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Talk:Elazar Shach

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This page needs to be cleaned up

There is a lot of irrelevant information that is just copied from one or two hagiography's written about the subject. Apart from the obvious issue of this not being encyclopedic nor being necessarily reliably sourced, it's also a copyright violation which needs to be removed or corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 40.132.190.66 (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

We can paraphrase the source. No need to remove it to avoid copyvio issues. Debresser (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Preface

The current preface reads as follows and has been in place for the best part of seven years:

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Template:Lang-he, Elazar Shach; January 1, 1899 O.S. – November 2, 2001) was a leading Lithuanian-Jewish Haredi rabbi in Bnei Brak, Israel. He also served as one of three co-deans of the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, along with Rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Due to his differences with the Hasidic leadership of the Agudat Yisrael in 1984, he allied with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, with whom he founded the Shas party. Later, in 1988, Shach sharply criticized Ovadia Yosef, saying that, "Sepharadim are not yet ready for leadership positions", and subsequently founded the Degel HaTorah political party representing Lithuanian (non-Hasidic) Ashkenazi Jews in the Israeli Knesset.

I am wondering why my more comprehensive summary, below, of Rabbi Schach's life has been reverted?

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Template:Lang-he) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading Israeli rabbi of the non-Hassidic Lithuanian stream of Haredi Judaism who served as Rosh yeshiva of Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak.

Born in Lithuania, he escaped the impending Holocaust after immigrating to Mandate Palestine where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three co-deans of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored a four-volume Talmud commentary and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews. Held in high esteem among large portions of his constituency, he was able to dominate and impose his will over the non-Hassidic Ashkenazi community, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership. His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish Khomeini". He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against Chabad messianism and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society, his "rabbits and pigs speech" being described as a "pivotal moment in Israeli history".

He was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (Shas in 1984 representing Sepharadim, and Degel Hatorah in 1988 representing Lithuanian Ashkenazim) which won disproportionate state funds for yeshivas and other orthodox institutions. In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that Labour was "anti-Jewish".

Comments, please. Chesdovi (talk) 21:34, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

There would be multiple issues with your proposed rewrite, so I would advise against it. Just some of the problems are the obvious peacock terms, the dearth of sources complying with WP:RS - or any sources at all (obituaries and hagiographies aren't reliable). You are correct in that the lead has been more or less unchanged for years, but that is after months of debate and discussion among many editors before reaching consensus. Considering that, I'd imagine that attempts to substantially rewrite this article would be no less controversial than Shach himself. I'd advise reading https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch as well as the part of the manual explaining what the 'lead' is supposed to be.Winchester2313 (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Please indicate the "obvious peacock terms."
  • Please indicate which text needs citation.
  • Please provide wikilink which disqualifies citing obituaries.
  • Please provide wikilink which states that previous debate and discussions among editors precludes any further editing.
  • Considering WP:LEAD states: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies," please indicate why you feel the current lead, which only mentions his role as dean and founder of two political parties, sufficiently covers all aspects of Shach's notability.
      • After the years of constant warring on this page, a version emerged that was the result of consensus. Please Chesdovi stop the war and refrain from wholesale deletions and rewrites without real consensus. If you insist on making substantial changes, may I suggest doing one at a time after discussing with other editors first please. Londoner77 (talk) 22:17, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

No one wants to discuss? Chesdovi (talk)

You, Chesdovi , seem intent on forcing your poorly and largely WP:UNSOURCED revision of a highly controversial page. Discussion should take place and consensus be achieved before revising pages with long histories of debate and final consensus. I might also add that your stealth edits deleting well-sourced information about Shach and his many wars against other rabbis and groups won't make you look particularly honest either. Almost all of Shach's WP:NOTABILITY during his lifetime and beyond was due to his relentless attacks on other Jewish groups and sects. Your attempt to sanitize his history and make him sound like some type of piously inclined Santa Claus is unlikely to succeed - the historical record is simply too great. Instead of faking an attempt at discussion - why not read my and Londoner77's comments above and refrain from starting a needless WP:WAR? I'd also recommend familiarizing yourself with the page history and discussions over the years, so that you don't simply waste time rehashing old arguments. Winchester2313 (talk) 03:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

"I might also add that your stealth edits deleting well-sourced information about Shach and his many wars against other rabbis and groups won't make you look particularly honest either." Please provide evidence. Chesdovi (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

W1: "Following the controversy"?

"In 1988, Shach accused Adin Steinsaltz of heresy and was later chief among a group of rabbis banning his works. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, however, approved of the Steinsaltz talmud following the controversy."

Winchester2313 (talk · contribs), please explain how you extrapolate from your JTA source that RMF "approved of the Steinsaltz talmud following the controversy." As far as I am aware, RMF issued an endorsement for the original Hebrew version, the controversy began after the death of RMF when the English version appeared. Chesdovi (talk) 00:34, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

W2: Holocoasut

Winchester2313 (talk · contribs), why did you revert my edits to the Holocaust, giving preference to the original:

Shach taught that events like the Holocaust occurred because the sins of the Jewish people accumulated, and they needed to be punished in order to rectify them. He said that, "God kept count of each and every sin, in a running count over hundreds of years, until the count amounted to six million Jews, and that is how the Holocaust occurred. So must a Jew believe, and if a Jew does not completely believe this, he is a heretic, and if we do not accept this as a punishment, then it is as if we don't believe in The Holy One, Blessed be He..."

instead of my expanded version with superior citations:

Shach taught that the Holocaust was a divine punishment for the sins of the Jewish people and for their abandoning of religious observance for the enlightenment. He said "The Holy One Blessed Be He kept score for hundreds of years until it added up to six million Jews." This caused outrage in the secular Israeli media and a robust response from the Lubavitcher Rebbe. In his defence, Haredi MKs said his comments had been misconstrued and were not meant to justify Nazi atrocities. Wishing to prevent deviation from the established order of prayers, he opposed the composition of new prayers to commemorate the victims of the Holocaust. Shach believed that the secularism of Israel society could cause another Holocaust and he once said that if the Education Ministry were to be placed in the hands of Meretz MK Shulamit Aloni, it would result in "over a million Israeli children being forced into apostasy, and that would be worse than what had happened to Jewish children during the Holocaust."

