Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Springee (talk | contribs) at 22:52, 28 August 2021 (→BLP CAT concerns). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ann Coulter article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23Auto-archiving period: 3 months

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kayla.kingston (article contribs). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Connecticut High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Connecticut, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Connecticut on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConnecticutWikipedia:WikiProject ConnecticutTemplate:WikiProject ConnecticutConnecticut High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WikiProject Intelligent design Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Journalism This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Conservatism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Women writers High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women writers on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: September 4 to 10, 2016 (3rd)

Template:Vital article

Archives

Index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14 Archive 15 Archive 16 Archive 17 Archive 18 Archive 19 Archive 20 Archive 21 Archive 22 Archive 23

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Request for a change to the article

I am requesting that the use of far-right be changed to conservative or right--leaning. Far-right implies that she is a fascist, or a nazi, etc.. I understand that this issue has come up often, but if so many people have complained, what do you think that means? Ugla'a (talk) 17:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Blatant leftist bias

Any reason Ms. Coulter is described as "far-right", while the articles for Rachel Maddow, Keith Olberman, Don Lemon, etc, etc, etc, etc don't describe them as "far-left"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.143.34.253 (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Anne Coulter states Kyle Rittenhouse for President of the United States.

Anne Coulter supports <blp violation> (Kyle Rittenhouse) and would like him to be president. Mmm123n (talk) 14:07, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

The edit was rightly removed as it had no citations and the claims being made were clear BLP violations against Coulter and Rittenhouse. As a minor point it failed to mention Coulter's comment was a tweet reply and more a comment of support vs clear statement of her intent. More importantly, Mmm123n's edit stated Coulter supported a "white supremicist" and "serial killer" for president. That sort of implication needs clear RS which neither the WP nor this source support.] Second, it makes accusations against Rittenhouse, who is not a public figure, that are both serious and again unsubstantiated. That is why the post from a novice user was rightly removed. You restored it and clearly saw at least some of the issues as you removed some text here ]. I've removed additional BLP violations as part of this edit. Springee (talk) 15:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• I've removed the Rittenhouse controversy material from the article. People like Coulter make many provocative comments. Their BLP should not turn into a laundry list of every thing they said that caused a stir among the various talking heads in the media. Additionally, this is an extremely RECENT event so we have no way of knowing if this how this will pan out in the end. Treating this with the same WEIGHT as other controversies is simply not DUE at this time and likely not due in the future. Springee (talk) 15:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I added this to controversies, but I do understand it being a very recent event. It will likely deserve at least a line at some point. I tried to add balance in my edit, at the very least, and did not reference Rittenhouse as a serial killer or white supremacist. One, Rittenhouse is a spree killer by definition; and two, although information proves that he was a strong police supporter and militia supporter, there has not been official information alleging white supremacy yet. Coulter's page overall needs some editing and rearranging though, so hopefully this will draw attention. PickleG13 (talk) 15:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, the BLP comments above relate only to what Mmm123n said. I didn't see anything in your edit that violated BLP rules for Coulter or Rittenhouse. My concern is only that the comment is RECENT. We run into this on a number of BLP pages. We have people who say things that get reactions from others. That Coulter says things that cause angry reactions in the media/talk shows etc is worthy of inclusion in her BLP. Each individual example/instance that supports the general idea that she says provocative things isn't DUE. A decent way to structure this sort of content in the article might be "Coutler's public comments have frequently received criticism by other commentators. Examples include X, Y, Z" We wouldn't do a subtopic on each X, Y and Z. Springee (talk) 15:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Springee about the issue of WP:DUE weight, Seems a lot of pages with political figures have problems with WP:RECENTISM , personally I find the way to deal with recentism is to give the criteria a WP:10YT. This is an encyclopedia after all, not a gossip blog. EliteArcher88 (talk) 22:09, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Far-right claim

Only two of the four sources provided actually label her far-right. The other two use the words alt-right, but do not label her as such. The two misused sources should be removed. Whoever entered them is probably an idiot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:714:EE00:39FA:E04F:6DF2:BB88 (talk) 17:30, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I found a reference to Coulter as 'far right' in all of the articles that I checked. Looking more closely at her views in the article, it's very clear that she's a far right personality. Far-right and alt-right aren't mutually exclusive. -- IronMaidenRocks (talk) 13:23, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I believe that the first insertion was by Kiwifist, here. Looking at earlier threads about this on this talk page, I see that there have been objections by Helloagain04 and Ugla'a and 93.238.129.115. The first cite is to Washington Post's "The Fix" which is a blog according to this and this. The second cite is to "Paste" (whatever that is), which doesn't say she is far right, but says "far-right politics is the only arena where Coulter really does know what she’s talking about". The third cite is to "Times of Israel" which indeed says she is a "far-right pundit". The fourth cite is to a headline in "The Guardian". I'd call "far-right" poorly sourced, but won't remove. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm assuming that's Paste (magazine), which is a reliable source for pop culture, but the last RfC on WP:RSN was closed as no consensus as to how reliable it is for politics. Better sources exist. Also, Chris Cillizza is a reputable reporter (he's also employed by CNN)... Likewise with Amber Phillips. She's an analyst. You'll notice that those aren't blogs: they're labeled as "Analysis", which actually means it's in the news stable, and not considered opinion. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 09:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

