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Talk:Elazar Shach

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Chesdovi (talk | contribs) at 23:58, 23 August 2021 (→Preface). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This page needs to be cleaned up

There is a lot of irrelevant information that is just copied from one or two hagiography's written about the subject. Apart from the obvious issue of this not being encyclopedic nor being necessarily reliably sourced, it's also a copyright violation which needs to be removed or corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 40.132.190.66 (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

We can paraphrase the source. No need to remove it to avoid copyvio issues. Debresser (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Preface

The current preface reads as follows and has been in place for the best part of seven years:

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Template:Lang-he, Elazar Shach; January 1, 1899 O.S. – November 2, 2001) was a leading Lithuanian-Jewish Haredi rabbi in Bnei Brak, Israel. He also served as one of three co-deans of the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, along with Rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Due to his differences with the Hasidic leadership of the Agudat Yisrael in 1984, he allied with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, with whom he founded the Shas party. Later, in 1988, Shach sharply criticized Ovadia Yosef, saying that, "Sepharadim are not yet ready for leadership positions", and subsequently founded the Degel HaTorah political party representing Lithuanian (non-Hasidic) Ashkenazi Jews in the Israeli Knesset.

I am wondering why my more comprehensive summary, below, of Rabbi Schach's life has been reverted?

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Template:Lang-he) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading Israeli rabbi of the non-Hassidic Lithuanian stream of Haredi Judaism who served as Rosh yeshiva of Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak.

Born in Lithuania, he escaped the impending Holocaust after immigrating to Mandate Palestine where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three co-deans of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored a four-volume Talmud commentary and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews. Held in high esteem among large portions of his constituency, he was able to dominate and impose his will over the non-Hassidic Ashkenazi community, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership. His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish Khomeini". He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against Chabad messianism and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society, his "rabbits and pigs speech" being described as a "pivotal moment in Israeli history".

He was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (Shas in 1984 representing Sepharadim, and Degel Hatorah in 1988 representing Lithuanian Ashkenazim) which won disproportionate state funds for yeshivas and other orthodox institutions. In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that Labour was "anti-Jewish".

Comments, please. Chesdovi (talk) 21:34, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

There would be multiple issues with your proposed rewrite, so I would advise against it. Just some of the problems are the obvious peacock terms, the dearth of sources complying with WP:RS - or any sources at all (obituaries and hagiographies aren't reliable). You are correct in that the lead has been more or less unchanged for years, but that is after months of debate and discussion among many editors before reaching consensus. Considering that, I'd imagine that attempts to substantially rewrite this article would be no less controversial than Shach himself. I'd advise reading https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch as well as the part of the manual explaining what the 'lead' is supposed to be.Winchester2313 (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Please indicate the "obvious peacock terms."
  • Please indicate which text needs citation.
  • Please provide wikilink which disqualifies citing obituaries.
  • Please provide wikilink which states that previous debate and discussions among editors precludes any further editing.
  • Considering WP:LEAD states: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies," please indicate why you feel the current lead, which only mentions his role as dean and founder of two political parties, sufficiently covers all aspects of Shach's notability.
      • After the years of constant warring on this page, a version emerged that was the result of consensus. Please Chesdovi stop the war and refrain from wholesale deletions and rewrites without real consensus. If you insist on making substantial changes, may I suggest doing one at a time after discussing with other editors first please. Londoner77 (talk) 22:17, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

No one wants to discuss? Chesdovi (talk)

You, Chesdovi , seem intent on forcing your poorly and largely WP:UNSOURCED revision of a highly controversial page. Discussion should take place and consensus be achieved before revising pages with long histories of debate and final consensus. I might also add that your stealth edits deleting well-sourced information about Shach and his many wars against other rabbis and groups won't make you look particularly honest either. Almost all of Shach's WP:NOTABILITY during his lifetime and beyond was due to his relentless attacks on other Jewish groups and sects. Your attempt to sanitize his history and make him sound like some type of piously inclined Santa Claus is unlikely to succeed - the historical record is simply too great. Instead of faking an attempt at discussion - why not read my and Londoner77's comments above and refrain from starting a needless WP:WAR? I'd also recommend familiarizing yourself with the page history and discussions over the years, so that you don't simply waste time rehashing old arguments. Winchester2313 (talk) 03:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

"I might also add that your stealth edits deleting well-sourced information about Shach and his many wars against other rabbis and groups won't make you look particularly honest either." Please provide evidence. Chesdovi (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Refs

  1. 'Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001
  2. Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). Skunk spray, burning bins highlight gov't impotence to haredi resistance, Jerusalem Post.
  3. ^ Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). Obituary: Rabbi Eliezer Schach, The Guardian
  4. Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). Opinion | How the Haredi Street Turned Racist and Ultra-nationalist, Haaretz.
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