was a forgery, the narrative was factual. But unless there is a reliable source that analyzes the thesis presented by the Protocols, we cannot present rebuttals. In any case, as the article Conspiracy theory says, "Conspiracy theories resist falsification and are reinforced by circular reasoning: both evidence against the conspiracy and an absence of evidence for it are re-interpreted as evidence of its truth, whereby the conspiracy becomes a matter of faith rather than something that can be proved or disproved." How does one disprove the claim that all political groups other than tsarists are working for the Jews? TFD (talk) 12:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning this author. It is indeed as you say, certain claims are unfalsifisble and therefore can’t be addressed in a satisfactory way. Perhaps even the large majority of claims are like that. Although I haven’t analyzed the entire document, it seems likely there are claims that are falsifiable and can be discussed. Engineer of Souls (talk) 16:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Cannot find claim in Source ?!

Regarding this segment here:

“Identifiable phrases from Joly constitute 4% of the first half of the first edition, and 12% of the second half; later editions, including most translations, have longer quotes from Joly.”

Has Source #22, a google book entry. I read through it and explicitly searched as well but could not find this (neither 4% nor 12%, both numeral or in wording).

Someone please verify. If true, statement should be removed. Lstein83 (talk) 15:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Source is named: De Michelis 2004, p. 8. Lstein83 (talk) 15:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

The percentages are there. I don't find the part after the semicolon. Zero 05:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Herzl and Zionism

"The text, which nowhere advocates for Zionism, resembles a parody of Herzl's ideas". It has to be one or the other; doesn't it? To parody ideas you usually have to present them, even if ironically. --Nngnna (talk) 14:02, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

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