I would agree we don't have sufficient sourcing to use "far-right" as that can be seen as a controversial label. Are editors OK with changing it to "right-wing" or "conservative" and dropping the associated citations out of the lead? Springee (talk) 15:20, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

No. If these sources are insufficient, then more sources can obviously be found. By that, I mean that it's obvious that she's regularly characterized this way in media, unless you actually think she's not a figure regularly associated with the far-right? These sources obviously exist; a good-faith effort should be made to see ascertain whether this is a label applied with any regularity, rather than simply throwing in the towel because it's "controversial". In just a cursory search, I found over two dozen such sources. Not counting at least half a dozen more examples from the Guardian alone. And about two dozen which associate her with the far-right, but don't label her as such exclusively (usually opting for "contoversial"; most of these are related to the Berkeley event of alt-right speakers). A few of them: Forbes, Associated Press (News), another Guardian one (there are several, as I said), The Jerusalem Post , LA Times, Business Insider.

I think that's sufficient (ten total?), especially with the existing Guardian and Times of Israel. There's more too, if that's necessary. Also, as I said in my response to Peter Gulutzman, both of those writers he named for "The Fix" actually write news analysis; they're not opinion columnists. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 09:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Far-right is a controversial label and shouldn't be applied in the opening sentence or in wiki voice. Please see this current VP discussion ]. We can't show this is a universal description nor is it a objective description. Thanks to key word searches we can find examples of sources that use the term but consider how many articles mention Coulter vs how many justify the term. It's better to describe her positions and actions vs force the description into the lead. This is especially true since the body doesn't say why this label is used in the lead. Springee (talk) 12:02, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

It's nearly impossible to ask that all our sources be in agreement at all times in their characterization of a subject. Asking that any descriptors be "universal" and "objective" is far too high of a bar that's rarely achievable. It's always contentious. And arguments of special pleading are always used to try to remove generally-held descriptions of the ideology professed by BLP subjects. I also disagree that "far right" is overly controversial; if we were claiming she were alt-right, that would be a different matter. But "far right" is not some bogeyman or insult, but something with a generally understood meaning that's used not only in commentary and journalism, but in academia as well.

I reiterate that I find it hard to believe someone doesn't think Ann Coulter is far-right and/or regularly says things that would be classed as talking points of the far right. Assuming you read her work and see her on television, which I assume most of us have, a great deal of what she says is little different from the sorts of things that Milo Yiannopoulos is famous for saying. It's what she's primarily known for, and arguably a large part of what makes her notable. She doesn't typically comment on issues of traditional conservatism or classical liberalism, but is known for saying provocative things about culture, religion, race, and ethnicity that fall outside the expectations of typical conservative commentary. As a few of the sources I linked essentially state (though I'm paraphrasing), she's seen as one of the "faces regularly associated with the far right". It would be contrary to NPOV actually omit that characterization. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

We know this is your view -- and we also know that others take a different view. With sufficient sources ("sufficient" as judged via the discussion/consensus here) it can/will happen. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:55, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

IMPARTIAL and BLP are both policy and apply to this article. Springee (talk) 12:58, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Come to think of it, reading this over, I'm a little concerned that there is a bit of a case of moving goalposts here. Your initial argument in the proposal to change the label to "conservative" or "right-wing" is that the sourcing was inadequate/too weak to support the prior label. Now that the sourcing is adequate, you're opposed based on the fact that you don't like the label "far-right" being applied, at all, on principle? Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 14:59, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

There is a difference between "conservative" or "right-wing" and "far-right". How do we define where the line is between right and far-right? It's a subjective determination and one that is often controversial. I suspect Coulter would self identify as conservative/right but would she agree with far-right? Again, consider the current VP discussion regarding the use of labels in lead sentences (or the lead in general). Springee (talk) 17:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

When I wrote that The Fix "is a blog according to this and this", the references that I supplied were merely to show that The Fix is a blog. Google "The Washington Post's political analysis blog" and you'll find plenty more saying that is what The Fix is. The reply from Symmachus Auxiliarus is not relevant. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:10, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

I did indeed misspeak there. You're correct, it is a political blog, giving analysis and commentary on news from other sources. It also seems to predate Cillizza's work as a correspondent, or as an analyst at CNN. I agree that it should classed be a second-tier source, as its primary purpose is obviously commentary (and thus, entertainment). I wouldn't use it for this purpose any more than I would the Paste reference. Regardless, the rest of the sourcing that I provided is more than adequate. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 14:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/sethcohen/2020/07/10/ann-coulter-endorsed-a-democrat/
2. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-rush-limbaugh-ann-coulter-immigration-eugene-robinson-35a0c976eacb4100a3bb2539d3247b38
3. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/21/ann-coulter-berkeley-protesters-arrests
4. https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/ann-coulter-slams-asians-jews-who-think-theyre-black-re-immigration-580104
5. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-berkeley-free-speech-week-20170914-story.html
6. https://www.businessinsider.com/who-is-katie-hopkins-donald-trump-retweets-migrants-cockroaches-2019-7