...? Chesdovi (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Refs

W3: Deprivation

Winchester2313 (talk · contribs), why do you deem it inadmissible to describe the suffering Shach experienced during the war years? Why have you removed the following:

During this period he described suffering considerable deprivation, living with inadequate sanitation and being compelled to wear tattered clothing and worn out shoes. He reportedly sequestered himself in an attic for two years not knowing where his parents were.

...? Chesdovi (talk) 00:55, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

  1. 'Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001
  2. Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). Skunk spray, burning bins highlight gov't impotence to haredi resistance, Jerusalem Post.
  3. ^ Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). Obituary: Rabbi Eliezer Schach, The Guardian
  4. Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). Opinion | How the Haredi Street Turned Racist and Ultra-nationalist, Haaretz.
  5. Yated Neeman 29/12/90. Mussar Iru'ay HaTekufah (מוסר אירועי התקופה)(2011) - pg. 36 - http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=52045&st=&pgnum=35
  6. Jerome Mintz (August 19, 1998). "Notes to Page 48-52". Hasidic People. Harvard University Press. p. 377. ISBN 978-0-674-04109-7. Schach has maintained that the Holocaust was the result of God's anger toward the Jews for their failure to abide by the mitzvot and their falling under the spell of Zionism and the enlightenment.
  7. Chaim Miller (2014). Turning Judaism Outward: A Biography of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson the Seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe. Kol Menachem. p. 392. ISBN 978-1-934152-36-2. In December 1990, the Israeli media was outraged after Rabbi Shach had declared the Holocaust as "definitely a punishment. The Holy One Blessed Be He kept score for hundreds of years until it added up to six million Jews." Convinced that G-d has enacted retribution on sinful Jews for violating the Sabbath and eating pork...
  8. Yated Neeman 29/12/90. Mussar Iru'ay HaTekufah (מוסר אירועי התקופה) (2011). pg. 36
  9. Ami Ayalon (December 30, 1993). Middle East Contemporary Survey, Volume Xv: 1991. The Moshe Dayan Center. p. 467. ISBN 978-0-8133-1869-1. One such instance, early in the year, was when 93-year-old Rabbi Eliezer Schach, spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-Orthodox "haredi" community, declared that the Holocaust had occurred only because Jews had failed to adhere to the commandments of the Torah, and predicted that if Israel's Jews, under their secular leadership, were to persist in ignoring the dictates of the Bible, a further holocaust was likely to befall them. This statement, aroused an uproar of protest among the secular community. Labor MK Shevah Weiss, a Holocaust survivor, accused Schach of suggesting that Hitler and his Nazi followers, who had so brutally slaughtered the Jewish people, had acted as emissaries of the Almighty. During the bitter parliamentary debate which ensued, Haredi MKs defended the rabbi's statement by claiming that by virtue of its ignorance, the secular community had incorrectly interpreted their leader's statement, which had only sought to explain that Judaism provides both reward and punishment. Was it even conceivable, asked Rabbi Schach's defenders, that, having lost his own family in the Holocaust, he would justify the Nazis' deeds?
  10. Arye Edrei (2007). "Holocaust Memorial". In Doron Mendels (ed.). On Memory: An Interdisciplinary Approach. Peter Lang. p. 51. ISBN 978-3-03911-064-3. Rabbi Shach also gave explicit expression to this view in strongly opposing the recitation of elegies for the Holocaust on the ninth of Av: "This constitutes a breaking of boundaries and provides a precedent for those who wish to restructure and reform to utilize for justifying further reforms.
  11. David Landau (1993). Piety and Power: The World of Jewish Fundamentalism. Secker & Warburg. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-436-24156-7. It was in this context that Rabbi Shach fired off one of his controversial broadsides in December 1990: "Another Holocaust could befall us tomorrow," he warned, because of the secularism of Israel society. "Remember what an old Jew is telling you. God is patient. But he keeps a tally. And one day his patience runs out, as it ran out then, when six million died."
  12. Mordecai Richler (1994). This Year in Jerusalem. Chatto & Windus. p. 73. ISBN 978-0-7011-6272-6. Ms. Aloni's assumption of that portfolio, said Rabbi Schach, would result in over a million Israeli children being forced into apostasy, and that was worse than what had happened to Jewish children during the Holocaust.
  13. Englander, Yakir Yacov (19 Aug 2015). "The "Jewish Knight" of Slobodka honor culture and the image of the body in an Ultra-Orthodox Jewish context". Religion. 46 2016 (2). Taylor and Francis: 186–208. My shoes were too small for my feet, and my toes protruded from them; I had no towels for washing; my hair, uncut for a whole year and a half, stuck together in long strands, absent any norm of human hygiene. My trousers were torn, and the scrapes on my legs were exposed, so that I was obliged to reverse the trousers, to make the rip less obvious, and to wear them like that
  14. Kamenetzky, Mordechai (February 2002). "A Biographical Appreiciation" (PDF). The Jewish Observer. XXXV (2) (February 2002): 6–15. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |1= and |2= (help)
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