BLP CAT concerns

The following CATs are a concern per wp:CATDEF, "Category:Opposition to Islam in the United States", "Category:American conspiracy theorists". To use a category on a BLP it needs to be something we could say in wiki voice. The second one is easy as we are dealing with a single conspiracy theory. That is not sufficient to call Coulter a conspiracy theorist in wiki voice and thus is not enough to include the category. The same is true of the Islam tag. It seems her comments, per this article, are primarily related to Islamic terrorism and again, per CATDEF, this must be a central aspect not just one of many. That she is a conservative commentator is a central aspect. Her views on Islam are not. @Grayfell and EricSDA: as recently involved. Springee (talk) 22:03, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

These categories are supported by content in the article. So, if this about BLP, the burden would be on you would first have to explain why this reliably-sourced content, which is already in the article, is either not in fact reliably-sourced or doesn't belong for some other reason. If you want to discuss whether or not these categories are proportionate, do so on their own merits. Source pretty clearly and consistently support this, to to invoke BLP preemptively is either ignoring sources or is using WP:CRYBLP to escalate a relatively minor content issue. Since that would be be tendentious, I will assume you have some specific, good faith reason to challenge this content. If this is indeed strictly about categories, please explain this in a less inflammatory manner. Grayfell (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this is inflammatory. To be clear, this is specifically about the inclusion of the categories, not the article content. Do any of the sources actually say she is a conspiracy theorist? Same with the other cat (does that cat even have a clear definition?). If no sources say she is, then we certainly cannot in wiki voice. Remember, the standard for a category is at minimum we have to be able to say it in wiki voice (even if we don't specifically say it). Additionally, since this is a BLP contentious claims need consensus to include. This is currently a local, no consensus. Consensus aside these are simply aspects of the person, not a defining characteristic hence why the cats violate BLP. Springee (talk) 23:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Absent follow up I've removed the conspiracy theorist CAT as violating CATDEF and NOCON to keep (contentious claim about a BLP subject). I think the same applies to the Islam CAT but most of this discussion was related to the conspiracy CAT. Springee (talk) 19:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

The article already states this, per multiple reliable sources: Coulter is an advocate of the white genocide conspiracy theory. Your stated inability to understand why this is inflammatory is also irrelevant. BLP is not served by being over-cautious, and neutrality is harmed when we preemptively exclude content because it might be unflattering. Other than this, I still have not seen anything close to a compelling argument for why this is a BLP issues. Grayfell (talk) 19:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, it is trivially easy to find reliable sources which describe Coulter as a conspiracy theorist (which should be obvious to anyone with even a passing familiarity with her work)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/26/pipe-bombs-false-flag-claims-ann-coulter-rush-limbaugh-conspiracy-theories

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/06/18/migrant-kids-are-child-actors-ann-coulter-says-on-fox-news-telling-trump-not-to-be-fooled/

etc.

Further, many, many sources will describe something as a conspiracy theory and then mention Coulter as a proponent of it. Any ambiguity here is only superficial. These sources are saying that she is known as a conspiracy theorists as the term is commonly understand. Expecting a juicy pull-quote for every statement is unrealistic, among other problems. Grayfell (talk) 19:40, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Much of what your claim supports the tag isn't in the article and the limited information in the article doesn't satisfy DEFCAT. Per NOCON the tag needs to be removed until there is consensus to include. That some key word searched sources say she promotes a conspiracy theory is not sufficient to call her a conspiracy theorist in wiki voice. Per BLP standards that must be a high bar. Springee (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Grayfell I looked over your sources. Neither are sufficient to describe Coulter as a conspiracy theorist in wiki-voice. That is the standard needed to apply a contentious tag to a BLP article. None of your sources say she is a conspiracy theorist. Per CATDEF, "A central concept used in categorizing articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people)" Sources consistently define Coulter as a pundant/commentator and as a conservative. They do not consistently define her as a conspiracy theorist. In fact I don't think we have a single source that says she is a conspiracy theorist. As such the tag violates CATDEF as well as BLP. Springee (talk) 22:52, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

References

1. "Trump Wants Pompeo to Study 'Killing of Farmers' in South Africa". The New York Times. August 23, 2018. Archived from the original on 2018-08-27. Retrieved 2019-01-29.
2. "The creeping spectre of "white genocide"". The Outline. May 9, 2017. Archived from the original on 2018-10-11. Retrieved 2019-01-29.
3. "Why Ann Coulter is dead wrong about immigration in America". The Daily Dot. May 28, 2015. Archived from the original on 2019-01-15. Retrieved 2019-01-29.

• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Mid-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class Connecticut articles
• High-importance Connecticut articles
• WikiProject Connecticut articles
• B-Class Journalism articles
• Unknown-importance Journalism articles
• WikiProject Journalism articles
• B-Class Conservatism articles
• Mid-importance Conservatism articles
• WikiProject Conservatism articles
• B-Class Women writers articles
• High-importance Women writers articles
• WikiProject Women articles
• WikiProject Women writers articles
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists
• Pages in the Misplaced Pages Top 25 Report